Atlas Shrugged

marienbad

Permabear wrote: »

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Yeah ,cop out again. So no names then ?

Turtwig

Permabear wrote: »

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In fairness you could find agreeable quotes by just about any bigot or extremist nutjob. It's why the Dalai Lama is so popular in Europe. Says such nice agreeable things.

Everyone is entitled to good faith though and unless those dissing Wales can produce evidence of him being a nefarious villian then we assume otherwise. Quotes aren't really ever going to prove anything. It's too easy in this day and age to pick quotes that don't even reflect the personality of a person.

magicbastarder

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm not sure where i accused him of any of those things. You appear to be implying i said things about him which i didn't even come close to saying.

Karl Stein

Permabear wrote: »

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Creationism in the A&A forum.

Cool.

Brian Shanahan

magicbastarder wrote: »

I'm not sure where i accused him of any of those things. You appear to be implying i said things about him which i didn't even come close to saying.

No permabear is deliberately misattributing the well documented fact that Ayn Rand was a sociopath who developed her "philosophy" based on her appreciation of a serial-killer she had the hots for to Jimmy Wales.

jank

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

No permabear is deliberately misattributing the well documented fact that Ayn Rand was a sociopath who developed her "philosophy" based on her appreciation of a serial-killer she had the hots for to Jimmy Wales.

Is this supposed to be a serious comment?
Are you the same poster who said that Hitler was a practicing and devout Catholic and that Stalin right before his death turned from Atheist to a believer....
I think you are trying too hard mate.

PopePalpatine

Out of curiosity Brian, which serial killer are you talking about?

Permabear

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Permabear

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Turtwig

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

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Permabear wrote: »

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Mod: Can we cut out these petty pillow fights.

PopePalpatine

Permabear wrote: »

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Howard Roark, the hero of "The Fountainhead", is described by Rand as being "born without the ability to consider others". Permabear, you've trudged through that book - did that characteristic hinder or help Roark in the story?

Valmont

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Howard Roark, the hero of "The Fountainhead", is described by Rand as being "born without the ability to consider others". Permabear, you've trudged through that book - did that characteristic hinder or help Roark in the story?

It definitely helps him - but I would be quick to point out that it doesn't necessarily follow that he is therefore willing to hurt others in pursuit of his own goals or that he is anti-social (if you read the book you would see that). It simply means that his only concern and responsibility is his own life and values.

Roark helps countless people throughout the novel by designing wonderful structures for them - the beauty of objectivism in this respect is that people can and do help each other by looking out for number one above all else. In a capitalist society getting rich or succeeding is directly proportional to the value you can provide to society. The only other way to enrich oneself is the political way: coercion.

Permabear

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Brian Shanahan

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Out of curiosity Brian, which serial killer are you talking about?

William Edward Hickman. She said of him:

Ayn Rand wrote:

the amazing picture of a man with no regard whatsoever for all that a society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. A man who really stands alone, in action and in soul. … Other people do not exist for him, and he does not see why they should
"a brilliant, unusual, exceptional boy," shimmering with "immense, explicit egotism."
no regard whatsoever for all that society holds sacred, and with a consciousness all his own. He has the true, innate psychology of a Superman. He can never realize and feel ‘other people.’

Quotes from here and here.

While the book she was writing which featured a thinly velied Hickman as hero never got finished, it is clear from the rest of her writings (the sentence "There is one word that is forbidden in this valley: the word 'give.'" is the clearest and most succinct formulation of what is laughably called her philosophy, and also a clear indication of sociopathic tendencies) that she considered Hickman and those like him to be the true paragons of society.

PopePalpatine

If someone could answer this, that would be great.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

What did you find so "nauseating" about it?

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I don't believe a totally free market is best for humanity. Permabear, you said that reason would become more important in a libertarian society, as you can't use force to make your point. Do you foresee a situation where someone - let's just say, an oil tycoon - has a vested interest in not listening to reason as it will hurt their bottom line?

Permabear

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marienbad

Permabear wrote: »

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Have you any examples where this has happened anywhere, ever ?

MRnotlob606

She's like a demi-goddess among conservative politicians

Permabear

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Brian Shanahan

marienbad wrote: »

Have you any examples where this has happened anywhere, ever ?

Well considering that quoting von Mises is the economic equivalent of Godwin (in that quoting him is an automatic loss, due to his penchant for making **** up), that all evidence conclusively prooves the causitive correlation between a lack of state intervention and overweening power of the rich, and that those who are behind libarianism (which Ranisnd hated worse than communism, due to their refusal to acknowledge her as guru.and supreme leader of their movement) and her rehabilitation are the kind of ultra-rich tax evading conmen that permabear insists would have no power in his objectivist paradise.

Brian Shanahan

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

(in that quoting him is an automatic loss, due to his penchant for making **** up),

that all evidence conclusively prooves the causitive correlation between a lack of state intervention and overweening power of the rich

I see

Brian Shanahan

bluewolf wrote: »

I see

Thankyou for finally listening to the evidence and agreeing with the reality based position.

It took you long enough.

Turtwig

What in the heck is a reality based position?

Wibbs

Permabear wrote: »

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Without state controls he wouldn't have to lobby. It would save him a fortune. Without state controls who would legislate for the environment for example? Who is going to sue him/his company if the company had a massive oil spill? "Ordinary people"? They quite simply wouldn't have the cash or the time. The law itself? Fine if anti pollution legislation exists, but would it exist if you had no state oversight in the first place?

marienbad wrote:

Have you any examples where this has happened anywhere, ever ?

That's a bit of an issue with Libertarianism, there's never been a state that was Libertarian to nearly the degree most Libertarians seem to strive for. The usual examples trotted out don't stand up to much scrutiny. Hong Kong a good example. Sometimes held up as a Libertarian type culture, yet government has quite the influence on the place. Never mind that it's an island, a city state, it's also a protectorate, first of the British and now the Chinese, that was and is beautifully located in the region.

PopePalpatine

Wibbs wrote: »

Hong Kong a good example. Sometimes held up as a Libertarian type culture, yet government has quite the influence on the place. Never mind that it's an island, a city state, it's also a protectorate, first of the British and now the Chinese, that was and is beautifully located in the region.

The first time I had an idea of how overbearing the Hong Kong government can be is when I found out car modification is banned there, unless it's registered as a business vehicle.

Brian Shanahan

Turtwig wrote: »

What in the heck is a reality based position?

One that looks at what is happening in the world and tries to base their theories off what is actually happening. The Austrian school of economics (founded by von Mises and von Hayek, currently residing in Chicago) is most definitely not a reality based position, especially when you consider that it reduces the whole glorious multitude of humanity down to a lumpen mass of automatons which makes every choice based on perfect knowledge and total logic. This is the economic system of choice of such reality denying persons as your average Randoid.

Permabear

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Valmont

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The Austrian school of economics (founded by von Mises and von Hayek, currently residing in Chicago) is most definitely not a reality based position, especially when you consider that it reduces the whole glorious multitude of humanity down to a lumpen mass of automatons which makes every choice based on perfect knowledge and total logic.

You're thinking of the Chicago school - the Austrians don't accept the concept of perfect knowledge as a valid economic precept. And before you try to claim they are one and the same, please read austrian economist Murray Rothbard's extensive critique of Milton Friedman and the Chicago school here.

Valmont

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

...that all evidence conclusively prooves the causitive correlation between a lack of state intervention and overweening power of the rich, and that those who are behind libarianism (which Ranisnd hated worse than communism, due to their refusal to acknowledge her as guru.and supreme leader of their movement)

Don't you mean librarianism, the philosophy favouring the self-determination of librarians? I'm guessing Ranisnd was one of the foremost proponents. I for one believe that librarians should be regulated and subject to legislation. If they aren't coerced into organising their books correctly, who will do it? The 'ordinary' browsers? Sure they wouldn't be bothered! Nobody would even know how to read if these evil librarians took over!

Permabear

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