DOMESTIC WIND TURBINES

cathy01

I would love a domestic one.I heard the SEI are to be given grants for them next year.
Hope there small.Anyone have any info?

AckwelFoley

cathy01 wrote: »

I would love a domestic one.I heard the SEI are to be given grants for them next year.
Hope there small.Anyone have any info?

As far as i know, at the moment they are very cost restrictive and the more economical ones pricewise are only used to heat the element in your copper tank..

bladespin

snyper wrote: »

As far as i know, at the moment they are very cost restrictive and the more economical ones pricewise are only used to heat the element in your copper tank..

Actually I would argue the exact opposite, using the power generated from a turbine to heat water is wasteful, it's worth more just sold back to the grid.

Generally a small domestic turbine will fall into the sub €20k bracket, most have a payback period of over 10 years (despite what some snake oil salesmen will tell you).
All turbines depend on the site's wind throughput for their performance so if your site is low to mid speed then a trubine will struggle to justify itself, if you have a high windspeed site you'd be foolish not to have one as it could make a significant return on investment for it's owner.

The SEI do not offer any grants for wind turbines (shame), the main incentive is the 19c unit tarriff offered on production sold back to the grid.

heinbloed

To avoid being ripped-off get the harvest AND the amortisation guaranteed. No written guarantee- no buy.

AckwelFoley

bladespin wrote: »

Actually I would argue the exact opposite, using the power generated from a turbine to heat water is wasteful, it's worth more just sold back to the grid.

Generally a small domestic turbine will fall into the sub €20k bracket, most have a payback period of over 10 years (despite what some snake oil salesmen will tell you).
All turbines depend on the site's wind throughput for their performance so if your site is low to mid speed then a trubine will struggle to justify itself, if you have a high windspeed site you'd be foolish not to have one as it could make a significant return on investment for it's owner.

The SEI do not offer any grants for wind turbines (shame), the main incentive is the 19c unit tarriff offered on production sold back to the grid.

i said cost restrictive and you say 20k. Most people dont have 20k.

Anthow, how it works in countries like holland is that you pay more for electricity and get dam all for the electricity you send out so, tbh its still not worth it in my eyes...yet

gears

heinbloed wrote: »

To avoid being ripped-off get the harvest AND the amortisation guaranteed. No written guarantee- no buy.

I'd have to argue this point as I don't know how any supplier could guarantee the weather... An open an honest discussion on average wind speeds and turbine output all clearly explained in lay-mans language would be more beneficial.

cathy01

well,Im beside the sea, and up in a height so Id be hopefull or generating enought electricty to run my home.?Might be wishful thinking!!Thanks for the feedback,Cathy

bladespin

snyper wrote: »

i said cost restrictive and you say 20k. Most people dont have 20k.

Anthow, how it works in countries like holland is that you pay more for electricity and get dam all for the electricity you send out so, tbh its still not worth it in my eyes...yet

I said sub €20k, AFIK small turbine prices range from about €800 for a reasonable 1kw unit to €50k for a top of the range 15kw monster.

A 2.5-3kw machine should come in around €10-14k, that would zero the average bill on a medium to good site (the site is everything), so they definately make sense.
Here you pay 16.5c per unit and get paid 19c for each unit you sell back to the ESB subject to their terms (they're quite reasonable).

cathy01 wrote: »

well,Im beside the sea, and up in a height so Id be hopefull or generating enought electricty to run my home.?Might be wishful thinking!!Thanks for the feedback,Cathy

Sounds like you could have a good site, are there any obstacles in the direction of the prevailing winds?

How much electricity do you use on average? Consumption can vary dramatically from house to house but an average is around 5500 units per year.

On a open site with an average annual windspeed of 6m.sec you should clear that with a 3kw turbine.

cathy01

Thanks, my local place said there is a plan for the esi to give a grant next year.
My electricy bill would increase if I get the new ele rads , not storage heaters, the ones from SUKA.They look good, thanks again for the advice.:D
Cathy

bladespin

cathy01 wrote: »

Thanks, my local place said there is a plan for the esi to give a grant next year.
My electricy bill would increase if I get the new ele rads , not storage heaters, the ones from SUKA.They look good, thanks again for the advice.:D
Cathy

Hi Cathy, I'd contact SEI first, I've heard nothing of a proposed grant (though it would be welcome), it hasn't been mentioned to manufacturers so I'd question the accruracy of your local supplier's info.

cathy01

have a look at this site.I was going to get the rads but seen this.

http://www.sukaelectroheating.co.uk/pages/wind-power.html

gears

If youre looking to link some electric heating rads to the turbine I know of one company who sell a marble heater who have done at least one similar project that I know of. PM sent.

cathy01

Thanks,Ill have a read,cathy

bladespin

<SNIP>


Most site reports cost around €200 so it's not that much cheaper, TBH power predictors aren't much use, they give a very basic idea, average windspeeds on a site can vary by up to 20% year on year. That site seems quite expensive, nromally about €140 plus vat.
You'd need to run it for at least 3 yeras to gather the data most professionals use.

caesarthechimp

cathy01 wrote: »

have a look at this site.I was going to get the rads but seen this.

http://www.sukaelectroheating.co.uk/pages/wind-power.html

Don't be fooled by these. 1kw of electricity gives 1KW of heat in any electric heater. These are semi storage heaters with a ceramic heat sink inside. As was mentioned it is more economical to sell surplus electricity to the grid at the moment than to use it for heating at daytime tariffs. If you want to use your own electrical power for heating, you can use a thermal store; a hot water buffer tank connected to radiators to store more heat than these heaters can.
I have seen these installed in a house with neither a wind turbine nor a night rate meter. The owner originally thought from the marketing info they would be more efficient than ordinary electric heaters, but has been plagued with astronomical ESB bills.

Poor Uncle Tom

bladespin wrote: »

......and get paid 19c for each unit you sell back to the ESB subject to their terms....

I think you'll find that is 9c per unit.

bladespin

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I think you'll find that is 9c per unit.

Actually it is 19c per unit (limited to 3000units).

That's 9c standard wholesale frice plus a 10 bonus.

knipex

bladespin wrote: »

A 2.5-3kw machine should come in around €10-14k, that would zero the average bill on a medium to good site (the site is everything), so they definately make sense.
Here you pay 16.5c per unit and get paid 19c for each unit you sell back to the ESB subject to their terms (they're quite reasonable).

2.5 to 3Kw would just about run a kettle.

Assuming a reasonably high load factor of 30% a 3kw turbine would generate about €1,497 in income per annum (based on 19 cents). Or a 9 year payback

a more realistic 15% load factor would generate €748 in income (again based on 19 cents) or an 18 year payback.

The other downside (and its a biggie) is that the more that are connected the the grid the more expensive everyone's electricity will become. Lets face it someone has to pay.

Domestic windturbines are currently a mugs game.

bladespin

knipex wrote: »

2.5 to 3Kw would just about run a kettle.

Assuming a reasonably high load factor of 30% a 3kw turbine would generate about €1,497 in income per annum (based on 19 cents). Or a 9 year payback

a more realistic 15% load factor would generate €748 in income (again based on 19 cents) or an 18 year payback.

The other downside (and its a biggie) is that the more that are connected the the grid the more expensive everyone's electricity will become. Lets face it someone has to pay.

Domestic windturbines are currently a mugs game.

You really don't understand how they work at all.

A 3 kw turbine will power an average household (5500 units per year) once it's on a suitable site.

A kettle uses about 2kw per hour how long do you leave your kettle on the boil continuously?

Turbines work by generating power whenever they can, any power you can use while it's doing so will reduce the amount you're buying from the grid. The turbine will still turn when you're not using any electricity, while you're at work or asleep, this is sold to the ESB and is credited to your account.

What are you calculating your payback periods on? You don't make mention of a purchase price so how it it possible to determine the time it would take to pay for itself???

All turbines will actually reduce electricity costs for us all, ever heard of carbon taxes or peak oil??? ESB prices are only going to rise in the long term.

<SNIP>Mod Edit: Please be civil.

Tabnabs

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with regards to the maintenance and upkeep of a domestic wind turbine unit? I understand this can be prohibitive (one semi state organisation I know got rid of all their wind turbines in favour of solar panels for this reason). Can parts be easily sourced and can the labour be done by the individual?

bladespin

Dyflin wrote: »

I'd be interested to hear from anyone with regards to the maintenance and upkeep of a domestic wind turbine unit? I understand this can be prohibitive (one semi state organisation I know got rid of all their wind turbines in favour of solar panels for this reason). Can parts be easily sourced and can the labour be done by the individual?

Some domestic turbines need to be services every year, some every 5 years and some are pretty much maintenance free (baring visual inspection by the owner).

In general parts are cheap and widely available from electrical factors and hardware suppliers. The majority of maintenance work involves lubricating moving parts and checking cables and connections.

If you're mechanically competant you can do it, I do.

Poor Uncle Tom

knipex wrote: »

....a 9 year payback
....or an 18 year payback.

Please expand on how you arrived at this time frame.

knipex

bladespin wrote: »

You really don't understand how they work at all.

A 3 kw turbine will power an average household (5500 units per year) once it's on a suitable site.

A kettle uses about 2kw per hour how long do you leave your kettle on the boil continuously?

Turbines work by generating power whenever they can, any power you can use while it's doing so will reduce the amount you're buying from the grid. The turbine will still turn when you're not using any electricity, while you're at work or asleep, this is sold to the ESB and is credited to your account.

I think you will find that I under stand turbines quite well.

Power is measured in KW
Energy is measured in KW hours. or Kw\h

A continuous power draw of 1Kw for one hour is 1Kw hour.

The instantaneous power usage of a Kettle varies depending on brand from 1.5kw to 3Kw. The vast majority of those currently sold are around 3Kw. So an electric kettle will draw 3kw but assumign its only on for 5 minutes will only use 0.25 units (or Kw hours) of electricity.

The difference between power an energy is key to any discussion of any kind on electricity.

An modern electric shower will use approx 9kw
A toaster about 3kw
A microwave about 1.5Kw
Fridge freezer 2 to 3Kw (under load but these are intermittent draws)
A tumble drier about 2 to 3Kw.

(the limit of 3Kw is because this is the max load that can be connected to a standard 13 amp plug.)

To demand on a modern house can vary from a couple of hundred watts to 17Kw at any time.

A 3Kw turbine is capable of generating an output of 3Kw under ideal conditions. So if you have a kettle on then you are maxing out the capacity of the turbine.


A 3Kw turbine will under ideal conditions be capable of theoretically generating 26,280 units in a year.

Unfortunately conditions are not ideal all the time to wind turbines are subjected to what is known as a load factor. This is a calculated percentage of how much electricity they will actually generate compared to their installed capacity and is expressed as a percentage.

This load factor is dependant on location.

For a commercial 3MW wind turbine in Ireland load factors vary from 20% to 35% with the majority being between 25% and 30%.

For a domestic wind turbine load factors a much lower (due to their lower height and the smaller blades meaning there is a smaller window of wind conditions in which they can operate)

I have seen figures vary from 17% to as low as 8%

bladespin wrote: »

What are you calculating your payback periods on? You don't make mention of a purchase price so how it it possible to determine the time it would take to pay for itself???

All my figures are based on your post which I quoted in my reply

bladespin wrote: »

All turbines will actually reduce electricity costs for us all, ever heard of carbon taxes or peak oil??? ESB prices are only going to rise in the long term.

Again I am afraid you are mistaken.

Firstly look at it in its simplest form.

The ESB sells you electricity at a cost of 9 cent including all costs associated with transmission etc.

Yet it buys electricity from you at 19cent and then has the cost associated with transmission etc.

Where do you think that extra 10 cent comes from ? Out of fresh air ?

It comes from ESB revenues which means everyone's ESB bill.

Now in a more detailed level.

Domestic wind turbines (even large ones) will generate 3kw, when the wind is blowing at the correct speed. This is completely intermittent and unpredictable. As a result Eirgrid who have to ensure that demand is met cannot include this wind output when calculating the demand for the day. Similarly Oil, gas and coal station (with the exception of OCGT plants) are not designed to vary output. They can be forced to do so but this takes time and vastly reduces their efficiency so they burn more fuel and generate more C02 per MW generated.

The net result is the the supply side cannot vary output to match the variable output of domestic wind turbines.

So in short domestic wind turbines will have no effect on the amount of fuel used or C02 produced.

Or as I put it in my original post domestic wind turbines are a mugs game.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Please expand on how you arrived at this time frame.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

Bearing in mind my post above.

in short

3MW turbine 24 hours a day 365 days a year = 26280 Kw Hours

Using 30% load factor that's 7884 Kw Hours. x 19 cent = €1,497

Using 15% load factor (which is a high estimate and unlikely to be reached in the majority of locations and certainly not in an urban location) 3,942 Kw hours x 19 cents = €748

Assuming a cost of 14k as quoted by Bladespin then

14,000 / 1497 = 9.35 years

14,000 / 748 = 18.71 years.

Not including maintenance, or any additional costs associated with installation etc.

I hope this clarifies things ?

bladespin

knipex wrote: »

Again I am afraid you are mistaken.

Firstly look at it in its simplest form.

The ESB sells you electricity at a cost of 9 cent including all costs associated with transmission etc.

Yet it buys electricity from you at 19cent and then has the cost associated with transmission etc.

Where do you think that extra 10 cent comes from ? Out of fresh air ?

It comes from ESB revenues which means everyone's ESB bill.

Where are you buying electricity at 9c per unit from?

Please show me as it would literally half my bills :P the rest of us mere mortals pay around 16.5c per unit, no wonder you think we're mugs.



The 10c is a bonus payment made by the ESB to customers contributing back to the grid, it is limited to the first 3000kw contributed.

The 10c does indeed come from the air and from the sun, renewable sources are being promoted while traditional fuels are costing them more every year, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out they save when their use of oil drops.

At the moment peak time electricity costs a lot more than 19c and it will continue to rise sharply as the economy recovers (hopefully lol).
Anything that reduced the load on the grid at peak times is helping the ESB to save vast sums of money.


Lastly, you're quite correct about your payback timeframes (I wanted to know what turbine you were basing your figures on - I still would?)

Anyone promising a payback period of less than 10 years is blowing more air than their turbine could handle, a more realistic period for a 3kw machind costing €14k on a 6.5m.sec average site (not very many away form coastal) would be 10-15 years. But then again you will enjoy free electricity for the lifetime of the turbine.

knipex

bladespin wrote: »

The 10c does indeed come from the air and from the sun, renewable sources are being promoted while traditional fuels are costing them more every year, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out they save when their use of oil drops.

Im sorry. What part did you not understand ?

How exactly do wind turbines save oil ? (ignoring the fact that oil only actually used to generate a small portion of our electricity).

Wind power supply is infinitely variable, domestic wind power even more so.
The supply side of the equation cannot be adjusted to take into account the variable output from domestic wind. As domestic turbines provide power the supply side from Eirgrid remains static.

No net savings in CO2 or fuel.

bladespin wrote: »

At the moment peak time electricity costs a lot more than 19c and it will continue to rise sharply as the economy recovers (hopefully lol).
Anything that reduced the load on the grid at peak times is helping the ESB to save vast sums of money.

So your confident that your supply from the wind turbine will occur at peak time ? How about 10% of the time ?

based on a load factor of 15 % (which the more I think about it is way too high a figure to use as an average) that means that you will on average produce power for 3.5 hours a day. That could be middle of the night, early morning, evening, anytime.

You cannot depend on it so Eirgrid have to ensure that they source enough power to meet peak demand. If your wind turbine does decide to come on line then again it cannot instantaneously vary output to take account of this extra power.

bladespin wrote: »

Anyone promising a payback period of less than 10 years is blowing more air than their turbine could handle, a more realistic period for a 3kw machind costing €14k on a 6.5m.sec average site (not very many away form coastal) would be 10-15 years. But then again you will enjoy free electricity for the lifetime of the turbine.

A payback of 15 years would be the exception rather then the rule and would need to be an excellent site requiring no expensive maintenance.

And free electricity ??? Look around the world, subsidies for wind are being removed, how long do you think the 10 cent bonus will last ?

Once that's gone the payback increases even on a great site to 25 plus years.

So again I repeat.

Domestic wind-turbines are a mugs game.

muffler

knipex wrote: »

So again I repeat.

Domestic wind-turbines are a mugs game.

That, for the record, is an opinion and not a statement of fact.

Id rather you didn't express that particular opinion here again.

knipex

muffler wrote: »

That, for the record, is an opinion and not a statement of fact.

Id rather you didn't express that particular opinion here again.

I agree, It's an opinion, However it is an opinion supported by facts as outlined above.

I also note that the facts outlined above have not been questioned so why the "issue" with the conclusion ?

I was under the impression that this forum was a place for discussion, for debate and to express opinion ?

At least the other section of boards.ie are.

If this section of the forum is in some way different, then please let me know and I will just leave.

muffler

knipex wrote: »

I agree, It's an opinion, However it is an opinion supported by facts as outlined above.

I also note that the facts outlined above have not been questioned so why the "issue" with the conclusion ?

I was under the impression that this forum was a place for discussion, for debate and to express opinion ?

At least the other section of boards.ie are.

If this section of the forum is in some way different, then please let me know and I will just leave.

I haven't moderated any of your posts nor have I took issue with the apparent "facts" that you have put forward as you are more than welcome to debate and discuss matters here till the cows come home.

However I dont want to see people who use a particular product and dont subscribe to your opinion being referred to as "mugs"

The choice is entirely yours as to whether you find this forum an acceptable place to post in or not.

knipex

muffler wrote: »

I haven't moderated any of your posts nor have I took issue with the apparent "facts" that you have put forward as you are more than welcome to debate and discuss matters here till the cows come home.

However I dont want to see people who use a particular product and dont subscribe to your opinion being referred to as "mugs"

The choice is entirely yours as to whether you find this forum an acceptable place to post in or not.

Now that I understand your concerns I dont think we will have an issue.

bladespin

knipex wrote: »

Im sorry. What part did you not understand ?

I understood all your post, I'm questioning your credibility.

knipex wrote: »

How exactly do wind turbines save oil ? (ignoring the fact that oil only actually used to generate a small portion of our electricity).

Wind power supply is infinitely variable, domestic wind power even more so.
The supply side of the equation cannot be adjusted to take into account the variable output from domestic wind. As domestic turbines provide power the supply side from Eirgrid remains static.

No net savings in CO2 or fuel.

Every unit of electricity has both an economic and carbon cost, therefore every unit generated from something with a much lower carbon cost has to be saving money both as cash and as Carbon levies saved.

knipex wrote: »

So your confident that your supply from the wind turbine will occur at peak time ? How about 10% of the time ?

based on a load factor of 15 % (which the more I think about it is way too high a figure to use as an average) that means that you will on average produce power for 3.5 hours a day. That could be middle of the night, early morning, evening, anytime.

You cannot depend on it so Eirgrid have to ensure that they source enough power to meet peak demand. If your wind turbine does decide to come on line then again it cannot instantaneously vary output to take account of this extra power.

Of course the wind is variable that's why the trade system works well, you buy and sell based on your need. Or you could just buy an outback inverter and a big block of batteries.

knipex wrote: »

A payback of 15 years would be the exception rather then the rule and would need to be an excellent site requiring no expensive maintenance.

Expensive maintenance, these are domestic turbines, it's not rocket science to maintain them yourself.

knipex wrote: »

And free electricity ??? Look around the world, subsidies for wind are being removed, how long do you think the 10 cent bonus will last ?

Once that's gone the payback increases even on a great site to 25 plus years.

I really don't know where you're getting your information from but it's way off the mark, I've never been busier shipping inverters all over the world, Germany has exploded thanks to new incentives, so has Spain and the UK, there's muted talk here too, if anything our tarrif will increase to match those countries.

knipex wrote: »

So again I repeat.

Domestic wind-turbines are a mugs game.

To you maybe but to many they're a sound investment.

knipex

bladespin wrote: »

I understood all your post, I'm questioning your credibility.

Feel free but at least I understand the difference between power and energy.

bladespin wrote: »

Every unit of electricity has both an economic and carbon cost, therefore every unit generated from something with a much lower carbon cost has to be saving money both as cash and as Carbon levies saved.

You are assuming that when a unit of energy is generated from a domestic wind farm that it means that a unit of electricity is not generated by a traditional fossil fuel plant.

That is not the case. A traditional coal. oil or gas plant is designed to generate "X" MW of power and does so quite well. They are not designed to vary this output, its a constant output and once produced either used or wasted.

When a domestic wind turbine comes on line generating 3Kw of power moneypoint does not generate 3Kw less. It does not happen like that, it physically cannot happen like that.

What happens is that an extra 3Kw is "dumped" or "wasted".

there is no economic benefit for the ESB OR carbon benefit for anyone.

bladespin wrote: »

Of course the wind is variable that's why the trade system works well, you buy and sell based on your need. Or you could just buy an outback inverter and a big block of batteries.

You obviously have no idea how the electricity market works and a limited knowledge of power backup let alone how to integrate the two.

bladespin wrote: »

Expensive maintenance, these are domestic turbines, it's not rocket science to maintain them yourself.

I am no expert on the maintenance of domestic turbines but i would ask if you have ever serviced one yourself ?

bladespin wrote: »

I really don't know where you're getting your information from but it's way off the mark, I've never been busier shipping inverters all over the world, Germany has exploded thanks to new incentives, so has Spain and the UK, there's muted talk here too, if anything our tariff will increase to match those countries.

Ireland already has one of the highest electricity prices in the world. You want them to go higher ?

Most countries including Germany are reviewing how they subsidise renewables, and in particular wind.

bladespin wrote: »

To you maybe but to many they're a sound investment.

Based on what ? Can you please provide any figures to back that up ?

Personally I would not consider a payback of 15 years a sound investment, especially when even that duration is based on a subsidy that could end at any time.