Doctors cars - flashing green lights

The River Rescue guys (in Drogheda, anyway) use red lightbars on their jeeps/van, but I don't think AGS care.

To be honest, unless AGS were pushing for these guys (Doctor, river rescue, etc) to have blues, then I don't think they should meddle at all.

Whilst there's no doubt the lights are illegal, I can't imagine there being much public support for AGS if they start causing hassle for emergency services to remove their lightbars.


Would I be correct in saying that only Govt. bodies use blue lights? DOC seems to be private and the river rescues are mostly volunteers (Coast Guard have blues). Coast Guard, AGS, Fire and Ambulance services are all blue. Is there anyone else?


Also, what's the crack with the small red square on the back of the Traffic Corps' lightbars?

sdanseo

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, what's the crack with the small red square on the back of the Traffic Corps' lightbars?

Rear-facing red lights that they put on at accidents etc.

cushtac

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, unless AGS were pushing for these guys (Doctor, river rescue, etc) to have blues, then I don't think they should meddle at all.

Enforcement of road traffic legislation is not meddling.

msg11

foreign wrote: »

Would you not pull them over, find out what the emergency is and maybe decide to take them in a Garda vehicle which can respond with blues and sirens??

If you are seriously injured you are going to the hospital anyway!

It just something about it, them few minutes finding out what/where the doctor is going could cost someone there life. I wouldn't want that over my head to be honest.

But I do understand you can't have anyone flaunting the law regardless of who they are. As I said before foreign it's a matter than needs to be cleared up with giving them a proper set of lights and training. Before an accident happens with one of these cars.

sdanseo

cushtac wrote: »

Enforcement of road traffic legislation is not meddling.

Normally no but I reckon getting these guys through traffic and to scene is more important than nagging at them on the off chance they might have an accident. Common good and all that.

They should all have training and blues, no excuse for it in today's society really.

Tango Alpha 51

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, unless AGS were pushing for these guys (Doctor, river rescue, etc) to have blues, then I don't think they should meddle at all.

Whilst there's no doubt the lights are illegal, I can't imagine there being much public support for AGS if they start causing hassle for emergency services to remove their lightbars.


KKV,
With all due respect, the above quoted part of your post is an ill informed opinion at best. Enforcing the road traffic act could not/should not be accusing AGS of meddling.

It's not about AGS causing hassle to remove quasi emergency service flashbars etc.

The whole Road Traffic Act paying particular attention to the relevant SI in relation to lighting of emergency vehicles should be ammended but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Inrelation to the GP Co-op cars with the green lights ie ShannDoc, SouthDoc, CareDoc, DubDoc etc, i have yet in all my time in the service have to meet one either coming up behind me or going against me with their lights flashing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but in over 10 yrs I personally haven't seen it. The only time I've seen these lights on is if they are in attendance at an RTA & then they are no different than the recovery truck that arrives on scene with it's orange lights flashing or if their down a dark side road at night & see us coming in the distance, then they would turn them on to let us know where they are.

What would concern me more would be the infamous private "ambulances" around dublin that seem to fly around the place with these lights. I was in Dublin recently for a family funeral & the funeral home director's car had a green flash bar on it. There should be no need for this.

In relation to whether or not Dr's car's should have blue lights & sirens is another debate.

cushtac

sdonn wrote: »

Normally no but I reckon getting these guys through traffic and to scene is more important than nagging at them on the off chance they might have an accident. Common good and all that.

To the scene of what? If an illness or injury is that serious the patient requires an ambulance to take them to hospital, there's no need for private vehicles who answer to no one speeding around with illegal lights on.

The common good is served by ensuring people abide by the rules of the road.

sdonn wrote: »

They should all have training and blues, no excuse for it in today's society really.

There's ambulances & advanced paramedics already on the road, if doctors need to be out on the road they should travel with them & not add another layer to what's available.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Whilst there's no doubt the lights are illegal, I can't imagine there being much public support for AGS if they start causing hassle for emergency services to remove their lightbars.

The problem is they are not an emergency service. Just doctors.

Sierra Oscar

Sitric wrote: »

I´m more interested in how it works in practice, if they are not technically supposed to speed etc under green lights, do the guards stop them or give them an escort? Is it the doctor driving or a professional driver?

To be honest, a lot of the out of hours services around the country that I know of employ retired Gardai to drive the vehicles . . .

My father works with one of the out of hour services and they have their own specific drivers, the doctors themselves do not drive.

foreign

foreign wrote: »

The problem is they are not an emergency service. Just doctors.

Whilst I agree, they're not a recognised emergency service, I would assume that if their lightbar is on, then they are going to an emergency situation.

That said though; like a poster above, i've seen a DOC car a few times around the place, but never seen the lights turned on.

I would argue that River Rescue groups are an emergency service (though not an officially recognised one) and shouldn't be hassle about their lights, or should be switched to blue.

emtrgnmb

foreign wrote: »

The problem is they are not an emergency service. Just doctors.

They may be "Just Doctors", but could be enroute to provide emergency services.

Emergency Doctors cars working out of CUH have blue lights, etc.

West Cork rapid response similarly has blue lights.

The anecdotal evidence here would suggest they hardly ever use the lights and it is therefore unlikely they are abused. This should be addressed in road traffic legislation and most likely will with the advent of immediate care schemes. However as I mentioned previously, Cork are leading the way in this regard and have begun to respond as requested by EMS.

Sitric

emtrgnmb, are the doc's working out of CUH emergency med or anaesthesiologists?

emtrgnmb

Emergency SpR/Reg as far as I know...

Delancey

cushtac wrote: »

The preservation of life is as much a Garda matter as anything else.

It's a fair point to make and I accept that but surely it would not be best practice to get involved in medical situations when there are doctors and paramedics trained and equipped to deal ?

Sitric

emtrgnmb wrote: »

Emergency SpR/Reg as far as I know...

Wow, nice to see things being done properly in Ireland for a change! When did that begin?

Sitric

cushtac wrote: »

The preservation of life is as much a Garda matter as anything else.

I agree, a guards primary duty is to assist if required if a life is in danger and they do this all the time but if someone is on the way to an emergency, why stop them? I get the impression that this is simply a hypothethical discussion, nobody has actually stopped one of these cars?

If the EMS feel there is a need for medical response cars, the legislation should be changed to cover it.

My personal feelings are that keeping to the speed limits are the last thing I would think about if I needed to assist someone in a critical situation whether in my personal car or a car with blue or green lights. And plenty of people justifiably break speed limits etc to get people to hospital.

But, with that said, if it was my job, i'd prefer it to be clearer. ie You're not a normal person driving in an unsafe manner in response to an emergency, you're driving around in a car who's purpose is to respond to emergencies.

johnnyrotten

These cars are operated by private doctor practice with out of hours services, for example D-Doc in Dublin. The Green lights are not permitted but no-one is going to challenge them.
Basically a doctor on call service. God help the driver if the car with lights and sirens has an accident

Ziycon

Deleted User wrote: »

I would argue that River Rescue groups are an emergency service (though not an officially recognised one) and shouldn't be hassle about their lights, or should be switched to blue.

Does this not come under the civil defence? As far as I know they use blue lights.

Ziycon

Ziycon wrote: »

Does this not come under the civil defence? As far as I know they use blue lights.

Well I'm not sure how the Civil Defence operate. As far as I know they don't have anything in Drogheda (closest Civil Defence marked vehicles are in Dublin, I believe) so maybe it's a proximity thing?

I know that the Boyne Fisherman's River Rescue and the Drogheda River Rescue use red lights.


From bfrrs.com;

dmatty06

Sitric wrote: »

Wow, nice to see things being done properly in Ireland for a change! When did that begin?

the cuh medico cars have been in operation for a couple of years now i believe. there is also a gp in east cork who specialises in trauma cases and is called out by ambulance control. he drives on blues but has specialist permission from local super i believe (forgive me if thats wrong title but the guy high up in gardai) its much like the basics service in uk i.e. he does not get paid and funds all his own equipment. from talking to local paramedics they all breath a sigh of relief when they hear he's responding with them. top notch doc!

cushtac

Sitric wrote: »

I agree, a guards primary duty is to assist if required if a life is in danger and they do this all the time but if someone is on the way to an emergency, why stop them? I get the impression that this is simply a hypothethical discussion, nobody has actually stopped one of these cars?

These are not part of the emergency services, they are doctors on out of hours calls. Ambulances and advanced paramedics are there to respond to emergencies, not these guys.

Sitric wrote: »

If the EMS feel there is a need for medical response cars, the legislation should be changed to cover it.

That's why there are advanced paramedics in cars. There's no need to legislate for private doctors to be allowed drive on blues.

Sitric wrote: »

My personal feelings are that keeping to the speed limits are the last thing I would think about if I needed to assist someone in a critical situation whether in my personal car or a car with blue or green lights. And plenty of people justifiably break speed limits etc to get people to hospital.

I've seen three serious accidents caused by such thinking.

cushtac

delancey42 wrote: »

It's a fair point to make and I accept that but surely it would not be best practice to get involved in medical situations when there are doctors and paramedics trained and equipped to deal ?

I never said anything about paramedics. Ambulances and advanced paramedics are entitled by law to the blue lights. If they are driving with the blues on they are either responding to 999 calls, doing an urgent patient transfer or delivering blood/organs etc. They are answerable to a control room where their activities are recorded & any incident arising out of the improper use of blues is identifiable.

Docs on call are private doctors who are providing an out of hours GP service, not emergency cover. Since they are not part of the EMS hierarchy there is no way of tracking back why they'd be driving in a manner typical to an ambulance on a call. The decision to do so is entirely at the whim of the occupants.

Medical emergencies are dealt with by ambulances and advanced paramedics, not out of hours GPs. If you're that ill you ring 999 & get brought to hospital; you don't ring your GP, have him come over & then ring 999 for a ambulance to bring you to hospital.

Hooch

Ziycon wrote: »

Does this not come under the civil defence? As far as I know they use blue lights.

Civil Defence can only use blue lights on Fire applicances and Ambulances.......

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I'm not sure how the Civil Defence operate. As far as I know they don't have anything in Drogheda (closest Civil Defence marked vehicles are in Dublin, I believe) so maybe it's a proximity thing?

I know that the Boyne Fisherman's River Rescue and the Drogheda River Rescue use red lights.

Once again......it doesnt matter what they have....they are illegal.

Pity nice guy wasnt stationed there.

dmatty06 wrote: »

the cuh medico cars have been in operation for a couple of years now i believe. there is also a gp in east cork who specialises in trauma cases and is called out by ambulance control. he drives on blues but has specialist permission from local super i believe (forgive me if thats wrong title but the guy high up in gardai) its much like the basics service in uk i.e. he does not get paid and funds all his own equipment. from talking to local paramedics they all breath a sigh of relief when they hear he's responding with them. top notch doc!

The CUH passat etc are supplied by the HSE and driven by Paramedics normally carrying ED consultants....these are fully covered for blue lights.

In regards the Doctor in East Cork, while he is now a GP, he was an ED consultant and BASICS Doc in England. His vehicle is fitted with blue lights, however he is used by the HSE and the NAS and is covered under them for blue lights and insurance.

These are a different ball game from private Docs.

Simply they are illegal. They shouldnt be using them and last time I saw a driver switching them on, I called to the base afterwards and cautioned the driver. Its all fun and games until someone gets hurt.

A Voluntary Ambulance crashed sometime ago and the driver was convicted for dangerous driving.....he was using blue lights travelling to nothing.

emtrgnmb

Advanced paramedics are not the most senior clinicians available to assess or treat an acutely unwell or injured patient in the pre-hospital environment.

In fact all prehospital care practitioners, including Advanced Paramedics are advised to seek the advice of doctors if they meet challenging situations. APs are not a replacement for immediate care physicians.

The out of hours GPs could be called to provide urgent care by one of their patients and may decide to respond in this capacity. Some people may request an ambulance and then call their GP, however unlikely.

In Ireland general practitioners (what you are calling private doctors) remain the standard primary care physician. Immediate care schemes, which will no doubt involve many primary care physicians (as BASICS does) will be implemented in the not too distant future and will see doctors responding to AS1 calls in an organised and regulated manner, as directed by the HSE. What is happening in CUH will be replicated elsewhere.

monkeysox

Folks... this is dragging on a bit now... but I feel that I must clarify a few points,

All doctors are not the same.
General Practitioners are not emergency physicians.
In Ireland a very small number of Doctors have pre-hospital qualifications.

In Cork there are 3 pre-hospital doctors (Immediate care doctors)
1 in East Cork (not a former A&E consultant) callsign AC01
1 in the city using a HSE/CUH owned Skoda Superb callsign AB03
1 in West Cork (West Cork Rapid Response) AE05

These are all operated on a voluntary basis in addition to their 'day job' and are all tasked from Ambulance Control. They are not available at all times!

None of these vehicle are driven by Ambulance Service staff and this is a contentious issue at the moment.

There is another marked response car in CUH (New shape passat estate) and this is for MEDICO CORK, a partnership between CUH ED and The Irish Navy/ Dept of Marine. This car is not driven by ambulance staff either and has never been used for any 999 response... again a contentious issue.

Apart from a Major Incident response and the occassional Medical Team called to support the Ambulance Service, CUH has no formal pre-hospital committments and has no rota for Doctors to work outside the hospital.

Medical team requests are channelled thru Ambulance Control and agreed by the duty A&E consultant and transport is provided by the Ambulance Service.

Getting back to GP's, most GP's hate being called out to emergencies as this is not their area of comfort, for example at a cardiac arrest most GP's will do no clinical interventions as a simple skill such as inserting an IV cannula ( a drip ) is something that they don't do regularly and therefore are not proficient at it. They will often be in the next room talking to the family while the Ambulance Service will be working on the patient. I would say that 9 out of 10 GP's wouldn't insert a canulla or give cardiac arrest drugs. This is not to have a go at GP's, however, the general public think that all doctors and nurses are experts at all types of medical emergencies.

cushtac

emtrgnmb wrote: »

Advanced paramedics are not the most senior clinicians available to assess or treat an acutely unwell or injured patient in the pre-hospital environment.

Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics are the most available though, and are the personnel with the necessary training and legislative backing to drive safely at speed.

emtrgnmb wrote: »

In fact all prehospital care practitioners, including Advanced Paramedics are advised to seek the advice of doctors if they meet challenging situations. APs are not a replacement for immediate care physicians.

I never said they were, but unless a doctor is on scene with them they're going to transport them to hospital. They don't wait on scene for a Doc on Call to arrive first.

emtrgnmb wrote: »

The out of hours GPs could be called to provide urgent care by one of their patients and may decide to respond in this capacity. Some people may request an ambulance and then call their GP, however unlikely.

If care is that urgent should they not be advised by the GP to call for an ambulance, rather than the doctor risking his own life & that of other road users by driving dangerously on illegal lights?

emtrgnmb wrote: »

In Ireland general practitioners (what you are calling private doctors) remain the standard primary care physician. Immediate care schemes, which will no doubt involve many primary care physicians (as BASICS does) will be implemented in the not too distant future and will see doctors responding to AS1 calls in an organised and regulated manner, as directed by the HSE. What is happening in CUH will be replicated elsewhere.

Until that happens doctors should avoid using green lights.

Tango Alpha 51

monkeysox wrote: »

Folks... this is dragging on a bit now... but I feel that I must clarify a few points,

All doctors are not the same.
General Practitioners are not emergency physicians.
In Ireland a very small number of Doctors have pre-hospital qualifications.

In Cork there are 3 pre-hospital doctors (Immediate care doctors)
1 in East Cork (not a former A&E consultant) callsign AC01
1 in the city using a HSE/CUH owned Skoda Superb callsign AB03
1 in West Cork (West Cork Rapid Response) AE05

These are all operated on a voluntary basis in addition to their 'day job' and are all tasked from Ambulance Control. They are not available at all times!

None of these vehicle are driven by Ambulance Service staff and this is a contentious issue at the moment.

There is another marked response car in CUH (New shape passat estate) and this is for MEDICO CORK, a partnership between CUH ED and The Irish Navy/ Dept of Marine. This car is not driven by ambulance staff either and has never been used for any 999 response... again a contentious issue.

Apart from a Major Incident response and the occassional Medical Team called to support the Ambulance Service, CUH has no formal pre-hospital committments and has no rota for Doctors to work outside the hospital.

Medical team requests are channelled thru Ambulance Control and agreed by the duty A&E consultant and transport is provided by the Ambulance Service.

Getting back to GP's, most GP's hate being called out to emergencies as this is not their area of comfort, for example at a cardiac arrest most GP's will do no clinical interventions as a simple skill such as inserting an IV cannula ( a drip ) is something that they don't do regularly and therefore are not proficient at it. They will often be in the next room talking to the family while the Ambulance Service will be working on the patient. I would say that 9 out of 10 GP's wouldn't insert a canulla or give cardiac arrest drugs. This is not to have a go at GP's, however, the general public think that all doctors and nurses are experts at all types of medical emergencies.

+1. Excellent post !!

Chiparus

nice guy always wrote: »

Blue and Yellow are the only flashing lights noted in legislation. This automatically means all other colours are illegal. There are several offences including a colour front facing, colour rear facing, flashing light seen from outside a vehicle etc.

South Doc, Shannon Doc, Doc on call etc are using illegal lights....simples. they do not have blues on their vehicles as are there is no exemption for them in law.....so they wrongfully believe they can use them green ones.

Yellow flashing lights on tractors are also illegal - I think common sense would apply before any guard pulls them over for this offence.

emtrgnmb

Medical practitioners do not require postgraduate pre-hospital qualifications to provide emergency care in the pre-hospital field.

You don’t have to be an emergency physician to operate as a doctor in the pre-hospital arena, while they are very appropriate.

Immediate care in other jurisdictions is normally provided by primary care physicians or emergency physicians. IC is a half way house between both.

All doctors may not be the same, but they are all medical practitioners and entitled to practice as such. If they want to provide advanced care, they can, they do not require a postgraduate (MSc) pre-hospital care qualification to do so, while of course an advantage.

Postgraduate (tertiary level) pre-hospital training for medical practitioners in Ireland is in its infancy, but has been established and will enhance the implementation of specialist immediate care schemes in Ireland. Immediate care is also better addressed by undergraduate medical education.

The prof of emerg med in CUH is the driving force behind the establishment of pre-hospital physicians, along with some general practitioners who have a special interest in immediate care, and those in the CICS dept. UCD.

While I don't doubt your experience of GPs in emergency situations we could not draw conclusions from anecdotal evidence. The feeling of GPs towards emergency calls should be established by qualitative investigation, not on the insight of other practitioners.

In saying this, the local GP who is due to retire next year (as many, many of them are within the next 5 years - a potential factor in what you experience regularly) won’t be doing an RSI at the roadside. However a general practitioner is a fully registered medical practitioner and entitled to operate as such. Those who want to get involved in advanced care will and I suspect it will become more common in the future.

cuhstac most of my previous post was indeed off topic and making a case for immediate care physicians and not really referring to green lights (ill probably get a penalty point from NGA now...) Regarding the use of green lights et al. Either, provision should be made for their use in non private vehicles for use by medical practitioners responding as an established level of the EMS or they should be removed without exception. None of these audio/visual signals should be authorised for use in personal vehicles.

While referring to X Doc response...there is nothing to stop there simply responding in an orderly manner. And I did not mean to suggest they should do otherwise.

Can AGS not insist that green beacons be removed, at a local level? As in while they are cruising around, stop them and have the driver remove the lights, made arrangements to do so or remove the vehicle from the road. Especially these private ambulances which AGS must intimately encounter in their line of work?

resus

monkeysox wrote: »

In Cork there are 3 pre-hospital doctors (Immediate care doctors)
1 in East Cork (not a former A&E consultant) callsign AC01
1 in the city using a HSE/CUH owned Skoda Superb callsign AB03
1 in West Cork (West Cork Rapid Response) AE05

These are all operated on a voluntary basis in addition to their 'day job' and are all tasked from Ambulance Control. They are not available at all times!

None of these vehicle are driven by Ambulance Service staff and this is a contentious issue at the moment.

Contentious issue in my head is that these are all voluntary and not state supported services like in most 1st world countries such as Romania. Who cares if they are ambulance service staff on paper or not. To the crews they back-up (when available), they are every bit part of the prehospital emergency team. If it is such an issue (what is the issue by-the-way?), why not simply make them "staff." All 3 of the docs involved are HSE employees, just like ambulance crews!

We need desperately to have a fully integrated system. Novel ideas supported, moving forwards and not looking back. If it saves life-and-limb, that's what matters.

ALL of the above said, the biggest issue right now is 1 July