Doctors cars - flashing green lights

Elessar

On my way to blanchardstown center yesterday a Doctor car passed me at speed and almost clipped me, with flashing green lights and siren.

I know flashing green lights have no basis in law (and technically are illegal?), so why do these cars have them? If it was known they would be used in emergencies, why were they not given blue lights?

Is it either a colossal mistake or unbelievable carelessness on the part of the HSE?

coolmoose

Elessar wrote: »

Is it either a colossal mistake or unbelievable carelessness on the part of the HSE?

was it a HSE ambulance service vehicle or a private GP co-op vehicle? If it was the latter, the HSE have no control over the marking or lighting of these vehicles. As regards the legality of the lights, this is a topic that has been beaten to death on various fora including here IIRC...

either way I don't see how it is carelessness or a "colossal" mistake...you'd surely see a flashing green light just as quickly as a flashing blue/red/amber one...

monkeysox

In most parts of the country those doctors cars are operated by GP out of hours coops which are generally private companies.
Outside of the cities the ambulance service would have traditionally called the GPs for serious stuff, namely cardiac arrests. Lately due to advances in pre-hospital care within the ambulance service this happens less often.
However, if someone phones whateverDoc for, lets say a febrile convulsion or a collapse or something, the GP service will refer it on to the ambulance service but would probably respond themselves too.

Green lights have no place in Ireland
GP coops have no place with lights & sirens

Elessar

coolmoose wrote: »

was it a HSE ambulance service vehicle or a private GP co-op vehicle? If it was the latter, the HSE have no control over the marking or lighting of these vehicles. As regards the legality of the lights, this is a topic that has been beaten to death on various fora including here IIRC...

either way I don't see how it is carelessness or a "colossal" mistake...you'd surely see a flashing green light just as quickly as a flashing blue/red/amber one...

It just said "Doctor", I didn't see any other markings. I assumed the HSE paid for it as it was probably one of the D-Doc cars. Maybe not.

I'm not debating whether you'd see them or not, nor whether they should be there! I'm asking why the lights are green since no other vehicles (bar coroners ambulances for some reason) have green flashing lights, they are not mentioned in the rules of the road, and I believe the law is clear enough that there shouldn't be any flashing lights that aren't blue, amber (or red/white?). Maybe someone more knowledgeable could clear that up.

I mean, why green? Blue is used to identify emergency services vehicles. Why not blue? Seems like whoever ordered the cars was not up to scratch on what lights should be on the vehicle, or didn't care either way.

monkeysox

Green because Doctors in the UK use green

end of story so...

sgthighway

ivabiggon

talk to joe:D

coolmoose

i would bet money it's not HSE. it's a GP coop car. they can put whatever lights they want on them, nothing to do with the HSE.

As regards legality, amber lights are also not supposed to be on tractors and pickup trucks AFAIK, but a blind eye is turned as it is presumed to be safer to allow you to see them. Same goes for the Doctor cars most of the time, common sense v letter of the law. Plus as monkeysox says, UK Doctor coop cars normally have green lights.

Sirens are a different matter though, never heard of one of the coop cars using a siren before.

When your post questioned the issue of carelessness or a colossal mistake I assumed it was relating to your ability to see them.

monkeysox

long before gp coops used green BASICS were using them. It is well established practice in UK,

it is legal for doctors in the UK to use green lights for emergencies.
some of the BASICS/HEMS cars have alternating blue and green 'take down' lights

Delancey

I don't wish to appear to be discouraging or stifling social intercourse and healthy debate but I have to ask : are we going to beat the s**t out of this subject yet AGAIN ?

Aren't all HSE cars, much like their ambulances, etc. all painted the same way?

I believe that this belongs to HSE;









I assume every HSE DOC would have the same pattern/decals?


As for green lights... bit ofa non-issue, in my opinion.

cushtac

That's not a HSE vehicle.

cushtac

cushtac wrote: »

That's not a HSE vehicle.

Are you sure? I'm not entirely sure myself to be honest (which is why i wrote "I believe" it belonged to HSE). Found the lack of a HSE logo a bit odd.


That said, I was told by a few hospital staff that it belonged to the HSE, so I assume they'd know?

dmatty06

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you sure? I'm not entirely sure myself to be honest (which is why i wrote "I believe" it belonged to HSE). Found the lack of a HSE logo a bit odd.


That said, I was told by a few hospital staff that it belonged to the HSE, so I assume they'd know?

the 1850 number on the side suggests a gp coop vehicle to me. so as said above hse has no say on markings etc

cushtac

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you sure? I'm not entirely sure myself to be honest (which is why i wrote "I believe" it belonged to HSE). Found the lack of a HSE logo a bit odd.


That said, I was told by a few hospital staff that it belonged to the HSE, so I assume they'd know?

I'm positive, it's not a HSE vehicle.

dmatty06

quick google search shows its a NEDOC car i.e north eastern doctor on call so gp coop car as suspected so not truely hse, partly funded maybe im not sure but not a hse car.

dmatty06

dmatty06 wrote: »

quick google search

Out of curiousity, what did you actually search for to find it?

I did a search for "HSE Doctor on call car" (in images, obviously) but all i got were two UK cars and the rest weren't even relating to what i searched for

Sitric

I´m more interested in how it works in practice, if they are not technically supposed to speed etc under green lights, do the guards stop them or give them an escort? Is it the doctor driving or a professional driver?

dmatty06

googled the number on the side of the car

As for the lights they are only a warning signal and do not give any special rights at traffic lights etc. mainly theyre there for example if they are stuck behind a car on a 100km/hr road whos only doing 80km/hr so they can get passed. they are professional drivers who are mostly ex guards and the lights may only be switched on if the doctor deems it necessary i.e. cardiac arrest etc. the lights are quite rarely used. now i must say i only know that this is the case for SouthDoc in the cork area but presumably its similar for most coops. no sirens in southdoc cars

dmatty06

dmatty06 wrote: »

they are professional drivers who are mostly ex guards

What proof is there of this? And even if they are professional they have no exemption under the Rules of the Road.

dmatty06 wrote: »

and the lights may only be switched on if the doctor deems it necessary i.e. cardiac arrest etc.

Legally the lights should never be switched on. Regardless of the incident being attended.

dmatty06

foreign wrote: »

What proof is there of this? And even if they are professional they have no exemption under the Rules of the Road.




Legally the lights should never be switched on. Regardless of the incident being attended.

the proof is through my father who works with southdoc. i clearly stated the lights give them no exemption. and as for the legality debate on blue/green/purple lights etc has been done to death on here before so im not getting involved in another. i was clearly informing as to what happens in southdoc in answer to sitric's question.

Tango November.

cushtac wrote: »

That's not a HSE vehicle.

Totaly correct !! these cars are privately owned , ther are many types of cars but the hse one's would be the yellow coloured ones. These cars are not drove by dcotors they have drivers who maintan them .

The 1800 number is to a HSE nurse who they hangs around for 10 or 15 mins and thengets back to ya !

These cars carry a good bit of gaer.

Hooch

Elessar wrote: »

I'm not debating whether you'd see them or not, nor whether they should be there! I'm asking why the lights are green since no other vehicles (bar coroners ambulances for some reason) have green flashing lights, they are not mentioned in the rules of the road, and I believe the law is clear enough that there shouldn't be any flashing lights that aren't blue, amber (or red/white?). Maybe someone more knowledgeable could clear that up.

I mean, why green? Blue is used to identify emergency services vehicles. Why not blue? Seems like whoever ordered the cars was not up to scratch on what lights should be on the vehicle, or didn't care either way.

Blue and Yellow are the only flashing lights noted in legislation. This automatically means all other colours are illegal. There are several offences including a colour front facing, colour rear facing, flashing light seen from outside a vehicle etc.

South Doc, Shannon Doc, Doc on call etc are using illegal lights....simples. they do not have blues on their vehicles as are there is no exemption for them in law.....so they wrongfully believe they can use them green ones.

coolmoose

Tango November. wrote: »

The 1800 number is to a HSE nurse who they hangs around for 10 or 15 mins and then gets back to ya!

It's a practice nurse/telephone triage nurse hired by the GP coop you speak to, not a HSE nurse.

Sitric

nice guy always wrote: »

Blue and Yellow are the only flashing lights noted in legislation. This automatically means all other colours are illegal. There are several offences including a colour front facing, colour rear facing, flashing light seen from outside a vehicle etc.

South Doc, Shannon Doc, Doc on call etc are using illegal lights....simples. they do not have blues on their vehicles as are there is no exemption for them in law.....so they wrongfully believe they can use them green ones.

Do the guards stop them then or in effect is it allowed? Ignored?

Presumably the RTA would need to be changed to allow them to use blue lights?

msg11

Sitric wrote: »

Do the guards stop them then or in effect is it allowed? Ignored?

Presumably the RTA would need to be changed to allow them to use blue lights?

I know this is wrong to say, but if I was in a position and seen a doctor car going by using green lights. I wouldn't pull over the car, I would note down the car Reg and have words the next day about the driving. There's no point in putting someone's life at risk over light's on a car that's marked doctor. I would also bring this up at meetings on road safety.

In my world, I just pull in/move for green lights. As said, they wouldn't turn them on for no reason.

They should be trained and giving blues to be honest.

If your seriously injured the last thing you need to be told is we are going to have to get you to a hospital that's 20 miles away, because the Gardai pulled the doctor over cause of the lights on the car.

Just my two cents, will get taking out of the sky for the above comment.

sdanseo

msg11 wrote: »

I know this is wrong to say, but if I was in a position and seen a doctor car going by using green lights. I wouldn't pull over the car, I would note down the car Reg and have words the next day about the driving. There's no point in putting someone's life at risk over light's on a car that's marked doctor. I would also bring this up at meetings on road safety.

In my world, I just pull in/move for green lights. As said, they wouldn't turn them on for no reason.

They should be trained and giving blues to be honest.

If your seriously injured the last thing you need to be told is we are going to have to get you to a hospital that's 20 miles away, because the Gardai pulled the doctor over cause of the lights on the car.

Just my two cents, will get taking out of the sky for the above comment.

On the contrary, that's the most common sense post I've seen here in a whle

Edit: Oooh, 3,000 posts. :P

msg11

msg11 wrote: »

I know this is wrong to say, but if I was in a position and seen a doctor car going by using green lights. I wouldn't pull over the car, I would note down the car Reg and have words the next day about the driving. There's no point in putting someone's life at risk over light's on a car that's marked doctor. I would also bring this up at meetings on road safety.

Would you not pull them over, find out what the emergency is and maybe decide to take them in a Garda vehicle which can respond with blues and sirens??

msg11 wrote: »

If your seriously injured the last thing you need to be told is we are going to have to get you to a hospital that's 20 miles away, because the Gardai pulled the doctor over cause of the lights on the car.

If you are seriously injured you are going to the hospital anyway!

Delancey

foreign wrote: »

Would you not pull them over, find out what the emergency is and maybe decide to take them in a Garda vehicle which can respond with blues and sirens?

/QUOTE]


Surely a not very efficient use of a Garda car ? What happens if a Garda emergency arises while the car is used on a medical call ?

delancey42

delancey42 wrote: »

foreign wrote: »

Would you not pull them over, find out what the emergency is and maybe decide to take them in a Garda vehicle which can respond with blues and sirens?

/QUOTE]


Surely a not very efficient use of a Garda car ? What happens if a Garda emergency arises while the car is used on a medical call ?

Well seeing as how our primary role is the protection of life, where do you think our priorities lie?

cushtac

delancey42 wrote: »

Surely a not very efficient use of a Garda car ? What happens if a Garda emergency arises while the car is used on a medical call ?

The preservation of life is as much a Garda matter as anything else.

The River Rescue guys (in Drogheda, anyway) use red lightbars on their jeeps/van, but I don't think AGS care.

To be honest, unless AGS were pushing for these guys (Doctor, river rescue, etc) to have blues, then I don't think they should meddle at all.

Whilst there's no doubt the lights are illegal, I can't imagine there being much public support for AGS if they start causing hassle for emergency services to remove their lightbars.


Would I be correct in saying that only Govt. bodies use blue lights? DOC seems to be private and the river rescues are mostly volunteers (Coast Guard have blues). Coast Guard, AGS, Fire and Ambulance services are all blue. Is there anyone else?


Also, what's the crack with the small red square on the back of the Traffic Corps' lightbars?

sdanseo

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, what's the crack with the small red square on the back of the Traffic Corps' lightbars?

Rear-facing red lights that they put on at accidents etc.

cushtac

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, unless AGS were pushing for these guys (Doctor, river rescue, etc) to have blues, then I don't think they should meddle at all.

Enforcement of road traffic legislation is not meddling.

msg11

foreign wrote: »

Would you not pull them over, find out what the emergency is and maybe decide to take them in a Garda vehicle which can respond with blues and sirens??

If you are seriously injured you are going to the hospital anyway!

It just something about it, them few minutes finding out what/where the doctor is going could cost someone there life. I wouldn't want that over my head to be honest.

But I do understand you can't have anyone flaunting the law regardless of who they are. As I said before foreign it's a matter than needs to be cleared up with giving them a proper set of lights and training. Before an accident happens with one of these cars.

sdanseo

cushtac wrote: »

Enforcement of road traffic legislation is not meddling.

Normally no but I reckon getting these guys through traffic and to scene is more important than nagging at them on the off chance they might have an accident. Common good and all that.

They should all have training and blues, no excuse for it in today's society really.

Tango Alpha 51

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, unless AGS were pushing for these guys (Doctor, river rescue, etc) to have blues, then I don't think they should meddle at all.

Whilst there's no doubt the lights are illegal, I can't imagine there being much public support for AGS if they start causing hassle for emergency services to remove their lightbars.


KKV,
With all due respect, the above quoted part of your post is an ill informed opinion at best. Enforcing the road traffic act could not/should not be accusing AGS of meddling.

It's not about AGS causing hassle to remove quasi emergency service flashbars etc.

The whole Road Traffic Act paying particular attention to the relevant SI in relation to lighting of emergency vehicles should be ammended but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Inrelation to the GP Co-op cars with the green lights ie ShannDoc, SouthDoc, CareDoc, DubDoc etc, i have yet in all my time in the service have to meet one either coming up behind me or going against me with their lights flashing. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but in over 10 yrs I personally haven't seen it. The only time I've seen these lights on is if they are in attendance at an RTA & then they are no different than the recovery truck that arrives on scene with it's orange lights flashing or if their down a dark side road at night & see us coming in the distance, then they would turn them on to let us know where they are.

What would concern me more would be the infamous private "ambulances" around dublin that seem to fly around the place with these lights. I was in Dublin recently for a family funeral & the funeral home director's car had a green flash bar on it. There should be no need for this.

In relation to whether or not Dr's car's should have blue lights & sirens is another debate.

cushtac

sdonn wrote: »

Normally no but I reckon getting these guys through traffic and to scene is more important than nagging at them on the off chance they might have an accident. Common good and all that.

To the scene of what? If an illness or injury is that serious the patient requires an ambulance to take them to hospital, there's no need for private vehicles who answer to no one speeding around with illegal lights on.

The common good is served by ensuring people abide by the rules of the road.

sdonn wrote: »

They should all have training and blues, no excuse for it in today's society really.

There's ambulances & advanced paramedics already on the road, if doctors need to be out on the road they should travel with them & not add another layer to what's available.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Whilst there's no doubt the lights are illegal, I can't imagine there being much public support for AGS if they start causing hassle for emergency services to remove their lightbars.

The problem is they are not an emergency service. Just doctors.

Sierra Oscar

Sitric wrote: »

I´m more interested in how it works in practice, if they are not technically supposed to speed etc under green lights, do the guards stop them or give them an escort? Is it the doctor driving or a professional driver?

To be honest, a lot of the out of hours services around the country that I know of employ retired Gardai to drive the vehicles . . .

My father works with one of the out of hour services and they have their own specific drivers, the doctors themselves do not drive.

foreign

foreign wrote: »

The problem is they are not an emergency service. Just doctors.

Whilst I agree, they're not a recognised emergency service, I would assume that if their lightbar is on, then they are going to an emergency situation.

That said though; like a poster above, i've seen a DOC car a few times around the place, but never seen the lights turned on.

I would argue that River Rescue groups are an emergency service (though not an officially recognised one) and shouldn't be hassle about their lights, or should be switched to blue.

emtrgnmb

foreign wrote: »

The problem is they are not an emergency service. Just doctors.

They may be "Just Doctors", but could be enroute to provide emergency services.

Emergency Doctors cars working out of CUH have blue lights, etc.

West Cork rapid response similarly has blue lights.

The anecdotal evidence here would suggest they hardly ever use the lights and it is therefore unlikely they are abused. This should be addressed in road traffic legislation and most likely will with the advent of immediate care schemes. However as I mentioned previously, Cork are leading the way in this regard and have begun to respond as requested by EMS.

Sitric

emtrgnmb, are the doc's working out of CUH emergency med or anaesthesiologists?

emtrgnmb

Emergency SpR/Reg as far as I know...

Delancey

cushtac wrote: »

The preservation of life is as much a Garda matter as anything else.

It's a fair point to make and I accept that but surely it would not be best practice to get involved in medical situations when there are doctors and paramedics trained and equipped to deal ?

Sitric

emtrgnmb wrote: »

Emergency SpR/Reg as far as I know...

Wow, nice to see things being done properly in Ireland for a change! When did that begin?

Sitric

cushtac wrote: »

The preservation of life is as much a Garda matter as anything else.

I agree, a guards primary duty is to assist if required if a life is in danger and they do this all the time but if someone is on the way to an emergency, why stop them? I get the impression that this is simply a hypothethical discussion, nobody has actually stopped one of these cars?

If the EMS feel there is a need for medical response cars, the legislation should be changed to cover it.

My personal feelings are that keeping to the speed limits are the last thing I would think about if I needed to assist someone in a critical situation whether in my personal car or a car with blue or green lights. And plenty of people justifiably break speed limits etc to get people to hospital.

But, with that said, if it was my job, i'd prefer it to be clearer. ie You're not a normal person driving in an unsafe manner in response to an emergency, you're driving around in a car who's purpose is to respond to emergencies.

johnnyrotten

These cars are operated by private doctor practice with out of hours services, for example D-Doc in Dublin. The Green lights are not permitted but no-one is going to challenge them.
Basically a doctor on call service. God help the driver if the car with lights and sirens has an accident

Ziycon

Deleted User wrote: »

I would argue that River Rescue groups are an emergency service (though not an officially recognised one) and shouldn't be hassle about their lights, or should be switched to blue.

Does this not come under the civil defence? As far as I know they use blue lights.

Ziycon

Ziycon wrote: »

Does this not come under the civil defence? As far as I know they use blue lights.

Well I'm not sure how the Civil Defence operate. As far as I know they don't have anything in Drogheda (closest Civil Defence marked vehicles are in Dublin, I believe) so maybe it's a proximity thing?

I know that the Boyne Fisherman's River Rescue and the Drogheda River Rescue use red lights.


From bfrrs.com;

dmatty06

Sitric wrote: »

Wow, nice to see things being done properly in Ireland for a change! When did that begin?

the cuh medico cars have been in operation for a couple of years now i believe. there is also a gp in east cork who specialises in trauma cases and is called out by ambulance control. he drives on blues but has specialist permission from local super i believe (forgive me if thats wrong title but the guy high up in gardai) its much like the basics service in uk i.e. he does not get paid and funds all his own equipment. from talking to local paramedics they all breath a sigh of relief when they hear he's responding with them. top notch doc!