Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

deravarra

paulaa wrote: »

Why has Bibi only said that they would "ease" the blockade of Gaza in press releases in English to foreign media. That bit was not included in the press release in Hebrew for domestic consumption?
Could it be that it was another lie from the Israeli PM before his meeting with Obama next month, just like the so-called "freeze" on settlement building ?

Should we be surprised by the antics of this three card trick joker?

paulaa

deravarra wrote: »

Should we be surprised by the antics of this three card trick joker?

Not really. "Forked tongue" is the phrase that comes to mind.

Manic Moran

Wouldnt it be wonderful if the dockers took the same approach as the workers in Dunnes many years ago, and refuse to handle Israeli goods?

The ship is Israeli, doesn't mean to say everything on it is Israeli. I seem to recall some ship sent from Ireland to Gaza recently was Cambodian. Does that make all aboard Cambodian?

NTM

deravarra

Manic Moran wrote: »

The ship is Israeli, doesn't mean to say everything on it is Israeli. I seem to recall some ship sent from Ireland to Gaza recently was Cambodian. Does that make all aboard Cambodian?

NTM

Perhaps it would encourage people to think twice about doing business with Israel ...

wes

Just saw the following article in Al Jazeera, and it really illistrates, the mind set of the Israeli government:

Flotilla flap at the UN

Israel has engaged in a war of words with the United Nations Correspondents Association which hosted an event during which a passenger on board the Mavi Marmara was allowed to show a video that was shot as Israeli commandoes raided the aid ship.

The Israeli mission to the UN took aim at UNCA in a letter dated June 17. It says Israel was denied the opportunity to present its point of view to UN journalists and demands an apology.

"Offering UN media facilities to screen video produced by a one-sided activist while actively preventing a Member State of the United Nations an opportunity to respond in real time is severely unethical," Israeli spokesperson Mirit Cohen wrote in her complaint.

Cohen had asked to show a five minute film put together by the IDF right after a screening of footage smuggled out of Israel by Brazilian-American activist Iara Lee.

She told the Israeli press that she was asked to reschedule at the last minute.

But UNCA president, Giampaolo Pioli, fired back.

… It was you who turned down our offer to screen your Israeli film and make your statement directly before or after Ms. Lee's presentation, you who refused to take the stage alongside Ms Lee to present your side of the story, you who declined to take questions from UNCA journalists - a requirement for all UNCA presentations.

Click here for full article

Truly astonishing that the Israeli diplomat would make such blatantly false claims that way, and the various veiled accusations of Anti-semitism are also equally laughable. Really really bizarre attitude to take imho.

Noreen1

wes wrote: »

Just saw the following article in Al Jazeera, and it really illistrates, the mind set of the Israeli government:




Truly astonishing that the Israeli diplomat would make such blatantly false claims that way, and the various veiled accusations of Anti-semitism are also equally laughable. Really really bizarre attitude to take imho.

Agreed, it is a truly astonishing verification of the completely blinkered view taken by the Israelis in regard to this incident!
What is even more bizarre is the fact that while arguing in favour of a "balanced" (:rolleyes:) presentation, Ms Cohen had the audacity to write this:

As such, I have decided to share with the members of UNCA the footage  prepared by Israel.

Unbelievable!

Noreen

Nodin

deravarra wrote: »

Oh I think it is - what with israel being a theocratic "state" ...

The only theocracy in that region is Iran.

deravarra

Nodin wrote: »

The only theocracy in that region is Iran.

Actually, no - but the one thing about iran is that it doesnt pretend to be anything other than a theocracy.

So let me put a question to you:

Migration to/naturalization in Israel - does it or doesnt it have a policy whereby if you are Jewish, you can obtain citizenship by virtue of your being of that religious persuasion?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Run_to_da_hills

Manic Moran wrote: »

That likely will not end well.

Port of Oakland needs its piers to be cycling. I expect some remedial actions will be taken to stop the offloading from being blocked. The last time such a thing occurred, about two years back, it was not a pleasant outcome for the protestors.

NTM

If the state steps in to break this picket it will only make matters worse and more than likely spread to other ports.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k0s3o9w9wk&feature=player_embedded

BlaasForRafa

deravarra wrote: »

Actually, no - but the one thing about iran is that it doesnt pretend to be anything other than a theocracy.

So let me put a question to you:

Migration to/naturalization in Israel - does it or doesnt it have a policy whereby if you are Jewish, you can obtain citizenship by virtue of your being of that religious persuasion?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

When you make an assertion then its up to you to provide proof not for others to provide it for you.

BlaasForRafa

deravarra wrote: »

If you like to make light of a man's death while unarmed and presenting no threat to anyone at the hands of the forces and agents of the country you so often defend, it shows everyone what you are.

What do you think of the expulsion of an Israeli diplomat from ireland over the passport fiasco?

I didn't make light of it. I said I didn't give a flying f**k about it. Are we all expect to comment on every incident here or there? How about the 2 Israeli policemen killed at the weekend by palestinian gunmen at the weekend, should we all have an opinion on that as well?

Scofflaw

OK, this has become rather unpleasantly personal. I'll remind posters - and particularly deravarra, that people's real life affiliations are their own business. Also, the obscenity filter is there for a reason.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

deravarra wrote: »

Oh I think it is - what with israel being a theocratic "state" ...

Actually, no - but the one thing about iran is that it doesnt pretend to be anything other than a theocracy.

So let me put a question to you:

Migration to/naturalization in Israel - does it or doesnt it have a policy whereby if you are Jewish, you can obtain citizenship by virtue of your being of that religious persuasion?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

The answer to that question won't determine whether Israel is a theocratic state, since a theocratic state is one run by the religious according to the dictates of of their god(s).

A religious requirement for citizenship doesn't make a state a theocracy - particularly since in this case it is simply the equivalent of an ethnic requirement for citizenship which takes account of the absence of clear legal 'descent' from original inhabitants of Israel, and substitutes a Jewish identity for the sort of 'birthright' or 'descent' requirements that most states use.

cordially,
Scofflaw

IrishTonyO

Scofflaw wrote: »

The answer to that question won't determine whether Israel is a theocratic state, since a theocratic state is one run by the religious according to the dictates of of their god(s).

A religious requirement for citizenship doesn't make a state a theocracy - particularly since in this case it is simply the equivalent of an ethnic requirement for citizenship which takes account of the absence of clear legal 'descent' from original inhabitants of Israel, and substitutes a Jewish identity for the sort of 'birthright' or 'descent' requirements that most states use.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Not exactly correct, if I am not mistaken, a theocratic state does not have to be run by religious, but a form of government where their god is recognised as the supreme head of state or that their laws are 'divinely' inspired

deravarra

Scofflaw wrote: »

OK, this has become rather unpleasantly personal. I'll remind posters - and particularly deravarra, that people's real life affiliations are their own business. Also, the obscenity filter is there for a reason.

moderately,
Scofflaw

acknowledged - however, it might enlighten other posters as to the reasons behind some postings.

deravarra

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I didn't make light of it. I said I didn't give a flying f**k about it. Are we all expect to comment on every incident here or there? How about the 2 Israeli policemen killed at the weekend by palestinian gunmen at the weekend, should we all have an opinion on that as well?

yes, why not? I have an opinion on it. I would decry it and call it wrong. I would hope the perpetrators would be brought to justice.

Slightly different for the crimes committed by those wearing an Israeli uniform, or those in the agencies of that illegal and terrorist state. They literally get away with murder.

BlaasForRafa

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Not exactly correct, if I am not mistaken, a theocratic state does not have to be run by religious, but a form of government where their god is recognised as the supreme head of state or that their laws are 'divinely' inspired

Like Ireland?

By your measure that makes Ireland a theocratic state since the constitution clears states that the contents are based on Catholic Christianity.

" In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution. "

IrishTonyO

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Like Ireland?

By your measure that makes Ireland a theocratic state since the constitution clears states that the contents are based on Catholic Christianity.

" In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution. "

That does not make god the head of our state.

BlaasForRafa

IrishTonyO wrote: »

That does not make god the head of our state.

a form of government where their god is recognised as the supreme head of state or that their laws are 'divinely' inspired

Your the one that made that statement not me, and the constitution would back up your assertion.

Personally I don't believe that either Ireland or Israel is a theocracy but it wasn't me that started this argument

IrishTonyO

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Your the one that made that statement not me, and the constitution would back up your assertion.

Personally I don't believe that either Ireland or Israel is a theocracy but it wasn't me that started this argument

You said that definition would make Ireland a theocracy, which it would not as Ireland does not state in it's constitution that god is the head of state or that our laws are divinely inspired

deravarra

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Your the one that made that statement not me, and the constitution would back up your assertion.

Personally I don't believe that either Ireland or Israel is a theocracy but it wasn't me that started this argument

Of course you dont. Ireland has no relevance to this whatsoever.

Israel is a theocratic state based on the premise that it upholds and preserves the right of the Jew over everyone else. Dont agree?

Aliyah the "Jewish migration to Israel" - offers plenty of incentives: a free flight to Israel (a one-way ticket, of course), relocation advice, career counseling, free Hebrew language classes, health care and help with a metric ton of forms.

Israel’s Ministry of Immigrant Absorption sweetens the deal with cash payouts to olim — $4,000 per adult, $2,000 per child –– as well as free education through college and even huge reductions on property taxes.

All done for one religion only. One might have no affiliation to the country, convert to Judaism, get a free flight to Israel, a free university place, cheap accomodation, and be given a job.

Why dont they do the same for the Arabs who come from that region (and by virtue of generations of their living there have more of a right to that land)? Dont they realise that its this rubbish which causes problems?

What claim do the Jews have to Israel? It is based on the premise of a biblical story - a convenant with God.

What reasons do they put forward to justify their holding on to West Jerusalem, and a further push into and beyond arab East Jerusalem? A biblical claim that Jerusalem is the rightful capital of Israel.

Iran is oft quoted as being the baddy in the area, but it is the one country in that region where Jews are protected in law, and enjoy a greater amount of religious freedom than muslims do in Israel and the occupied territories.

I'm not a fan of Mahmoud, but he does share the same opinion as the Jews of Iran when he states that Israel as a state is illegal.

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=26711

The Iranian constitution states that Jews and Muslims are equal, and the Jews, along with the Zoroastrians have a seat in parliament to represent their religion.

Does the Israeli government have the same?

Israel is indeed a theocracy.

Zulu

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Like Ireland?

Thankfully we are not in the habbit of executing unarmed aid workers in international waters.

Memnoch

Zulu wrote: »

Thankfully we are not in the habbit of executing unarmed aid workers in international waters.

Did you not hear about the violent attacks on the Israeli Embassy by Irish Terrorism Sympathisers(tm.)?

deravarra

Memnoch wrote: »

Did you not hear about the violent attacks on the Israeli Embassy by Irish Terrorism Sympathisers(tm.)?

Terrorism supporters? Who exactly?

I support the right of the Palestinians to have their own lands back. Does that make me a terrorist supporter?

Nodin

deravarra wrote: »

Israel is indeed a theocracy.

Conversion alone is insufficient, one needs Jewish ancestry. Israels civil laws are not determined by religous law. So no, it isn't, nor is it defined as such by outside agencies.

deravarra

Nodin wrote: »

Conversion alone is insufficient, one needs Jewish ancestry. Israels civil laws are not determined by religous law. So no, it isn't, nor is it defined as such by outside agencies.

And it isnt defined as a terrorist state by many of those outside agencies, but it's actions would suggest otherwise.

Yes, it is a theocracy.

Run_to_da_hills

"Israel has asked the United Nations to suspend attempts to organize an international inquiry into the Israeli raid on an aid flotilla to Gaza last month.

Nine activists on a Turkish vessel died during the incident.

After meeting the UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said an inquiry into the raid should be put on hold, because new attempts to break the blockade are still being organized".

Fresh attempts to break the blockade should have no bearing on any inquiry, Israel is just scared sh*iless that they will be exposed for what they are and are trying their best put it on the long finger hoping it would be forgotten or superseded by something else down the line.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0622/israel.html

wes

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Fresh attempts to break the blockade should have no bearing on any inquiry, Israel is just scared sh*iless that they will be exposed for what they are and are trying their best put it on the long finger hoping it would be forgotten or superseded by something else down the line.

Yeah, very much in agreement, I don't see how that rationale works. Looks like another attempt to make sure the truth doesn't get out.

Memnoch

IMO a backroom deal has already been done to brush all this under the carpet.

This is why the US has not publicly condemned Israel or joined calls for an independent enquiry.

i.e. The US keeps out of it, in exchange, Israel, slowly and over time, so as to lose as little face as possible, lifts its blockade and allows in civilian goods. Maybe other deals were also made regarding settlements.

I'm guessing this is how the US persuaded Turkey to not damage relations with it despite not backing their calls openly.

Nodin

deravarra wrote: »

Yes, it is a theocracy.

Repeating ridiculous claims does not make them true, however it does undermine the advancement of the Palestinian cause.