foxing!!

Anto... · 29-05-2010 4:27pm #1

hi all just a few queries when shooting foxes! with a .22 wmr at lets say 100yds where should you hit the fox? head/chest? also using 40 gr hollow point remington ammo.
and does anyone on here know the drop figures for the 22 wmr using the above ammo?
thanks Anto....

deeksofdoom · 29-05-2010 4:44pm

Call them in as close as you can the .22 wmr is a cumt of a round. You need to be hitting them in the brain or the heart and lungs as close as you can. I shoot with one and its sickening to see a fox that's been hit get up and run off into the bushes.

elius · 29-05-2010 4:48pm

Anto... wrote: »

hi all just a few queries when shooting foxes! with a .22 wmr at lets say 100yds where should you hit the fox? head/chest? also using 40 gr hollow point remington ammo.
and does anyone on here know the drop figures for the 22 wmr using the above ammo?
thanks Anto....

If you dont know what the drop figure's are you should really be getting out on the range a little more lad.

tfox · 29-05-2010 4:54pm

17 HMR all the way

Super fast, super flat !!

But as said, cal them in as close as ya can, makes it more of a challenge to your own bushcraft !! And try out few targets at diffrenent ranges and shooting from different positons to see where your shot is landing !!

Anto... · 29-05-2010 5:55pm

elius wrote: »

If you dont know what the drop figure's are you should really be getting out on the range a little more lad.

ya im just looking to gain some knowlege about the drop figures so i know what i can be expecting on the range

jwshooter · 29-05-2010 6:42pm

Anto... wrote: »

ya im just looking to gain some knowlege about the drop figures so i know what i can be expecting on the range

i shot a lot of foxes with a .22 magnum back in the early 90s ,its is at its limit as is the 17 hmr btw .

zero for 80 yards you will be ok out to 120 .it really is all about shot placement .

set targets at 10 yd intervals out to 150yds and learn for your self ,you will find you how you shoot at all rangers .use a deck of playing cards .

i never tryed the v max or Btips in the .22mag it would bring it to life i would think

jimbrowning · 29-05-2010 7:20pm

Anto... wrote: »

hi all just a few queries when shooting foxes! with a .22 wmr at lets say 100yds where should you hit the fox? head/chest? also using 40 gr hollow point remington ammo.
and does anyone on here know the drop figures for the 22 wmr using the above ammo?
thanks Anto....

i used cci 40 hollow point. good round and only 10e a box of 50. try between the eyes if you can. if not lungs and heart. your kinda pushin a 22 mag out past 100m. try call em in first.

fodda · 29-05-2010 8:57pm

Can i ask a side question to this please.

If you already have a .223 and 2 shotguns could you get a .22 or a .22 magnum aswell for closer things than the .223 where the .223 may be too powerful, or would you have to give up one of the shotguns.?

Reason for asking is dont want to use shotgun for close quarters in one area full of chickens incase they ever ate the lead shot, maybe stupid but one thing that comes to mind sometimes.

Tackleberrywho · 29-05-2010 9:09pm

fodda wrote: »

Can i ask a side question to this please.

If you already have a .223 and 2 shotguns could you get a .22 or a .22 magnum aswell for closer things than the .223 where the .223 may be too powerful, or would you have to give up one of the shotguns.?

Reason for asking is dont want to use shotgun for close quarters in one area full of chickens incase they ever ate the lead shot, maybe stupid but one thing that comes to mind sometimes.

No such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers.

If your FO is happy, then happy days.
If not back to the drawing board.
I would like a .22lr for same reason, Rabbits in the back yard.

head shots then in the pot, .223 is to expensive for 35-40 yard shooting IMHO.

So ask, all they can say, best case yes, worst case No

Cass · 29-05-2010 9:30pm

fodda wrote: »

If you already have a .223 and 2 shotguns could you get a .22 or a .22 magnum aswell for closer things than the .223 .........

Yes, assuming your reason for requesting it is "good enough".

Also do not forget that you will now have 4 unrestricted (i'm assuming the .223 is not a semi auto) firearms thus putting you into the next level (3) of minimum security requirements.

jimbrowning · 29-05-2010 9:33pm

fodda wrote: »

Can i ask a side question to this please.

If you already have a .223 and 2 shotguns could you get a .22 or a .22 magnum aswell for closer things than the .223 where the .223 may be too powerful, or would you have to give up one of the shotguns.?

Reason for asking is dont want to use shotgun for close quarters in one area full of chickens incase they ever ate the lead shot, maybe stupid but one thing that comes to mind sometimes.

a .22lr with a silencer is your man. grate fun and less noise than an air rifle. but if its the lead you dont like, just get a box if steel shot shells 4 the shotgun!

bunny shooter · 29-05-2010 9:38pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

No such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers.

D'Corbus will be impressed

It mainly depends on the attitude of your Super/Chief Super more so than your FO as to the number of firearms they are happy to licence to an individual and as stated above extra security may come into play the more you have.

Tackleberrywho · 29-05-2010 9:55pm

The FO's word carries a lot of weight, the CS often just signs the form on the FO's advice.

The CS will not know the applicant, if the FO says, no issues, sound person, GENERALLY no issues.

Several of my friends got licences in under 3 weeks.
I got a Glock licence in 15 days.

The FO knew I would not be an issue.
This is not exclusively fact , but it helps.
It's nice to be important, It's more important to be nice.

I have nothing but the height of respect for my local FO's as they are very efficient, polite and effective.

I can not speak of other jurisdictions.

I know Ezridax has a few .22 cals so it is possible.
I also know a few no boards members that have 3 .22 cals
.22LR target, .22lr SA for rabbits and .223 for foxes still .224 cal.

bunny shooter · 29-05-2010 10:17pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The FO's word carries a lot of weight, the CS often just signs the form on the FO's advice.

That is not what you implied. You implied the FO makes the decision. They don't. They make recommendations only AFAIK. a "CS" would only be signing off "restricted" licences

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The CS will not know the applicant, if the FO says, no issues, sound person, GENERALLY no issues.

"GENERALLY" is not ALWAYS

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Several of my friends got licences in under 3 weeks.

So have I and some of mine also :P

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I got a Glock licence in 15 days.

My brother got a Tangfoglio .40 S/A pistol in 9 days :P

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The FO knew I would not be an issue.
This is not exclusively fact , but it helps.
It's nice to be important, It's more important to be nice.

Fairly obvious otherwise I doubt he/she would recommend you get a licence :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I have nothing but the height of respect for my local FO's as they are very efficient, polite and effective.

As do I

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I can not speak of other jurisdictions.

Good idea :P

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I know Ezridax has a few .22 cals so it is possible.
I also know a few no boards members that have 3 .22 cals
.22LR target, .22lr SA for rabbits and .223 for foxes still .224 cal.

As I stated it all depends on what your Super/Chief Super will sign off on

declan1980 · 29-05-2010 11:13pm

Anto... wrote: »

ya im just looking to gain some knowlege about the drop figures so i know what i can be expecting on the range

just go to jbm.com and put your bullet data into the ballistic calculator that'll give you all the drop info you'll need

Anto... · 30-05-2010 12:40pm

declan1980 wrote: »

just go to jbm.com and put your bullet data into the ballistic calculator that'll give you all the drop info you'll need

ya tried that but the calculator is extremely complicated!

Tackleberrywho · 30-05-2010 12:52pm

Anto... wrote: »

ya tried that but the calculator is extremely complicated!

Can you use Microsoft excel?
If you imput the points, as many as you can (it will be more accurate, the more points/ranges)
Excel will plot a curve for you showing rise and fall at different ranges.
Just a thought.

Anto... · 30-05-2010 1:38pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Can you use Microsoft excel?
If you imput the points, as many as you can (it will be more accurate, the more points/ranges)
Excel will plot a curve for you showing rise and fall at different ranges.
Just a thought.

hi tac ah microsoft excell no cant use it but will have a go now is it hard to use?

Tackleberrywho · 30-05-2010 5:20pm

Anto... wrote: »

hi tac ah microsoft excell no cant use it but will have a go now is it hard to use?

Not really.
you put in elevation in one row and distance in another and it will plot a graph.
If you go messing with it you will figure it out.
I was just messing about with it there, It's ok to use, not simple if you never have used it before.
Its a trend graph you want

bunny shooter · 30-05-2010 6:38pm

To use only two variables would not make an accurate graph. Most if not all commercial ballistic calculators also use at least Ballistic Coefficient and bullet weight to come up with a trajectory curve.

clivej · 31-05-2010 11:06am

Get your drop balistics from here - all easy to use.

2 from Hawke Scops - just suplly an E-mail address
http://www.hawkeoptics.com/global/brc/index.php

http://www.hawkeoptics.com/global/chairgun/index.php

Or try this on-line one from "Big Game Info.com". I use myself and find it very accurate.
http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?&page=%2fbalcalc.ascx

Tackleberrywho · 31-05-2010 11:14am

clivej wrote: »

Get your drop balistics from it's here easy to use, just suplly an E-mail address.

2 from Hawke Scops
http://www.hawkeoptics.com/global/brc/index.php

http://www.hawkeoptics.com/global/chairgun/index.php

Or try this on-line one from "Big Game Info.com"
http://www.biggameinfo.com/index.aspx?&page=%2fbalcalc.ascx

Well done Cive, You are always there to find the solutions.
It probably is much easier than an excel trend graph to do any way
I don't use them much, but you can get them to crunch numbers and make a graph.

I like Hornady as there data is very close to my actual at this moment in time, if I follow their 200yard zero I hold over 2moa @300 and it has worked to date.
I have not tried 400 or 500 yet, but I will.
I found a field 655yards long yesterday with bunnes on it so it will give me hours of fun over the summer.
I could do with a spotter though

Tackleberrywho · 31-05-2010 11:22am

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Well done Cive, You are always there to find the solutions.
It probably is much easier than an excel trend graph to do any way
I don't use them much, but you can get them to crunch numbers and make a graph.

I like Hornady as there data is very close to my actual at this moment in time, if I follow their 200yard zero I hold over 2moa @300 and it has worked to date.
I have not tried 400 or 500 yet, but I will.
I found a field 655yards long yesterday with bunnes on it so it will give me hours of fun over the summer.
I could do with a spotter though

Clive, I just downloaded the hawake chair gun, It will not do 3000+ Muzzle velocity, says it is out of range. Oh dear, it may do yer mans .22wm but not any bigger. I think Remington have a calculator though

Tackleberrywho · 31-05-2010 11:27am

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Clive, I just downloaded the hawake chair gun, It will not do 3000+ Muzzle velocity, says it is out of range. Oh dear, it may do yer mans .22wm but not any bigger. I think Remington have a calculator though

I used the big game one and imputed .223 Hornady data. .223 is massively down @600 according to this data!
Path
in ComeUp
clicks Velocity
fps Energyft/lbs Momentum
lb ft/s ToF
sec Windage
in Windageclicks Optimal
Game Wgt
-1.5 Infinity 3420 1428 26.87 0.000 0.0 NaN 182
25 -0.5 8 3316 1343 26.05 0.022 0.1 1 165
50 0.3 -2 3214 1261 25.25 0.045 0.2 2 151
75 0.8 -4 3114 1184 24.47 0.069 0.6 3 137
100 1.2 -4 3017 1111 23.70 0.093 1.0 4 125
125 1.3 -4 2922 1042 22.96 0.119 1.6 5 113
150 1.1 -3 2828 977 22.22 0.145 2.3 6 103
175 0.7 -2 2737 915 21.51 0.172 3.2 7 93
200 0.0 0 2648 856 20.80 0.200 4.3 8 84
225 -1.0 2 2560 800 20.12 0.229 5.5 9 76
250 -2.4 4 2474 748 19.44 0.258 6.9 10 69
275 -4.1 6 2391 698 18.78 0.289 8.4 12 62
300 -6.2 8 2309 651 18.14 0.321 10.2 13 56
325 -8.7 10 2228 606 17.51 0.354 12.2 14 50
350 -11.6 13 2149 564 16.89 0.389 14.3 16 45
375 -15.0 15 2072 524 16.28 0.424 16.7 17 40
400 -18.9 18 1996 486 15.68 0.461 19.4 18 36
425 -23.4 21 1921 451 15.10 0.499 22.3 20 32
450 -28.4 24 1849 417 14.53 0.539 25.4 22 29
475 -34.1 27 1778 386 13.97 0.581 28.8 23 26
500 -40.5 31 1710 357 13.43 0.624 32.5 25 23
525 -47.6 35 1643 330 12.91 0.668 36.6 27 20
550 -55.5 39 1579 304 12.41 0.715 40.9 28 18
575 -64.3 43 1517 281 11.92 0.764 45.6 30 16
600 -74.0 47 1457 259 11.45 0.814 50.6 32 14
625 -84.8 52 1400 239 11.00 0.867 56.0 34 12
650 -96.7 57 1347 221 10.58 0.921 61.7 36 11
675 -109.7 62 1296 205 10.18 0.978 67.9 38 10
700 -124.1 68 1249 191 9.81 1.037 74.4 41 9

Cass · 31-05-2010 7:27pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I used the big game one ..............

I have used that one a few times and it was correct to within a click. Considering my scope is 1/8th click value thats pretty good. All the way out to 1,000.

I noticed you used the intervals set on 25yds. Try it at 50 or even 100. You can "guesstimate" the varience in between.

Tackleberrywho · 31-05-2010 8:57pm

ezridax wrote: »

I have used that one a few times and it was correct to within a click. Considering my scope is 1/8th click value thats pretty good. All the way out to 1,000.

I noticed you used the intervals set on 25yds. Try it at 50 or even 100. You can "guesstimate" the varience in between.

Well Sir i will, I have found a 655yard field near me where I have full permision to shoot.
so I look forward to a 600 yard bunny soon.:D:D

Anto... · 31-05-2010 9:07pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Clive, I just downloaded the hawake chair gun, It will not do 3000+ Muzzle velocity, says it is out of range. Oh dear, it may do yer mans .22wm but not any bigger. I think Remington have a calculator though

tac what is a hawke chair gun???

Tackleberrywho · 31-05-2010 9:54pm

Anto... wrote: »

tac what is a hawke chair gun???

One of clives links supplied the second one.
try the big game one, Ezri swears by it.
I'll print it out in work wed and get it laminated for my .223 and .308 to see if it works

Anto... · 31-05-2010 9:57pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

One of clives links supplied the second one.
try the big game one, Ezri swears by it.
I'll print it out in work wed and get it laminated for my .223 and .308 to see if it works

ya just after using it, and it looks very accurate! well thanks for all the advice anyhow lads!
Anto....

Tackleberrywho · 31-05-2010 10:02pm

Anto... wrote: »

ya just after using it, and it looks very accurate! well thanks for all the advice anyhow lads!
Anto....

Post a few pics of your progress!:D
We love to see progress

Anto... · 31-05-2010 10:07pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Post a few pics of your progress!:D
We love to see progress

ill post a few pics of the foxes i get tonite !:rolleyes:

Anto... · 01-06-2010 3:36pm

wasnt out last nite so goin out tonite if the weather is good, was rainin last nite! will still post the pics!

elius · 01-06-2010 11:18pm

tfox wrote: »

17 HMR all the way
Super fast, super flat !!

Ya read the article in this months sporting gun (think that was the magazine)

:p

tfox · 01-06-2010 11:23pm

No I'm afraid not, not a magazine I get. Is it pro or con 17HMR ...?

elius · 01-06-2010 11:30pm

tfox wrote: »

No I'm afraid not, not a magazine I get. Is it pro or con 17HMR ...?

Sitting on the fence mag though i think i'm right in saying the wmr had more energy than the hmr. ill double check tomorrow...

tfox · 01-06-2010 11:36pm

I'm sure it does has more terminal energy as the heaviest round in HMR is only 20gr whereas I think WMR goes upto at least 40gr. My point was that with lightweight bullet zipping along faster shoots very fast and straight, can get less than half inch groups at 100 yds if properly rested !!

Feidhlim Dignan · 02-06-2010 9:59am

not so sure im right but wouldn't a .22 hornet out preform a .17hmr.
i think the hmr is not up to foxes fair enough if you happen to come across one when after rabbits. a friend i lamp with has a .11wmr and it just doesn't have enough poke for foxes with any ammo, have to go for the head with it

vermin hunter · 02-06-2010 10:06am

id have to disagree with you there up to around a 100 yrds the .17 hmr is well able for a fox no quistoin about it

SD308 · 02-06-2010 10:47am

vermin hunter wrote: »

id have to disagree with you there up to around a 100 yrds the .17 hmr is well able for a fox no quistoin about it

I'd second that. I use the 17gn Fed V-Max rounds and with a hit between the eyes on Charlie out to around 100yrds, he drops like a stone every time.

Also, the .17hmr in my opinion has to be the best rabbit gun you can get. I've never had a ricochet, Flat shooting out to 100yrd and great fun learning drop and wind beyond that. Only last Sunday I pushed my longest rabbit kill with the .17hmr out to 235yrds. Zeroed for 50yrd, 16" hold over, hit him in the neck = one dead tasty rabbit.;)

Stephen.

johngalway · 02-06-2010 11:13am

The HMR isn't a reliable fox rifle. I know a number of people, here and abroad, who have had "splash wounds" on foxes, where the light bullet hit bone it couldn't properly penetrate leading to an injured fox getting away. That isn't something we should aspire to.

Centrefire rifles are where it's at for foxes. Anything lesser i.e rimfires, while still lethal against fox, have to be used under much stricter conditions - pinpoint aim, very favourable weather conditions, close range.

Whether it's liked or not, and where there is no question, is that rimfire rifles used against foxes give the shooter a considerably reduced margin of error for pulled shots, unexpected gusts, movement of the animal, and some other factors.

HMR is a very good rabbit and small vermin gun, but marginal on foxes compared to the other options that are available and which should be used in the majority of cases excepting pre-planned ambushing or opportunistic meetings with foxes.

Anto... · 02-06-2010 11:23am

with a 30 gr v max bullet from 22 wmr, isnt that enough power for charlie considering hmr has 17gr v max????? and 22wmr with 40 gr hollow point cci or remmy ammo surely you have to agree this round is perfect for foxes out to 125 yds????:D
works for me all the time unless i miss that is!!

bunny shooter · 02-06-2010 11:51am

johngalway wrote: »

The HMR isn't a reliable fox rifle at centrefire type ranges. eg 0ver 100 yards. I know a number of people, here and abroad, who have had "splash wounds" on foxes at extended ranges, where the light bullet hit bone it couldn't properly penetrate leading to an injured fox getting away. That isn't something we should aspire to.

Centrefire rifles are where it's at for foxes at ranges over 100 yards. Anything lesser i.e rimfires, while still lethal against fox, have to be used under much stricter conditions - pinpoint aim, very favourable weather conditions, close range.

Whether it's liked or not, and where there is no question, is that rimfire rifles used against foxes give the shooter a considerably reduced margin of error for pulled shots, unexpected gusts, movement of the animal, and some other factors so keep them within 100 yards.

HMR is a very good rabbit and small vermin gun, but marginal on foxes over 100 yards compared to the other options that are available and which should be used in the majority of cases excepting pre-planned ambushing or opportunistic meetings with foxes.

+1 except for pieces in bold

SD308 · 02-06-2010 11:52am

johngalway wrote: »

Whether it's liked or not, and where there is no question, is that rimfire rifles used against foxes give the shooter a considerably reduced margin of error for pulled shots, unexpected gusts, movement of the animal, and some other factors.

You put that well, I'd agree with that also.

The 17hmr is a fantastic rabbit gun, in fact it excels in that role. It is also capable of dropping a fox out to around 100yrds, if you're capable of placing the shot. A centrefire, as John who has shot more foxes than I’d every hope to says, is more forgiving of error.

Stephen.

bunny shooter · 02-06-2010 12:00pm

Excellent letter, a reply to a previous letter, in this months "Sporting Rifle" on this subject

johngalway · 02-06-2010 12:33pm

Not really Bunny. Former member on here had a splash wound on a fox at 70 yards, 17grain couldn't penetrate the shoulder in that instance. I think it was eventually shot with a .223 the other side of a ridge.

The problem is, when people actually go outside and away from the computer things don't always go to plan. Placing the shot is great until.... the fox moves, the shot is pulled/rushed, the chosen rest isn't great, etc. It's in those situations the margin of error comes in and you get, bang - runs/limps away, bang - drops/drops close to where it was shot.

tfox · 02-06-2010 1:07pm

Didint mean to turn this into another .17/.22 debate.

The .17 HMR is more than capable of killing a fox out to 100 yds, as long as you place ur shot well !! I've no doubt that .22 centrefire's would outperform it with range and terminal velocity but they also can just wound with a badly placed shot !! And the initial question referred to a .22WMR, nothing about centrefire

The point I would like to make is that in a country where it seems damn near impossible at times to get a firearms licence I think the .17HMR is an ideal all rounder, plus 50 rounds for € 15:D. Bunnies, corvids, squirrels out to 200, foxes to 100, If i was limited to one rifle my .17HMR would definitely be it !!

I think a lot of people are set on the .22 as the only rimfire to be considered, and everyone is entitled to there opinion. But i don't think the .17HMR as an all round vermin round is to be ignored !!

This is just my opinion.

Thomas Fox

bunny shooter · 02-06-2010 1:49pm

johngalway wrote: »

Not really Bunny. Former member on here had a splash wound on a fox at 70 yards, 17grain couldn't penetrate the shoulder in that instance. I think it was eventually shot with a .223 the other side of a ridge.

The problem is, when people actually go outside and away from the computer things don't always go to plan. Placing the shot is great until.... the fox moves, the shot is pulled/rushed, the chosen rest isn't great, etc. It's in those situations the margin of error comes in and you get, bang - runs/limps away, bang - drops/drops close to where it was shot.

I don't doubt you as I had same myself when I had my 1st 17HMR. TBH reason I got rid of it, for a .22 Hornet. BT's are never great when they hit bone in either 17 HMR or even 22 WMR on a fox sized target. There are HP's in 17HMR in 20 grain ? reckon they would be a better choice

If I only had one rifle it would be a 22 Hornet

clivej · 02-06-2010 2:25pm

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Clive, I just downloaded the hawake chair gun, It will not do 3000+ Muzzle velocity, says it is out of range. Oh dear, it may do yer mans .22wm but not any bigger. I think Remington have a calculator though

You are correct in that it don't work as it's made for the air gunners.

But the other program from Hawke is for the centerfire guys.

and works well enough.

The big game is good if the correct info is fed in. Does my 22lr to a treat. Dead rabbits @130y+ zero @55y/50m
22lr drop chart. wind = 10mph.

Anto... · 03-06-2010 1:22pm

what is sectional density and ballistic coefficient mean??:eek:

Tackleberrywho · 03-06-2010 3:05pm

Anto... wrote: »

what is sectional density and ballistic coefficient mean??:eek:

in laymans terms.
Non Technical , sectional density
If you cut a round and looked at what it was made of, lead, lead incased in copper, brass etc.

Lead is a very heavy metal in comparison to say aluminium, so lead is better as a bullet head. Same volume of lead has more sectional density than Aluminum

ballistic coefficient is how good the bullet travels through the air, like some shapes fly better.
There is maths involved but that is it in it's simplest forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_coefficient

clivej · 03-06-2010 7:00pm

Anto... wrote: »

what is sectional density and ballistic coefficient mean??:eek:

If you go to the bullet manufacturers they give the Ballistic Coefficient of each bullet head. You then enter this into the calculator with all the other details.

Example:
22 Cal .224 50 gr V-MAX™
http://www.hornady.com/store/22-Cal-.224-50-gr-V-MAX-250/

For the 22lr drop chart I don't think that is the correct BC it's near and it works OK.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

foxing!!

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