The Teaching Council

taisteal

Is there anyone out there who actually agrees with this organisation? Could someone explain why on earth one should have to pay to be recognised for a qualification they have earned?

What a money making racket. Between registered letters in expensive envelopes, letters sent on expensive paper covered in blue ink and late 'administrative fees' of €10 on top of the €90 annual fee. What a joke!

Surely in this day and age there should be a database with qualified teachers listed instead of paper and postage etc.

TheDriver

there is a database, its called the teaching council!
I don't like them, find them useless but if they did their job and got rid of underperforming teachers etc, then its a good idea. Also to ensure people in teaching have the right qualifications, then thats not a bad idea either. They are not questioning your qualifications but rather if its suitable for teaching....

drusk

TheDriver wrote: »

there is a database, its called the teaching council!
I don't like them, find them useless but if they did their job and got rid of underperforming teachers etc, then its a good idea. Also to ensure people in teaching have the right qualifications, then thats not a bad idea either. They are not questioning your qualifications but rather if its suitable for teaching....

How on earth do you propose they get rid of under-performing teachers? As long as permanency/CID exists, this will never happen.

The only function they are ABLE to serve is to ensure teachers are qualified. Once your qualification has been established and your name has been added to the database, the €90 annual fee becomes farcical.

It's jobs for the boys. A bureaucratic waste of time and money, plain and simple.

Miss Lockhart

Every other profession has a regulatory body so in theory I think the Teaching Council is a good idea. However, all my experiences with the Teaching Council tell me that they are incompetent and incapable of doing their job.

They have proved they are incapable of even deciding if people are suitably qualified. Firstly they don't seem able to consistenly apply their own regulations. Secondly, their regulations are often ridiculous, make no sense, and do not seem to be geared towards ensuring teachers are well qualified.

Regarding getting rid of teachers who are underperforming - this is very tricky but surely not impossible. Surely being permanent or CID can only be possible if you are fit to teach. If you are not fit to teach (for any reason), you should not be able to retain a permanent position. Other professionals can be removed from permanent positions if they are not fit to practice so I think this would be possible for teachers too. Now, how exactly they would determine if a teacher is competent or not is another matter.....

TheColl

they're taking over the responsibility for probation soon i've heard

mick kk

They are a disaster. They have over 60,000 teachers at all levels registered with them which means they get in a huge amount of money. If this organisation was funded by the taxpayer it would have been first to be "bord snipped".

I don't mind paying to register once but to have to pay it every year is ridiculous. Over a 40 year teaching career thats 3, 600 yo yos that you will give this organisation. They spent 100,000 euro this year to fund the costs for teachers who wish to take on further studies...thats the contributions of over 1,100 teachers! If a teacher or any professional wants to take on further studies then fine, but I do not want to pay for it. They celebrate this fact yet its my money and yours....not theirs!

They did one thing this year... a survey, the results of which were that people think teachers do a good job! Now in fairness, I didn't need to give them 90 euro to be told that society has a high regard for my work. I think doctors, nurses, hairdressers, strawberry pickers etc. do great work but do we need it confirmed in a survey which was ever only going to come up with one possible conclusion?

kob29

Why did teachers take a massive paycut and still be charged the 90 euro from this shower for a crappy cert and your name on a register.
This needs to be taken on by the unions. Its a joke

spurious

They certainly need to address the wastage (all funded by our subs) of printing letters on expensive heavy blue paper, issuing everything in both Irish and English, still using paper documents in the main, etc..

I'd love to see what the cost was of sending registered letters to all those teachers who had not paid up. The An Post guy in my delivery office said he had loads of them and that's just one small area of Dublin.

mick kk

unions won't say a thing bad about them...they are represented on the teaching council.

Teaching council fees are much lower in other countries. What kills me about them is that they don't do anything.....they have me registered for example, and as far as I'm concerned they can leave my name on the register until I tell them otherwise. I don't need a registration card...its fine. The amount of money they get to simply collect a list of names and keep that list of names updated is unrea.

I have a funny feeling their could be some failed CSPE teachers running it.

TheDriver

Just remember if you want to go for jobs, promotion etc, you must be registered!
Hopefully they will sort out the problems. Also its not 90 euro a year because the tax credit will reduce it to around 55 euro a year.

mrboswell

In theory great.

In reality a joke.

No point in wasting time talking about it.

amz5

I think they're a bit of a joke (at my expense) but I think that it's particularly unfair that subs and teachers on career break have to pay the full E90. They won't benefit from getting any of it back in tax.

Delphi91

drusk wrote: »

How on earth do you propose they get rid of under-performing teachers? As long as permanency/CID exists, this will never happen...

More than likely in the same way that the Law Society (or is it the Bar Council) and the Medical Council do - by removing ones right to practice ones profession.

At the moment, the Teaching Council are waiting for the Minister for Education to issue to commencement order to that portion of the Teaching Council Act (2001) which will put this process in motion. According to the annual report from the Teaching Council (2008/2009) they made contact with the Minister's office in March of last year and were told that the commencement order was "imminent"

(see pg 16 - http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/TC_Publications/Teaching_Council_Annual_Report_0809_ENG_24563733.pdf)

drusk

Delphi91 wrote: »

More than likely in the same way that the Law Society (or is it the Bar Council) and the Medical Council do - by removing ones right to practice ones profession.

Figuring out whether a lawyer or a doctor is incompetent is fairly straightforward. How do you figure out if a teacher is incompetent? Who determines this (kids, parents, inspectors, exam results), and on what basis (opinion)?

Teaching is a very gray area in terms of measuring performance. Not all, but a lot of it comes down to opinion. We can all have an opinion on what constitutes a good teacher and a bad teacher, but very often our opinions will vary. I'm sure most of us would have quietly disagreed with some of what our inspector's said when we were doing the dip.

I can't see the teaching council ever coming up with a magic formula that allows them to remove a person's right to teach. Theoretically, I agree that they seem wonderful. But in fairness/reality, they are a redundant, wasteful burden on our income.

maynooth_rules

If they did what they were set up to do, then everything would be grand. But during my first year as a qualified teacher(i was registered with the teaching council), I lost out on nearly all my substitution work to another guy who had only done one year in college and had no intention of becoming a teacher. There should be no school in the country who should be allowed employ someone who is not on the teaching council database. God knows there are enough qualified teachers around now who cant get work

EdKeller

This is a summary of how the Teaching Council spent your money. This is directly from their financial summary documents.

We gave them...5.2 Million in fees in 2008

They have a staff of 41 who earned 1.5 Million in wages.
Thats 40K per staff member and as others have said, what were they doing for the year? An earlier comment suggested that they were doing a survey about peoples opinions of teachers. Actually it was carried out by independent market research company, iReach Market. Guess who paid for that.

We gave them 165, 000 to spend on IT. Lets see, thats...over 5 thousand per employee.

Under the title 'other administration costs': 600,000.

The list goes on, those shiny certs and registered 'Late Fine' mail isn't cheap you know!

Even after all this they still have 1.8 million left over! Which means...1.8/5.2...they should reduce the fee by at least a third. Right? Wrong. Apparently this money is needed just in case someone sues the council and to fill their Reserve fund.

They claim they want to help teachers understand what they do and why they are necessary. I've looked at the website and newsletters and I can't figure it out. And as for the fact that the money is tax deductable...after seeing what how the council spend the money, do you think someone struggling to pay a mortgage will say....oh its tax deductable! Here's fifty euro I can't afford for all that worthwhile work you do.

Delphi91

drusk wrote: »

Figuring out whether a lawyer or a doctor is incompetent is fairly straightforward. How do you figure out if a teacher is incompetent? Who determines this (kids, parents, inspectors, exam results), and on what basis (opinion)?...

See pg 16 on the link that I posted in my previous post - it gives the grounds under which a person will be sanctioned. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

dillo2k10

Does any one know how long it takes for them to consider a subject for teaching? The business course as part of the arts degree in maynooth is still under consideration, I have to apply this year and I really wont to do it here as I also want to do geography.

Merch

mick kk wrote: »

They are a disaster. They have over 60,000 teachers at all levels registered with them which means they get in a huge amount of money. If this organisation was funded by the taxpayer it would have been first to be "bord snipped".

I don't mind paying to register once but to have to pay it every year is ridiculous. Over a 40 year teaching career thats 3, 600 yo yos that you will give this organisation. They spent 100,000 euro this year to fund the costs for teachers who wish to take on further studies...thats the contributions of over 1,100 teachers! If a teacher or any professional wants to take on further studies then fine, but I do not want to pay for it. They celebrate this fact yet its my money and yours....not theirs!

They did one thing this year... a survey, the results of which were that people think teachers do a good job! Now in fairness, I didn't need to give them 90 euro to be told that society has a high regard for my work. I think doctors, nurses, hairdressers, strawberry pickers etc. do great work but do we need it confirmed in a survey which was ever only going to come up with one possible conclusion?

As you say doctors, nurses have a similar arrangement regarding registering, lets say a nurse was struck off and unable to practice then surely it is reasonable to have a list updated annually. So how could there only be one possible conclusion? That nurse would justifiably not be able to re-register and hence be unable to practice, next step is probably having the power to enforce a similar situation with teachers but I think it would be more difficult to check.
Maybe they do need to be straightened out but overall seems like a good idea to me.

kob29 wrote: »

Why did teachers take a massive paycut and still be charged the 90 euro from this shower for a crappy cert and your name on a register.
This needs to be taken on by the unions. Its a joke

As has already been mentioned, after the tax credit it is around 50 euro
Plenty of people have taken bigger cuts and were on less to start with.
I hope you're not at the start of a teaching career with that outlook? lets get the unions??

TheFatMan

drusk wrote: »

Figuring out whether a lawyer or a doctor is incompetent is fairly straightforward. How do you figure out if a teacher is incompetent? Who determines this (kids, parents, inspectors, exam results), and on what basis (opinion)?

Teaching is a very gray area in terms of measuring performance. Not all, but a lot of it comes down to opinion. We can all have an opinion on what constitutes a good teacher and a bad teacher, but very often our opinions will vary. I'm sure most of us would have quietly disagreed with some of what our inspector's said when we were doing the dip.

I can't see the teaching council ever coming up with a magic formula that allows them to remove a person's right to teach. Theoretically, I agree that they seem wonderful. But in fairness/reality, they are a redundant, wasteful burden on our income.

**************************************************

All evaluation ultimately comes down to management opinion and evaluation against key performance indicators. Suggesting that this can't be done for teaching professions is absurd. Simply determine the criteria for what is expected of a teacher, train them well, keep their skills current, manage them correctly and manage them out of their position if they fail to perform to the set acceptable standard. You don't have a "right" to teach. You have a job as an educator and should perform to that role accordingly.

Teachers deserve better 1:1 management, to weed out the bad ones, elevate the good ones and to help those inbetween move toward being better at their job.

I'm a private sector manager married to a secondary school teacher and I see daily the management in a school is directed more toward daily operations than toward leadership and management of people.

Miss Lockhart

TheFatMan wrote: »

All evaluation ultimately comes down to management opinion and evaluation against key performance indicators. Suggesting that this can't be done for teaching professions is absurd. Simply determine the criteria for what is expected of a teacher, train them well, keep their skills current, manage them correctly and manage them out of their position if they fail to perform to the set acceptable standard.

But the whole point is that it is not simple to determine the criteria for what is expected of a teacher and it is even less simple to determine an "acceptable standard".

I totally agree that senior management in education could be greatly improved and that there are teachers out there who should not still be in a job. However, there is no way you can just gloss over the difficulties in finding criteria for successful or acceptable teaching standards.

TheFatMan wrote: »

You don't have a "right" to teach.

Did anyone claim they had?

Merch

drusk wrote: »

Figuring out whether a lawyer or a doctor is incompetent is fairly straightforward. How do you figure out if a teacher is incompetent? Who determines this (kids, parents, inspectors, exam results), and on what basis (opinion)?

Teaching is a very gray area in terms of measuring performance. Not all, but a lot of it comes down to opinion. We can all have an opinion on what constitutes a good teacher and a bad teacher, but very often our opinions will vary. I'm sure most of us would have quietly disagreed with some of what our inspector's said when we were doing the dip.

I can't see the teaching council ever coming up with a magic formula that allows them to remove a person's right to teach. Theoretically, I agree that they seem wonderful. But in fairness/reality, they are a redundant, wasteful burden on our income.

Is this what you're looking for Miss?

TheFatMan

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

But the whole point is that it is not simple to determine the criteria for what is expected of a teacher and it is even less simple to determine an "acceptable standard".

I totally agree that senior management in education could be greatly improved and that there are teachers out there who should not still be in a job. However, there is no way you can just gloss over the difficulties in finding criteria for successful or acceptable teaching standards.



Did anyone claim they had?

>>> Yes they did please review the thread!


I did not claim that it was a simple task. I pointed out that we simply must do it. Just because the task is complex and difficult should not stop us from trying. Teachers are too precious about their roles as educators being so complex and different from any other job that it defies normal management practices. The same practices can be applied to all other professions at all levels in other public and private sector professions, education is not an outlier.

Again I would re-iterate that teachers have more to gain personally and professionally from application of strong leadership and management. I think teacher's morale is most negatively impacted when they witness poor quality teaching practice going unchecked in a school.

evolving_doors

Merch wrote: »

As you say doctors, nurses have a similar arrangement regarding registering, lets say a nurse was struck off and unable to practice then surely it is reasonable to have a list updated annually. So how could there only be one possible conclusion? That nurse would justifiably not be able to re-register and hence be unable to practice.

Hmm bit of a daft way to do it
How bout just removing said persons name from list rather than have everyone re-register. Then it'd be up to the employer/payroll to have clearence for the employee before a contract or wages were issued (as it is with the department of ed anyhow!!).



If it looks like a quango, walks like a quango and quacks like a quango then...

I think the real issue is with the unions. What do they have to say about them eh? Well they have nominees who are members and that's all well and good in a chit chat kind of way, BUT WHAT DO THEY DOOOOOOOO

Rosita

TheFatMan wrote: »

[/B]
>>> Yes they did please review the thread!


I did not claim that it was a simple task. I pointed out that we simply must do it. Just because the task is complex and difficult should not stop us from trying. Teachers are too precious about their roles as educators being so complex and different from any other job that it defies normal management practices. The same practices can be applied to all other professions at all levels in other public and private sector professions, education is not an outlier.

Again I would re-iterate that teachers have more to gain personally and professionally from application of strong leadership and management. I think teacher's morale is most negatively impacted when they witness poor quality teaching practice going unchecked in a school.

But remarks such as 'education is not an outlier' and 'application of strong leadership and management' are terribly vague. I worked in the private sector before I went into teaching and was involved in performance reviews many times. Frankly I found the whole experience rather meaningless and a 'going through the motions' exercise much of the time despite the 'edge of the seat' rhetoric we tend to hear from those in the private sector. But leaving that aside I would have to say that teaching is an incomparably different environment to any other one I have known from a performance measurement perspective. Unless I am missing something really obvious that you might suggest in relation to performance measurement.

For example, the most superficially attractive measure i.e. results, certainly measure nothing about teachers. I am teaching an Honours Junior Cert class and they will inevitably do better than the class of the teachers who are teaching the pass classes. I would never accept that this makes me a better teacher than them. In fact I am almost certainly not a better teacher right now because I am relatively inexperienced. So just because something can be measured does not make it a meaningful measure.

So, in specific terms, how would you measure a teacher's performance? Please do not interpret the very asking of the question as an implication that I would oppose measurement of teachers' performance. Far from it. But if it can be done, as you suggest, in a manner that "can be applied to all other professions at all levels in other public and private sector professions" it would be good to have this method amplified in specific terms.

drusk

TheFatMan wrote: »

You don't have a "right" to teach.

My apologies. By "right" to teach, I meant "qualification" to teach. Removing someone's qualification to do something is major, and that's what I was getting at.

Apologies for the confusion.

Miss Lockhart

Merch wrote: »

Is this what you're looking for Miss?

I assume this is for my benefit, although I'm sure there are many "Misses" on the thread. Thank you for pointing it out.

TheFatMan wrote: »

>>> Yes they did please review the thread!

I'm not sure if this is an order or just an emphatic statment, but thank you for the advice. I have reviewed the thread and the post prior to yours helpfully pointed out the relevant comment. It was a simple question - easily answered.

TheFatMan wrote: »

Teachers are too precious about their roles as educators being so complex and different from any other job that it defies normal management practices. The same practices can be applied to all other professions at all levels in other public and private sector professions, education is not an outlier.

I have come to teaching from another profession where I worked in the private sector. I also worked for several years in other private companies. I am very familiar with private sector performance reviews. I am not "precious" about anything. As I already said, I think management in schools could be greatly improved and that there are definitley teachers that should not be teaching.

As yet I have not heard anyone, whether involved in or outside of education, put forward a realistic, workable, worthwhile model for performance reviews in primary or second level education.

TheFatMan wrote: »

Again I would re-iterate that teachers have more to gain personally and professionally from application of strong leadership and management. I think teacher's morale is most negatively impacted when they witness poor quality teaching practice going unchecked in a school.

As I already said, I would love to see a huge improvement of senior management in schools. Personally, my morale is most negatively impacted when people insist on tarring all teachers with the same brush and making sweeping generalisations about them as a group.

Fizzical

TheFatMan wrote: »

[/B]
Again I would re-iterate that teachers have more to gain personally and professionally from application of strong leadership and management. I think teacher's morale is most negatively impacted when they witness poor quality teaching practice going unchecked in a school.

Teachers do have a lot to gain from good leadership and management. Your qualifier of 'strong' leadership and management is, however, derogatory.

As a teacher of many years and students, my morale was most negatively impacted when I witnessed poor quality leadership and management going unchecked in my school, and for many years.

It nearly made my leave my profession.

But when I considered the professionalism of my colleagues, it convinced me that the teachers are what make the school and I stayed because I was part of their team.

As the years go by, though, and my colleagues retire, I can see that the management has managed to change the spirit of the place - by hiring many part-time teachers on low hours, running them ragged and treating them like hired help. These young, poorly paid teachers are excellent at what they do but they are now acting like hired help and not like professionals leading the development of the school and its ethos. They don't have a sense of ownership of the school, they just do what they're told.

It's very sad.

mick5344

What happens if you don't pay the annual subscription. I received a letter today stating that they no longer provide a salary deduction service. The only option is a once off payment of €90 to these wasters.

Can someone tell what happens if you simply let your subscription lapse. I am in a permanent position and have no intentions of moving nor seeking promotion this year.

Delphi91

There are a couple of issues here.

First of all, anyone who is in receipt of a salary as a teacher is legally obliged to be on the register.

Secondly, and you've mentioned this one, you will not be appointed to any teaching post if you have let your registration lapse. I am aware of a situation where a person was appointed Principal of a school, but it was discovered that their registration had lapsed. The post was withdrawn from them.

Thirdly, if you were one of the teachers who was in situ when the teaching council was set in motion and had yourself registered automatically, should you let your registration lapse, you will then have to go through the procedure of registration as if you were just entering the profession i.e. submit your transcripts, get Gardai clearance, etc. I believe the rules for acceptance of subjects for registration has changed recently.

Have a look at this page: http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/faqs/default.asp?NCID=622

mick kk

folks,
we need to do something about this - 90 euro is simply not on - you can't pay What angers me is that it is a total waste of money - if I felt I got something in return for it I would say fair enough but you get a cheap plastic card to put in the recycling bin.
You can't pay every fortnight anymore either - time for us all to start ringing and emailing and maybe if enough people contact them, they might start to listen.


The Teaching Council
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