Atonment or waiting to move on?

jimbling

prinz wrote: »

Nothing, because she is completely oblivious to her life and death on island. The only way someone can be atoning is if they have full knowledge of their previous life and death - Ben, Eloise etc. The others are just living their life over IMO.

Ah right, I see the side you're coming from prinz, although I don't think that's the same angle as Mr. Nice Guy.

cooker3

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I would say Keamy and Mikhail were there to atone also.

So the next question is... Can you atone by making awesome eggs?

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

Also, although Anna Lucia makes sense with the concept of Atonement, Alex obviously does not. What is she atoning for?

Atonement is probably a bad description of it as it implies the Christian view of purgatory and that they are working through sins. As I said before I think the characters have to work through their flaws in order to move on but I don't think the flaws are necessarily sins, although in some cases I'd say they are.

Maybe fulfilment is a better description for it than atonement.

My view on Alex was that her flaw, and the reason she was there, was to try and patch up her relationship with Ben in order for her to be at peace with herself, though I do think prinz's theory is pretty good also.

cooker3 wrote:

So the next question is... Can you atone by making awesome eggs?

Ha this seems to be his only good point. Perhaps he is there just for his egg-making skills.

SillyMonkey

Yeah IMO don't think atonement is right. I mean Christian specifically said that the flash sideways was a place they all made so they could find each other after they died.

Speaking selfishly why would you create a place just for you to atone for your sins before moving on. Sure wouldn't all the christian losties be going to the real purgatory after the meet-up anyway to really atone. I don't think they will want to do that twice.:D

As for Ben(and everything he did) if he knows he's going to the real purgatory after this place would you be in any rush to go. Maybe he's too happy with Alex and Rousseau to move on.

opinion guy

SillyMonkey wrote: »

I don't think they will want to do that twice.:D

Apparently they do do it twice. Since DeadMichael told us the whispers who couldn't move on, and then the finale tells us you go to imagination land after you die to come to terms before you move on. Writer FAIL

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Apparently they do do it twice. Since DeadMichael told us the whispers who couldn't move on, and then the finale tells us you go to imagination land after you die to come to terms before you move on. Writer FAIL

Okay, some people are interpreting it that way, but at no point was it said that "imagination land" as you say it is where you go to come to terms before you move on.
The only thing that was specifically stated is that it is an in between place where they could all find each other or basically the people most important too them so that they passed to the next world together.

So I don't see any problem with it working the way suggested. i.e. the ghosts on the island are atoning, or can't deal with what they have done in there lives etc.
Once they do come to terms with it they move on...... maybe they bypass the Limbo world, maybe they do not. Maybe they go into Limbo and like the normal losties they just have no recollection of there lives or there period of atonement as a ghost.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

Okay, some people are interpreting it that way, but at no point was it said that "imagination land" as you say it is where you go to come to terms before you move on.
The only thing that was specifically stated is that it is an in between place where they could all find each other or basically the people most important too them so that they passed to the next world together.

So I don't see any problem with it working the way suggested. i.e. the ghosts on the island are atoning, or can't deal with what they have done in there lives etc.
Once they do come to terms with it they move on...... maybe they bypass the Limbo world, maybe they do not. Maybe they go into Limbo and like the normal losties they just have no recollection of there lives or there period of atonement as a ghost.

Ben said it. ben said he wanted to stay to come to terms did he not ?

Come on. Stop making excuses for the complete lack of consistency

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Ben said it. ben said he wanted to stay to come to terms did he not ?

Come on. Stop making excuses for the complete lack of consistency

No, he did not.... he said "I still have some things I need to work out". nothing about coming to terms with anything or atoning for anything.

Also, it was made pretty obvious that Ben "could" have moved on if he wanted to. He was volunteering to stay.
However, Michael on the Island was stuck there as a ghost.... he didn't want to be there.

I would assume Ben was talking about Rousseau and Alex.... that is what has shown to be important to him through the Flash Sideways. He nearly started crying when Rousseau mentioned that Alex saw him as a father figure.

Johnmb

Although we don't know that Michael was still on the island at that stage, just that he didn't move on with the other losties. He likely moved on with Walt once he was ready and able.

opinion guy

cooker3 wrote: »

So the next question is... Can you atone by making awesome eggs?

No, but I'd imagine its a good start

RolandIRL

i think that the purgatory was created by the losties for the losties. it was their way of remembering their lives, realising how important they and their time together was, and finally moving on into the light.

there were others in purgatory who wanted to redeem themselves (like ben) and others who didn't realise their "alive" life (not purgatory life) eg ana lucia. obviously she wouldn't move on with them as she didn't seem to have any trigger (or circumstance) to remember her "alive" life.
she must have something else in her life that will make her remember but she's not of importance to the losties.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

No, he did not.... he said "I still have some things I need to work out". nothing about coming to terms with anything or atoning for anything.

Wha? If he said he has some things to work out and this is why he can't go inside, that surely implies that he has some stuff to do before he can join the rest of them.

jimbling wrote:

Also, it was made pretty obvious that Ben "could" have moved on if he wanted to. He was volunteering to stay.

This wasn't made obvious at all.

Do you really honestly think Ben is 'ready' to move on in the way the others in the church are? If he is why does he show up and sit outside the church?

The indication it seems to me is that he'd LIKE to move on but as he says himself he has some things he needs to work out first.

jimbling

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Wha? If he said he has some things to work out and this is why he can't go inside, that surely implies that he has some stuff to do before he can join the rest of them.

Some stuff to do is not the same as coming to terms with things. They have completely different meanings and connotations.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This wasn't made obvious at all.

Do you really honestly think Ben is 'ready' to move on in the way the others in the church are? If he is why does he show up and sit outside the church?

The indication it seems to me is that he'd LIKE to move on but as he says himself he has some things he needs to work out first.

I didn't say he was ready. All I said is that I don't believe he is trying to "come to terms" with anything.

I think Ben sits outside the Church as he knows the others are leaving. He probably at one point considered going with them. He decided not to. He even said to Hurley...."No, I think I'll stay a while, I have some things I need to work out". And he said it with a smile on his face.
All that indicates that he could probably leave with the rest of them if he wanted to, but he realised he wanted to leave with Alex, not the Losties.


At the end of the day we have different interpretations, that's not going to change... and is fine. I was replying to Opinion Guy who is suggesting that the guys in Limbo are doing the same thing as the ghosts that were stuck on the Island.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

Some stuff to do is not the same as coming to terms with things. They have completely different meanings and connotations.

Ah come on. OK I'll rephrase 'some stuff to do' with Ben's words - 'some things I need to work out'

Does this not suggest having to come to terms with something?

jimbling wrote:

I didn't say he was ready. All I said is that I don't believe he is trying to "come to terms" with anything.

I think Ben sits outside the Church as he knows the others are leaving. He probably at one point considered going with them. He decided not to. He even said to Hurley...."No, I think I'll stay a while, I have some things I need to work out". And he said it with a smile on his face.
All that indicates that he could probably leave with the rest of them if he wanted to, but he realised he wanted to leave with Alex, not the Losties.

At the end of the day we have different interpretations, that's not going to change... and is fine. I was replying to Opinion Guy who is suggesting that the guys in Limbo are doing the same thing as the ghosts that were stuck on the Island.

Well it certainly is open to interpretation as I think the bit you put in bold was just a simple phrase to Hurley. I think the bit that should be put in bold is this bit:

..."I have some things I need to work out"

I think that indicates as much as Ben would like to go inside he is not permitted to do so. Yes we have different interpretations but you act as if your one is the only correct one.

jimbling

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Ah come on. OK I'll rephrase 'some stuff to do' with Ben's words - 'some things I need to work out'

Does this not suggest having to come to terms with something?

No, it suggests he has some things to work out.
All I am saying is that this is with regards to Alex and moving on with her.
What ye are saying is that it means he can not pass on until he has come to terms with things he did in his actual life. (Which is what I think the Ghosts on the Island had to do)

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well it certainly is open to interpretation as I think the bit you put in bold was just a simple phrase to Hurley. I think the bit that should be put in bold is this bit:

..."I have some things I need to work out"

I think that indicates as much as Ben would like to go inside he is not permitted to do so.

I just completely disagree. It didnt even remotely look like Ben wanted to go inside. In fact the opposite. He looked/sounded very happy about staying.... It looked/sounded like he was looking forward to the process of working things out.
I've watched the scenes a few times and this is what I take from it every time.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yes we have different interpretations but you act as if your one is the only correct one.

Nope, I act like I believe my one is the correct one.

Look, basically, I do not believe any of the losties were there to come to terms with things they had done in there actual life. I do not believe they were there to atone for anything.
So, any point you put forward to argue that they were, I am going to look at and answer with the reasons I disagree...... that's what a debate/discussion is. I think I'm being quite reasonable in my points. And nobody has made any points to convince me that I am wrong.

Discussions dont have to be resolved by us agreeing. It's just interesting... and I find it fun.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

At the end of the day we have different interpretations, that's not going to change... and is fine. I was replying to Opinion Guy who is suggesting that the guys in Limbo are doing the same thing as the ghosts that were stuck on the Island.

Yes but DeadMichael didn't say he had to atone either. He just said things to work out or something. Its swings and roundabouts really. They just made a bunch of stuff up that had no coherence. Thats good enough for some people but not for others.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling, I'm not interested in a big back and forth quote-fest so I'll just address the main points of your last post.

OK, so if I understand this, we both agree Ben has things to work out in the sideways. I take this to mean he needs to do this in order to move on, (like I would argue Jack had to), whereas you think Ben can move on already if he wants to but he chooses to stay. Obviously we differ on the severity of the things Ben did and the importance of having to work through flaws, but I think at least that clarifies things.

I'm surprised you think Ben sounded happy outside the church. I did not get that vibe at all. I thought he looked and sounded like a man resigned to his fate. He knew he didn't deserve to go in like Hurley and Locke, but he was nonetheless happy for Hurley and Locke to be able to do so.

Lastly, you say discussions don't have to be resolved by us agreeing, but I think in a debate/discussion it's helpful to actually try and see the other person's perspective you're arguing against which I don't think you do. I thought we had reached some level of understanding towards our respective interpretations but from reading your comments to opinion guy I get the sense you don't want to countenance other possible explanations. For example, saying it was "pretty obvious" Ben could have moved on if he wanted to which I think is highly contentious - and ultimately wrong. Sounds like our previous discussions haven't been worthwhile at all.

Considering this thread was set up to, as I perceived it, try and get third parties on the forum to decide which one of us was right and which one was wrong, obviously I am going to respond to statements which appear to crap all over my own views. However while you say the disagreements are fun, tbh I'm not interested in going round and round in circles on stuff that I feel has already been touched upon.

You can have the last word on this jimbling (like you wouldn't ) but I'd like to stress that as much as you may like to think otherwise, there are interpretations on the show's finale that differ from your own interpretation, and I would maintain my interpretation is logical and sound.

jimbling

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

jimbling, I'm not interested in a big back and forth quote-fest so I'll just address the main points of your last post.

When I was talking about the back and fourth I'm not necessarily talking about with just you. I just mean the general discussion. I would like more people to come in with their opinion on it.
It does seem a few people agree with you and a few people think it's a bit of both. I have not even re stated my points to those people. I am accepting opinions.
But.... Opinion Guy posted stuff that I felt was not really open for debate. I would have thought it was "pretty obvious" that the Ghosts on the Island were different to the dead in Limbo.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

OK, so if I understand this, we both agree Ben has things to work out in the sideways. I take this to mean he needs to do this in order to move on, (like I would argue Jack had to), whereas you think Ben can move on already if he wants to but he chooses to stay. Obviously we differ on the severity of the things Ben did and the importance of having to work through flaws, but I think at least that clarifies things.

I just dont think the things Ben did in his life have any effect on Limbo. To me it has clearly been described (by Christian) as a place created by the losties in order to find one another and move on. i.e. it's a place to find the people that were most important to you in your life and move on.

The Atonement stuff is all coming from the fact that some people "Are not ready yet" and Ben felt that he had "Things to work out". So, I feel it's a bit of a leap to say that Limbo is about coming to terms with things etc. I was just taking those statements and saying you didnt have to look at it that way.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm surprised you think Ben sounded happy outside the church. I did not get that vibe at all. I thought he looked and sounded like a man resigned to his fate. He knew he didn't deserve to go in like Hurley and Locke, but he was nonetheless happy for Hurley and Locke to be able to do so.

Ya, but don't you think it was a happy resignation? I don't know, as I said I keep getting the same thing from it..... I'll watch again later with your side in mind.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Lastly, you say discussions don't have to be resolved by us agreeing, but I think in a debate/discussion it's helpful to actually try and see the other person's perspective you're arguing against which I don't think you do. I thought we had reached some level of understanding towards our respective interpretations but from reading your comments to opinion guy I get the sense you don't want to countenance other possible explanations. For example, saying it was "pretty obvious" Ben could have moved on if he wanted to which I think is highly contentious - and ultimately wrong. Sounds like our previous discussions haven't been worthwhile at all.

Well, you are taking it the wrong way.... I do see your side Mr. Nice Guy...... But just because I see it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. :pac:

I had completely accepted your side of the argument. The only reason this started up again was because Opinion Guy came in to say that he thought that the Limbo was just a repetition of what the Ghosts on the Island had to do. Why should I not debate that when I think it's almost certainly wrong??

Honestly, its swings and roundabouts. You got upset because I said "pretty obvious"... but come on, everything here is opinion and perception. I still stand by that. And how does you saying that I am ultimately wrong fit into your idea of seeing the other persons side of something that's open for interpretation?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Considering this thread was set up to, as I perceived it, try and get third parties on the forum to decide which one of us was right and which one was wrong, obviously I am going to respond to statements which appear to crap all over my own views. However while you say the disagreements are fun, tbh I'm not interested in going round and round in circles on stuff that I feel has already been touched upon.

Yes, that is why I set up the thread. I hoped some of the regular posters would get involved in this......

I never meant to "crap" all over your views.... and I don't know why you would think that. I just disagreed with them. I could say the same about you on mine to be honest.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You can have the last word on this jimbling (like you wouldn't ) but I'd like to stress that as much as you may like to think otherwise, there are interpretations on the show's finale that differ from your own interpretation, and I would maintain my interpretation is logical and sound.

Yes, I like to have the last word , but in fairness, it's not like I couldn't respond to this post :eek: