Atonment or waiting to move on?

jimbling

Right, myself and Mr. Nice Guy were having a discussion on this last night.

We had completely different interpretations of what Limbo world was... what meaning it had.

Mr. Nice Guy
He thought that everybody in the Limbo world was atoning for things done in their real life.
He felt that the reason some people were "not ready yet" was because they still have things to atone for.
Anna Lucia been a prime example. He also felt that Ben stayed as he still had things to atone for and wanted to make up for past discretions by being a good father to Alex etc.

If I have misinterpreted anything, or you have anything to add feel free to let me know.

Me
I never thought it was implied that there was a level of atonement within Limbo. I believe it was purely created by the losties (that doesn't really make sense, but hey, it's the Losts writers afterworld, they can do what they want) for the losties in order so they could meet up with the people that were most important too them and move on to the next world.

I reckon the people that were not ready to move on were just that. Not ready. They hadn't connected with the people most important too them etc etc.

I believe Ben merely wanted to stay as Alex wasn't ready to move on yet and he wanted to pass over with the person that mattered most to him. His adopted daughter.





Note: Also, can we please refrain from having posts like "They were all dead from the start" etc.... just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo world.

How Soon Is Now

jimbling wrote: »

Right, myself and Mr. Nice Guy were having a discussion on this last night.

We had completely different interpretations of what Limbo world was... what meaning it had.

Mr. Nice Guy
He thought that everybody in the Limbo world was atoning for things done in their real life.
He felt that the reason some people were "not ready yet" was because they still have things to atone for.
Anna Lucia been a prime example. He also felt that Ben stayed as he still had things to atone for and wanted to make up for past discretions by being a good father to Alex etc.

If I have misinterpreted anything, or you have anything to add feel free to let me know.

Me
I never thought it was implied that there was a level of atonement within Limbo. I believe it was purely created by the losties (that doesn't really make sense, but hey, it's the Losts writers afterworld, they can do what they want) for the losties in order so they could meet up with the people that were most important too them and move on to the next world.

I reckon the people that were not ready to move on were just that. Not ready. They hadn't connected with the people most important too them etc etc.

I believe Ben merely wanted to stay as Alex wasn't ready to move on yet and he wanted to pass over with the person that mattered most to him. His adopted daughter.





Note: Also, can we please refrain from having posts like "They were all dead from the start" etc.... just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo world.

To be honest i see it as a bit of both really.

prinz

I think there was an aspect of both involved. Obviously they weren't forced to stay behind... so atonement isn't really flying. If Ben wanted to leave he could have, surely if it's atonement you could only leave when it was decided yu had atoned enough. IMO it was just waiting to move on... some people didn't realise they were actually dead yet (Ana Lucia/Charles Widmore ) so they just lived on in ignorance in the 'purgatory' whereas Ben knew he was dead but chose to stay to enjoy the time with Alex, Eloise knew she was dead but wanted to stay to enjoy her time too. They weren't ready to move on, but I don't think they were forced to atone for anything in order to 'buy' their way out.

Hrududu

I'm not sure about the atonement thing. People like Sayid, Sawyer and Kate, who all killed people, got to move on. But people like Daniel, Miles and Charlotte, didn't.

karma_

I think it's more of a case of being with your own particular circle of buddies before 'moving on'.

This just wasn't Ben's crew so to speak, he possibly is linked with Alex, Rosseau, Tom, or maybe even people we didn't get to meet in the show, so he will go off now and perform the Desmond role for his buddies before moving on, so he was just there to say goodbye to this lot.

I think...

Likewise Daniel will possibly do the same for Charlotte etc.

opinion guy

So tell me this. If Charlie was in imagination land waiting to ascend or whatever it is they do at the end, how did he appear to Hurley as dead Charlie when Hurley was in the mental institution ?

I'd quit looking for meaning if I were you guys they shamelessly just made it all up as they went along

How Soon Is Now

opinion guy wrote: »

So tell me this. If Charlie was in imagination land waiting to ascend or whatever it is they do at the end, how did he appear to Hurley as dead Charlie when Hurley was in the mental institution ?

I'd quit looking for meaning if I were you guys they shamelessly just made it all up as they went along

Because Charlie died before Hurley did with in the island timeline he talked to Hurley. There is no real timeline in Purgatory so Charlie being there makes no difference they all died at different times but all had to meet for them to move on.

opinion guy

angerfist2009 wrote: »

Because Charlie died before Hurley did with in the island timeline he talked to Hurley. There is no real timeline in Purgatory so Charlie being there makes no difference they all died at different times but all had to meet for them to move on.

Yes but the clear implication was they came to imagination land as soon as they died. Come on - don't defend it - its a glaring inconsistency that makes no sense

karma_

Yes, given the timespan of Jacob being in charge on teh island, the whole end episode could be something like 2000 years later, which leaves enough elbow room to explain things like that.

How Soon Is Now

opinion guy wrote: »

Yes but the clear implication was they came to imagination land as soon as they died. Come on - don't defend it - its a glaring inconsistency that makes no sense

How do you know who died when though???? If you go by the fact that it was stated that there was no proper timeline only that they all join up in the end then really anything any of the characters did in the on island timeline will not clash with Purgatory.

It all boils down to the fact that they all died at different stages in there journey but all went together at the end.

opinion guy

angerfist2009 wrote: »

How do you know who died when though???? If you go by the fact that it was stated that there was no proper timeline only that they all join up in the end then really anything any of the characters did in the on island timeline will not clash with Purgatory.

It all boils down to the fact that they all died at different stages in there journey but all went together at the end.

Don't you think that bolded bit is convenient thou ? They might have well just said aliens abducted them all. Or a wizard did it.

You don't get this time business. Christian more or less said that as soon as you die you end up in this purgatory place. When they die is irrelevant. You die you go to imagination land. No running around in the bushes whispering and appearing to people sh1te

jimbling

Okay, Opinion Guy, that's a completely different discussion. How Charlie appeared to Hurley is irrelevant to this debate. So is when Charlie died, or if him appearing to Hurley had anything at all to do with the Limbo side of things.

Can we keep this on topic and discuss other aspects in different threads. This is merely to discuss the possibility of whether the Limbo was in any way related to atonement for what they did in there actual lives.

I dont think it did, and majority of responses so far seem to agree.... although some keep it in a grey area.

gazzer

opinion guy wrote: »

So tell me this. If Charlie was in imagination land waiting to ascend or whatever it is they do at the end, how did he appear to Hurley as dead Charlie when Hurley was in the mental institution ?

I'd quit looking for meaning if I were you guys they shamelessly just made it all up as they went along

Hurley was able to see dead people though. It wasnt just Charlie he saw. He was able to see Richards wife also. I think it was just his gift.

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Don't you think that bolded bit is convenient thou ? They might have well just said aliens abducted them all. Or a wizard did it.

You don't get this time business. Christian more or less said that as soon as you die you end up in this purgatory place. When they die is irrelevant. You die you go to imagination land. No running around in the bushes whispering and appearing to people sh1te

Again, different discussion, bring it up in the episode thread or create a new one.
You obviously aren't grasping the concept of not time, or timeless. It is a tricky thing to grasp and there is no perfect answer too it.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

Okay, Opinion Guy, that's a completely different discussion. How Charlie appeared to Hurley is irrelevant to this debate. So is when Charlie died, or if him appearing to Hurley had anything at all to do with the Limbo side of things.

Can we keep this on topic and discuss other aspects in different threads. This is merely to discuss the possibility of whether the Limbo was in any way related to atonement for what they did in there actual lives.

I dont think it did, and majority of responses so far seem to agree.... although some keep it in a grey area.

Jimbling wouldl you do me a favour ??? Stop trying to back seat mod me ok ?

As to whether it was about seeking atonement. Obviously not. It was about coming to terms with their issues. Which is a different thing. For example Sayid. He didn't exactly atone himself in alt reality by what....killing a few more people ??

Farce I tell you. The purpose was to give everyone a happy ending for US audiences. That is all.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

You obviously aren't grasping the concept of not time, or timeless. It is a tricky thing to grasp and there is no perfect answer too it.

Yes I do very much grasp it. The rest of you seem to be missing it however.

How Soon Is Now

opinion guy wrote: »

Jimbling wouldl you do me a favour ??? Stop trying to back seat mod me ok ?

As to whether it was about seeking atonement. Obviously not. It was about coming to terms with their issues. Which is a different thing. For example Sayid. He didn't exactly atone himself in alt reality by what....killing a few more people ??

Farce I tell you. The purpose was to give everyone a happy ending for US audiences. That is all.

The purpose as far as i can see for purgatory was for them to find there way to be able to ''let go'' Sayid found this when he finally found the women he wanted to be with Shannon. They all found there reasons to let go and move on thats what it was all about.

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Jimbling wouldl you do me a favour ??? Stop trying to back seat mod me ok ?

As to whether it was about seeking atonement. Obviously not. It was about coming to terms with their issues. Which is a different thing. For example Sayid. He didn't exactly atone himself in alt reality by what....killing a few more people ??

Farce I tell you. The purpose was to give everyone a happy ending for US audiences. That is all.

Opinion Guy, I asked in the thread title to keep it on topic and only discuss the atonement. You take it off topic immediately and you think I'm back seat modding for pointing that out?
I was very civil about it and just suggested you to take it to another thread. I did not say you deserved a banning or an infraction or anything.
To make you happy, I'll report your post instead of commenting about it again.


I thought it was obvious too, but plenty people were disagreeing with me in the main thread....hence, this thread.

opinion guy

No you didn't say keep it on topic.
you said

Also, can we please refrain from having posts like "They were all dead from the start" etc.... just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo world.

I did not say they were all dead.
Reporting you for back seat modding. My posts were within the scope of the topic in my opinion. I suggest you accept that just because you start a thread does not mean you can dictate exactly what is discussed

Basq

opinion guy and jimbling..

Will ye both settle down? If you can't discuss stuff without pissing and moaning, I'll close the thread here and now.

Ease up on this back-seat modding crap!

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

No you didn't say keep it on topic.
you said

jimbling wrote: »

just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo

I obviously clearly stated what I wanted to talk about. You even quoted it.

basquille wrote: »

opinion guy and jimbling..

Will ye both settle down? If you can't discuss stuff without pissing and moaning, I'll close the thread here and now.

Ease up on this back-seat modding crap!

Sorry basquille, will stop now. But in my opinion he is purposely goading me and taking the thread off topic.
I started this thread for a specific purpose to continue a discussion and ask peoples opinions on a very specific matter. I made it very clear in my post and I was nothing but polite to Opinion Guy about that. I don't feel I need to settle down in the least.

Please don't close this thread, but feel free to delete all the redundant posts.

jimbling

From the other posts in this thread there genuinely seems to be a difference of opinion on the matter. I find that intriguing, although I am still unsure where the atonement side of things is coming from.

jimbling

Not many people are commenting on this, perhaps I should have just made it a poll.... I would have, but I dont know how to add one

What I'm not sure about is if people are not commenting because they think it's obvious that it is one way or the other, or whether they think it's a bit of both such as the first few posters mentioned.

Where are you Mr. Nice Guy?

prinz

jimbling wrote: »

What I'm not sure about is if people are not commenting because they think it's obvious that it is one way or the other, or whether they think it's a bit of both such as the first few posters mentioned.

I think it's obvious it's a bit of both. Any atonement done is strictly on a voluntary basis (in keeping with the rest of the show) so to say it's a place to atone isn't strictly true IMO. It's just a place, it's up to you what you choose to do there, whether to atone - possible Ben, or whether to just postpone the inevitable to reconnect with people - Eloise, whether to just reimagine your life the way you wish it had been - Hurley, Ben, Sawyer, Jack, or whether it's a place you are completely ignorant and relive your life exactly as you had done before - Kate, Ana Lucia etc. It's a place that can be whatever each person wants it to be.

Mr.Nice Guy

Well if I may put my view across in my own words...

My opinion is that there is a definite spiritual element to the last episode of the show and I think the iconography on the windows is a big nod towards that. We get to see symbols from various religions which I interpret to mean that this flash sideways is a form of purgatory, though not the one from Christian belief.

Throughout the series we have been told that the characters in the show are 'flawed'. Mikhail said so and I believe Jacob said as much this season also. I think the characters, like Jack, have to work through their flaws in their lives before they can 'move on' as Christian put it. I don't think the 'flaws' are necessarily sins, but in some cases they are, ie Cooper, Ana Lucia, Ben.

I think as Cooper exists in the sideways it's reasonable to conclude he is probably atoning to some extent for the horrible things he did. I would say Ana Lucia also which is why Desmond feels she is not ready. jimbling thinks that Anthony Cooper was just a figment of Locke's thoughts, but I can't accept that since Jack in the sideways got Cooper's name from Bernard and then met him and Helen without Locke's knowledge.

As for Ben, I agree that when he moves on he will do so with Alex but I don't believe the reason he doesn't go in the church is because he is simply waiting for Alex. I believe he can't go in because he shot Widmore, instructed Mikhail to kill Charlie, strangled Locke and so on. His flaws I think are sins in the traditional sense which is why he can't go inside yet.

Anyways I'm sure this was left deliberately vague for the likes of myself and jimbling to deliberate over so I suspect no one is right and no one is wrong.

jimbling

Mr. Nice Guy,
Thanks for your input in the thread. Obviously I don't agree with your surmise of it, but I hope some of the other regular posters (And SP to come in and tell us who is actually right :pac:) will also give there opinion on it.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think as Cooper exists in the sideways it's reasonable to conclude he is probably atoning to some extent for the horrible things he did. I would say Ana Lucia also which is why Desmond feels she is not ready. jimbling thinks that Anthony Cooper was just a figment of Locke's thoughts, but I can't accept that since Jack in the sideways got Cooper's name from Bernard and then met him and Helen without Locke's knowledge.

Just to say, I didn't actually mean this. What I meant was that Cooper was only existing in that world to satisfy John Lockes life there. I didn't mean an actual figment of John Lockes, and only John Lockes, imagination.
Each persons world exists along with everyone elses. e.g. Jack and Juliet have a kid....but that kid isn't a real person. He doesn't exist in the real world. But he goes to school, has a teacher and has friends etc in Limbo world.

Basically my point is that Cooper is similar to the Kid. He exists within the Limbo world, but he isn't there really in the sense that the losties are there. He's not waiting there to move on etc.

Well, that's what I got from it.
Out of curiosity, do you think the guys Sayid killed were there to move on? Was Keamy there to move on/atone? If so, how did they get killed? That wouldn't really make sense within the rest of the story would it?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Anyways I'm sure this was left deliberately vague for the likes of myself and jimbling to deliberate over so I suspect no one is right and no one is wrong.

Ya, agreed.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

Basically my point is that Cooper is similar to the Kid. He exists within the Limbo world, but he isn't there really in the sense that the losties are there. He's not waiting there to move on etc.

This is what I find difficult to understand though because we know for a fact the kid doesn't exist in the real timeline, but Cooper did. So why wouldn't Cooper exist in the limbo world. I mean that would be like saying Alex doesn't exist there either. Or Rousseau.

jimbling wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you think the guys Sayid killed were there to move on? Was Keamy there to move on/atone? If so, how did they get killed? That wouldn't really make sense within the rest of the story would it?

I would say Keamy and Mikhail were there to atone also. Tbh I think that makes more sense than the idea that they were dreamt up by Sayid to help him move on. As for how they got killed, maybe they just were never ready to move on. Maybe they will relive the sideways. As I said before I think this was kept very vague so the likes of ourselves would speculate on it. :pac:

Hrududu

I mean that would be like saying Alex doesn't exist there either. Or Rousseau.

Maybe they don't. Maybe they are constructs like Jack's son. The only difference is they were once real people, but they are serving a purpose for Ben in the Sideways Universe.

Its a confusing road to go down, so far I think that anyone that had flashes and/or ended up in the church are really there. So Penny was a real person in the sideways world. But people like Keamy and Cooper might not be really there. They might just be elemente from real life that the characters incorporated.

karma_

Hrududu wrote: »

Maybe they don't. Maybe they are constructs like Jack's son. The only difference is they were once real people, but they are serving a purpose for Ben in the Sideways Universe.

Its a confusing road to go down, so far I think that anyone that had flashes and/or ended up in the church are really there. So Penny was a real person in the sideways world. But people like Keamy and Cooper might not be really there. They might just be elemente from real life that the characters incorporated.

I don't think that is correct.

We can assume Ana Lucia was real because Hurley expressed surprise at seeing her and when he asked Desmond if she would be joining them was told she was not yet ready.

jimbling

Ya, I believe both Anna Lucia and Alex were real. Mainly because they were both integral parts of Island life, and Island life was an integral part of them.... so they're "part of the group" as such. Where as Anthony Cooper is not.

Also, although Anna Lucia makes sense with the concept of Atonement, Alex obviously does not. What is she atoning for?

I still believe it is just a matter of waiting to be "ready" and pass over with those that had most importance for you.

It could get tricky if you were in love with someone who didn't love you back though...... What if you're a stalker?

prinz

jimbling wrote: »

Also, although Anna Lucia makes sense with the concept of Atonement, Alex obviously does not. What is she atoning for?

Nothing, because she is completely oblivious to her life and death on island. The only way someone can be atoning is if they have full knowledge of their previous life and death - Ben, Eloise etc. The others are just living their life over IMO.