Atonment or waiting to move on?

jimbling

Right, myself and Mr. Nice Guy were having a discussion on this last night.

We had completely different interpretations of what Limbo world was... what meaning it had.

Mr. Nice Guy
He thought that everybody in the Limbo world was atoning for things done in their real life.
He felt that the reason some people were "not ready yet" was because they still have things to atone for.
Anna Lucia been a prime example. He also felt that Ben stayed as he still had things to atone for and wanted to make up for past discretions by being a good father to Alex etc.

If I have misinterpreted anything, or you have anything to add feel free to let me know.

Me
I never thought it was implied that there was a level of atonement within Limbo. I believe it was purely created by the losties (that doesn't really make sense, but hey, it's the Losts writers afterworld, they can do what they want) for the losties in order so they could meet up with the people that were most important too them and move on to the next world.

I reckon the people that were not ready to move on were just that. Not ready. They hadn't connected with the people most important too them etc etc.

I believe Ben merely wanted to stay as Alex wasn't ready to move on yet and he wanted to pass over with the person that mattered most to him. His adopted daughter.





Note: Also, can we please refrain from having posts like "They were all dead from the start" etc.... just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo world.

How Soon Is Now

jimbling wrote: »

Right, myself and Mr. Nice Guy were having a discussion on this last night.

We had completely different interpretations of what Limbo world was... what meaning it had.

Mr. Nice Guy
He thought that everybody in the Limbo world was atoning for things done in their real life.
He felt that the reason some people were "not ready yet" was because they still have things to atone for.
Anna Lucia been a prime example. He also felt that Ben stayed as he still had things to atone for and wanted to make up for past discretions by being a good father to Alex etc.

If I have misinterpreted anything, or you have anything to add feel free to let me know.

Me
I never thought it was implied that there was a level of atonement within Limbo. I believe it was purely created by the losties (that doesn't really make sense, but hey, it's the Losts writers afterworld, they can do what they want) for the losties in order so they could meet up with the people that were most important too them and move on to the next world.

I reckon the people that were not ready to move on were just that. Not ready. They hadn't connected with the people most important too them etc etc.

I believe Ben merely wanted to stay as Alex wasn't ready to move on yet and he wanted to pass over with the person that mattered most to him. His adopted daughter.





Note: Also, can we please refrain from having posts like "They were all dead from the start" etc.... just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo world.

To be honest i see it as a bit of both really.

prinz

I think there was an aspect of both involved. Obviously they weren't forced to stay behind... so atonement isn't really flying. If Ben wanted to leave he could have, surely if it's atonement you could only leave when it was decided yu had atoned enough. IMO it was just waiting to move on... some people didn't realise they were actually dead yet (Ana Lucia/Charles Widmore ) so they just lived on in ignorance in the 'purgatory' whereas Ben knew he was dead but chose to stay to enjoy the time with Alex, Eloise knew she was dead but wanted to stay to enjoy her time too. They weren't ready to move on, but I don't think they were forced to atone for anything in order to 'buy' their way out.

Hrududu

I'm not sure about the atonement thing. People like Sayid, Sawyer and Kate, who all killed people, got to move on. But people like Daniel, Miles and Charlotte, didn't.

karma_

I think it's more of a case of being with your own particular circle of buddies before 'moving on'.

This just wasn't Ben's crew so to speak, he possibly is linked with Alex, Rosseau, Tom, or maybe even people we didn't get to meet in the show, so he will go off now and perform the Desmond role for his buddies before moving on, so he was just there to say goodbye to this lot.

I think...

Likewise Daniel will possibly do the same for Charlotte etc.

opinion guy

So tell me this. If Charlie was in imagination land waiting to ascend or whatever it is they do at the end, how did he appear to Hurley as dead Charlie when Hurley was in the mental institution ?

I'd quit looking for meaning if I were you guys they shamelessly just made it all up as they went along

How Soon Is Now

opinion guy wrote: »

So tell me this. If Charlie was in imagination land waiting to ascend or whatever it is they do at the end, how did he appear to Hurley as dead Charlie when Hurley was in the mental institution ?

I'd quit looking for meaning if I were you guys they shamelessly just made it all up as they went along

Because Charlie died before Hurley did with in the island timeline he talked to Hurley. There is no real timeline in Purgatory so Charlie being there makes no difference they all died at different times but all had to meet for them to move on.

opinion guy

angerfist2009 wrote: »

Because Charlie died before Hurley did with in the island timeline he talked to Hurley. There is no real timeline in Purgatory so Charlie being there makes no difference they all died at different times but all had to meet for them to move on.

Yes but the clear implication was they came to imagination land as soon as they died. Come on - don't defend it - its a glaring inconsistency that makes no sense

karma_

Yes, given the timespan of Jacob being in charge on teh island, the whole end episode could be something like 2000 years later, which leaves enough elbow room to explain things like that.

How Soon Is Now

opinion guy wrote: »

Yes but the clear implication was they came to imagination land as soon as they died. Come on - don't defend it - its a glaring inconsistency that makes no sense

How do you know who died when though???? If you go by the fact that it was stated that there was no proper timeline only that they all join up in the end then really anything any of the characters did in the on island timeline will not clash with Purgatory.

It all boils down to the fact that they all died at different stages in there journey but all went together at the end.

opinion guy

angerfist2009 wrote: »

How do you know who died when though???? If you go by the fact that it was stated that there was no proper timeline only that they all join up in the end then really anything any of the characters did in the on island timeline will not clash with Purgatory.

It all boils down to the fact that they all died at different stages in there journey but all went together at the end.

Don't you think that bolded bit is convenient thou ? They might have well just said aliens abducted them all. Or a wizard did it.

You don't get this time business. Christian more or less said that as soon as you die you end up in this purgatory place. When they die is irrelevant. You die you go to imagination land. No running around in the bushes whispering and appearing to people sh1te

jimbling

Okay, Opinion Guy, that's a completely different discussion. How Charlie appeared to Hurley is irrelevant to this debate. So is when Charlie died, or if him appearing to Hurley had anything at all to do with the Limbo side of things.

Can we keep this on topic and discuss other aspects in different threads. This is merely to discuss the possibility of whether the Limbo was in any way related to atonement for what they did in there actual lives.

I dont think it did, and majority of responses so far seem to agree.... although some keep it in a grey area.

gazzer

opinion guy wrote: »

So tell me this. If Charlie was in imagination land waiting to ascend or whatever it is they do at the end, how did he appear to Hurley as dead Charlie when Hurley was in the mental institution ?

I'd quit looking for meaning if I were you guys they shamelessly just made it all up as they went along

Hurley was able to see dead people though. It wasnt just Charlie he saw. He was able to see Richards wife also. I think it was just his gift.

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Don't you think that bolded bit is convenient thou ? They might have well just said aliens abducted them all. Or a wizard did it.

You don't get this time business. Christian more or less said that as soon as you die you end up in this purgatory place. When they die is irrelevant. You die you go to imagination land. No running around in the bushes whispering and appearing to people sh1te

Again, different discussion, bring it up in the episode thread or create a new one.
You obviously aren't grasping the concept of not time, or timeless. It is a tricky thing to grasp and there is no perfect answer too it.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

Okay, Opinion Guy, that's a completely different discussion. How Charlie appeared to Hurley is irrelevant to this debate. So is when Charlie died, or if him appearing to Hurley had anything at all to do with the Limbo side of things.

Can we keep this on topic and discuss other aspects in different threads. This is merely to discuss the possibility of whether the Limbo was in any way related to atonement for what they did in there actual lives.

I dont think it did, and majority of responses so far seem to agree.... although some keep it in a grey area.

Jimbling wouldl you do me a favour ??? Stop trying to back seat mod me ok ?

As to whether it was about seeking atonement. Obviously not. It was about coming to terms with their issues. Which is a different thing. For example Sayid. He didn't exactly atone himself in alt reality by what....killing a few more people ??

Farce I tell you. The purpose was to give everyone a happy ending for US audiences. That is all.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

You obviously aren't grasping the concept of not time, or timeless. It is a tricky thing to grasp and there is no perfect answer too it.

Yes I do very much grasp it. The rest of you seem to be missing it however.

How Soon Is Now

opinion guy wrote: »

Jimbling wouldl you do me a favour ??? Stop trying to back seat mod me ok ?

As to whether it was about seeking atonement. Obviously not. It was about coming to terms with their issues. Which is a different thing. For example Sayid. He didn't exactly atone himself in alt reality by what....killing a few more people ??

Farce I tell you. The purpose was to give everyone a happy ending for US audiences. That is all.

The purpose as far as i can see for purgatory was for them to find there way to be able to ''let go'' Sayid found this when he finally found the women he wanted to be with Shannon. They all found there reasons to let go and move on thats what it was all about.

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Jimbling wouldl you do me a favour ??? Stop trying to back seat mod me ok ?

As to whether it was about seeking atonement. Obviously not. It was about coming to terms with their issues. Which is a different thing. For example Sayid. He didn't exactly atone himself in alt reality by what....killing a few more people ??

Farce I tell you. The purpose was to give everyone a happy ending for US audiences. That is all.

Opinion Guy, I asked in the thread title to keep it on topic and only discuss the atonement. You take it off topic immediately and you think I'm back seat modding for pointing that out?
I was very civil about it and just suggested you to take it to another thread. I did not say you deserved a banning or an infraction or anything.
To make you happy, I'll report your post instead of commenting about it again.


I thought it was obvious too, but plenty people were disagreeing with me in the main thread....hence, this thread.

opinion guy

No you didn't say keep it on topic.
you said

Also, can we please refrain from having posts like "They were all dead from the start" etc.... just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo world.

I did not say they were all dead.
Reporting you for back seat modding. My posts were within the scope of the topic in my opinion. I suggest you accept that just because you start a thread does not mean you can dictate exactly what is discussed

Basq

opinion guy and jimbling..

Will ye both settle down? If you can't discuss stuff without pissing and moaning, I'll close the thread here and now.

Ease up on this back-seat modding crap!

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

No you didn't say keep it on topic.
you said

jimbling wrote: »

just keep it to the point of atonement in the Flash Sideways Limbo

I obviously clearly stated what I wanted to talk about. You even quoted it.

basquille wrote: »

opinion guy and jimbling..

Will ye both settle down? If you can't discuss stuff without pissing and moaning, I'll close the thread here and now.

Ease up on this back-seat modding crap!

Sorry basquille, will stop now. But in my opinion he is purposely goading me and taking the thread off topic.
I started this thread for a specific purpose to continue a discussion and ask peoples opinions on a very specific matter. I made it very clear in my post and I was nothing but polite to Opinion Guy about that. I don't feel I need to settle down in the least.

Please don't close this thread, but feel free to delete all the redundant posts.

jimbling

From the other posts in this thread there genuinely seems to be a difference of opinion on the matter. I find that intriguing, although I am still unsure where the atonement side of things is coming from.

jimbling

Not many people are commenting on this, perhaps I should have just made it a poll.... I would have, but I dont know how to add one

What I'm not sure about is if people are not commenting because they think it's obvious that it is one way or the other, or whether they think it's a bit of both such as the first few posters mentioned.

Where are you Mr. Nice Guy?

prinz

jimbling wrote: »

What I'm not sure about is if people are not commenting because they think it's obvious that it is one way or the other, or whether they think it's a bit of both such as the first few posters mentioned.

I think it's obvious it's a bit of both. Any atonement done is strictly on a voluntary basis (in keeping with the rest of the show) so to say it's a place to atone isn't strictly true IMO. It's just a place, it's up to you what you choose to do there, whether to atone - possible Ben, or whether to just postpone the inevitable to reconnect with people - Eloise, whether to just reimagine your life the way you wish it had been - Hurley, Ben, Sawyer, Jack, or whether it's a place you are completely ignorant and relive your life exactly as you had done before - Kate, Ana Lucia etc. It's a place that can be whatever each person wants it to be.

Mr.Nice Guy

Well if I may put my view across in my own words...

My opinion is that there is a definite spiritual element to the last episode of the show and I think the iconography on the windows is a big nod towards that. We get to see symbols from various religions which I interpret to mean that this flash sideways is a form of purgatory, though not the one from Christian belief.

Throughout the series we have been told that the characters in the show are 'flawed'. Mikhail said so and I believe Jacob said as much this season also. I think the characters, like Jack, have to work through their flaws in their lives before they can 'move on' as Christian put it. I don't think the 'flaws' are necessarily sins, but in some cases they are, ie Cooper, Ana Lucia, Ben.

I think as Cooper exists in the sideways it's reasonable to conclude he is probably atoning to some extent for the horrible things he did. I would say Ana Lucia also which is why Desmond feels she is not ready. jimbling thinks that Anthony Cooper was just a figment of Locke's thoughts, but I can't accept that since Jack in the sideways got Cooper's name from Bernard and then met him and Helen without Locke's knowledge.

As for Ben, I agree that when he moves on he will do so with Alex but I don't believe the reason he doesn't go in the church is because he is simply waiting for Alex. I believe he can't go in because he shot Widmore, instructed Mikhail to kill Charlie, strangled Locke and so on. His flaws I think are sins in the traditional sense which is why he can't go inside yet.

Anyways I'm sure this was left deliberately vague for the likes of myself and jimbling to deliberate over so I suspect no one is right and no one is wrong.

jimbling

Mr. Nice Guy,
Thanks for your input in the thread. Obviously I don't agree with your surmise of it, but I hope some of the other regular posters (And SP to come in and tell us who is actually right :pac:) will also give there opinion on it.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think as Cooper exists in the sideways it's reasonable to conclude he is probably atoning to some extent for the horrible things he did. I would say Ana Lucia also which is why Desmond feels she is not ready. jimbling thinks that Anthony Cooper was just a figment of Locke's thoughts, but I can't accept that since Jack in the sideways got Cooper's name from Bernard and then met him and Helen without Locke's knowledge.

Just to say, I didn't actually mean this. What I meant was that Cooper was only existing in that world to satisfy John Lockes life there. I didn't mean an actual figment of John Lockes, and only John Lockes, imagination.
Each persons world exists along with everyone elses. e.g. Jack and Juliet have a kid....but that kid isn't a real person. He doesn't exist in the real world. But he goes to school, has a teacher and has friends etc in Limbo world.

Basically my point is that Cooper is similar to the Kid. He exists within the Limbo world, but he isn't there really in the sense that the losties are there. He's not waiting there to move on etc.

Well, that's what I got from it.
Out of curiosity, do you think the guys Sayid killed were there to move on? Was Keamy there to move on/atone? If so, how did they get killed? That wouldn't really make sense within the rest of the story would it?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Anyways I'm sure this was left deliberately vague for the likes of myself and jimbling to deliberate over so I suspect no one is right and no one is wrong.

Ya, agreed.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

Basically my point is that Cooper is similar to the Kid. He exists within the Limbo world, but he isn't there really in the sense that the losties are there. He's not waiting there to move on etc.

This is what I find difficult to understand though because we know for a fact the kid doesn't exist in the real timeline, but Cooper did. So why wouldn't Cooper exist in the limbo world. I mean that would be like saying Alex doesn't exist there either. Or Rousseau.

jimbling wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you think the guys Sayid killed were there to move on? Was Keamy there to move on/atone? If so, how did they get killed? That wouldn't really make sense within the rest of the story would it?

I would say Keamy and Mikhail were there to atone also. Tbh I think that makes more sense than the idea that they were dreamt up by Sayid to help him move on. As for how they got killed, maybe they just were never ready to move on. Maybe they will relive the sideways. As I said before I think this was kept very vague so the likes of ourselves would speculate on it. :pac:

Hrududu

I mean that would be like saying Alex doesn't exist there either. Or Rousseau.

Maybe they don't. Maybe they are constructs like Jack's son. The only difference is they were once real people, but they are serving a purpose for Ben in the Sideways Universe.

Its a confusing road to go down, so far I think that anyone that had flashes and/or ended up in the church are really there. So Penny was a real person in the sideways world. But people like Keamy and Cooper might not be really there. They might just be elemente from real life that the characters incorporated.

karma_

Hrududu wrote: »

Maybe they don't. Maybe they are constructs like Jack's son. The only difference is they were once real people, but they are serving a purpose for Ben in the Sideways Universe.

Its a confusing road to go down, so far I think that anyone that had flashes and/or ended up in the church are really there. So Penny was a real person in the sideways world. But people like Keamy and Cooper might not be really there. They might just be elemente from real life that the characters incorporated.

I don't think that is correct.

We can assume Ana Lucia was real because Hurley expressed surprise at seeing her and when he asked Desmond if she would be joining them was told she was not yet ready.

jimbling

Ya, I believe both Anna Lucia and Alex were real. Mainly because they were both integral parts of Island life, and Island life was an integral part of them.... so they're "part of the group" as such. Where as Anthony Cooper is not.

Also, although Anna Lucia makes sense with the concept of Atonement, Alex obviously does not. What is she atoning for?

I still believe it is just a matter of waiting to be "ready" and pass over with those that had most importance for you.

It could get tricky if you were in love with someone who didn't love you back though...... What if you're a stalker?

prinz

jimbling wrote: »

Also, although Anna Lucia makes sense with the concept of Atonement, Alex obviously does not. What is she atoning for?

Nothing, because she is completely oblivious to her life and death on island. The only way someone can be atoning is if they have full knowledge of their previous life and death - Ben, Eloise etc. The others are just living their life over IMO.

jimbling

prinz wrote: »

Nothing, because she is completely oblivious to her life and death on island. The only way someone can be atoning is if they have full knowledge of their previous life and death - Ben, Eloise etc. The others are just living their life over IMO.

Ah right, I see the side you're coming from prinz, although I don't think that's the same angle as Mr. Nice Guy.

cooker3

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I would say Keamy and Mikhail were there to atone also.

So the next question is... Can you atone by making awesome eggs?

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

Also, although Anna Lucia makes sense with the concept of Atonement, Alex obviously does not. What is she atoning for?

Atonement is probably a bad description of it as it implies the Christian view of purgatory and that they are working through sins. As I said before I think the characters have to work through their flaws in order to move on but I don't think the flaws are necessarily sins, although in some cases I'd say they are.

Maybe fulfilment is a better description for it than atonement.

My view on Alex was that her flaw, and the reason she was there, was to try and patch up her relationship with Ben in order for her to be at peace with herself, though I do think prinz's theory is pretty good also.

cooker3 wrote:

So the next question is... Can you atone by making awesome eggs?

Ha this seems to be his only good point. Perhaps he is there just for his egg-making skills.

SillyMonkey

Yeah IMO don't think atonement is right. I mean Christian specifically said that the flash sideways was a place they all made so they could find each other after they died.

Speaking selfishly why would you create a place just for you to atone for your sins before moving on. Sure wouldn't all the christian losties be going to the real purgatory after the meet-up anyway to really atone. I don't think they will want to do that twice.:D

As for Ben(and everything he did) if he knows he's going to the real purgatory after this place would you be in any rush to go. Maybe he's too happy with Alex and Rousseau to move on.

opinion guy

SillyMonkey wrote: »

I don't think they will want to do that twice.:D

Apparently they do do it twice. Since DeadMichael told us the whispers who couldn't move on, and then the finale tells us you go to imagination land after you die to come to terms before you move on. Writer FAIL

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Apparently they do do it twice. Since DeadMichael told us the whispers who couldn't move on, and then the finale tells us you go to imagination land after you die to come to terms before you move on. Writer FAIL

Okay, some people are interpreting it that way, but at no point was it said that "imagination land" as you say it is where you go to come to terms before you move on.
The only thing that was specifically stated is that it is an in between place where they could all find each other or basically the people most important too them so that they passed to the next world together.

So I don't see any problem with it working the way suggested. i.e. the ghosts on the island are atoning, or can't deal with what they have done in there lives etc.
Once they do come to terms with it they move on...... maybe they bypass the Limbo world, maybe they do not. Maybe they go into Limbo and like the normal losties they just have no recollection of there lives or there period of atonement as a ghost.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

Okay, some people are interpreting it that way, but at no point was it said that "imagination land" as you say it is where you go to come to terms before you move on.
The only thing that was specifically stated is that it is an in between place where they could all find each other or basically the people most important too them so that they passed to the next world together.

So I don't see any problem with it working the way suggested. i.e. the ghosts on the island are atoning, or can't deal with what they have done in there lives etc.
Once they do come to terms with it they move on...... maybe they bypass the Limbo world, maybe they do not. Maybe they go into Limbo and like the normal losties they just have no recollection of there lives or there period of atonement as a ghost.

Ben said it. ben said he wanted to stay to come to terms did he not ?

Come on. Stop making excuses for the complete lack of consistency

jimbling

opinion guy wrote: »

Ben said it. ben said he wanted to stay to come to terms did he not ?

Come on. Stop making excuses for the complete lack of consistency

No, he did not.... he said "I still have some things I need to work out". nothing about coming to terms with anything or atoning for anything.

Also, it was made pretty obvious that Ben "could" have moved on if he wanted to. He was volunteering to stay.
However, Michael on the Island was stuck there as a ghost.... he didn't want to be there.

I would assume Ben was talking about Rousseau and Alex.... that is what has shown to be important to him through the Flash Sideways. He nearly started crying when Rousseau mentioned that Alex saw him as a father figure.

Johnmb

Although we don't know that Michael was still on the island at that stage, just that he didn't move on with the other losties. He likely moved on with Walt once he was ready and able.

opinion guy

cooker3 wrote: »

So the next question is... Can you atone by making awesome eggs?

No, but I'd imagine its a good start

RolandIRL

i think that the purgatory was created by the losties for the losties. it was their way of remembering their lives, realising how important they and their time together was, and finally moving on into the light.

there were others in purgatory who wanted to redeem themselves (like ben) and others who didn't realise their "alive" life (not purgatory life) eg ana lucia. obviously she wouldn't move on with them as she didn't seem to have any trigger (or circumstance) to remember her "alive" life.
she must have something else in her life that will make her remember but she's not of importance to the losties.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

No, he did not.... he said "I still have some things I need to work out". nothing about coming to terms with anything or atoning for anything.

Wha? If he said he has some things to work out and this is why he can't go inside, that surely implies that he has some stuff to do before he can join the rest of them.

jimbling wrote:

Also, it was made pretty obvious that Ben "could" have moved on if he wanted to. He was volunteering to stay.

This wasn't made obvious at all.

Do you really honestly think Ben is 'ready' to move on in the way the others in the church are? If he is why does he show up and sit outside the church?

The indication it seems to me is that he'd LIKE to move on but as he says himself he has some things he needs to work out first.

jimbling

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Wha? If he said he has some things to work out and this is why he can't go inside, that surely implies that he has some stuff to do before he can join the rest of them.

Some stuff to do is not the same as coming to terms with things. They have completely different meanings and connotations.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This wasn't made obvious at all.

Do you really honestly think Ben is 'ready' to move on in the way the others in the church are? If he is why does he show up and sit outside the church?

The indication it seems to me is that he'd LIKE to move on but as he says himself he has some things he needs to work out first.

I didn't say he was ready. All I said is that I don't believe he is trying to "come to terms" with anything.

I think Ben sits outside the Church as he knows the others are leaving. He probably at one point considered going with them. He decided not to. He even said to Hurley...."No, I think I'll stay a while, I have some things I need to work out". And he said it with a smile on his face.
All that indicates that he could probably leave with the rest of them if he wanted to, but he realised he wanted to leave with Alex, not the Losties.


At the end of the day we have different interpretations, that's not going to change... and is fine. I was replying to Opinion Guy who is suggesting that the guys in Limbo are doing the same thing as the ghosts that were stuck on the Island.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling wrote: »

Some stuff to do is not the same as coming to terms with things. They have completely different meanings and connotations.

Ah come on. OK I'll rephrase 'some stuff to do' with Ben's words - 'some things I need to work out'

Does this not suggest having to come to terms with something?

jimbling wrote:

I didn't say he was ready. All I said is that I don't believe he is trying to "come to terms" with anything.

I think Ben sits outside the Church as he knows the others are leaving. He probably at one point considered going with them. He decided not to. He even said to Hurley...."No, I think I'll stay a while, I have some things I need to work out". And he said it with a smile on his face.
All that indicates that he could probably leave with the rest of them if he wanted to, but he realised he wanted to leave with Alex, not the Losties.

At the end of the day we have different interpretations, that's not going to change... and is fine. I was replying to Opinion Guy who is suggesting that the guys in Limbo are doing the same thing as the ghosts that were stuck on the Island.

Well it certainly is open to interpretation as I think the bit you put in bold was just a simple phrase to Hurley. I think the bit that should be put in bold is this bit:

..."I have some things I need to work out"

I think that indicates as much as Ben would like to go inside he is not permitted to do so. Yes we have different interpretations but you act as if your one is the only correct one.

jimbling

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Ah come on. OK I'll rephrase 'some stuff to do' with Ben's words - 'some things I need to work out'

Does this not suggest having to come to terms with something?

No, it suggests he has some things to work out.
All I am saying is that this is with regards to Alex and moving on with her.
What ye are saying is that it means he can not pass on until he has come to terms with things he did in his actual life. (Which is what I think the Ghosts on the Island had to do)

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well it certainly is open to interpretation as I think the bit you put in bold was just a simple phrase to Hurley. I think the bit that should be put in bold is this bit:

..."I have some things I need to work out"

I think that indicates as much as Ben would like to go inside he is not permitted to do so.

I just completely disagree. It didnt even remotely look like Ben wanted to go inside. In fact the opposite. He looked/sounded very happy about staying.... It looked/sounded like he was looking forward to the process of working things out.
I've watched the scenes a few times and this is what I take from it every time.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yes we have different interpretations but you act as if your one is the only correct one.

Nope, I act like I believe my one is the correct one.

Look, basically, I do not believe any of the losties were there to come to terms with things they had done in there actual life. I do not believe they were there to atone for anything.
So, any point you put forward to argue that they were, I am going to look at and answer with the reasons I disagree...... that's what a debate/discussion is. I think I'm being quite reasonable in my points. And nobody has made any points to convince me that I am wrong.

Discussions dont have to be resolved by us agreeing. It's just interesting... and I find it fun.

opinion guy

jimbling wrote: »

At the end of the day we have different interpretations, that's not going to change... and is fine. I was replying to Opinion Guy who is suggesting that the guys in Limbo are doing the same thing as the ghosts that were stuck on the Island.

Yes but DeadMichael didn't say he had to atone either. He just said things to work out or something. Its swings and roundabouts really. They just made a bunch of stuff up that had no coherence. Thats good enough for some people but not for others.

Mr.Nice Guy

jimbling, I'm not interested in a big back and forth quote-fest so I'll just address the main points of your last post.

OK, so if I understand this, we both agree Ben has things to work out in the sideways. I take this to mean he needs to do this in order to move on, (like I would argue Jack had to), whereas you think Ben can move on already if he wants to but he chooses to stay. Obviously we differ on the severity of the things Ben did and the importance of having to work through flaws, but I think at least that clarifies things.

I'm surprised you think Ben sounded happy outside the church. I did not get that vibe at all. I thought he looked and sounded like a man resigned to his fate. He knew he didn't deserve to go in like Hurley and Locke, but he was nonetheless happy for Hurley and Locke to be able to do so.

Lastly, you say discussions don't have to be resolved by us agreeing, but I think in a debate/discussion it's helpful to actually try and see the other person's perspective you're arguing against which I don't think you do. I thought we had reached some level of understanding towards our respective interpretations but from reading your comments to opinion guy I get the sense you don't want to countenance other possible explanations. For example, saying it was "pretty obvious" Ben could have moved on if he wanted to which I think is highly contentious - and ultimately wrong. Sounds like our previous discussions haven't been worthwhile at all.

Considering this thread was set up to, as I perceived it, try and get third parties on the forum to decide which one of us was right and which one was wrong, obviously I am going to respond to statements which appear to crap all over my own views. However while you say the disagreements are fun, tbh I'm not interested in going round and round in circles on stuff that I feel has already been touched upon.

You can have the last word on this jimbling (like you wouldn't ) but I'd like to stress that as much as you may like to think otherwise, there are interpretations on the show's finale that differ from your own interpretation, and I would maintain my interpretation is logical and sound.

jimbling

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

jimbling, I'm not interested in a big back and forth quote-fest so I'll just address the main points of your last post.

When I was talking about the back and fourth I'm not necessarily talking about with just you. I just mean the general discussion. I would like more people to come in with their opinion on it.
It does seem a few people agree with you and a few people think it's a bit of both. I have not even re stated my points to those people. I am accepting opinions.
But.... Opinion Guy posted stuff that I felt was not really open for debate. I would have thought it was "pretty obvious" that the Ghosts on the Island were different to the dead in Limbo.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

OK, so if I understand this, we both agree Ben has things to work out in the sideways. I take this to mean he needs to do this in order to move on, (like I would argue Jack had to), whereas you think Ben can move on already if he wants to but he chooses to stay. Obviously we differ on the severity of the things Ben did and the importance of having to work through flaws, but I think at least that clarifies things.

I just dont think the things Ben did in his life have any effect on Limbo. To me it has clearly been described (by Christian) as a place created by the losties in order to find one another and move on. i.e. it's a place to find the people that were most important to you in your life and move on.

The Atonement stuff is all coming from the fact that some people "Are not ready yet" and Ben felt that he had "Things to work out". So, I feel it's a bit of a leap to say that Limbo is about coming to terms with things etc. I was just taking those statements and saying you didnt have to look at it that way.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm surprised you think Ben sounded happy outside the church. I did not get that vibe at all. I thought he looked and sounded like a man resigned to his fate. He knew he didn't deserve to go in like Hurley and Locke, but he was nonetheless happy for Hurley and Locke to be able to do so.

Ya, but don't you think it was a happy resignation? I don't know, as I said I keep getting the same thing from it..... I'll watch again later with your side in mind.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Lastly, you say discussions don't have to be resolved by us agreeing, but I think in a debate/discussion it's helpful to actually try and see the other person's perspective you're arguing against which I don't think you do. I thought we had reached some level of understanding towards our respective interpretations but from reading your comments to opinion guy I get the sense you don't want to countenance other possible explanations. For example, saying it was "pretty obvious" Ben could have moved on if he wanted to which I think is highly contentious - and ultimately wrong. Sounds like our previous discussions haven't been worthwhile at all.

Well, you are taking it the wrong way.... I do see your side Mr. Nice Guy...... But just because I see it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. :pac:

I had completely accepted your side of the argument. The only reason this started up again was because Opinion Guy came in to say that he thought that the Limbo was just a repetition of what the Ghosts on the Island had to do. Why should I not debate that when I think it's almost certainly wrong??

Honestly, its swings and roundabouts. You got upset because I said "pretty obvious"... but come on, everything here is opinion and perception. I still stand by that. And how does you saying that I am ultimately wrong fit into your idea of seeing the other persons side of something that's open for interpretation?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Considering this thread was set up to, as I perceived it, try and get third parties on the forum to decide which one of us was right and which one was wrong, obviously I am going to respond to statements which appear to crap all over my own views. However while you say the disagreements are fun, tbh I'm not interested in going round and round in circles on stuff that I feel has already been touched upon.

Yes, that is why I set up the thread. I hoped some of the regular posters would get involved in this......

I never meant to "crap" all over your views.... and I don't know why you would think that. I just disagreed with them. I could say the same about you on mine to be honest.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You can have the last word on this jimbling (like you wouldn't ) but I'd like to stress that as much as you may like to think otherwise, there are interpretations on the show's finale that differ from your own interpretation, and I would maintain my interpretation is logical and sound.

Yes, I like to have the last word , but in fairness, it's not like I couldn't respond to this post :eek: