Infrastructure for electric cars: a good or bad idea?

maninasia

Aidan1 wrote: »

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/Search-Results/First-drives/BMW-i3-2013-electric-car-test-ride/?content-block=0

First drive (that I've seen) of the new i3 BMW. 170bhp, rear engine, rear wheel drive. Mr Kacher likes it.

While batteries are getting better all the time, there are going to be real difficulties getting to the point where the power density is as good as (say) a 60 liter tank of petrol (let alone diesel) - even if EVs are far more efficient at converting that to motion. Moore's law fails to apply when you get to the point that physics (and chemistry) stand in the way, and you can't miniturise your way out of the situation. But for common battery sizes/types cost is actually a much more important factor. The tech in a 24kw/h battery in a Leaf is 6-7 years old - the next generation car will have something of the order of 32kw/h (not the 2013 car - the one after) and be cheaper. That's real progress. Couple of more iterations of that and you'll have something that can compete with mass market ICE vehicles (which have 125 + years of constant R&D activity behind them).

Electric batteries are predicted to reduce at 11% CAGR cost KWH per year up to 2025, with industrial scale up and technological upgrades its very feasible and not a pipe dream in the slightest. The virtuous circle has started with sales of hybrids shooting up over the last few months!

Also the new must have 'cool' gadget will not be a phone but a car. I know it sound corny but you can see that happening already, especially if people can sex them up for the too cool for school we love global warming crowd!

All doubters google history of PV industry cost, it's all about cost and that is the easiest thing to deal with regarding a relatively mature tech like Li-ion batteries. This is not a fusion generator we are talking about!

serfboard

Irish air pollutant breaches EU target

The Irish Times wrote:

Air pollution linked to road traffic in Ireland breached the specified EU emission ceiling in 2011, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said today.

The latest EPA emissions data showed levels of nitrogen oxide (NOx) in the air exceeded the target level of 65 kilotonnes by 2.6 kilotonnes in 2011.

High nitrogen oxide emissions can pose a threat to human health as a respiratory irritant, particularly in people with asthma.

The road transport sector represents the largest source of NOx emissions, accounting for 55 per cent of total NOx emissions in 2011.

Aidan1

I know it sound corny but you can see that happening already, especially if people can sex them up for the too cool for school we love global warming crowd!

If I can get a relatively light rear engined, rear wheel drive car with 170bhp thats cheap to run - at a reasonable cost - there will be no need to 'sex it up'. Who wouldn't want a car that drives like a safer version of a late 60s 911, with zero tailpipe emissions?

L1011

maninasia wrote: »

especially if people can sex them up for the too cool for school we love global warming crowd!

Oh dear, it appears that my CSPE teacher has entered the discussion.

Most people who are against the throwing of cash to subsidise electric cars are not against them on aesthetic/image reasons - and there isn't anyone over the age of 6 who matches your description there - they're against them on practicality reasons; and the fact that we've been lied to about battery technology for decades.

Aidan1

MYOB - have you ever driven an EV?

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

MYOB - have you ever driven an EV?

No. Hence I've not made any statements based on performance/appearance/power/"coolness" of them, which is what the other poster seems to assume are the only reasons people dislike EVs. Tesla seem to have addressed these issues, but they haven't dealt with the impracticability or the cost.

There isn't a single EV on the market that is practical for my main car, and a plugin would be significantly more expensive to run.

Aidan1

Given the amount you drive, it'll be a long time before there is an BEV that'll work for you (assuming nothing mental happens to oil prices). You might find yourself with a PHEV sooner than you expect though.

If you like driving, it's worth having a go in one. Even leaving aside the performance, which is very different to ICE vehicles, the NVH improvements from EVs are incredible.

antoobrien

Aidan1 wrote: »

Given the amount you drive, it'll be a long time before there is an BEV that'll work for you (assuming nothing mental happens to oil prices). You might find yourself with a PHEV sooner than you expect though.

If you like driving, it's worth having a go in one. Even leaving aside the performance, which is very different to ICE vehicles, the NVH improvements from EVs are incredible.

Something they're planning on doing away with to save pedestrians from themselves.

My brother works for a company that has a EV van they use for going in/around Galway. They've been lucky not to kill 3/4 pedestrians a month on some of the one-way streets because of the habits pedestrians have picked up over the years. I can't hear a vehicle I won't look up - it's an easy enough trap to fall into. I fear it's only a matter of time before a blind person steps out in front of one of these and ends up under the front wheel.

Aidan1

Something they're planning on doing away with to save pedestrians from themselves.

Only at low speeds (less than 30km/h iirc). My present top three suggestions noises that should be used for EVs are;

3. 1972 Porsche 917 Can Am Flat 12
2. Leopard 2A6
1. TIE Fighter

In reality, this could apply to a lot of modern cars with low rolling resistance tyres (as any cyclist in Dublin will tell you). It's particularly bad with 'eco' variants because the road noise is so much less, but even the F10 520D BMW is bloody quiet.

markpb

antoobrien wrote: »

I fear it's only a matter of time before a blind person steps out in front of one of these and ends up under the front wheel.

I'm no expert but I suspect most blind people cross at pedestrian lights or rely on guide dogs rather than blindly (no pun intended) walking out because they don't think the car is coming. Anyway there's an EC directive in the works which will force manufacturers to make EVs make noise.

maninasia

markpb wrote: »

I'm no expert but I suspect most blind people cross at pedestrian lights or rely on guide dogs rather than blindly (no pun intended) walking out because they don't think the car is coming. Anyway there's an EC directive in the works which will force manufacturers to make EVs make noise.

In the US there is a lot antipathy among the Motor media towards electric cars (also UK look what Top Gear did) especially against the Prius. Image is very important for many consumers and until electric cars can get into the pick-up SUV performance field it will struggle with many segments. There is also a lot of liberal/conservative divisions there that breaks down to the supposed lifeatyle people lead and their belief in global warming and what cars the drive etc.

Tesla obviously are trying to change that impression with both the Model S and their next vehicle the Model X which is a crossover vehicle.

I don't get that excited about cars personally (which are after all mass market consumer items) but I like to see something like electric cars breaking through and it does offer a good investment opportunity.

Stonewolf

I find the concept of forcing electric cars to make noise obnoxious. If I'm driving along in my car and someone fails to take appropriate notice and steps out in front of me it's not my fault or my cars fault, it's theirs.

An engineer is satisfied not when there is nothing left to add but when there is nothing left to take away.

Merch

antoobrien wrote: »

Something they're planning on doing away with to save pedestrians from themselves.

My brother works for a company that has a EV van they use for going in/around Galway. They've been lucky not to kill 3/4 pedestrians a month on some of the one-way streets because of the habits pedestrians have picked up over the years. I can't hear a vehicle I won't look up - it's an easy enough trap to fall into. I fear it's only a matter of time before a blind person steps out in front of one of these and ends up under the front wheel.

People walk out in front of cars all the time and pay no heed to them, its not like ICE powered cars are noisy, petrols in particular.
If they're not paying attention to whats going on around them, they are as likely if not more to be hit by something other than an EV, maybe even a bicycle.
Plus Im sure EV's will have a horn to alert people? Im also sure blind people are more acutely aware of the dangers of just stepping off the path onto a road, I dont really think many will just do that.
Either way, it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure they can stop in time.

maninasia

A little noise would be a sensible thing to implement.

Here's another article mentioning the ingrained resistance among the auto community re Electric cars.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/12/3969260/going-the-distance-driving-tesla-model-s-in-the-real-world

antoobrien

Merch wrote: »

People walk out in front of cars all the time and pay no heed to them, its not like ICE powered cars are noisy, petrols in particular.
If they're not paying attention to whats going on around them, they are as likely if not more to be hit by something other than an EV, maybe even a bicycle.

I've yet to come across an ice/hybrid (yes I can hear the prius) that I can't hear in an urban environment, so "paying attention" includes listening. The simple fact of the matter is that on certain streets in Galway, the habit has become not to look around because vehicles can clearly be heard approaching.

Merch wrote: »

Either way, it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure they can stop in time.

Within reason, if somebody steps out onto the road inside the reaction time breaking distance then it's not the drivers responsibility, it's the twit unwittingly looking for the darwin award. The idea that motorists have to be held responsible for things outside of their control is as idiotic as holding a driver responsible for the manslaughter of somebody that jumps in front of a bus/truck to commit suicide.

Sesshoumaru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_warning_sounds#Nissan

Nissan's Vehicle Sound for Pedestrians is a sine-wave sound system that sweeps from 2.5 kHz at the high end to a low of 600 Hz, a range that is easily audible across age groups. Depending on the speed and whether the Leaf is accelerating or decelerating, the sound system will make sweeping, high-low sounds. For example, when the Leaf is started the sound will be louder, and when the car is in reverse, the system will generate an intermittent sound. The sound system ceases operation when the Nissan Leaf reaches 30 kilometres per hour (19 mph) and engages again as the car slows to under 25 kilometres per hour (16 mph).

I've been beside a Nissan Leaf going below 30kph, they are easily heard.

I don't know if this was posted already, but Estonia have invested in a countrywide DC fast charging network. Given the proven advances in battery technology and the already lower cost, coupled with the widely predicted further lowering in cost of battery technology, I would say we should be following their example.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/justingerdes/2013/02/26/estonia-launches-nationwide-electric-vehicle-fast-charging-network/

In towns, stations are installed at shopping centers, gas stations, post offices, banks, and parking lots. Every city of more than 5,000 inhabitants hosts at least one station; the capital, Tallinn, population 423,000, hosts 27 stations. The quick-charging stations can deliver a 90% charge to the battery in less than 30 minutes, according to KredEx, the national foundation that operates the EV network.

Sesshoumaru

ninja900 wrote: »

Li-ion also has issues in relation to 'bricking' (Tesla) and safety (Dell, Apple, Boeing...). We keep hearing that future batteries will have higher energy density, but it's never mentioned that the higher the energy density gets, the greater the risks.

There is a poster on Boards who has built his own EV, batteries are his profession and seems quite knowledgeable on the subject.

http://www.evbmw.com/
http://www.e39ev.com/



I remembered a previous post of his, I thought it was relevant to your point. Before I quote him, I just wanted to say myself that the battery in a Nissan Leaf is not the same as the battery found in a mobile phone or laptop or Boeing Dreamliner.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/business/boeing-aware-of-battery-ills-before-the-fires.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

In a little-noticed test in 2010, the F.A.A. found that the kind of lithium-ion chemistry that Boeing planned to use — lithium cobalt — was the most flammable of several possible types. The test found that batteries of that type provided the most power, but could also overheat more quickly.

jackbauer wrote: »

I have been following this thread and the cannonball run leaf with some interest. While I would agree that it may not be seen by some to be appropriate to have an ev in the run , I reckon that it did some good to demonstrate the car and garner some public interest. Let me start out by saying that I am not here to evangalise people on the merits of electric cars. Its not my place to do so and I would not want someone doing it to me if the shoe was on the other foot. What I would like to do however is clarify a few points raised by previous posters. I apologise if this gets a bit techy as this is a motors forum not a battery forum but I don't think people would be upset if I was describing rebuilding an SU carb on here:) And batteries are now "car parts" in some places so here goes.

The Nissan Leaf uses a Lithium Manganeese Spinal cell. Now while this is an oxide chemistry it is not nearly as touchy as the cobalt oxide or polymer cells used in laptops and other consumer devices where having the most energy in the least amount of space is paramount. Each cell is monitored by a battery managment system. If even one cell thinks about having a bad hair day then the traction system is shut down. Ignoring all of that lets look at what causes a lithium chemistry cell to flame or explode. In my experience (and I do mean experience. Not just reading some hearsay on the web) there are two main culprits. Extreme overcharge and piercing by a conductive object. Overcharge is easy to prevent. Conductive object piercing is a bit more difficult but can be avoided by careful pack design which I'm sure Nissan and others have taken into account. Cell level mechanical safety devices such as rupture discs etc are the last and most effective safety element as can be seen from the pictures linked below. I have sledgehammered , driven over , overcharged , overdischarged , microwaved , oven baked , frozen , shot with a nail gun , short circuited ,hacksawed , immersed in acid and probablly a dozen other things i can't think of to every available lithium cell that I could get my hands on to date. I learnt a lot in the process. In the end I choose Lithium Iron Phosphate cells for my car. While not as energy dense as manganese or cobalt , they more than make up for it with a benign nature and cyclic life in excess of 5000 cycles to 70% depty of discharge before reaching 80% capacity. My traction battery is comprised of 192 of these little guys and yes I have slept in the car while it was on charge:eek: Here is a little summary of test results and just what happens when your really mean to them : http://www.evbmw.com/headway.htm

Some oems are now looking seriously at phosphate cathode cells as opposed to manganese for these very reasons. A modern ev traction battery is at least as safe as , if not more so , than a regular car's fuel tank.

Finally , and i have mentioned this before , it is not a fair comparisson to quote tailpipe emissions of an ice car against an ev fueled by a coal buring (or other) power plant. In the US it is estimated to require something in the region of 7.5kWh of electricity to refine one gallon of automotive petrol fuel. So that gallon of petrol is already pre loaded with CO2 before it even enters a cylinder! Here is an interesting statistic. The best efficeincy I ever achieved in my car was on a run out of dublin city center to my home in greystones. I averaged 227wh/mile. That 7.5kwh would have moved the car over 33 miles. I don't know the mpg of a '96 E36 but I doubt its much over 30!

I added the emphasis in both quotes above.

Hotblack Desiato

Of course it's not the same battery :rolleyes: but the point is that ever higher energy density is the holy grail of EVs, but this brings potential risks.
Yeah, petrol has risks, diesel has risks, but these are well known and understood by most people and the technology and risks are not rapidly changing.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I've been beside a Nissan Leaf going below 30kph, they are easily heard.

With earphones on?

I ride a motorcycle. A loud one. With a quiet one, there are just too many dippy blondes stepping off the kerb without looking. I don't want that, because it'll do thousands of euro of damage to my bike and quite possibly serious damage to me, and good luck claiming off them even when they're blatantly at fault.

maninasia

I would posit that ever cheaper batteries would be the holy grail of EV development, but of course higher energy density would play it's part too.
All new technology has risks, although this is again is a misnomer as Li-ion battery technology in general is not new.
And new versions of petrol and diesel cars routinely have recalls due to safety issues. Don't get your point really. There are experts in battery technology that are quoted on here that are saying something different than you.

Sesshoumaru

ninja900 wrote: »

Of course it's not the same battery :rolleyes: but the point is that ever higher energy density is the holy grail of EVs, but this brings potential risks.
Yeah, petrol has risks, diesel has risks, but these are well known and understood by most people and the technology and risks are not rapidly changing.



With earphones on?

I ride a motorcycle. A loud one. With a quiet one, there are just too many dippy blondes stepping off the kerb without looking. I don't want that, because it'll do thousands of euro of damage to my bike and quite possibly serious damage to me, and good luck claiming off them even when they're blatantly at fault.

Risks that EV manufacturers are clearly aware of. The Dragon capsule uses lithium battery packs and it has been cleared to dock with the ISS.

http://www.space.com/20018-spacex-dragon-spacecraft-launching-today.html

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. — The private spaceflight company SpaceX is counting down to launch an unmanned Dragon space capsule today (March 1) to deliver vital supplies for astronauts

SpaceX officials said they are eager to see the Dragon space capsule make its second cargo run to the International Space Station.

Elon Musk has even weighed in with unsolicited advise for Boeing on the matter!

http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2013/02/26/elon-musks-solution-to-boeings-battery-problem/

“The 787 batteries have very large cells, the battery cells are very big and they’re quite close together and there’s not enough insulation between the cells. So if one cell goes into thermal runaway and catches on fire, it’s going to cascade into the other cells.

The approach we take at Tesla and SpaceX is we have smaller battery cells with gaps between them, and we make sure that if there’s a thermal runaway event which creates quite a bit of fire and smoke that it directs that fire away from other cells, so you don’t have this domino effect….

The long term solution for having a battery pack that’s reliable and safe and lasts a long time is to reduce the size of the cells, and have more cells that are smaller and have bigger gaps and better thermal insulation between the cells.”

If someone is wearing earphones, they would have trouble hearing more than just EV's. Lots of modern petrol cars would be quiet enough not to be heard by someone wearing headphones.

I also ride a loud motorcycle, here is my beauty



V-Twin & carbon fibre exhausts = LOUD It's also an old carbed model, 1995 to be exact, so it's definitely louder than newer Ducati's I've owned in the past. But that doesn't mean I can assume people won't walk out in front of me or that cars won't try to turn into my path. Even with loud exhausts I have to keep my wits about me!

In any case there is definitely a general desire within society to make vehicles quieter, much quieter. This translates into legislation making new vehicles quieter and quieter.

bk

Here is the thing, everything to do with driving is dangerous.

A car is basically a big metal object that is propelled by a large amounts of very compact energy source (petrol/diesel/electric) to speeds up to 160km/h !!

When you are dealing with something like that, there is always risk involved. Hell petrol/diesel cars are basically powered by a controlled explosion!!

Is there some risk of fire in a battery, yes. But I honestly believe that the risk is lower then a petrol/diesel car.

Electric car and battery makers know that people are irrational beings. That they will go "oh I'm scared of the battery catching fire", but then will happily sit into their car with highly flammable petrol/diesel behind them and an explosion of those fuels in front of them!! So EV car and battery makers are going to extremes to make their batteries as safe as possible, in order to avoid any bad press.

You have to balance the risk with the benefits. This is something we do everyday, after all most of us drive every day, despite the fact that every 30 seconds someone is killed somewhere in the world from a car accident. In fact car accidents are the 6th most common cause of death in the western world, ahead of stomach cancer, heart disease, TB and suicide!! Yet most of us still take the risk of getting in a car everyday.

donspeekinglesh

Nissan are planning on competing in the LeMans 24hrs next year with an all electric car.
Be interesting to see how they manage to keep it going for 24hrs with a minimum of stops.

spacetweek

EV technology has progressed slowly for many years due to the nature of exponential growth which increases slowly before passing the knee of the curve. In the last 5 years (even since this thread was started) we've seen significant progress. Nobody could ever realistically have thought they would take over overnight. We'll see a long introduction as they gradually displace ICE cars over many decades, but they'll never be 100% - there will always be niches that require fuels. Hybrids have gone from being a curiosity to commonplace in only a decade. All-electric will probably do so over the next 10 years.
The biggest thing holding back research and advancement in battery tech over the decades has been cheap oil, due to the massive level of subsidy it has always enjoyed. You are not charged a price for it or its byproducts that reflects the total cost of providing it. As its price has risen above the rate of inflation over the last 10 years, finally other propulsion technologies are getting the attention they deserve.

petronius

I think city centre car parks should be mandated to have charging pods available - i.e. charge your car while it is parked - maybe an additional revenue streem for car parks or selling point for e-cars owners to use a specific car park

Maybe even mandate them to have say solar panals atop car parks so as to compliment the electricity provision.

petronius

I think charging pods in indoor car parks is a major benefit for the promotion of e-cars

The fact indoor car parks can be monitored by CCTV means it is more secure and less likely for vandalism, where as i always fear the on street e-chargers are prone to be damaged by vandals or even liable to be broken by exposure to the elements etc.