Infrastructure for electric cars: a good or bad idea?

antoobrien

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Strangely, it seems that frequency of charging has less effect on battery life than average external temperature and temperature deviation.

Not that strange at all, there's a reason there are operating temperature ranges printed in the manuals for all electronics. They don't often put in the optimum temperatures but it's usually 5c-20c.

The NYTimes did a writeup last week on a practical test of driving one of the Tesla S, which has a theoretical 265 mile (425km) range.

Unfortunately the practical test is far more downbeat than the review. The journo took it on a road trip from Washington to Boston on the I95 in December, planning to use the two fast charging stations along the route which are supposed to be well spaced for the model used. In summary he drove & charged the car as one expects a normal human to do and barley for the car to Boston, with utter an failure to get to the first station on the way back.

Tesla’s chief technology officer, J B Straubel, acknowledged that the two East Coast charging stations were at the mileage limit of the Model S’s real-world range. Making matters worse, cold weather inflicts about a 10 percent range penalty, he said, and running the heater draws yet more energy. He added that some range-related software problems still needed to be sorted out.

“It’s disappointing to me when things don’t work smoothly,” Mr. Straubel said in a post-mortem of my test drive. “It takes more planning than a typical gasoline car, no way around it.

What was it Bertie said? - a lot done, more to do.

ManAboutCouch

Regarding that NYTimes writeup, there are accusations that the reviewer took a long detour and didn't fully charge the car.

Tesla motors have detailed logs of the journey (something they do for media test-drives ever since the slating they got on Top Gear a few years back) but these haven't been released yet.

Still, I think we are somewhere between 5 to 10 years away from the point where a fully electric vehicle is a realistic option here in Ireland. Until that point hybrids and high efficiency initiatives (like BlueMotion) are probably the better option.

johnny-grunge

I think it's only a matter of time before the majority of people are driving electric cars. We're going to need somewhere to charge them. However, I'm also of the opinion that more research should be done before placing charging stations around the place as we've an awful habit of rushing things and making a balls of them.

Sometime in the not too distant future a litre of fuel is going to cost €5 then €10 quid and so on. It's inevitable.

antoobrien

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

Regarding that NYTimes writeup, there are accusations that the reviewer took a long detour and didn't fully charge the car.

And the rebuttal is also available.

When I first charged the car, which was equipped with the highest-capacity battery available, of 85 kilowatt-hours, at the Tesla Supercharger station in Newark, Del., I left it connected to the cable for 49 minutes until the dash display read “Charging Complete.” The battery meter read 90 percent full, with a range of 242 miles.

I was not directed by anyone at Tesla at any time to then switch to the Max Range setting and wait to top off the battery. If I had, I might have picked up an additional 25 or so miles of range, but that would have taken as long as 30 additional minutes.

As for the detour and accusations of inefficient use of the car

Mr. Musk has referred to a “long detour” on my trip. He is apparently referring to a brief stop in Manhattan on my way to Connecticut that, according to Google Maps, added precisely two miles to the overall distance traveled from the Delaware Supercharger to Milford (202 miles with the stop versus 200 miles had I taken the George Washington Bridge instead of the Lincoln Tunnel). At that point, I was already experiencing anxiety about range and had called a Tesla employee from the New Jersey Turnpike to ask how to stretch the battery. She said to shut off the cruise control to take advantage of battery regeneration from occasional braking and slowing down. Based on that advice, I was under the impression that stop-and-go driving at low speeds in the city would help, not hurt, my mileage.

Merch

johnny-grunge wrote: »

I think it's only a matter of time before the majority of people are driving electric cars. We're going to need somewhere to charge them. However, I'm also of the opinion that more research should be done before placing charging stations around the place as we've an awful habit of rushing things and making a balls of them.

Sometime in the not too distant future a litre of fuel is going to cost €5 then €10 quid and so on. It's inevitable.

And if/when motor/transport fuel does reach that point, dont you think the cost of fuel for electricity generation will also increase? heavy oil/gas/coal? especially if there is more demand as refined oils have become more expensive?

antoobrien wrote: »

And the rebuttal is also available.

Mr. Musk has referred to a “long detour” on my trip. He is apparently referring to a brief stop in Manhattan on my way to Connecticut that, according to Google Maps, added precisely two miles to the overall distance traveled from the Delaware Supercharger to Milford (202 miles with the stop versus 200 miles had I taken the George Washington Bridge instead of the Lincoln Tunnel). At that point, I was already experiencing anxiety about range and had called a Tesla employee from the New Jersey Turnpike to ask how to stretch the battery. She said to shut off the cruise control to take advantage of battery regeneration from occasional braking and slowing down. Based on that advice, I was under the impression that stop-and-go driving at low speeds in the city would help, not hurt, my mileage.
As for the detour and accusations of inefficient use of the car

I'm suprised they offered him that advice, Id have thought that maintaining a consistent speed using cruise control would use less battery power instead of relying on occasional braking and slowing for regeneration, especially as he said he was going to be using the I95 (a motorway/interstate)

johnny-grunge

I'm no expert but I'm sure energy can be obtained from other sources than burning stuff. Wind, wave, solar and nuclear to name a few. I'm sure you could put a human on a wheel to generate energy. There's always bio fuel but I don't think that has any real place in the future. The price of fuel will continue to rise. There really is no if about it.

antoobrien

Merch wrote: »

I'm suprised they offered him that advice, Id have thought that maintaining a consistent speed using cruise control would use less battery power instead of relying on occasional braking and slowing for regeneration, especially as he said he was going to be using the I95 (a motorway/interstate)

It's hard to credit and in the original article, after being advised to turn off the cruise control (without explaining why he was advised to do so), he does mention that the company admitted that this advice was wrong:

Nearing New York, I made the first of several calls to Tesla officials about my creeping range anxiety. The woman who had delivered the car told me to turn off the cruise control; company executives later told me that advice was wrong. All the while, my feet were freezing and my knuckles were turning white.

antoobrien

johnny-grunge wrote: »

I'm no expert but I'm sure energy can be obtained from other sources than burning stuff. Wind, wave, solar and nuclear to name a few. I'm sure you could put a human on a wheel to generate energy. There's always bio fuel but I don't think that has any real place in the future. The price of fuel will continue to rise. There really is no if about it.

There's a cost to putting the human on a wheel - how do you transport the food used to feed the gunea pig?

Since it seems to escape people just how much of our electricity is from CO2 producing sources here's a breakdown of just how much electricity is produced bt category:
Source | %
Coal | 41.4
Hydro | 15.4
Natural Gas | 20.8
Nuclear | 13.7
Oil | 5.3
Other | 3.8


Source:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/world/electricity-production-kwh-wb-data.html

Before e-cars can be regarded as green we have to get away from "dirty" sources of electricity. For practical reasons I'd much rather see investment go into investigating the safe storage and use of hydrogen fuels, which would not require a major overhaul of the refuelling network.

Aidan1

The problems with hydrogen over electricity for road transport are twofold. The first issue is the fact that there is an existing distribution mechanism for electricity, and that properly managed EV charging could actually reduce the price of electricity over time (by smoothing out the demand curve). For hydrogen you'd have to build an entirely new supply chain. The second issue is that it takes energy to make and compress hydrogen, usually electrical energy*.

On that basis it's really a question of the relative efficiency with which you can make and transport hydrogen using electricity vs the efficiency with which you can transmit and distribute electricity (loss of load), along with conversion losses to/from battery storage.

Either way, you still need more electricity generation capacity. Hydogen makes a lot of sense for other reasons though, and if storage could be resolved(or cheaper cracking of water) then hydrogen fuel cells are a real runner. Of course, those are essentially EVs, so fuel cell PHEVs might well be the optimal solution.

*Yes, some industrial processes already make hydrogen, and vent it as waste, but that 'free' volume would run out very quickly.

OssianSmyth

antoobrien wrote: »

here's a breakdown of just how much electricity is produced bt category:
Source | %
Coal | 41.4
Hydro | 15.4
Natural Gas | 20.8
Nuclear | 13.7
Oil | 5.3
Other | 3.8

By the above data, a third of electricity is produced from non-CO2 emitting sources. Individual countries will be different. Iceland is at 100% renewable electricity, Austria at 60%, Portugal and Sweden at 50%. Ireland will be at 40% in 8 years.

Additionally, power stations are twice as efficient as individual car engines, even allowing for distribution and charging losses. So there is a clear argument for using electricity rather than fossil fuels in cars - it's not just a case of burning the same amount of fuel in one place or another.

maninasia

foggy_lad wrote: »

I cant see those proposed quick change charging places working either where you could easily be swopping your new cars battery for someone elses knackered old set.

That's not the way they would work, the battery change stations would own the batteries, you would just rent them.

maninasia

Aidan1 wrote: »

The problems with hydrogen over electricity for road transport are twofold. The first issue is the fact that there is an existing distribution mechanism for electricity, and that properly managed EV charging could actually reduce the price of electricity over time (by smoothing out the demand curve). For hydrogen you'd have to build an entirely new supply chain. The second issue is that it takes energy to make and compress hydrogen, usually electrical energy*.

On that basis it's really a question of the relative efficiency with which you can make and transport hydrogen using electricity vs the efficiency with which you can transmit and distribute electricity (loss of load), along with conversion losses to/from battery storage.

Either way, you still need more electricity generation capacity. Hydogen makes a lot of sense for other reasons though, and if storage could be resolved(or cheaper cracking of water) then hydrogen fuel cells are a real runner. Of course, those are essentially EVs, so fuel cell PHEVs might well be the optimal solution.

*Yes, some industrial processes already make hydrogen, and vent it as waste, but that 'free' volume would run out very quickly.

There are a LOT of issues with Hydrogen
1. Storage capacity , less energy per unit volume
2. Does not exist in pure form in nature, every refining step takes energy
3. Still unproven and many unknowns in fuel cell technology

I agree if renewable energy could be converted into hydrogen at an agreeable cost if might be a runner as a sort of energy storage mechanism. Right now though I don't see the point when natural gas is so abundant. The main issue is cost, I don't see how it competes with diesel, petrol, electricity or natural gas. That's a HUGE problem.

I would see natural gas powering many of the world's automobiles before hydrogen does.

Heroditas

OssianSmyth wrote: »

An EV needs a charger which is connected to the existing electricity grid. A fast charger like this one costs €10,000 and gives you 20KW. Attach it to a 3 phase power supply and that's it. There are about 1,000 petrol stations in Ireland so to equip each would be about €10m plus installation. Barely enough to pay for 5 train carriages or 1km of motorway.

The issue is upgrading the distribution network to handle all those charge points.
That will cost a lot more than €10m, depending on where the stations are.

lockon...

OssianSmyth wrote: »

An EV needs a charger which is connected to the existing electricity grid. A fast charger like this one costs €10,000 and gives you 20KW. Attach it to a 3 phase power supply and that's it. There are about 1,000 petrol stations in Ireland so to equip each would be about €10m plus installation. Barely enough to pay for 5 train carriages or 1km of motorway.

That's the purchase cost, it will cost triple that to install.

As a nation, however, we have invested €23,300 in every electric car sold since 2009, with Electric Ireland having spent €3.9 million installing charging points for public, domestic and business use. Sustainable Energy Ireland has also paid €573,600 in grants to buyers of electric vehicles, a scheme designed to encourage early adopters.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2012/1017/1224325325202.htm

I don't see much bang for our €3.9m, in fact Electric Ireland have only installed 30 fast charger points by the end of 2012

OssianSmyth

Heroditas wrote: »

The issue is upgrading the distribution network to handle all those charge points.
That will cost a lot more than €10m, depending on where the stations are.

Do we need distribution network upgrades to allow 20kw charging from a standard petrol station? A standard carwash uses that much.

Most charging takes place at home at night or else at work during the day at 3 or 4kw. Does the grid need strengthening for that? Does a noticeable impact on the grid not require a reasonable market share for EVs - something not likely in the near future?

Ireland's support policies for EVs fit with a wider global program run by the IEA where a number of countries commit to supporting EVs strategically http://www.iea.org/topics/transport/electricvehiclesinitiative/
Even the US pays a $7500 subsidy for EVs. The aim is to catalyse a market for non-fossil fuel cars, thus providing the incentives for car firms to develop electric models.

foggy_lad

maninasia wrote: »

That's not the way they would work, the battery change stations would own the batteries, you would just rent them.

So you swap your €10000 batteries for a rental set and hope that you get your own batteries back at some stage without any damage? Sounds very much like how apple operate, give your batteries in for service and get back someone else's refurbished set.

Heroditas

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Do we need distribution network upgrades to allow 20kw charging from a standard petrol station? A standard carwash uses that much.

As I said, it depends on which petrol stations they are installed in. Most petrol stations are on DG5 tariffs - i.e. GP or GPNS tariffs.
Adding over 25kVA to a site will push it up into the DG6 band. That requires quite a bit of investment, particularly if you're upgrading the copper wires in the middle of nowhere.

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Most charging takes place at home at night or else at work during the day at 3 or 4kw. Does the grid need strengthening for that? Does a noticeable impact on the grid not require a reasonable market share for EVs - something not likely in the near future?

What has that got to do with investment in the fast chargers?
Also, grid investment needs to be planned now if we're looking even at a long term rollout of EVs.

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Ireland's support policies for EVs fit with a wider global program run by the IEA where a number of countries commit to supporting EVs strategically http://www.iea.org/topics/transport/electricvehiclesinitiative/
Even the US pays a $7500 subsidy for EVs. The aim is to catalyse a market for non-fossil fuel cars, thus providing the incentives for car firms to develop electric models.

I'm in two minds regarding EVs. On the one hand, they're ideal for the short city hops. However, touting them as the answer to commuters is wrong IMO. We should be improving public transport and getting those people out of any sort of cars and into buses, trams, DARTs etc.
The other option is they are being suggested as ideal for the school runs or general pottering around the city. Again, we should improve public transport.

Bar cleaner air, I don't see the benefit in replacing traffic jams of petrol/diesel cars with traffic jams of EVs.

OssianSmyth

Heroditas wrote: »

As I said, it depends on which petrol stations they are installed in. Most petrol stations are on DG5 tariffs - i.e. GP or GPNS tariffs.
Adding over 25kVA to a site will push it up into the DG6 band. That requires quite a bit of investment, particularly if you're upgrading the copper wires in the middle of nowhere.

Fair enough, I didn't know. So these filling stations couldn't take a small 20kw car wash either?

Heroditas wrote:

Also, grid investment needs to be planned now if we're looking even at a long term rollout of EVs.

We certainly need a wide network of chargers before most people would consider buying an EV - even if the chargers are rarely used in practice.

Bar cleaner air, I don't see the benefit in replacing traffic jams of petrol/diesel cars with traffic jams of EVs.

Yes, congestion and accidents are the same. But air quality, energy efficiency, CO2 emissions,noise pollution and energy trade balance are improved. Nobody is pushing EVs as a transport silver bullet - even in cities. Cycling, public transport PHEVs e-bikes will all have an increased role. PHEVs are predicted to sell far more than EVs yet there are none on the Irish market yet. So early days.

Heroditas

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Fair enough, I didn't know. So these filling stations couldn't take a small 20kw car wash either?

No, not at all. A lot of those smaller stations would have an MIC in or around the 29kVA region. That's not to say that they may occasionally be pulling more than that but that was all they were awarded as capacity by ESB Networks when they were built and that's all the capacity that might be available.

It's going to be intriguing though to see what does happen if there's any sort of uptake with EVs. Even with a 3 or 4kW charge point in homes, if we have 100,000 vehicles - that's the equivalent output of a 300MW power plant!!!

OssianSmyth

300MW running at night off-peak. So no additional generation needed.
This is the blog of a long distance Irish commuter who has used an EV for a year. You get a more positive story than from a journalist who tried it for a day.

http://selfficiency.wordpress.com/automotive/nissan-leaf-diary/

antoobrien

Aidan1 wrote: »

The problems with hydrogen over electricity for road transport are twofold. The first issue is the fact that there is an existing distribution mechanism for electricity, and that properly managed EV charging could actually reduce the price of electricity over time (by smoothing out the demand curve). For hydrogen you'd have to build an entirely new supply chain. The second issue is that it takes energy to make and compress hydrogen, usually electrical energy*.

There's a lot more research going on onto this than is easily appreciated. In fact fuel cell powered cars are supposed to be going on sale in the uk in 2015.

There's a consortium UKH2Mobility which includes/partners with Hyndai, Nissan, Toyota, Daimler that has just produced a report for what they think is needed for a network of hydrogen refuelling stations (HRS) to support a fleet of 1.5m FCEVs (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles) across the UK by 2030.

One of the chief advantages of this to me over traditional battery power is that the fuelling time will be closer to what we expect with liquid fuels, and it should only require a change to the existing tank infrastructure, rather than requiring new power lines be brought to the filling stations.

I think it also makes the role of "inconsistent" renewable energy sources better as they can be directed into the manufacture of hydrogen instead of trying to put their energy onto the grid.

maninasia

You've ignored my post about the issues with Hydrogen above.

Why bother getting Hydrogen when natural gas is already a low CO2 emissions fuel , relatively clean fuel and also will ALWAYS be cheaper than Hydrogen?

Cost is the problem. If you understand chemistry there's not really a way around this as far as I can tell, you have CH4 (methane) existing pretty much ready to go and massively abundant supplies of the stuff coming online around the world from the US, Australia, Qatar, Russia and probably from China too.

Hydrogen doesn't exist in nature, so to refine it takes too much energy and then you have associated storage and transportation issues. The ONLY way it will come into its own if somehow people invent efficient processes to crack it from water, but batteries will probably get there much faster if they keep improving.

In the link given above, they claim H2 would 'decarbonise road transport', which is exactly the same lie told by some electric car proponents. And it doesn't exist in nature how do you make enough of it at the right price to push out other low Carbon emissions fuels that are much cheaper?

Many European countries are close to bankruptcy (the UK is hugely indebted as is France and Italy) and also have major issues looming with pension entitlements, I don't see Hydrogen fitting with the economic future of Europe or indeed pretty much anywhere else for many many decades.

antoobrien

maninasia wrote: »

You've ignored my post about the issues with Hydrogen above.

Why bother getting Hydrogen when natural gas is already a low CO2 emissions fuel , relatively clean fuel and also will ALWAYS be cheaper than Hydrogen?

Cost is the problem.

Two contrary points:

cost was a problem with wind 20 years ago, as well as technical issues. Investment has help to reduce both of those problems to manageable proportions. Initial technologies tend to be expensive, which lets face it that's where fuel cells are vs natural gas & batteries.

Natural gas is not a renewable fuel and, while it's not likely to run out in our lifetime, there is only so much of it in places that we can harvest.

maninasia

I believe there are massive reserves of natural gas available, 100-200 years by some estimates. I don't think we should burn all of that, and I would like a no carbon alternative, but I have major problems understanding how Hydrogen fits into that without economically.

Remember, playing around with expensive fuel cells and expensive Hydrogen in a few small rich countries has absolutely no effect on global CO2 emissions. Even with optimistic predictions it wouldn't even appear on roads in rich countries in any significant numbers for 20-30 years.

I'm obviously based in Asia and VERY keenly aware of the massive energy demands, the price sensitivity of energy/fuel along with the huge environmental challenges.

maninasia

foggy_lad wrote: »

So you swap your €10000 batteries for a rental set and hope that you get your own batteries back at some stage without any damage? Sounds very much like how apple operate, give your batteries in for service and get back someone else's refurbished set.

Have a look at the video!
http://www.betterplace.com/our-story

antoobrien

maninasia wrote: »

Remember, playing around with expensive fuel cells and expensive Hydrogen in a few small rich countries has absolutely no effect on global CO2 emissions. Even with optimistic predictions it wouldn't even appear on roads in rich countries in any significant numbers for 20-30 years.

I'm obviously based in Asia and VERY keenly aware of the massive energy demands, the price sensitivity of energy/fuel along with the huge environmental challenges.

I think that we should be targeting developing these technologies for those counties. I never thought I'd have to wear a face mask in public until I went to Mumbai last year, so I can see the benefit of say converting all the rickshaws from two stroke diesels to electricity.

However I think you're being a bit pessimistic about the potential for uptake. The report I linked earlier allows for 1.5m vehicles in the uk over a 20 year time frame, that's at least in line with (if not more ambitious than) the targets for battery powered EVs e.g. Boris Johnson's call to get 25,000 in London by 2015 (not sure if it was in 2011 or earlier).

bk

Many people seem to have this range anxiety, but the reality is that even with todays infrastructure, electric cars are perfectly reasonable for he majority of people and Ireland is almost perfectly suited to it, due to being a small island and relatively short distances.

While I don't have numbers for Ireland, the average daily driving distance in the UK is 25 miles. Easily within the limits of almost all electric cars with over night charging at home. The majority of electric cars have well over 100 miles on a full charge, you wouldn't even need to charge every night!!

In the US it was found, that even if all cars switched to battery, there would be enough electricity generation capacity for overnight charging, to charge 80% of those vehicles, without needing to build a single new power plant.

Remember, much less electricity is used over night, but most coal, oil and Nuclear power plants continue to generate electricity all night long, which ends up going unused at the moment, because these type of power generators can't be turned on or off quickly and have to be kept running all night (FYI hydro and gas turbines can be spun up or down quickly in response to demand). That is why you have much cheaper night saver rates.

This makes overnight charging of a large number of electric vehicles, very feasible, even with todays infrastructure.

Another great advantage is that electric cars can act as battery storage for excess electricity generated, for instance from wind power, that can be feed back into the grid at busy times.

For instance imagine you daily commute to work is just 30 miles return, but your battery capacity is 150 miles. When you get to work, you plug in your car. During an offpeak time, lots of wind is blowing, so it fills your car battery. However you only need 15 miles to get home, so you allow your car to feed say 75 miles worth of electricity back into the grid at a peak time and actually earn money for it.

This can go a long way to fixing one of the biggest issues with wind power, it's unpredictability and lack of storage.

For long distance driving, there are a couple of solutions:

1) Plug-in hybrids like the Volt and new Prius and Focus. A small battery with enough charge to get you 30 miles, the typical daily commute and then switch to petrol after this. Probably the best solution for people who do a lot of long distance driving.

2) Own a fully electric car for daily driving and then simply rent a "normal" petrol car for infrequent long distance driving. In the US, Nissan actually gives you 10 days of free car rentals per year, which you can use for the odd long distance journey.

3) Superchargers at lots of petrol stations, supermarkets etc.

To be honest, the distance thing shouldn't be too much of an issue really in Ireland. Given that Ireland is an island and the geography and demographics, very very few people regularly drive truly long distances. With Dublin being in the middle of the country and the majority of "medium" distance trips being too and from it.

Cork to Dublin is probably the longest regular long distance journey people do here. That is 158 miles, a Tesla with over 200 miles capacity can easily do that without recharging. A Nissan Leaf can do it with just one stop and super charge.

So realistically you don't even really need that many superchargers.

But lets look at it, it was mentioned above that it would cost 10 million to equip every garage in the country with a supercharger. Ok that's not a realistic number, so lets figure out what is.

It cost the ESB €3.9 million to install 30 super chargers (actually this amount also includes many level 2 charges, but anyway less ignore that for the moment). So that is €130,000 per charger. So to equip 1000 garages, it would cost €130 million

Now that might sound like a lot of money, but for an infrastructure project it is actually very reasonable. To put it in context, Metro North will cost 2 billion, the interconnector 1.5 billion, this year alone they are going to spend €40 million on the Dublin Bike scheme and other bike path schemes in Dublin alone. €130 million to equip every garage in Ireland with super chargers seems like a very reasonable cost.

BTW the real cost would be more like €80 million, the ESB cost above includes many level 2 chargers that aren't accounted for.

Remeber you don't really need that many superchargers. Most people will just charge at home over night. You really just need a couple of superchargers along the motorways to deal with long distance and a couple around each city with the opps I forgot to charge my car moments.

BBTW Simple garages aren't really the best places to put chargers. The best places for level 2 chargers are train stations, business parks and city car parks, where people will leave their car charging for a few hours. Superchargers are probably best located in the car parks of cafes, restaurants and supermarkets, so you can go do other things while charging (of course off motorway garages with restaurants etc. too).

As for hydrogen cell cars, from everything I have read about it, it seems like a complete non runner, at least in the short to medium term. It is a very expensive and difficult technology. Natural gas powered cars seem far more likely. Either direct natural gas or so called e-gas, a synthetic natural gas created using coal and hydrogen. The advantage is that natural gas engines are much simpler and cheaper and much closer to existing engine and distribution technology. In fact 15 million natural gas cars exist in the world today!! Far more then electric or hydrogen and they even can take either petrol or compressed natural gas.

The best thing about it is that existing petrol cars can relatively easily and cheaply converted to it. No need for expensive new technology like hydrogen cells.

Also the distribution infrastructure for it is much simpler. You just need to plug into the natural gas pipelines. Bord gais pipelines already run along all the major motorways of Ireland and is widely present in all our cities and most of our towns.

Really it is truly an unsung technology, very practical and widely used.

My suspicion, it is the oil industry who push the idea of hydrogen cell technology, knowing that realistically it isn't viable for a very long time, but distracts people from my realistic alternatives that are available today.

I believe that in the short to medium term we will be switching to all battery and hybrid petrol plug-ins, medium to long term, all battery and hydrid natural gas plug-ins and maybe in the very long term all battery and hydrid natural gas/hydrogen plug-ins.

maninasia

Interesting article and rebuttal from New York Times and Tesla regarding test drive of Model S on the US East coast.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-what-it-says-and-what-it-doesnt/?src=recg

To me the basic problem is current lack of infrastructure more than anything ALONG with the fact that he didn't plug it in at night. The same issues might occur if you only had one gas station every 100 miles.

bk

OssianSmyth wrote: »

This is the blog of a long distance Irish commuter who has used an EV for a year. You get a more positive story than from a journalist who tried it for a day.

http://selfficiency.wordpress.com/automotive/nissan-leaf-diary/

Wow, I spent a few hours reading this blog and it is a truly amazing read.

I've read a lot about EV's and while I've been convinced that they are perfect for short to medium commutes, I wasn't so certain about long commutes. But this blog has totally changed my mind. This guy commutes 220km to work every day with an EV here in Ireland and he seems to have had little problem with it. I would consider that a long commute and the max almost anyone would do even with a petrol car.

It also shows the infrastructure that even at this early stage is already available here in Ireland.

To summarise the blog for people here:

- He charges over night and then drives 110km into Dublin city.
- He then parks the car at a public ESB charging point and leaves it there charging while he is at the office.
- He then drives it home.
- He uses other fast chargers from time to time to top up.
- He also seems to drive around the country a lot on weekend trips, even down to Cork and it all seems totally doable, just pulling into garages with fast chargers and topping up for a few minutes while getting a coffee.

That isn't to say that he hasn't had issues along the way:

- The biggest issue seems to be inconsiderate ICE drivers parking in the charging bays.
- One model of charger used seemed to be unreliable and breaking down frequently, but that seems to be improving.

These are early adaptor issues and ESB ecars seems to be doing a great job of learning from them and improving them quickly, I'm really impressed.

From this blog it looks like much of the infrastructure to support EV's is already in place here in Ireland

The one thing I will look forward to seeing from this blog is how the total cost of ownership works out over a number of years. He has worked out that he is saving about €600 in fuel every 7000km, plus maintenance fees seem much cheaper. On the other hand an EV currently costs more to buy then an equivalent ICE car, plus there will be the eventual battery replacement cost. It will be interesting to see how all this works out over a number of years.

lockon...

It wrecked my head wondering what "ICE" was. Internal Combustion Engine...I focking hate electric cars.

naturalblue

bk wrote: »

Wow, I spent a few hours reading this blog and it is a truly amazing read.

I've read a lot about EV's and while I've been convinced that they are perfect for short to medium commutes, I wasn't so certain about long commutes. But this blog has totally changed my mind. This guy commutes 220km to work every day with an EV here in Ireland and he seems to have had little problem with it. I would consider that a long commute and the max almost anyone would do even with a petrol car.

It also shows the infrastructure that even at this early stage is already available here in Ireland.

To summarise the blog for people here:

- He charges over night and then drives 110km into Dublin city.
- He then parks the car at a public ESB charging point and leaves it there charging while he is at the office.
- He then drives it home.
- He uses other fast chargers from time to time to top up.
- He also seems to drive around the country a lot on weekend trips, even down to Cork and it all seems totally doable, just pulling into garages with fast chargers and topping up for a few minutes while getting a coffee.

That isn't to say that he hasn't had issues along the way:

- The biggest issue seems to be inconsiderate ICE drivers parking in the charging bays.
- One model of charger used seemed to be unreliable and breaking down frequently, but that seems to be improving.

These are early adaptor issues and ESB ecars seems to be doing a great job of learning from them and improving them quickly, I'm really impressed.

From this blog it looks like much of the infrastructure to support EV's is already in place here in Ireland

The one thing I will look forward to seeing from this blog is how the total cost of ownership works out over a number of years. He has worked out that he is saving about €600 in fuel every 7000km, plus maintenance fees seem much cheaper. On the other hand an EV currently costs more to buy then an equivalent ICE car, plus there will be the eventual battery replacement cost. It will be interesting to see how all this works out over a number of years.

Hi BK
Thanks for the write up. Glad you like the blog. Keep your eye on it, I'll keep it up to date as long as people are reading.

bk

naturalblue wrote: »

Thanks for the write up. Glad you like the blog. Keep your eye on it, I'll keep it up to date as long as people are reading.

Excellent blog, keep up the great work. It is exactly this sort of real world experience that will convince people to give electric vehicles a chance an dispel many of the myths

foggy_lad

What is the range of these vehicles when they are carrying passengers and luggage? How about with 4 adults including driver and 200kg of luggage and a couple of surfboards strapped to the roof?

People don't want to be stopping every 80-100km for half an hour or more to recharge.

OssianSmyth

foggy_lad wrote: »

What is the range of these vehicles when they are carrying passengers and luggage? How about with 4 adults including driver and 200kg of luggage and a couple of surfboards strapped to the roof?

kills the range by 30% according [URL="http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075853_polite-reminder-roof-
racks-will-kill-your-electric-car-range"]to this[/URL]
If you're hauling heavy loads or doing regular >150km trips then diesel is probably best

This is an interesting look at fuel cells and liquid nitrogen as a possible future alternative to EVs
http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/10/nitrogen-cycle

Merch

OssianSmyth wrote: »

kills the range by 30% according to this
If you're hauling heavy loads or doing regular >150km trips then diesel is probably best

This is an interesting look at fuel cells and liquid nitrogen as a possible future alternative to EVs
http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2012/10/nitrogen-cycle

liquid nitrogen, looks promising
its not really an EV though, unless the compessed nitrogen drives a motor for some ancillary motor for powering lights??
I wonder would it have stages to decompress before being exhausted out of the vehicle? hmm
Also I wonder what effects regional variations of temp would have?

Hotblack Desiato

There was some work done on compressed air cars in France (they have a light car licence category) I imagine the LN2 cars would work on a similar principle, allow it to boil and expand and do work in a piston (or perhas a turbine) engine. A way of storing and using the electricity used to make the LN2 to begin with.
LN2 is a lot easier and cheaper to handle than liquid hydrogen as its boiling point is much higher, it's also inert and non-combustible.

nokia69

lockon... wrote: »

It wrecked my head wondering what "ICE" was. Internal Combustion Engine...I focking hate electric cars.

Why ?

if you like driving ICE cars then you should love electric cars, it means more petrol or diesel for you

what would happen to the price of oil if everyone in the US changed to electric cars

also I am willing to bet if you got the chance to drive a model S your hate would soon disapear

maninasia

It's not really worth replying to such a statement is it?

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

What is the range of these vehicles when they are carrying passengers and luggage? How about with 4 adults including driver and 200kg of luggage and a couple of surfboards strapped to the roof?

The blog covers that. He has taken full car loads of people and even carried washing machines in the trunk, with no noticeable difference in electricity used.

I'm sure there is a hit, someone else mentioned 30%, but that seems reasonable and in reality how often do most people carry such loads. The vast majority of people it is just one or two people, heading to work etc.

foggy_lad wrote: »

People don't want to be stopping every 80-100km for half an hour or more to recharge.

Firstly you are really underestimating the mileage. Naturalblue drives 112km every day one way with just an overnight charge.

Second, in reality how often do most people actually travel such distances.

A survey in the US (where people drive much further then in Ireland) found that the average daily distance travelled by car was 30 miles. That the average distance for one trip was 7 miles and that 99% never drove more then 60 miles.

So the reality is that fully electric cars are very well suited to the vast majority of drivers.

For exceptional people who do lots of long distance driving, like sales people, etc. Then obviously a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle * or just a straight up energy efficient diesel is the better choice.

* PHEV are electric vehicles that have a small battery that is good enough for 30 miles, enough to cover most peoples daily commutes, while also having a petrol tank and engine for longer distances. A good compromise for some people with more extreme driving needs IMO.

L1011

bk wrote: »

- He then parks the car at a public ESB charging point and leaves it there charging while he is at the office.

Blocking a charger for 8 hours - just as well there's so few other EV users.

Aidan1

MYOB - A lot of the earlier studies on EV use showed that people very quickly stopped using the public charging points for EVs once they got used to them. When Mini did their first set of tests in Paris, they found that 'range anxiety' tailed off very quickly, and participants began to treat their cars just like any other car, except they plugged it in at home every now and then. The trial results indicated (according to BMW and to the French Govt) that street chargers would probably make up 90% of the total number of chargers, but only be responsible for 10% of the actual charging. In other words, the real purpose of the on street chargers for many motorists is to be there as reassurance - many EV users will very seldom need to use them.

As BK keeps saying, the average car journey, here or elsewhere, is a lot less than even the range of the early BEVs we have at the moment. People can easily do a return commute, or even a series of them, on a single charge. The fast chargers are slightly different in that they facilitate longer journeys, but even they will probably see less and less use over time. After all, a BEV made the (West) Cork-Dublin trip without a recharge in 2010. The next generation of BEVs will have higher capacity batteries again; it'll take another iteration again before these are mass market vehicles, but there are a cohort of PHEVs coming that look very practical already.

Stonewolf

Here's a question to tickle your brain juices.

I live in an apartment on an estate, I don't have specifically designated parking (but tend to park in the same place). The car parking spaces themselves are outside the bounds of my tenancy (or indeed my landlords holding if you prefer to view it that way). There is no provision at all whatsoever for EV charging and I wouldn't expect the management company to have any interest in going through the headache of trying to figure out how to set it up.

Now, I'm not all that interested in getting an EV at the moment, nor will I be for some time but I think my situation is probably typical of a significant number of people living in the areas best suited to EV deployment. My question is this, in the face of the above situation, how are people expected to be able to switch to EVs and how would you structure a program, with minimal subsidy, to help them get access to home charging.

foggy_lad

Stonewolf wrote: »

Here's a question to tickle your brain juices.

I live in an apartment on an estate, I don't have specifically designated parking (but tend to park in the same place). The car parking spaces themselves are outside the bounds of my tenancy (or indeed my landlords holding if you prefer to view it that way). There is no provision at all whatsoever for EV charging and I wouldn't expect the management company to have any interest in going through the headache of trying to figure out how to set it up.

Now, I'm not all that interested in getting an EV at the moment, nor will I be for some time but I think my situation is probably typical of a significant number of people living in the areas best suited to EV deployment. My question is this, in the face of the above situation, how are people expected to be able to switch to EVs and how would you structure a program, with minimal subsidy, to help them get access to home charging.

Perhaps the more important question should be how can owners of these cars who dont have their own driveway (which is a huge number of people) plug them in outside their homes and apartments without the risk of pedestrians tripping over the charging cable and suing the property owner?

Merch

foggy_lad wrote: »

Perhaps the more important question should be how can owners of these cars who dont have their own driveway (which is a huge number of people) plug them in outside their homes and apartments without the risk of pedestrians tripping over the charging cable and suing the property owner?

Or the very likely possibility of having people tamper with them, either by unplugging them or ripping them out.

Stonewolf

foggy_lad wrote: »

Perhaps the more important question should be how can owners of these cars who dont have their own driveway (which is a huge number of people) plug them in outside their homes and apartments without the risk of pedestrians tripping over the charging cable and suing the property owner?

Well, in my case, I'd nip down to Coolmine in the morning and take up 50% of the charging bays for the entire day which just feels wrong as I should be able to do it at home.

I guess one solution might be to install chargers at the spaces (possibly not all of them) and issue some sort of tag to residents who asked for them to track who needed to pay for the electricity but then you'd be getting into a load of account management headache. Providing an out of the box solution for that (in which the mgmt company don't have to do anything and just contract someone else to do it for them) would probably be a good business model if someone hasn't already nabbed it. Especially if you can install overhead solar in the spaces.

OssianSmyth

Stonewolf wrote: »

My question is this, in the face of the above situation [apartment living] , how are people expected to be able to switch to EVs and how would you structure a program, with minimal subsidy, to help them get access to home charging.

The ESB will install a free external power RCD for new EVs. If you live in an apartment you need the written consent of the mgmt co. In future, apartment car parks should have EV points included as part of planning permission. This could be included in Part L of the next revision of the building regs, or in the regional or county development plans. The next NEEAP (national building energy efficiency strategy) is due in 2014 and a requirement for charging points in new apartments and commercial buildings could be included.

A number of companies are developing payment systems for shared private charging systems. (swipe card)

foggy_lad wrote: »

how can owners of these cars who dont have their own driveway (which is a huge number of people) plug them in outside their homes and apartments without the risk of pedestrians tripping over the charging cable and suing the property owner?

I've seen this kind of cable cover used.
Realistically you can't leave unprotected cables across a footpath.

Merch wrote: »

Or the very likely possibility of having people tamper with them, either by unplugging them or ripping them out.

You need locking cables. Some cable connector types lock and some don't. You can't legislate for people cutting the wires. There are reachable wires entering houses around the country. They're not often cut.

Merch

OssianSmyth wrote: »

The ESB will install a free external power RCD for new EVs. If you live in an apartment you need the written consent of the mgmt co. In future, apartment car parks should have EV points included as part of planning permission. This could be included in Part L of the next revision of the building regs, or in the regional or county development plans. The next NEEAP (national building energy efficiency strategy) is due in 2014 and a requirement for charging points in new apartments and commercial buildings could be included.

A number of companies are developing payment systems for shared private charging systems. (swipe card)

I've seen this kind of cable cover used.
Realistically you can't leave unprotected cables across a footpath.


You need locking cables. Some cable connector types lock and some don't. You can't legislate for people cutting the wires. There are reachable wires entering houses around the country. They're not often cut.

People are reasonably concerned about slicing through a 230v AC cabling, this is going to be what? DC how many volts? Not that Id attempt it myself, no expert, but I think Ive read of injuries with high DC?

What do you mean locking cables, is this a specific cabling type??? or do you just mean secure?

I'd have imagined the manufacturers of the vehicles would have come up with a specific compatible charger for their own vehicles (at least for the owners home if they have one) charging point that could flexibly (to account for slightly different position of the vehicle) connect securely to the vehicle and provide charging with peace of mind. While generic units would presumably located on street to allow charging of any EV.

When I think about it, its like leaving your petrol cap open and a slow fill overnight, that would draw someones attention, with the view to tampering with it.

I suppose you can only account so much for vandalism, if someone really wants to have a go at it, they will.

foggy_lad

OssianSmyth wrote: »

The ESB will install a free external power RCD for new EVs. If you live in an apartment you need the written consent of the mgmt co. In future, apartment car parks should have EV points included as part of planning permission. This could be included in Part L of the next revision of the building regs, or in the regional or county development plans. The next NEEAP (national building energy efficiency strategy) is due in 2014 and a requirement for charging points in new apartments and commercial buildings could be included.

A number of companies are developing payment systems for shared private charging systems. (swipe card)

I've seen this kind of cable cover used.
Realistically you can't leave unprotected cables across a footpath.


You need locking cables. Some cable connector types lock and some don't. You can't legislate for people cutting the wires. There are reachable wires entering houses around the country. They're not often cut.

So you cover the cable then some local toe rag comes along and laughing with their mates decides to cut through the cable and possibly gets an almighty shock?? Who does (s)he claim against? It wont be the ESB it will be the householder and (s)he will win.

OssianSmyth

hence the RCD

Enduro

Thinking about billing and/or theft of electricity (unplugging someone else's car and plugging in your own whilst they're away from the vehicle)... I'm guessing it should be possible to pass data from the vehicle to the charging system (And vice versa) over the wires. If each vehicle has a unique ID (similar to the way each ethernet device /sim card / mobile phone has), then it should be reasonably straighforward to ensure that the correct owner is billed for any electricity used. It would also faciliate buying charging in a similar way to buying credit for a mobile phone (i.e multiple possibilites depending on your choice / credit rating, and many different ways of paying for public charging points). Home charging points could be easily configured to only charge specific recognised IDs.

Is this the way the system currently works, and if not is there any reason why it couldn't work this way?