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Taking your hits and overkill!

  • 23-05-2010 9:08am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 634 OddysAirsoft


    I have noticed lately whilst videoing airsoft the difference in how some people take their hits.

    Hit taking is ALWAYS a thorny issue as so often bickering breaks out of non hit taking.

    My observation is that some guys take their hits properly. As they are Hit they put their hand or gun up and YELL, SCREAM or SHOUT that they have been hit. This way the guy who has shot them knows and moves onto their next target.

    But more often than not I have filmed guys who do none of the above. They get hit and they half put up their hand and just lay there or they mutter under their breath they are hit (when the guy who is shooting is a distance off they can't hear it) which leads to the guy doing the shooting 'over-killing' the target because he doesn't know he has hit his target. Or they half put their hand up and walk away.

    So please Airsofters make sure you yell out your hits and raise your hand or gun good and high. It will make for a better days gaming!

    All marshals should enforce this as a standard rule!


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 Puding


    I would not say it is always an issue but it can have it's moments

    first step is , does the site include hit taking in the briefing not just about taking hits but also how to tale hits , the sites I play at hear and when traveling include the process in the briefings ( this helps as the details can be a little different between sites and even games, try a VIP escort ge where plays have to drop after taking a hit without a word, completely changes the dynamic )

    Also experiences and inexperienced guys should be mixed as much as possible , the inexperienced guy young and old have a habit of learning from people around them so if one player is taking hits like you described it soon spreads and becomes the accepted practice

    A big one is that when I see people taking hits like you described it's a massive sign that there not enjoying themselves, normal happens if there is poor moral in the group or there is no chance of winning basically a complete loss of moral, it is some thing marshals need to be looking at , it could just be that person is having a bad day or it could be that there is a problem with the game dynamics or the team

    overkill, well it happens I've done it and I've been on the reviving end, I can easily happen if I fire at a person at mid range and hit them with the first round and they shout hit, by the time I react there is already more bb hitting that person and more in the air , this is not really an issue if mids are used a lot but where high caps are common and people using long burst and walk bb,s onto targets instead it can happen a lot

    the other end is players who like to do it, fortunately there few are far between but there out there, also where not hit taking is common overkill seems to sometimes become the accepted practice to try and combat the problem and it gets used all the time, " just in case" as one person once told me. Personal o see this as the wrong attitude


    Just my 2 cents on the subject based on my experience


  • Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭ Bemused


    Agree with Puding that there are lots of potential reasons for someone calling their hits in an ineffective manner and that the briefing can play a huge roll in encouraging the group to do it in the right way. In my experience people generally call them well enough but there are some who will look around when hit - they clearly know they have been hit but must be checking for the shooter and it's only when they see him and more bb's inbound that they finally call their hit. Encouraging the reflex of hand in the air and strong call of "HIT" is definitely the way to go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭ Silent Death


    FRUoddy wrote: »
    I have noticed lately whilst videoing airsoft the difference in how some people take their hits.

    Hit taking is ALWAYS a thorny issue as so often bickering breaks out of non hit taking.

    My observation is that some guys take their hits properly. As they are Hit they put their hand or gun up and YELL, SCREAM or SHOUT that they have been hit. This way the guy who has shot them knows and moves onto their next target.

    But more often than not I have filmed guys who do none of the above. They get hit and they half put up their hand and just lay there or they mutter under their breath they are hit (when the guy who is shooting is a distance off they can't hear it) which leads to the guy doing the shooting 'over-killing' the target because he doesn't know he has hit his target. Or they half put their hand up and walk away.

    So please Airsofters make sure you yell out your hits and raise your hand or gun good and high. It will make for a better days gaming!

    All marshals should enforce this as a standard rule!
    Puding wrote: »


    A big one is that when I see people taking hits like you described it's a massive sign that there not enjoying themselves, normal happens if there is poor moral in the group or there is no chance of winning basically a complete loss of moral, it is some thing marshals need to be looking at , it could just be that person is having a bad day or it could be that there is a problem with the game dynamics or the team

    overkill, well it happens I've done it and I've been on the reviving end, I can easily happen if I fire at a person at mid range and hit them with the first round and they shout hit, by the time I react there is already more bb hitting that person and more in the air , this is not really an issue if mids are used a lot but where high caps are common and people using long burst and walk bb,s onto targets instead it can happen a lot

    the other end is players who like to do it, fortunately there few are far between but there out there, also where not hit taking is common overkill seems to sometimes become the accepted practice to try and combat the problem and it gets used all the time, " just in case" as one person once told me. Personal o see this as the wrong attitude


    Just my 2 cents on the subject based on my experience

    So true, im guilty of it several times. Its a pity. The other problem is BB's hitting maybe the rim of a hat, mag in your vest or the edge of your vest, you dont feel it and the other guy gets a) really pissed at you or b) opens right up. Thats the difference between paintball and airsoft. We use the honour system and regardless if you call your hits its not fool proof. Plenty of times ive been hit and there has been a delay between getting hit and calling it in which time in hit 6 or 7 more times. I have also generaly found that people who dont call there hits for the most part dont know there hit and then arguments follows that. Every game has its faults and this is our main one, C'est la vie.

    Thats my 2 cents on the matter ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 Puding


    have to agree there, the honour system works both ways as well on both partys

    yes there are some poeple who do not take there hits, but there are far far more times when yes those bb did not go thought the bush or it hit a pouch, if your wearing baggy cloths they may not feel anything, or my bb are falling short, if you running and being shot at you may not feel it or they will just miss, the person firing also has to have honor and give the person the benefit of the doubt

    the worst thing i see is when i hear players go, 'i've come across players that do not take there hits so im going to hose everyone' that just pisses everyone off instead of address the original issue

    depends a lot on how you see airsoft as well, to me it is not a competitive activity so for me if i do not hit some ( or they may not take the hit ) then o well its there loss in my eyes i will not lower myself to that level and just get on with the objective of the game


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭ Silent Death


    Puding wrote: »
    have to agree there, the honour system works both ways as well on both partys

    yes there are some poeple who do not take there hits, but there are far far more times when yes those bb did not go thought the bush or it hit a pouch, if your wearing baggy cloths they may not feel anything, or my bb are falling short, if you running and being shot at you may not feel it or they will just miss, the person firing also has to have honor and give the person the benefit of the doubt

    the worst thing i see is when i hear players go, 'i've come across players that do not take there hits so im going to hose everyone' that just pisses everyone off instead of address the original issue

    depends a lot on how you see airsoft as well, to me it is not a competitive activity so for me if i do not hit some ( or they may not take the hit ) then o well its there loss in my eyes i will not lower myself to that level and just get on with the objective of the game

    So true. Its our main flaw but its Airsoft and i wouldnt trade it for anything else. Generally the people are grand. My only beef is with thoses players and we have all seen them who are just plain bad tempered and ruin the atmosphere. If your new to the sport you have a reason to be slow calling the hits but every site ive been on the rules are well explained to everyone new and seasoned. Long Live Airsoft :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,765 ✭✭✭ Stercus Accidit


    I often just put the hand up and walk off, shouting hit can sometimes be a disadvantage to the attacker, it gives away a sneaky attack or hidden opponent who may have went to great effort to position himself behind enemy lines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,200 J.D.R


    I often just put the hand up and walk off, shouting hit can sometimes be a disadvantage to the attacker, it gives away a sneaky attack or hidden opponent who may have went to great effort to position himself behind enemy lines.

    Thats also why Overkill is sometimes used. I had a brilliant position one day, waited till the whole enemy team passed me by, and then shot nearly all of them. But only a couple of them called their hits, cause they thought the hits were richochets, or their own teammates, as they didn't think a member from my team could have gotten them.

    So, I was forced to use overkill instead of giving away my position by shouting at them to call their hits. They weren't happy at the end of the game (mostly cause they lost) but they definitely called ALL their hits in the next game.

    Overkill does have its advantages


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,304 ✭✭✭✭ Witcher


    I never have a problem with being hit by a few rounds that are already in the air as Puding said but when you get hit..shout hit..put your hand up...sling the gun and you're walking away then 10 seconds later some fcuker shoots you in the back while your hand is still up and your not threat to him..that's where I draw the line on it being a mistake or people thinking their being funny by getting the jump on ya and instead of 1/2 rounds they open up for about 5 seconds on ya from 20 feet.

    The worst overkill I've seen was a back in November, I was with 3 mates at a site, my friend the last guy,being flanked from two sides and the guy on the right shoots him..grand.. shouts hit..gets up from a prone position and the guy on the left, who knew he'd been hit..comes along unloads about 50 rounds into him as he's getting up, the guy was lying in a ball on the ground with us shouting at the lad he was hit..I mean what was the point of that?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭ Silent Death


    Yea had a similar experiance in HRTA before they moved. Was playing Rolling Assault and the defence had there last base and i was going to pull a runner under cover fire to a dirt mound. I was in a t-shirt cause of the heat and i make the run withut knowing that a guy with his new M60 was in the ditch to my left. He riddled me, i got about 10 in the face and had several bloody patches on my face and nose and my arms and legs were dotted with marks....... however he did say sorry after and we won :)

    Any hows on the point, fair enough if you have a position like that. It entirely depends on the situation you are in. M60 dude didnt have to lay it into me but he did, For preference, i double tap in close ranger and send about 4 at long range and then give them the benifit of the doubt, if they dont take there hits, tell them or call a marshall. I can understand wondering if your hit in the back by a hidden enemy, i would think it was blue on blue too. Marshall should clearly state that this senarion still results in a 'hit' if they dont ask them about it and then you know if its in play


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,913 T4RGET


    J.D.R wrote: »
    Thats also why Overkill is sometimes used. I had a brilliant position one day, waited till the whole enemy team passed me by, and then shot nearly all of them. But only a couple of them called their hits, cause they thought the hits were richochets, or their own teammates, as they didn't think a member from my team could have gotten them.

    So, I was forced to use overkill instead of giving away my position by shouting at them to call their hits. They weren't happy at the end of the game (mostly cause they lost) but they definitely called ALL their hits in the next game.

    Overkill does have its advantages

    richochets I can understand but blue on blue usually count so either way they should have called their hits....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,160 Inari


    Aren't you supposed to count ricochets as hits as well? I figured you're supposed to give benefit of the doubt in all regards. If you've been hit, or think you've been hit...then you have.

    Same for the opposite. If you think you've hit them, and they haven't called it, then you haven't hit them.

    Overkill - Benefit of the doubt again; assume it's accidental. Treat others as you wish to be treated, and everyone wishes to have benefit of the doubt, so give it in return


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,200 J.D.R


    Inari wrote: »
    Aren't you supposed to count ricochets as hits as well? I figured you're supposed to give benefit of the doubt in all regards. If you've been hit, or think you've been hit...then you have.

    I don't think yoiu count ricochets. It may be up to different people preferences, but the way I see it, real bullets don't really bounce off the walls, even if BB's do.

    Its like blind firing, you have to look at what happens in the real world (*not a great explaination but it's the best I can do*)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 Puding


    a lot of sites do not count ricochets , but it would come down to the site rules given in the start of game briefing/talk


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭ Silent Death


    J.D.R wrote: »
    I don't think yoiu count ricochets. It may be up to different people preferences, but the way I see it, real bullets don't really bounce off the walls, even if BB's do.

    Its like blind firing, you have to look at what happens in the real world (*not a great explaination but it's the best I can do*)
    ;)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,261 Puding


    that the most famous one i know off but yes bullets ricochet along with shrapnel and such

    but airsoft is a game so things are simplified a little ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 MerryDespot


    Yeah - it's not the nicest, but it can happen and if it happens and I don't think it was done with the simple intention of being a git (on the part of the shooter) then I generally don't have too much of an issue.

    I remember that in my first airsoft game (last year ... noob that I am) I was playing with some randomers against a team who took great delight in driving us back to the respawn point and then simply laying down sustained fire on the respawn so that whether you were hit or back in you were getting pelted from head to foot. This was not fun. But that's another gripe/story. Haven't come across the same team since then, which is nice.

    But if it's just that someone popped their head up, fired a burst then a second without realising that the first did it's job, that's grand.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 13,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭ thermo


    over kill and non hit taking happens, its part of the game, i like to believe its not intentional, the trick is to be vigilant in your self and report greviences with the marshalls


    or do what i do,,,,,,, just keep shooting them till they are un-consience. :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭ deco nate


    Inari wrote: »
    Aren't you supposed to count ricochets as hits as well? I figured you're supposed to give benefit of the doubt in all regards. If you've been hit, or think you've been hit...then you have.

    Same for the opposite. If you think you've hit them, and they haven't called it, then you haven't hit them.

    Overkill - Benefit of the doubt again; assume it's accidental. Treat others as you wish to be treated, and everyone wishes to have benefit of the doubt, so give it in return
    this was the i was told in my first game in red barn,if you are not sure,take the hit,you can always respawn.its just for fun.if you feel or hear something,play the game.
    the game makes the man,its not called an honour system for nothing,
    if you dont take your hits.."your some man,for one man"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 Airsoft Reloded


    ricochets don't count as a hit in any site to my knowledge, if its a ricichet you don't take it (you can't just go around saying "I thought that was a ricochet" though, most marshalls aren't that stupid).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭ Silent Death



    Most marshalls aren't that stupid.

    Well..........


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,340 ✭✭✭ deco nate


    ricochets don't count as a hit in any site to my knowledge, if its a ricichet you don't take it (you can't just go around saying "I thought that was a ricochet" though, most marshalls aren't that stupid).

    no,my point was if you are not sure,take it as a hit,and i
    always will,if im in doubt,an i know about a dj(rick o shea:D)
    they dont count i know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 Airsoft Reloded


    deco nate wrote: »
    no,my point was if you are not sure,take it as a hit,and i
    always will,if im in doubt,an i know about a dj(rick o shea:D)
    LOL
    deco nate wrote: »
    they dont count i know.

    Cool so


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,395 Decoy


    ricochets don't count as a hit in any site to my knowledge

    I played at a site not so long ago (there was lots of water) and was behind cover when a BB ricocheted off a nearby tree and hit me on the shoulder, I ignored it as I thought I should (there was no mention of ricochets during the briefing) but a marshall standing behind me told me to take the hit as ricochets counted!! Ricochets being allowed is an absolutely ridiculous rule, what's to stop players deliberately bouncing BBs off walls in a CQB environment?

    However as deco nate said, if you're in ANY doubt as to whether it was a ricochet or not take the hit!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 Airsoft Reloded


    I played at a site not so long ago (there was lots of water) and was behind cover when a BB ricocheted off a nearby tree and hit me on the shoulder, I ignored it as I thought I should (there was no mention of ricochets during the briefing) but a marshall standing behind me told me to take the hit as ricochets counted!! Ricochets being allowed is an absolutely ridiculous rule, what's to stop players deliberately bouncing BBs off walls in a CQB environment?

    Well thats just stupid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,086 ✭✭✭✭ TheDoc


    I often just put the hand up and walk off, shouting hit can sometimes be a disadvantage to the attacker, it gives away a sneaky attack or hidden opponent who may have went to great effort to position himself behind enemy lines.

    I do this pretty much all the time.

    The most annoying thing is that calling hit is pretty much used to give your positino away after a sneaky attack.

    A few recent games I've taken some close quarter pistol kills to have the victim screamin hit as he walks off. and you just know he wants to get attention to his team mates that their flank is open, and as an attacker, I just have to compeltely back track and re-asses.

    Its pretty annoying when you make the effort of crawling dozen of metres, get the drop on someone, then get your position given away. Thats why I'm trying to knife kill alot more, and even then you get people that still call hit : /

    I have the utmost respect for people who when you get the drop on them with a close quarter kill, they just get up and walk back, its the utmost in sportsmanship imo as its them showing respect that you got the drop on them, and knowing full wel lyou might take a whole flank, they are willing to let it happen to reward the work done to get there.

    Its all about education though, its a little grey area. But I guess in exact contrast to the OP, I wouldnt agree with shouting out hit, I think it detracts from realism, and as he said himself, it allows the shooter to move onto the next target, from just hearing a hit.

    Infact what should happen is the shooter keeping his eyes pealed to confirm the target is hit and removed from the game, whilst building anxiety to the fact there might be other targets moving around him.

    Its all a by product. If I'm hiding at the abck of a bush and getting riddled by a shooter, if I am hit should I walk around the bush and wave saying " got me" or should I just walk back to spawn, and leave the shooter wondering, in two minds, has he got the kill. I know as a player what I'd prefer, and its leaving me wondering did I get the kill, while out of the corner of my eye seeing a small advancement on the opposite flank, and making me take a decision.

    Keep my focus on that bush, and possibly concede some ground.

    Move my focus to the new advancement whilst leaving myself exposed should that bush shooter still be there.

    Like al lgames airsoft is about making decisions, sometimes in split seconds sometimes longer, but airsoft also has that glorious feat of creating panic, fear and anxiety from this decision making.

    We should encourage that, and not make things easier so that sense is lost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,304 ✭✭✭✭ Witcher


    TheDoc wrote: »
    I have the utmost respect for people who when you get the drop on them with a close quarter kill, they just get up and walk back, its the utmost in sportsmanship imo as its them showing respect that you got the drop on them, and knowing full wel lyou might take a whole flank, they are willing to let it happen to reward the work done to get there.

    +1, I've often got silent killed and just whispered "good kill" as I walk off, no point being spiteful and alerting your whole team because really if you as a group couldn't have the awareness to catch the guy before he got around behind you then you deserve to be killed.:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭ flashinbluelite


    TheDoc wrote: »
    I do this pretty much all the time.

    The most annoying thing is that calling hit is pretty much used to give your positino away after a sneaky attack.

    A few recent games I've taken some close quarter pistol kills to have the victim screamin hit as he walks off. and you just know he wants to get attention to his team mates that their flank is open, and as an attacker, I just have to compeltely back track and re-asses.

    Its pretty annoying when you make the effort of crawling dozen of metres, get the drop on someone, then get your position given away. Thats why I'm trying to knife kill alot more, and even then you get people that still call hit : /

    I have the utmost respect for people who when you get the drop on them with a close quarter kill, they just get up and walk back, its the utmost in sportsmanship imo as its them showing respect that you got the drop on them, and knowing full wel lyou might take a whole flank, they are willing to let it happen to reward the work done to get there.

    Its all about education though, its a little grey area. But I guess in exact contrast to the OP, I wouldnt agree with shouting out hit, I think it detracts from realism, and as he said himself, it allows the shooter to move onto the next target, from just hearing a hit.

    Infact what should happen is the shooter keeping his eyes pealed to confirm the target is hit and removed from the game, whilst building anxiety to the fact there might be other targets moving around him.

    Its all a by product. If I'm hiding at the abck of a bush and getting riddled by a shooter, if I am hit should I walk around the bush and wave saying " got me" or should I just walk back to spawn, and leave the shooter wondering, in two minds, has he got the kill. I know as a player what I'd prefer, and its leaving me wondering did I get the kill, while out of the corner of my eye seeing a small advancement on the opposite flank, and making me take a decision.

    Keep my focus on that bush, and possibly concede some ground.

    Move my focus to the new advancement whilst leaving myself exposed should that bush shooter still be there.

    Like al lgames airsoft is about making decisions, sometimes in split seconds sometimes longer, but airsoft also has that glorious feat of creating panic, fear and anxiety from this decision making.

    We should encourage that, and not make things easier so that sense is lost.

    why are my eyes bleeding? oh yeah i just read an airsoft Novel ......
    TheDoc wrote: »
    We should encourage that, and not make things easier so that sense is lost.
    wise words...remember them always


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,086 ✭✭✭✭ TheDoc


    If I wrote a book on airsoft and my thoughts about it the Vaticans scribes would take multiple strokes and hemerages ....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 MerryDespot


    TheDoc wrote: »
    Its pretty annoying when you make the effort of crawling dozen of metres, get the drop on someone, then get your position given away. Thats why I'm trying to knife kill alot more, and even then you get people that still call hit : /

    Very good point Doc - what's the point in doing all the graft if you don't get to benefit from it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭ Silent Death


    TheDoc wrote: »

    Its pretty annoying when you make the effort of crawling dozen of metres, get the drop on someone, then get your position given away. Thats why I'm trying to knife kill alot more, and even then you get people that still call hit : /

    I have the utmost respect for people who when you get the drop on them with a close quarter kill, they just get up and walk back, its the utmost in sportsmanship imo as its them showing respect that you got the drop on them, and knowing full wel lyou might take a whole flank, they are willing to let it happen to reward the work done to get there.

    Its all about education though, its a little grey area. But I guess in exact contrast to the OP, I wouldnt agree with shouting out hit, I think it detracts from realism, and as he said himself, it allows the shooter to move onto the next target, from just hearing a hit.
    Blay wrote: »
    +1, I've often got silent killed and just whispered "good kill" as I walk off, no point being spiteful and alerting your whole team because really if you as a group couldn't have the awareness to catch the guy before he got around behind you then you deserve to be killed.:)


    So true, if i can i knife kill with my bayonet. Generally i hear after i move off to the next is 'Dam, is knife kills allowed?' or ' well done'. Generally i knife kill and go shhhhh, so far no troubles. With CQB kills, yea really annoying. However the worst part is you have a lovely position, you make the kill and either a) dead man talks and tells his buddies where you are or b) comes back and takes you out. At every kill i relocate, not far but somewhere new


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