Israeli Secret Service asked to inspect Irish passport production facility

gandalf

anymore wrote: »

What crime - killing a terrorist ?

Lets list them.

Creating Forged Irish Passports.

Using the forged passports to gain entry to another country.

Murdering someone in a hotel room.

Several Crimes for the price of one.

Did I miss any?

nacho libre

anymore wrote: »

What crime - killing a terrorist ?

would you be posing this same question if the Lebanese or Iranian intelligence services had killed a senior figure in a terrorist organisation, in another country, while using Irish passports as part of the operation?

OhNoYouDidn't

anymore wrote: »

Let me ask a question(s) ;

1. how many people are subject to rigorous scrutiny at irish airports because of the danger they might be israeli terrorists plotting to blow up the plane ?
2. How many of us are subject to rigorous scrutiny at Irish Airports becasue of the danger we might be Islamic terrorists plotting to blow up the plane ?

Answer to one is zero
Answer to two is all of us
So which should we be most concerned about: passports or terrorism ?

A complete strawman.

anymore

nacho libre wrote: »

would you be posing this same question if the Lebanese or Iranian intelligence services had killed a senior figure in a terrorist organisation, in another country, while using Irish passports as part of the operation?

It would probably raise the same level of interest as in this case - as i say israel has not caused me to be treated like an Islamic terorist everytime i pass through an airport, anywhere in the world.
I am sure israel is not the only country which uses irish passports - Phoenix magazine has previousuly outlined how relatively easy Irish passports are to forge and how thje Gov has ignored this.
Indeed i am sure that there a few intellignce agencies have people who legitimately can clim irish passportd because of ancestry provisions - whoi knows what they do with them ?

OhNoYouDidn't

anymore wrote: »

It would probably raise the same level of interest as in this case - as i say israel has not caused me to be treated like an Islamic terorist everytime i pass through an airport, anywhere in the world.
I am sure israel is not the only country which uses irish passports - Phoenix magazine has previousuly outlined how relatively easy Irish passports are to forge and how thje Gov has ignored this.
Indeed i am sure that there a few intellignce agencies have people who legitimately can clim irish passportd because of ancestry provisions - whoi knows what they do with them ?

So what? What happened here was still wrong, and Britain, Australia and France have all reacted. So should we.

anymore

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

A complete strawman.

I dont think the increasing hassle going through airports and the punitive prohibitions are strawmen - do you ?

gandalf

anymore wrote: »

Indeed i am sure that there a few intellignce agencies have people who legitimately can clim irish passportd because of ancestry provisions - whoi knows what they do with them ?

That may be true but we know what Israelis did with those passports.

They used them in a assassination operation in another state masquarading as citizens of Ireland and several other countries.

Israel is supposed to be a country that we have good diplomatic relations with and this kind of activity is one I would expect of a rogue state like North Korea with no standing in the International Community.

No matter what way you spin it my friend the actions were wrong and disrespectful of Ireland and its citizens.

OhNoYouDidn't

anymore wrote: »

I dont think the increasing hassle going through airports and the punitive prohibitions are strawmen - do you ?

No, but they are entirely irrelevant to whether the State should react diplomatically to the incident.

nacho libre

anymore wrote: »

It would probably raise the same level of interest as in this case - as i say israel has not caused me to be treated like an Islamic terorist everytime i pass through an airport, anywhere in the world.
I am sure israel is not the only country which uses irish passports - Phoenix magazine has previousuly outlined how relatively easy Irish passports are to forge and how thje Gov has ignored this.
Indeed i am sure that there a few intellignce agencies have people who legitimately can clim irish passportd because of ancestry provisions - whoi knows what they do with them ?

so you really don't see a problem with it regardless of which country is doing it. well at least you are being consistent.

i have to laugh at the bare faced cheek of mossad to want to look at the facility in Balbriggan. they'll never be cowered, because if we remember back to the mossad plot to kill two of the palestinians from the siege of the nativity, which was foiled, they gave assurances to the Irish state that they'd behave from them on. so the only lesson they'll take from this current situation, is to be even more efficient in future so as to avoid unwanted scrutiny.

anymore

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So what? What happened here was still wrong, and Britain, Australia and France have all reacted. So should we.

Yes they have all reacted by welcoming Israel with open arms into the OECD ! Did you not see the thread ?
The UK has provided arms and training to some of the vilest regimes in the world. France delibrately stood by and allowed the denocide in Rwanda to proceed. The UN withdrew UN troops in the full knowledge that the people they were protecting would be slaughtered !
Do you think the public fuss they made over this incident was for any reason other than PR ?
Israel is an ally of the West.

gandalf

anymore wrote: »

Yes they have all reacted by opening Israel with open arms into the OECD ! Did you not see the thread ?
The UK has provided arms and training to some of the vilest regimes in the world. France delibrately stood by and allowed the denocide in Rwanda to proceed. The UN withdrew UN troops in the full knowledge that the people they were protecting would be slaughtered !
Do you think the public fuss they made over this incident was for any reason other than PR ?

What have these got to do with the topic in hand.

Do you agree that it was wrong for Israel to forge Irish passports yes or no?

Do you agree that it was wrong for Israelis to use forged Irish Passports to gain entrance to another country yes or no?

Do you agree that it was wrong for these people to carry out a murder while pretending to be Irish and citizens from other countries, yes or no?

Everything else you have above is deflecting from the question.

anymore

nacho libre wrote: »

so you really don't see a problem with it regardless of which country is doing it. well at least you are being consistent.

i have to laugh at the bare faced cheek of mossad to want to look at the facility in Balbriggan. they'll never be cowered, because if we remember back to the mossad plot, to kill two of the palestinians from the siege of the nativity, which was foiled, they gave assurances to the Irish state that they'd behave from them on. so the only lesson they'll take from this current situastion, is to be even more efficient in future so as to avoid unwanted scrutiny.

Dont blame Mossaad because ireland is Governed by idiots !

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Dont blame Mossaad because ireland is Governed by idiots !

Why don't you answer the questions put to you above?

anymore

deadtiger wrote: »

What have these got to do with the topic in hand.

Do you agree that it was wrong for Israel to forge Irish passports yes or no?

Do you agree that it was wrong for Israelis to use forged Irish Passports to gain entrance to another country yes or no?

Do you agree that it was wrong for these people to carry out a murder while pretending to be Irish and citizens from other countries, yes or no?

Everything else you have above is deflecting from the question.

Yes Israel was very naughty to use irish passports in the same as UK intelligence and CIA etc use them !:eek:
However unlike her Majesty's Secret Service, Israel has not as far as I am aware colluded in terrorist attacks in the Republic, it has not colluded with Loyalist terrorist organiastaions to assist them to assassinate irish passport holders.
It is a matter of perspective.

alastair

anymore wrote: »

Israel is an ally of the West.

Allied against whom exactly?

It's worth pointing out that Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, etc are all allies of the west, or have been in recent history. Syria was a western ally in GW1, and looks like being back in US favour, now that Iran is once again the prime designated enemy. Israel isn't any sort of ally in this whole passport affair - undermining the accreditation of other nation's citizens to commit murder is just inexcusable.

gandalf

anymore wrote: »

Yes Israel was very naughty to use irish passports in the same as UK intelligence and CIA etc use them !:eek:
However unlike her Majesty's Secret Service, Israel has not as far as I am aware colluded in terrorist attacks in the Republic, it has not colluded with Loyalist terrorist organiastaions to assist them to assassinate irish passport holders.
It is a matter of perspective.

Again not answering the questions just deflecting.

I never asked about the CIA, UK intelligence, Loyalists, or any other organisation you care to throw into the mix.

I asked you direct questions on whether it was right for Israel to use forged Irish Passports in a different country to murder someone. All I can do is judge from your unwillingness to respond properly is you do realise that it was wrong but it doesn't suit your position or purposes to concede this.

anymore

alastair wrote: »

Allied against whom exactly?

It's worth pointing out that Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, etc are all allies of the west, or have been in recent history. Syria was a western ally in GW1, and looks like being back in US favour, now that Iran is once again the prime designated enemy. Israel isn't any sort of ally in this whole passport affair - undermining the accreditation of other nation's citizens to commit murder is just inexcusable.

Are or have been ?
What does that mean - ?
Germany is and/or was an ally of other european countries but that didnt stop her march off to invade and starting two world wars, did it ?

anymore

deadtiger wrote: »

Again not answering the questions just deflecting.

I never asked about the CIA, UK intelligence, Loyalists, or any other organisation you care to throw into the mix.

I asked you direct questions on whether it was right for Israel to use forged Irish Passports in a different country to murder someone. All I can do is judge from your unwillingness to respond properly is you do realise that it was wrong but it doesn't suit your position or purposes to concede this.

pardon me ! I am not saying that isnt wrong; I am putting it into perspective.
Has Mossad done more damage to Irelands reputation that the honourable Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness ?

wes

So the Australians have expelled a diplomat as well. I think we need follow suit asap. What Israel did, needs a response.

gandalf

anymore wrote: »

pardon me ! I am not saying that isnt wrong; I am putting it into perspective.
Has Mossad done more damage to Irelands reputation that the honourable Gerry Adams or Martin McGuinness ?

Again deflection.

What Mossad has done along with Israel is devalue the integrity of Irish Passports in countries that we as an international entity have good relationships.

Yes Ireland has sold passports to individuals in the past but least we know who they are. We did not however give Israel carte blanch permission to duplicate our legal documents to carry out whatever grubby illegal operations they feel they need to carry out across the world.

No amount of feeble attempts from you deflect from this fact.

(btw nice Godwinism in that response to alastair)

anymore

deadtiger wrote: »

Again deflection.

What Mossad has done along with Israel is devalue the integrity of Irish Passports in countries that we as an international entity have good relationships.

Yes Ireland has sold passports to individuals in the past but least we know who they are. We did not however give Israel carte blanch permission to duplicate our legal documents to carry out whatever grubby illegal operations they feel they need to carry out across the world.

No amount of feeble attempts from you deflect from this fact.

(btw nice Godwinism in that response to alastair)

D.id you know ireland was a major supplier of beef to Saddam's army - you the army that gassed over 5,000 Iraqis ? Of course we used to be a major supplier to Libya as well, if my memory is right.
What has that got to do with this ?
Well Ireland's reputation isnt as squeaky clean and ethical as irish people like to think - there isnt a despotic regime in the ME we wouldnt supply !
Selling beef to Saddam, providing Shannon as a transit point for US army and CIA - seems like we win every way doesnt it ?

OH lets all get morally outraged that Israel misued our passports - it might hurt OUR REPUTATION

gandalf

So what you are saying is International Laws and International Travel documents can be violated if it suits Israels needs?

That is what you are saying isn't it?

anymore

deadtiger wrote: »

So what you are saying is International Laws and International Travel documents can be violated if it suits Israels needs?

That is what you are saying isn't it?

Well at this stage lets some comment from some Sinn fein Reps - i understand Various Sinn Fein people made a lot of comments in the case of some irish people who apparently may have travelled to Columbia using irish passports that may not have been their own. We can compare the separate cases and see if there are any lessons to be learned !

gandalf

Oh apparently Israel doesn't like when their passports are used fraudelently either.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3219704,00.html

I particularly love this feedback from this lad in nashville on that article.

This should be considered as a case of treason and spying. International law should allow those caught to be brought to Israel for trial and execution.
jf , nashville (02.22.06)

anymore

anymore wrote: »

Well at this stage lets some comment from some Sinn fein Reps - i understand Various Sinn Fein people made a lot of comments in the case of some irish people who apparently may have travelled to Columbia using irish passports that may not have been their own. We can compare the separate cases and see if there are any lessons to be learned !

Hmm! somebody has said to me that there was some talk of a Sinn Fein envoy to Cuba and a question about irish passports - anybody know anything ?

gandalf

anymore wrote: »

Well at this stage lets some comment from some Sinn fein Reps - i understand Various Sinn Fein people made a lot of comments in the case of some irish people who apparently may have travelled to Columbia using irish passports that may not have been their own. We can compare the separate cases and see if there are any lessons to be learned !

So no chance of you answering any questions directly then. I'll disengage from interaction any further here. I think I have shown that you believe that Israel's selective attitude to International Law is justified.

alastair

anymore wrote: »

Are or have been ?
What does that mean - ?
Germany is and/or was an ally of other european countries but that didnt stop her march off to invade and starting two world wars, did it ?

1. It means currently, or recently (in the case of Syria - who were allied to the west in GW1, and are now once again becoming an ally in diplomatic pressure on Iran) - not that cryptic really.

2. There's a material difference in contemporary or recent alliances and the 1930's. Unless your 'point' is that alliances can shift, in which case why mention that Israel is an ally of the west in the first place?

Your refusal to engage with the elephant in the room, and obfuscation, are pretty telling as to any reasonable defence of Israel's actions. The red herring of vunerable Irish passports is also a joke - they're as secure as any other EU passport - the Israeli security services forged old passports, not current ones, and unless you force all valid, but pre-'05 passports out of circulation, there's no means of stopping forgeries. The same is exactly true of US passports btw - except that the Israelis know better than to wind up their paymasters.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Are or (.....)world wars, did it ?

Evasion. Thats about 8 in 8 posts.

Mr.Micro

deadtiger wrote: »

So no chance of you answering any questions directly then. I'll disengage from interaction any further here. I think I have shown that you believe that Israel's selective attitude to International Law is justified.

That is about the sum of it. Israel appears to do as it likes and all logic, Laws, Passports, killings do not apply when it suits Israel. So it is impossible to argue when most other countries are bound by the rules...... like children playing football and some do not play by the rules or change them to suit.

Archie D Bunker

Just out of curiosity, before we hunt down and deport all those despicable Israelis - maybe someone can remind me what evidence was ever shown that proves Israel was the culprit responsible for the Dubai killing?