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N25 - Dungarvan Outer Bypass

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10 Wizard72


    Hi Bards -

    Just wanted to give you a snap shot of what inspiring engineering & quality project work Tramore House Road Design Office can come up with when it comes to road planning & development.
    This latest installment in the 'Rathbride Abbey Rat Run is their handy-work & now they have the cheek to try & endorse it by demanding completion of a Part 8.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 68,015 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Why are THRDO involved in anything in Kildare seeing as Kildare has its own, much larger RDO??


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭nordydan


    Wizard72 wrote: »
    Hi Bards -

    Just wanted to give you a snap shot of what inspiring engineering & quality project work Tramore House Road Design Office can come up with when it comes to road planning & development.
    This latest installment in the 'Rathbride Abbey Rat Run is their handy-work & now they have the cheek to try & endorse it by demanding completion of a Part 8.

    What the hell are you talking about?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,732 ✭✭✭Bards


    Wizard72 wrote: »
    Hi Bards -

    Just wanted to give you a snap shot of what inspiring engineering & quality project work Tramore House Road Design Office can come up with when it comes to road planning & development.
    This latest installment in the 'Rathbride Abbey Rat Run is their handy-work & now they have the cheek to try & endorse it by demanding completion of a Part 8.

    why not start a New Thread there's no keyboard tax yet!!- that would be the most courteous thing to do, instead of hijacking another legitimate thread?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Bards wrote: »
    why not start a New Thread there's no keyboard tax yet!!- that would be the most courteous thing to do, instead of hijacking another legitimate thread?

    Although the Rathbride case smells of NIMBYism, I agree that this isn't the thread for discussing same!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32 Rathbride Ranger


    Although the Rathbride case smells of NIMBYism, I agree that this isn't the thread for discussing same!

    This is your back yard you clown, your irish and proud after all, is Kildare not in your backyard big guy or are you to cosmopolitan to know where Kildare is? Are you proud of the way councils force through decisions and railroad residents oh and fence them in too, you should change your name to Irish and stupid!

    Anyone that trots out the line NIMBYism is a classic example of a coward, a coward that will mouth off, do you know what I call that Irish and Stupid,

    BOBOOR, did you every hear that before Irish and Stupid? Thats the Bravery Of Being Out Of Range.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    This is your back yard you clown, your irish and proud after all, is Kildare not in your backyard big guy or are you to cosmopolitan to know where Kildare is? Are you proud of the way councils force through decisions and railroad residents oh and fence them in too, you should change your name to Irish and stupid!

    Anyone that trots out the line NIMBYism is a classic example of a coward, a coward that will mouth off, do you know what I call that Irish and Stupid,

    BOBOOR, did you every hear that before Irish and Stupid? Thats the Bravery Of Being Out Of Range.

    This forum doesn't seem to be for you. Banned for two months while you give our charter a good read.

    Now, I would ask that people don't bump threads unless they have something relevant to post. It annoys other users and can get people's hopes up that there's news about a scheme, when in fact there isn't.

    Please start a new thread to discuss new topics.

    Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Supernintento Chalmers


    11 years later…

    Has this project ever been revisited?

    Since the Greenway took off the need for an outer bypass is significantly greater, what with such an increase in traffic levels, particularly during the Summer.

    A lot of the route seems to have been started a long time ago, then abandoned. Were all the CPOs etc. completed?

    I’m not sure but there is at least a significant of road marked out along what seems to to be one of the proposed routes.

    Like so…




  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Imeacht gan teacht ort




  • Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Supernintento Chalmers


    Along there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    That does join up to the preferred route. Might have been a planned site or quarry access road, but might also just be a co-incidence.




  • Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Supernintento Chalmers


    Ah. I see. Thanks.

    But as to my question, I wondered if anyone had heard anything to suggest that this project might restart?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I wish.. but it’s not on any list I've seen published. I think the very high cost would be against this project, and it could end up being the last N25 work to be completeted. Castlemartyr and Killeagh would be a lot cheaper.



  • Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭Supernintento Chalmers


    It’s a disgrace Castlemartyr is still the way it is, it’s a nightmare.

    Killeagh isn’t too bad but yeah, probably an easy enough win.

    It’s a pity there isn’t a decent road where I’ve marked, you’d then have an outer bypass, though that section of N72 is very narrow, with no shoulders.




  • Registered Users Posts: 38 Imeacht gan teacht ort


    They could build that new bit you have drawn out, and upgrade that narrow bit of N72 so the new road could subsume it and multiplex with the N72.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    We do not multiplex national routes in Ireland - with the exception of routes that traverse Northern Ireland, every N road has exactly one start and one end point.

    But that proposal completely misses the point of this project (and you've left two roundabouts in).

    It might be called the “Dungarvan Outer Bypass”, but the most important piece of road to be bypassed is the bit you’ve left alone, to the East of Dungarvan:

    Every red dot is a dangerous junction. I drive this road a lot, and I’ve seen a crash at every one of those points over the years. It's a really nasty bit of road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    That wouldn’t bypass the Pike section of road which is truly awful at the moment.

    It also wouldn’t bypass the Sweep to the south of the town which has some bad turns and a very steep gradient.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Unfortunately, any Dungarvan bypass (which I'd really love to see) would basically have to go from the top of the hill west of Dungarvan all the way to the eastern side of Lemybrien. That would remove all of the bad road and would connect with the Kilmacthomas bypass too. Anything less would just leave a bit of awful road inbetween.

    It's going to be eye wateringly expensive for the amount of traffic that'll use it, and thats the big problem. It's needed, but the cost.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Well, the proposed scheme runs from the top of the hill west of Dungarvan to the western side of Lemybrien - it's the long pink line on the map I posted above (this post: N25 - Dungarvan Outer Bypass - Page 2 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin').

    Lemybrien is not an issue: there is never congestion there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Gunner3629


    If this gets started before Castlemarytr on the N25 then some heads need to roll.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Oh yes, Lemybrien never suffers from any problems, but if they're building a long section of new road under the idea of a strategic route, then leaving Lemybrien in place is just silly. You'll have (likely) 2+2 ending just west of Lemybrien, coming into the 2+1 section looking at the map, going through Lemybrien, then into an oldskool WS2 towards Waterford. It'd be a bit silly.


    And yes, this should be after Castlemartyr/Killeagh of course. But it should be higher up on the priority list than it is. The million roundabouts in Dungarvan notwithstanding, the 60kmh hairpins going up the Pike on the main shipping route from Cork to Rosslare Port is just awful thesedays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The problem with that thinking is that you keep adding bits on until the works quickly become so big that they’ll never get started. With a limited budget, you have to pick your fights, and that means focusing on safety first.

    There are genuinely dangerous stretches of road elsewhere in the country that should be addressed before we look at capacity and convenience on a road like N25, where honestly there are no real issues apart from this one section at the Pike and the eastern approach to the Youghal bypass at Kinsalebeg. The rest of the road in Co Waterford is running well within the capacity, and it's safe (although I would do something about McGrath’s cross, the junction for Mahon Bridge east of Lemybrien, which is catches a lot of people out when heading east; perhaps making both it and the Stradbally exits left-only would improve things..)

    The other urgent works are to get the traffic jams out of Castlemartyr’s main street, and doing that would solve the problems in Killeagh. The main justification for that will be quality of life for the residents of Castlemartyr itself - no road project will ever get funded on the basis of making car commuting easier: Greens or no greens, there’s a growing understanding that you can’t road-build your way out of traffic congestion, and the only thing that will work is diversion of commuters to other modes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    N25 priorities:

    1. Castlemartyr bypass.
    2. Killeagh Bypass. Top 2 encompassing 2+2 from Midleton to Youghsl.
    3. Dungarvan bypass.
    4. Youghal to Dungarvan including new bridge over Blsckwater (expensive scheme)
    5. Dualling Leambrien to Kilmeaden
    6. HQDC upgrade for Carrigtowhill to Midleton.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Mostly agree with that ordering but some of the works are a little too big. #4 doesn't need to reach Dungarvan, just join witht he previous improvements at Kinsalebeg. Beyond here all the way to Dungarvan is an extremely quiet section, and the existing road is absolutely fine.

    But around there on your list, at #3.5 or #4.5, should be a scheme to upgrade the 12 km stretch from the eastern end of the Kilmacthomas Bypass to the western end of the Waterford Bypass - the terrain is difficult in parts (which is why it was excluded from the Waterford Bypass) so it could be very expensive, but it's a busy road (busier than Kinsalebeg) with a potentially dangerous crossings.

    The existing Kilmacthomas Bypass does not need dualling, and I'd drop it to last and promote Carrigtwohill, if only to fix that lethal left-in-left-out at Oatencake.

    (There's also a small stretch of N25 just before it meets the proposed N11/N25 Rosslare scheme that should be addressed, but that might be fixed by an extended link road)



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I'd agree with that ordering as well but I'd amend #2 to specifically include a fix for the Midleton roundabout.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Current actual TII priority list is: 6, 1/2, 3/5, and 4 is not on the table whatsoever.

    We'll get a closer glimpse into the priority order in late December when the allocations for 2023. It'll tell us more about plans for the N25 in east Cork. The Waterford sections remain off the table for the moment.

    How long this will take is another question. For as long as you have Government believing that improved roads on a low population, low density, highly rural island is some sort of demonic evil act, we will remain in the transport improvement quicksand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep I don't understand how #6 is considered such a high priority by TII other than to open up lands East of Carrigtohill for development. Which I actually am in favour of, just don't see it as a "roads" scheme, rather a large-scale combined infrastructure scheme: N roads/L roads, rail stations and cycle corridor all need to happen roughly simultaneously.

    But the most glaringly obvious N25 issues are definitely Castlemartyr, Lakeview and Killeagh as far as I'm concerned. And then you have the Pike and the Youghal-Kinsalebeg sections.

    Dungarvan might be slow at times, but I wouldn't say it's extremely dangerous or failing to function. It should definitely be on the list though.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII are quite keen on removing old legacy stretches of DCs though. This must be one of the few stretches with right turns across the median left in the country. They are heavily invested in a similar stretch of DC between Letterkenny and Manorcunningham on the N13. I would also bet heavily on this being a priority for Cork County Council to open up development lands. Between the Amgen site and Water Rock this route really does need to be improved to serve those lands.

    A sensible option would be to launch a catchall 27km scheme between the Barryscourt Interchange on the N25 and the merge at the western end of the Youghal bypass rather than the ad hoc approach at present. Use it to address the legacy issues with the DC west of Midleton, Lakeview, Killeagh, Castlemartyr and other issues such as the blackspot at Burgess.

    Dungarvan should be bypassed by a decent 2+2 from the Pike to near the Seanchai bar so that traffic not going to Dungarvan can completely avoid the descent and ascent that Dungarvan requires. Ireland's approach to transport development does not welcome such a project unfortunately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The now-mothballed build was to be 2+2 exactly between the points you mention, with an intermediate junction for N72 and Dungarvan, probably using R672 as that access route.

    I agree with the need to remediate low-quality DCs. There aren’t many left, and now that most of the country’s divided roads are now of a very high quality, with zero median crossings, the ones that are not have become more dangerous. Drivers now expect an unbroken median when they join a dual-carriageway, and this part of N25 dangerously messes with that expectation. Also, that Midleton junction westbound has a lethally short slip-road for merging traffic, causing through-traffic to jump lanes at short notice, which further increases the chances of an accident.

    But lumping the this improvement jobs in with the Castlemartyr-Youghal one gives a scheme that is very big in terms of cost, and that might reduce the competition when it came to tendering. It would be better to design and plan it all in one go, then divvy it up as separate projects, but planning could be nasty on Castlemartyr-Youghal.



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