summoned for uninsudred driving

marc.

hello,
I was stopped in April and asked to produce an insurance, which I didn't have at the moment. I was on my way to get both insurance and tax, I explained that to the guard that stopped me. I got fined e60 for not having tax, and I assumed that was it. Last week I received a summons for not having insurance. I know it's serious, and won't argue over that. By the end of the very day I had both tax and insurance.
It was tough time for me (still is, my first baby and a lot of health related problems with him), and I don't have better excuse and don't want to lie - previous insurance ended in January, since then I changed cars.
Can you please advise me what would be the best approach to take in this situation?
And please, we are two people without jobs, with 4mth old baby that require special attention, so try not to be too hard on me.
What I would like to know is that is there any way not to get driving ban imposed, but rather just the fine?

MagicSean

Yes. Get a solicitor. It'll be a big fine though.

ms. Liza

yea a solicitor would be your best bet. maybe if you spoke to the superintendent in the garda station he might help you...

Shield

marc. wrote: »

What I would like to know is that is there any way not to get driving ban imposed, but rather just the fine?

You need a solicitor.

challengemaster

You do know it's possible to get insurance without leaving your house? Internet/phone? A baby is not an excuse for not having insurance. No excuse for it really. Get a solicitor but you deserve whatever you get.

Midnight_EG

How about just turn up to court in your best suit, make sure you have a positive head on ye, then explain your situation to the Judge, including the fact that you had attained insurance that very day. You might get away with just a fine.

Berty

What's that? You have a baby.

Stop the press. On you go without your tax and insurance. Seriously who would have thought a mother with a baby would need tax and insurance?

"Im on my way to get it Garda". Im surprised he didn't believe you. Its not as though he hears this every other day. :rolleyes:

I doubt you will get any pity in the courts. Get a good counsel and some vaseline.

amiable

For something like this i don't know why you are posting it and not just getting a solicitor who can advice you correctly.
There's practically no excuse for driving with no insurance.
Sure if we all drove around with none and just told the gardai i'm just on the way to get it if stopped the country would be in a bigger mess than it already is.
Seems like you only want to hear good news and not bad news.

WIZE

Bring all your Tax and insurance papers to a solicitor.

JCJCJC

You haven't got great prospects - if the garda makes out the case properly, a driving ban for two years is looming for you, and you'll have a conviction on your record which will make insurance more expensive in the future because you'll be loaded. You could get the time off the road reduced on appeal maybe but that costs money that your circumstances suggest might not be available to you - maybe 1-2k for the appeal because you need a barrister in the Circuit Court.
Still, strange things do occasionally happen. Go and see a good solicitor who is doing road traffic work every day. Go along now to your local district court and watch them in action - see who is rising to all the garda prosecutions, and see who is going down well with your local judge and not regularly antagonising him/her. Everybody is human, even lawyers.
The only thing I can think of for you, barring a significant procedural error on the prosecution side, is to get a newly-qualified solicitor - there is a legal tradition that they are always allowed win their first case. It's an abuse, but if you can find one, go for it. Sometimes the garda isn't in court, if so, and you are, the case can be struck out.
When your case comes up in court, have your partner and baby in court and have them simply stand up when the case is called. Scurrilous tactics but it might work. I'm assuming you were caught in your own locale - the case will come up in whatever court area you were stopped.

Buy a pair of trainers, unfortunately you're probably going to be walking everywhere for a while :rolleyes:

MagicMarker

Yep, get a solicitor and be all teary eyed on the day. You probably will be banned though, and rightly so tbh, it's hard to feel sorry for you.

Berty

MYOB wrote: »

I don't see how you can claim there is any position in this case that thats suitable for. Driving without insurance is EXTREMELY stupid and EXTREMELY illegal.

Exactly. Well done "Most Haunted".

If the OP crash's into you, mangles your car and puts you in a wheelchair and says "Oh sorry, I was just on my way to buy Insurance but please go easy on me as Im unemployed and have a young child". You would have them arrested and charged.

No high horses here Im afraid!

Cookie_Monster

May have had some sympathy if had no insurance for a day or so but 3 months, FFS that is just taking the piss regardless of any other factor.

CoDy1

So you were driving from Jan to April uninsured, but you were on your way to get it the day you were stopped. Good one. If you hadn't been stopped you would have kept on driving uninsured.

As Berty said, you need a solicitor and vaseline. Your circumstances don't play a part in this.

TheNog

JCJCJC wrote: »

When your case comes up in court, have your partner and baby in court

Children are not allowed in court.

Minstrel27

Three months without insurance? Of course you were on your way to get them. I hope you are put off the road.

JCJCJC

Folks, go easy. The OP only asked for advice. If he'she is an axe-murderer or a bad poitin maker, it doesn't matter - everyone is entitled to ask for advice, to be represented by a lawyer and to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law. There are people walking freely about the streets who have done far greater wrongs to our society. Leave the judging to the judge. If you can't offer constructive advice you're not answering the question that was asked. If the OP wants opinion I'm sure he'she will ask for opinion.

OP - go find that solicitor and good luck with it.

JC

JCJCJC

TheNog wrote: »

Children are not allowed in court.

Im sorry ? - I've been working in courts for over thirty years and I've seen children in court innumerable times, including babies-in-arms. Can you post a url to a statutory provision that says that, I would be very interested.

If you were bringing a personal injuries action on behalf of a child who for example suffered significant and disfiguring facial scarring due to the negligence of another party and you wanted damages on that ground, how would you propose showing the evidence to the court?

At law, a child is a person under 18 who is or has not been married as I understand it. Can none of those attend court even if only as a member of the general public in the gallery, in exercise of the constitutional provision that justice be done in public?

JC

WIZE

The OP is looking for Advise on a situation that they are in . Most of you are no providing information to the OP . The OP understands what they did weas wrong and corrected it .They do not need to be reminded of it

Berty

Most Haunted wrote: »

The OP is looking for Advise on a situation that they are in . Most of you are no providing information to the OP . The OP understands what they did weas wrong and corrected it .They do not need to be reminded of it

Most of us are not in a position to give legal advice to the OP.

Also I don't think the OP is aware of the ramifications of what they were doing driving without Insurance. Correcting the Insurance and tax issue when you get caught is not learning anything and juding by what they said last I doubt they even believe it themselves.

marc. wrote:

What I would like to know is that is there any way not to get driving ban imposed, but rather just the fine?

"Now Im caught Im looking to reduce the impact of my actions."

Good luck with that.

star.chaser

marc. wrote: »

hello,
I was stopped in April and asked to produce an insurance, which I didn't have at the moment. I was on my way to get both insurance and tax, I explained that to the guard that stopped me. I got fined e60 for not having tax, and I assumed that was it. Last week I received a summons for not having insurance. I know it's serious, and won't argue over that. By the end of the very day I had both tax and insurance.
It was tough time for me (still is, my first baby and a lot of health related problems with him), and I don't have better excuse and don't want to lie - previous insurance ended in January, since then I changed cars.
Can you please advise me what would be the best approach to take in this situation?
And please, we are two people without jobs, with 4mth old baby that require special attention, so try not to be too hard on me.
What I would like to know is that is there any way not to get driving ban imposed, but rather just the fine?

Reminds me of the time i came to a Garda checkpoint at 12 midnight on the north strand with no tax, insurance, NCT or license. They didn't stop me but if they did i was gonna tell them i was actually on my way to get all four.

Barname

en route to buy Insurance and Tax your car you were stopped?

Here is some advice; dont try that one on the Judge.

Vertakill

While I completely agree with most people here who are saying the OP was just taking the mick by driving around uninsured and using the baby excuse (although I do feel sorry for your circumstances), people need to step back a bit here.

The OP knows they were stupid and probably knows deep down that none of us are going to believe that after 3 months the only time they were caught was the very day they were travelling in to get their insurance/tax.

So there's no need to go all high and mighty and start lecturing the OP. That's what the judge will do when he/she hands out their verdict in court.

They've been caught, they're going to court... the system is working for once. Relax.

WIZE

Berty wrote: »

Most of us are not in a position to give legal advice to the OP.

Also I don't think the OP is aware of the ramifications of what they were doing driving without Insurance. Correcting the Insurance and tax issue when you get caught is not learning anything and juding by what they said last I doubt they even believe it themselves.



"Now Im caught Im looking to reduce the impact of my actions."

Good luck with that.

I agree the OP was stupid driving without T&I but they got caught and im happy .

But the only advise that can be given to the OP is go see your solicitor


If the op came on here saying ive been driving around with no T&I will I get Caught ? then hang him but thats not why they are here to get slaughtered before a court case

Lex Luthor

I think if you missed your insurance by a few days you might have been ok but 3 months might make it very difficult to fight your case.

I misssed paying an €80 fine for speeding about 2yrs ago by a few days as I hadn't opened my post in a bit due to my mother dying and rang the office that submitted the fine to explain I would pay the 80 instead of the extra fee. It took a while to prove my case and had to get my mothers death cert to prove my story so what I'm saying is that I had to go through a lot of hoops to get off with a small extra fine, you might find it very difficult to get off on this one

SIX PACK

marc. wrote: »

hello,
I was stopped in April and asked to produce an insurance, which I didn't have at the moment. I was on my way to get both insurance and tax, I explained that to the guard that stopped me. I got fined e60 for not having tax, and I assumed that was it. Last week I received a summons for not having insurance. I know it's serious, and won't argue over that. By the end of the very day I had both tax and insurance.
It was tough time for me (still is, my first baby and a lot of health related problems with him), and I don't have better excuse and don't want to lie - previous insurance ended in January, since then I changed cars.
Can you please advise me what would be the best approach to take in this situation?
And please, we are two people without jobs, with 4mth old baby that require special attention, so try not to be too hard on me.
What I would like to know is that is there any way not to get driving ban imposed, but rather just the fine?

If your Unemployed & go to court without a Solicitor the Judge will assign you free Legal Aid then the Case will be Adjourned, Thats usually the case unless you want to get your own Solicitor He/She will probably charge €250 each day in court because more Likely than not the case will be adjourned to gather more evidence-
thats my predictment anyway been in a similar situation before. Best of Luck

angelfire9

Can i just point out to the OP that car insurance can be paid by direct debit if you can't afford to pay out a lump sum at the start of the year
I too am unemployed but i pay my car & house insurance this way each month by DD from the account into which my child benefit payment is made
Effectively this means by CB pays for my car insurance & house insurance but seeing as 90% of my car usage relates to my daughter I don't feel bad about it at all

amiable

angelfire9 wrote: »

Can i just point out to the OP that car insurance can be paid by direct debit if you can't afford to pay out a lump sum at the start of the year
I too am unemployed but i pay my car & house insurance this way each month by DD from the account into which my child benefit payment is made
Effectively this means by CB pays for my car insurance & house insurance but seeing as 90% of my car usage relates to my daughter I don't feel bad about it at all

Well you shouldn't cos if you didn't have the car you wouldn't be able to drive her around so you are dead right

Eoin

OK, I've deleted the stupid high horse photo (and the posts quoting it).

It really doesn't add anything to these threads, so please stop posting crap like that.

Stark

Most Haunted wrote: »

The OP is looking for Advise on a situation that they are in . Most of you are no providing information to the OP . The OP understands what they did weas wrong and corrected it .They do not need to be reminded of it

The only advice to give is "get a solicitor". After that, might as well relish that another member of the "Tax and insurance is something that only other people need to get" club has been caught. We pay enough in extra insurance costs to cover them after all.

swe_fi

marc. wrote: »

hello,
I was stopped in April and asked to produce an insurance, which I didn't have at the moment. I was on my way to get both insurance and tax, I explained that to the guard that stopped me. I got fined e60 for not having tax, and I assumed that was it. Last week I received a summons for not having insurance. I know it's serious, and won't argue over that. By the end of the very day I had both tax and insurance.
It was tough time for me (still is, my first baby and a lot of health related problems with him), and I don't have better excuse and don't want to lie - previous insurance ended in January, since then I changed cars.
Can you please advise me what would be the best approach to take in this situation?
And please, we are two people without jobs, with 4mth old baby that require special attention, so try not to be too hard on me.
What I would like to know is that is there any way not to get driving ban imposed, but rather just the fine?

I was in the exact same situation a couple of months back (no insurance). I had no excuse for not having insurance, the cop who stopped me was an ok guy but "by the book" sort of guy if you follow me. If my experience is anything to go by, I went to court not knowing what to expect so I got sort of conned/hustled by a solicitor in the reception area in the court (cost €150). Turns out I would not have needed him. There was 5 cases on very similar to mine (no excuse, but got insurance the following day or 2). All got a €500 fine but no ban. The cop who stopped you will be in court and read a little story about how he stopped you most likely.

I would not have needed a solicitor I can say for sure. There was a polish guy on before me and he was EXACTLY the same case as me and he had no solicitor but a translator, received the exact same as me.

There was one girl who DID get a ban she had a translator and a really really really bad english solicitor who literally made every single error you can make, (He called the judge "Maam"!) it was entertaining to watch but pity for her. In fairness she made up some bs story so that + the useless solicitor got her a 12 month ban. Another thing was she never got insured after the incident. This was in Galway, Dublin may be different. I'm sure it varies from Judge to Judge as well.

As someone said above, don't make up some sob story (think they have heard it all), say as little as you can and act apologetic (as I'm sure you are). I would not say "I was on the way to get tax & insurance", even if it was true ;-)

I brought my license, the veichle reg cert, & my insurance cert, maybe bring tax reciept as well if you can. If you have time, call down to the court a day / week beforehand and listen to the proceedings. That would have helped me.

mickdw

What happens if you crashed into someone OP? Happy to let everyone else pay? Makes me sick tbh. Then to come on here saying you were on your way to get tax & insurance at the time means you are just thinking that you are taking everyone for fools. Certainly a ban should be applied but the way things are, it will be a fine I would say.
Anyway, someone who will drive around for 3 months without insurance will most likely drive whether their licence is taken or not. Of course you wouldnt be insured if banned from holding a licence but that is unlikely to trouble the OP

WIZE

mickdw wrote: »

What happens if

It didn't so why suggest it

I know it looks like I agree with OP . I dont but still they are asking for Advise

Should be a new thread opened in R&R

Cookie_Monster

swe_fi wrote: »

There was 5 cases on very similar to mine (no excuse, but got insurance the following day or 2). All got a €500 fine but no ban. The cop who stopped you will be in court and read a little story about how he stopped you most likely.

why are they all getting away with this then?

That's shocking, and lets be honest €500 quid is hardly a deterrent.

Obviously the cost of crashing should be a deterrent but these people clearly don't think of that anyway. It should be a mandatory minimum term ban, there is no excuse, period.

amiable

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why are they all getting away with this then?

That's shocking, and lets be honest €500 quid is hardly a deterrent.

Obviously the cost of crashing should be a deterrent but these people clearly don't think of that anyway. It should be a mandatory minimum term ban, there is no excuse, period.

Why are people surprised by this?
This isn't a dig at you..... I'm just surprised that people are surprised that its happening if the punishment isn't a deterrent

Lando Griffin

OP. Dont take the advise of the person who attended court without a solicitor, sometimes the Judge hearing an unrepresented case will have a very low opinion on the defandant, ie. as if you couldn't be bothered making an effert hence showing disregard for the procedures of the courts and the seriousness of the offence in question. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/motoring-1/motor-tax-and-insurance/motor_insurance

Reads.

You must have motor insurance to drive a car in your own name or as a named driver on someone else's policy.

Failure to have motor insurance or driving without insurance in Ireland is generally punishable by:

• A fine of up to €2,500
• Disqualification of one year or more for a first offence and two years or more for a second offence, and
• At the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.

In the case of a first offence of driving without insurance, the court may decide in special cases not to impose a period of disqualification or to impose a period of disqualification of less than a year.
Since 1 June 2003, where the courts in Ireland decide not to impose a disqualification, drivers convicted of a first offence of driving without insurance will incur 5 penalty points on their licence record in addition to any other penalty imposed by the court.
If you commit a second offence for driving without insurance, you will be automatically disqualified from driving. You should also note, that where a member of An Garda Síochána (Irish police force) believes that a vehicle registered in Ireland (or outside Ireland) is being used in a public place without insurance, the vehicle may be impounded.

swe_fi

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why are they all getting away with this then?

That's shocking, and lets be honest €500 quid is hardly a deterrent.

Obviously the cost of crashing should be a deterrent but these people clearly don't think of that anyway. It should be a mandatory minimum term ban, there is no excuse, period.

Don't know, leniency from the Judge? I know the law, I was wrong, I got caught, just sharing my experience & my take on it. I don't even know if this is representative for the whole of Ireland. For me at least I can say the €650 and going to court will certainly act as a deterrent for the future. Thinking back, it actually ended up costing me about €1000 with impound and stuff.

furtzy

WTF? :eek: I'm shocked €500 and no ban thats a joke. I thought you were supposed to get 5 points as well for this

JCJCJC

OP - go see a solicitor, don't leave it to picking one at random on the day of court. Choose a solicitor who appears routinely in that court anyway, it keeps costs down. Discuss costs with the solicitor and if you find the cost proposals prohibitive ask the solicitor to apply for free legal aid on your behalf and engage the solicitor subject to getting it. You will need evidence of your means in court for the judge to consider in relation to your application for free legal aid. The case will not be automatically adjourned as an earlier poster suggests- that happens when the solicitor is picked from the bench and needs time to take instructions.

On the deterrent value of fines...Lord, people really have no idea how this country operates. Let's just say I'm a reasonably charitable individual but I don't give anything to the V de P in the better interests of having a functional justice system.

The garda who is alleging your offence will give sworn evidence in court and may be cross-examined by your solicitor, or even yourself. They may consult notes as an aide-memoire but the evidence is what they say - it's not supposed to be reading a story.

If you really did tax and insure the car on the same day, bring the supporting paperwork in full and have your solicitor offer it in mitigation. It won't show that you didn't commit the offence obviously, but it is really good for mitigation of the punishment, taken with your current poor financial circumstances. Take your solicitor's advice on entering a guilty plea from the outset, and confining your case to mitigation, it would work with some district judges. If you have a clean legal record to date be sure to say that too and emphasise the importance of maintaining that in connection with your job-seeking efforts.

Don't be put down by the adverse comments you are getting. Get a haircut on the day, wear a tie and be deferential to the judge. Meet the guard before court and briefly apologise, so that your solicitor can say that for you. Don't ever make a written statement to the gardai unless your solicitor has drafted it for you in connection with this or anything else. Ask your solicitor about the Probation Act.

Good luck.

JC

bijapos

^ 39 posts in and JCJC has it in a nutshell. Take JC's advice OP.

JCJCJC

bijapos wrote: »

^ 39 posts in and JCJC has it in a nutshell. Take JC's advice OP.

It's just law. It's not rocket surgery ;-)

JC

Abelloid

Barname wrote: »

en route to buy Insurance and Tax your car you were stopped?

Here is some advice; dont try that one on the Judge.

Sorry OP, but I agree - I really don't think the judge will accept that.

TheNog

JCJCJC wrote: »

Im sorry ? - I've been working in courts for over thirty years and I've seen children in court innumerable times, including babies-in-arms. Can you post a url to a statutory provision that says that, I would be very interested.

If you were bringing a personal injuries action on behalf of a child who for example suffered significant and disfiguring facial scarring due to the negligence of another party and you wanted damages on that ground, how would you propose showing the evidence to the court?

At law, a child is a person under 18 who is or has not been married as I understand it. Can none of those attend court even if only as a member of the general public in the gallery, in exercise of the constitutional provision that justice be done in public?

JC

Most judges that I have been in court with dont allow children in court unless of course the child part of any proceedings. To have a baby in court where the child could cry would not be in the OP's favour should it annoy the judge.

There is nothing to say children should not be in court but I think any good parent would not expose a child to it. I know it is rare but I have seen violence in court. Im sure you have too.

swe_fi

You have some good points there JC, but in fact my solicitor said that 5/6 cases (like mine) are not being disqualified given you have no previous. I'm not saying you are wrong in your advice, solicitor might be the best way to go. I'm sure / i think you are right about apologizing to the cop but I still find that strange that such a thing would matter. The thing about looking smart, same thing there it is true but strange.

JCJCJC

swe_fi wrote: »

You have some good points there JC, but in fact my solicitor said that 5/6 cases (like mine) are not being disqualified given you have no previous. I'm not saying you are wrong in your advice, solicitor might be the best way to go. I'm sure / i think you are right about apologizing to the cop but I still find that strange that such a thing would matter. The thing about looking smart, same thing there it is true but strange.

Smart Dublin-based senior counsel will often make legal jokes about justice in rural Ireland being 'palm-tree justice', ie comparable to an african village. There's a grain of truth in it though. District Justices have wide discretion in how they apply the law, and there isn't total consistency in how offences are treated in every district, particularly in relation to sentencing policy. Same applies in the Circuit Court. I have some sympathy with them. The endless, endless parade of misery and miscreants they must face every day would break the strongest person. I am occasionally in Limerick city court on a Monday morning, and to see what has been arrested over a weekend and brought before the court would make you afraid to walk the same streets as them. And the crowd of their supporters in the body of court look every bit as undesirable usually.
A judge has a few minutes to form an impression of the defendant and the credibility of his case. What law calls 'the demeanour of the witness' is all the judge has to go on, but if they had any self-doubt about their ability to make a decision on that basis they wouldn't get past the first ten cases. So, if our OP from Galway turns up in ripped denims, 'orrible trainers, t-shirt and tattoos, chews gum, reeks of fags and has enough body piercings to go into the scrap business, the judge is going to say the quicker you sit down again, hombre, the better. However, if he appears respectful to the court, the law and the process, the judge might just give him the one-in-fifty break he needs. Every lawyer in the country, and maybe in the world, will say 'it depends on the judge you draw on the day' and it does. Hence my general advice - organise your paperwork, see a solicitor who is not antagonistic to the judge by default, present yourself as if it were a job interview, don't waste court time and look contrite and respectful, trust your solicitor to present your best case.

JC

Edit: Google 'palm-tree justice' if you doubt me.

marc.

thank you for all the answers. I didn't mention that I had a motor tax application stamped by Gardai with a date of 2 days before I was stopped.

nevertheless, the judge believed my explanation and fined me e100 without imposing driving ban. solicitor's fee was another e100 (seems they didn't want to charge me more than the fine), so it makes e200 in total which I am happy with

Cookie_Monster

:mad: another light sentenced failure for the Irish Judicial system.

Boskowski

You were driving 3 months with different cars with no insurance.

You deserve to be off the road. Big time. Can't believe you got away so lightly.

JCJCJC

That's a good news from you Marc, hope you learnt something in the process. You're not the biggest lawbreaker in the country so you didn't get the biggest sanction either. €100 for the solicitor was well spent, you weren't overdone at that.

JC

mikemac

swe_fi wrote: »

There was one girl who DID get a ban she had a translator and a really really really bad english solicitor who literally made every single error you can make, (He called the judge "Maam"!) it was entertaining to watch but pity for her. In fairness she made up some bs story so that + the useless solicitor got her a 12 month ban. Another thing was she never got insured after the incident. This was in Galway, Dublin may be different. I'm sure it varies from Judge to Judge as well.

Judge Fahy in Galway?
An iron lady, not someone you want to annoy in her court

marc. wrote: »

nevertheless, the judge believed my explanation and fined me e100 without imposing driving ban. solicitor's fee was another e100 (seems they didn't want to charge me more than the fine), so it makes e200 in total which I am happy with

That is so light it's a joke!
I got a bigger fine then that for not paying my TV licence
I hold my hands up, did the crime, apologized in court and paid my fine but you were driving three months without insurance, I thought sentancing was supposed to fair and proportionate :mad:

Henry Ford III

Fine was pretty low, but as OP said the Judge seems to have listened to the plea for leniency.

p.s. OP what happens your insurance now? Did you inform the insurer about the pending prosecution? How many penalty points did you get?