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Izevbekhai and pleading the belly in Irish Law

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Actually it's because she lied about having a child that died due to FGM. The idea that somebody would lie about something so verifiable (let alone tragic) never occurred to me, I have to say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    goose2005 wrote: »
    There's no prospect of anyone performing fgm except the izevbekhai family. She can move to Abuja if she wants to get away from them.
    Yeah, but she'll still be in Nigeria.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    I think people are losing track of the topic. This thread is not about people who have genuine asylum cases, it is about those who do not and commit perjury and pervert the course of justice and how the current system does not deter them from doing so. The Izevbekhai case is simply an example of one that appears to fall into this category.

    It is also about how the law (and society in general) seems to grant lenient treatment or outright immunity from criminal acts on the basis of being a mother, again not deterring some from carrying out criminal acts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    I think people are losing track of the topic. This thread is not about people who have genuine asylum cases, it is about those who do not and commit perjury and pervert the course of justice and how the current system does not deter them from doing so. The Izevbekhai case is simply an example of one that appears to fall into this category.

    It is also about how the law (and society in general) seems to grant lenient treatment or outright immunity from criminal acts on the basis of being a mother, again not deterring some from carrying out criminal acts.
    This thread should be read in conjunction with the 'Protest on Rooftop' thread to get an idea of the priorities of this country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    This thread is not about people who have genuine asylum cases, it is about those who do not and commit perjury and pervert the course of justice and how the current system does not deter them from doing so. The Izevbekhai case is simply an example of one that appears to fall into this category.

    And with that apposite Corinthian quote,perhaps it`s time to enquire as to how Ms Izevbekhai`s case is currently progressing ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    And with that apposite Corinthian quote,perhaps it`s time to enquire as to how Ms Izevbekhai`s case is currently progressing ?
    All very quiet as far as the media is concerned. All I would comment is that the on-line support that existed up until shortly after her documents were reveled to be false has evaporated - even the letthemstay.org site is down and related social sites have not been updated since last year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Pot Noodle =


    Dont tell she is still here, i thought it would have been up in the courts a long time ago ie fraudulent documentation and all


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,368 ✭✭✭jmcc


    All very quiet as far as the media is concerned. All I would comment is that the on-line support that existed up until shortly after her documents were reveled to be false has evaporated - even the letthemstay.org site is down and related social sites have not been updated since last year.
    The website is gone and the domain name is now parked with PPC advertising. It was renewed though. The media may have some serious questions to answer over its handling of this case.

    Regards...jmcc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    jmcc wrote: »
    The media may have some serious questions to answer over its handling of this case.
    No, I suspect they will never want the topic ever discussed again, which might explain one of the reasons that the case has lost the media spotlight of before. It's kind of hard to maintain credibility in investigative journalism when you've been fooled so publicly, after all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭juleserino


    Kivaro wrote: »
    I hope that changes would be made to the system as a result of this farce. But who would initiate it? Do politicians today have the backbone to tackle 'race-sensitive' laws? They certainly did not back in the day when fraud was prevalent in the asylum application process. Even if Pam gets deported, another variant of her appeal will be filed by someone else (based on the current laws). This will continue ad nauseum until the politicians figure out that the country is being taken for a ride, at the expense of the genuine asylum seeker and the tax payer.

    Politicians appear to have a propensity to support other politicians who perjure themselves in our courts. Ironically, this same body of individuals are vested by virtue of Article 15.2.1 of the constitution with law making power.

    Willie O' Dea commited perjury in the High Court. He received no criminal sanction.:confused:

    Despite his transgression Mr O' Dea received the full support, within the confines of the Dail I might add, of both the Prime Minister and the Minister for justice with regard said transgression, both of whom are lawyers.:confused:

    Mr O'Dea was clearly guilty of perjury. He did not go to jail. No criminal sanction was imposed. It was not a civil matter, however it was managed as such, and subsequently settled as though his transgression was little more than a breach of civil law. This being despite the fact that it most certainly was not.

    In light of such, I ask those of you posting here who advocate Ms. Izevbekhai's incarceration to explain why she SHOULD go to jail. It appears that she may well be guilty of perjury, however I ask you, how can our minister for justice together with members of our judiciary actively support Mr O' Dea who was clearly guilty of perjury in the High Court and then subsequently move to prosecute Ms. Izevbekhai for the same crime as that commited by Mr O' Dea.

    Is this a magical application of our legislative instruments?

    I do not mean to move "off topic" here with the O' Dea thing, however it appears that the imposition of a criminal sanction must first and foremost be consistent with an approach commensurate with the equal application of such a sanction.

    Ms. Izevbekhai may appear to have acted with impunity, however it seems apparent that she may well have learned that not only is such an approach to our courts acceptable, but is perhaps also not without its rewards.

    Just ask Mr O' Dea:D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    juleserino wrote: »
    Ms. Izevbekhai may appear to have acted with impunity, however it seems apparent that she may well have learned that not only is such an approach to our courts acceptable, but is perhaps also not without its rewards.
    Just because one transgression went unpunished does not mean that no transgression should go punished - it's a bit of a straw man. Certainly if a transgression goes unpunished due to political cronyism, then this is something that should be reformed, just as the punishment of transgression's that go unpunished through 'pleading of the belly' should also be reformed.

    And this is a thread about the latter - just so we don't go OT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Pot Noodle =


    Because she is costing this State an absolute fortune that is why she must go


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Pot wrote:
    Because she is costing this State an absolute fortune that is why she must go
    But what do you say with regard to the topic of this thread?


  • Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Pot Noodle =


    But what do you say with regard to the topic of this thread?

    She is playing on this Female circumcision to remain in this Country and it is costing a fortune in fees that is all


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Pot wrote:
    She is playing on this Female circumcision to remain in this Country and it is costing a fortune in fees that is all
    Not really all as there are larger implications: Throw her out and there's no disincentive against lying - anyone who wants to chance their arm and commit fraud has nothing to lose. Throw her in jail and it may curb some of those who do attempt such scams in the future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Pot Noodle =


    So you say make a example of her but it still cost everyone more money and her children are still in the sate not that i have anything against them but i say just get rid of this Fraudulent women


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭juleserino


    Just because one transgression went unpunished does not mean that no transgression should go punished - it's a bit of a straw man. Certainly if a transgression goes unpunished due to political cronyism, then this is something that should be reformed, just as the punishment of transgression's that go unpunished through 'pleading of the belly' should also be reformed.

    And this is a thread about the latter - just so we don't go OT.

    Ms. Izevbekhai should no doubt be subjected to the full force of the law, if it is proven that she transgressed said law. I agree with you there, however the example I gave was one of perjury, not necessarily one of political crony-ism. The players, together with the plea, may certainly differ but the transgression remains the same. Ms. Izevbekhai lied to the court in an endeavor to make her case. Mr' O Dea lied to the High Court in an effort not to have to appear later and make his. They are one and the same. Perjury is perjury, and it appears that perjury is the pre-dominant problem when one looks at asylum cases. It certainly is in the Izevbekhai case.

    In light of the example given by not only the High Court, but also the Minister for Justice in Mr' O Deas case, is it not fair to assume that any individual with a weak case for asylum or any other legal issue, would rightly consider perjury as a means to an end?

    It would be difficult not to consider perjury as a solution to ones asylum problems when one is presented with such an example as that which prevailed in the High Court with Mr 'O Dea.

    We as a people look to the law for guidance, if we do not look before we leap the law will look into it on our behalf, albeit to our detriment or the detriment/benefit of others. Asylum seekers like everyone else read the papers. If they see such behavior going unpunished they will engage in this same behavior in order to achieve their goals and they will do so with impunity and with complete dis-regard for our laws, as has Ms. Izevbekhai.

    I cannot understand how such considerations may be deemed off-topic. Examples can and must be made. An opportunity to make one such example was lost both on the High Court and the Government. It would have been a very public example had it been made, and might have served to send out the message that our courts will not put up perjury.

    How can we expect others to respect our system of governance if we refuse to respect them ourselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    How can we expect others to respect our system of governance if we refuse to respect them ourselves.

    With respect Juleserino,I think you`ll have your work cut-out to find any great outpouring of respect for the activities of Mr W O`Dea TD on Boards.ie or anywhere outside of his own constituency.

    However I do accept your point regarding the unusual nature of this gentlemans behaviour,so much so that I believe it demands a seperate thread all to itself as it has implications for Irish society far beyond the Izevbekhai interest.
    No, I suspect they will never want the topic ever discussed again, which might explain one of the reasons that the case has lost the media spotlight of before. It's kind of hard to maintain credibility in investigative journalism when you've been fooled so publicly, after all.

    As The Corinthian mentions above,the Pamela Izevbekhai case,and the manner in which a sizeable number of our Political and Media establishment abandoned all sense of professional detachment and objectivity in a collective rush to embrace,what they appeared to believe was cultural diversity,now raises a skip-load of questions as to the status of these people to begin with.

    The Irish Media,almost without exception,bought into the Izevbekhai story with great gusto and thence embarked on a campaign of supportive puff-pieces and assorted other anti Nigerian establishment articles.

    The role of Mr Bouchier-Hayes and RTE in general also deserves further explaination to the greater public as well as the Licence Payers :)

    However,I would concur with Julesrino that the reputation and good-standing of our Courts Service is now at al all-time low.

    Indeed,could the redoubtable Mr O`Dea or his Legal Team have studied the Izevbekhai transcripts as they prepared for their day-in-the-box ?

    The entire Izevbekhai circus has opened a gaping wound in the corpus of the Irish Higher Courts,which I suspect some of the Judiciary who have deliberated upon her pleas are only too well aware of.

    The last opinion delivered by the Chief Justice was particularly unusual in that,to a layperson such as I,it appeared to suggest that the Chief Justice was all-at-sea as to whether his court had any role to play at all in the proceedings ?

    Not really all as there are larger implications: Throw her out and there's no disincentive against lying - anyone who wants to chance their arm and commit fraud has nothing to lose. Throw her in jail and it may curb some of those who do attempt such scams in the future.

    Again,The Corinthian manages to succinctly outline the realpolitik of the Izevbekhai case,the outcome of which is being followed closely in several juristictions.

    Perhaps the only other punishment to concentrate the minds of the Izevbekhai camp and their shadowy facilitators is a major fine in lieu of jail-time...It would be interesting to see which option would be availed of ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭bonzos


    Jusy to put iceing on the cake Sligo county clr. Veronice Cawley decided to take a break from junkets and offer this woman a civil reception...what a lunatic!but sure who care she is not paying for it:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 797 ✭✭✭john-joe


    bonzos wrote: »
    Jusy to put iceing on the cake Sligo county clr. Veronice Cawley decided to take a break from junkets and offer this woman a civil reception...what a lunatic!but sure who care she is not paying for it:rolleyes:

    have you got a link to the above story?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mayor-hails-mums-fight-for-daughters-1564544.html

    John-Joe,this is the closest reference I could dig out.....any good to you ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭juleserino


    AlekSmart wrote: »

    The last opinion delivered by the Chief Justice was particularly unusual in that,to a layperson such as I,it appeared to suggest that the Chief Justice was all-at-sea as to whether his court had any role to play at all in the proceedings ?

    "Pleading the belly" sure does have a harsh ring to it. The underlying concept highlights a harsh reality. I guess it is no wonder the judiciary is all at sea with this one. They took her at her word. Who could possibly live with the responsibility of sending a child back home to what the judiciary were led to believe was their fate. Perhaps a reluctance to do so has them in the pickle they are in. Always wondered why the Dept. of Justice were so keen to deport them, whilst the judiciary remained reluctant to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,368 ✭✭✭jmcc


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The last opinion delivered by the Chief Justice was particularly unusual in that,to a layperson such as I,it appeared to suggest that the Chief Justice was all-at-sea as to whether his court had any role to play at all in the proceedings ?
    From what I remember, he was questioning whether the case should be considered as the legislation being relied upon by Izevbekhai's legal team was enacted after the original deportation order was signed. It was the legalistic equivalent of dropping a nuke. This is why he requested arguments from both sides.

    I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

    Regards...jmcc


  • Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭bonzos


    john-joe wrote: »
    have you got a link to the above story?
    Google it!The people in the NW are sick of this circus....


  • Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭Pot Noodle =


    bonzos wrote: »
    Google it!The people in the NW are sick of this circus....

    Then why are some of them supporting it then


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Then why are some of them supporting it then

    Very true,although Ms Izevbekhai`s support base has dwindled alarmingly since her very thorough exposure as being somewhat more of a total fraud than a genuine case for asylum.

    Once again it has to be pointed out that Pamela Izevbekhai has done more to harm the cause of genuine asylum seekers than any right-wing anti immigration lobby ever could.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭ilovelamp2000


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Who pays for the barristers in asylum cases or need I even ask?

    If you take a look through the High Court list you'll find that only a small proportion of judicial review cases are legally aided.

    A lot of them are either financed by the litigant, or taken on a no foal no fee basis, sometimes by the solicitor, but often by the barristers. If they win the costs are paid by the state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Sleepy`s post does raise some pertinent questions re the funding of the Izevbekhai case.

    In the earlier stages there appeared to be quite a well of public financial support and equally of Legal Teams perpared to act for her on favourable terms.

    However of late we have seen at least two legal teams remove themselves from the case at short notice followed by the most recent appearance of Nigerian Legal Representatives to act for her.

    The issue may not be so much who is paying for her representation as how much it is costing us (Taxpayers) to defend the State against unfounded and largely vexatious charges ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭bonzos


    Pot wrote:
    Then why are some of them supporting it then
    No matter how big of a crook you are in the country some people will still support you...just look at Bertie,Ray Burke,John O Donoghue,The Flynns,CJH.Dont confuse support the reality of this scam:rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭Vinegar Hill


    The Supreme Court is due to make a key ruling today on Nigerian woman Pamela Izevbekhai’s fight to stay in Ireland.
    The court is to decide whether Pamela Izevbekhai is in a position to further appeal the decision by the minister for justice to deport her.

    http://oceanfm.ie/news/2010/07/09/pamela-izevbekhai-back-before-supreme-court-3/

    Maybe she will be sent off now.


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