You have to "make it" outside your own country first

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

Most bands I know (independants) hit 13 at most and fell out as they forgot that the following week you get 50% of the previous week

so 900 got the last guys there, and then week 2 started on 450 and sold about a hundred so droped off the scale

Its easy to chart but you need to hold it to have any chance of getting your band around, a single weeks airplay is not enough as people will be at work or not in car at that time listening to radio so 2 weeks or above is where you see real difference etc.. etc..

And by the way great posts lads, good to have a discussion for once

This is one of the main reasons why trying to do this **** on yer own is so impossible.

If you want real consistent airplay you need the money and connections labels have... or just 1/100,000 luck.

maccored

a band I was in charted at 18, but that was a month of selling at least a few hundred a week. Charting isnt really worth the hassle as all we got out of it was whatever we made on the sales (which wasnt alot). not much publicity.

PMI wrote: »

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

Most bands I know (independants) hit 13 at most and fell out as they forgot that the following week you get 50% of the previous week

so 900 got the last guys there, and then week 2 started on 450 and sold about a hundred so droped off the scale

Its easy to chart but you need to hold it to have any chance of getting your band around, a single weeks airplay is not enough as people will be at work or not in car at that time listening to radio so 2 weeks or above is where you see real difference etc.. etc..

And by the way great posts lads, good to have a discussion for once

PMI

MilanPan!c wrote: »

This is one of the main reasons why trying to do this **** on yer own is so impossible.

If you want real consistent airplay you need the money and connections labels have... or just 1/100,000 luck.

Nothing is impossible.... whos gonna buy it?

If you have 3-5000 real fans that follow you, you might have a chance if you just accepted anyone and added anyone on my space to look cool you will probably die a death.

NEVER use a friend adder let the truth be shown, as your only cheating yourself the other way

Also charting high the radio stations have to play you as you then make the official play list so money isnt always the way to go....

Its the song / following / PR

Waking-Dreams

Well, two bands on the same label are obviously both competing and cooperating.

For example.

And athletes practice together, make each other stronger, then compete.

Music isn't a competitive sport, although the way bands behave, you'd swear they thought it was. Only, good music isn't really quantifiable, whereas if you are the fastest/strongest athlete, that's actually measurable – I suppose largest CD sales or biggest audience attendances would be used in the case of bands as a yard stick, but neither accounts for people's perception of what is “good” when it comes to their taste, for example, Jedward might sell X number of CD singles; doesn't mean everyone will agree they are “good”.

Anyways, here's one scenario which relates to bands who all reside in the same area and make up a “scene”, and profess their support for co-operation for the benefit of everyone.

Say you work at a call centre, along with 40 other people who do the same job as you. One day, by accident an email intended for the payroll dept. gets sent to everyone at the company which contains a list of everyone's salary. Now, you might be unsurprised to see that the bosses and upper-management earn more than you but then you notice how all of your “equal” co-workers get slightly more money than you. Wide-eyed, you stare in disbelief at the email, wondering how or why they're getting paid more than you when all of you do the exact same job; in fact some of them tend to goof-off on the job and haven't been with the company as long as you have, yet they're getting paid more.

Technically speaking, you're all on the same team (working for the company) and should be supportive of each other and work together because it benefits the company at the end of the day and hence, ensures you all get to make your money but inside, you just can't stand to see others have an unfair advantage over you. As humans, we don't like to see others around us have any kind of advantage over us. We accept it alright, but we don't particularly like it.

This is an engineered example of course, but in the case of bands, you can see how this translates across music scenes. Even if a band has an advantage over other bands it might be because they're simply “better” at what they do, but the other bands won't always like this. They want to uphold some kind of warped utopia where everyone does well, in equal measures; a fantasy, or rather, that they're in the upper echelons above some others. I think this is why they can be uncooperative in subtle ways depending on their own popularity and success.

Another thing is that audience and author are now one. More people are playing in bands than ever, so members of the audience at one gig are on stage at another. With everyone broadcasting themselves, it can make for a much more harder time when bands try and find fans, because those fans are also looking for fans of their own. Self-interest is always at work and so many conversations among punters at gigs often end with a, "you should check us out on myspace".

miju

PMI wrote: »

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

looking at last weeks Chart Track sales data I'd disagree with you. But agree with the rest of your points in the post.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Self-interest is always at work and so many conversations among punters at gigs often end with a, "you should check us out on myspace".

So true.

It's funny, you and I see so many things in exactly the same way, but just reach different conclusions.

Can I ask, do you still play music?

Are you in a band?

What's the deal then?

What are they called? What do you play/sing? #

All of these long long answers, but little personal info... I can't be the only one that wants to know.

:P

PMI

miju wrote: »

looking at last weeks Chart Track sales data I'd disagree with you. But agree with the rest of your points in the post.

Cheers, yeah it changes as you know every week some weeks a real low count will get ya in and then around other months 2k wont even make a dent usually late Nov / December....

My post was just guys I know and what they had to do...

miju

PMI wrote: »

Cheers, yeah it changes as you know every week some weeks a real low count will get ya in and then around other months 2k wont even make a dent usually late Nov / December....

My post was just guys I know and what they had to do...

Indeed sales flucuate each week , especially has they dont record all physical sales.But point is if a band gets a slow week they have every opportunity.

PMI

Very true will put it all to the test next month and let you all know

NyquistFreak

@ MilanPan!c and Waking Dreams: I've been following yer back and forth there now for a few days between this and another thread, and I like ye're notions...

I'm not a performing musician now at all, coming at it from the engineering/production end (I play guitar, piano and sing to myself all the time but if there's so much as a neighbour at home next door forget about it like, performance is just not my thing at all at all!) But you've both got me thinking more about a co-operative idea of getting artists and engineers working together to the benefit of the country's music scene in general...

It was pointed out on the other thread (something about labels and what use they are) that musicians here seem to think its either a completely DIY job or label based (expensive) endeavour to get any sort of decent recordings, airplay, gigs whatever...I dont think anyone sees the middle ground at all so for the record, a few statistics:

This year in Limerick alone: 30 people graduate with a level 7 from LITs Music Tech & production course, 20 with the level 8, 30 from the UL's degree in music media and performance, and another 20 ish from the masters music tech....plus all the lads from tralee, maynooth, csn, pulse, ballyfermot etc etc...actually one of the best metal engineers I know came out of the video and sound course in LIT actually, and has a savage reputation round these here parts for his work, so you could take them into consideration too...

add this to all of next year's graduates, plus the year's after that...with the limerick degree ones anyway this will be the first year of graduates, so ya, times definitely are a-changing!

A nice majority of the four class groups in my college anyway are mature students who were out working in sound/ did the city & guilds/fetac/betec courses before starting, so thats a lot of serious people..a lot of them also have some nice set ups already at home paid for by the day job, plus a background in studio design so the space would be acoustically proper, what they will offer is not the same kind of standard as your traditional bedroom studio at all at all...

We're all faced with the prospect of having been highly educated in the area without much of an outlet once we finish our final exams (without having to leave the country for it like the OP questions), we know the state of the country at the moment, and we will take whatever job we get to pay the bills... literally beggars cant be choosers in this day and age, but what I'm getting at is that there will, over the next five years be a huge influx of people who really know what they're doing, crying out for a creative outlet to put their skills to work.

In much the same way any musician needs to pick up their instrument every now and then to feel whole, we will seek out projects to work on just to be doing something in the area, not all of us will even look to be paid for our participation in these projects, depending on personal circumstance (although obviously being paid would be better, but if given the option between working on a project that artistically resonates with me for nothing, or not having anything to work on at all...i know which I'd choose lets just say that much) It's our creative outlet the same as music is for a musician, or art for the lads from the art college, its not purely for making money, and in that sense.....

I'd love to set up some sort of co-op between musicians looking for engineers and vice versa, where it'd be up to the people involved to negotiate their terms themselves between them of course, but to just advertise that we're there, what we do, and are up for a bit of collaboration....to help artists not only find a good engineer and for engineers to find artists, but one that suits their style like. bit of a forum crossed with myspace or something...I might even have a business plan for an online publishing company (which would deal with the radios, promotion, copyright etc) already sitting on my hard drive left over from an fyp if anyone's interested I wouldn't mind giving it a go...as a kind of missing link between the DIY approach and the full on label route...you wouldnt have to sign any contracts committing yourself to anything, just offer/accept work as it comes...I'm really really not explaining this well here now at all! If anyone's interested pm me and I'll send ye the details, haha! But like someone mentioned on the other thread, labels do like self starters, if this venture would be nothing at all more than a learning experience for all involved, or a way to keep the likes of me climbing the walls screaming bits and pieces from me thesis at passers by jut to be doing something... I still think it could be worth giving it a shot! If people would be up for it like. Any thoughts?

MilanPan!c

NyquistFreak wrote: »

@ MilanPan!c and Waking Dreams: I've been following yer back and forth there now for a few days between this and another thread, and I like ye're notions...

---

I'd love to set up some sort of co-op between musicians looking for engineers and vice versa, where it'd be up to the people involved to negotiate their terms themselves between them of course, but to just advertise that we're there, what we do, and are up for a bit of collaboration....to help artists not only find a good engineer and for engineers to find artists, but one that suits their style like. bit of a forum crossed with myspace or something...I might even have a business plan for an online publishing company (which would deal with the radios, promotion, copyright etc) already sitting on my hard drive left over from an fyp if anyone's interested I wouldn't mind giving it a go...as a kind of missing link between the DIY approach and the full on label route...you wouldnt have to sign any contracts committing yourself to anything, just offer/accept work as it comes...I'm really really not explaining this well here now at all! If anyone's interested pm me and I'll send ye the details, haha! But like someone mentioned on the other thread, labels do like self starters, if this venture would be nothing at all more than a learning experience for all involved, or a way to keep the likes of me climbing the walls screaming bits and pieces from me thesis at passers by jut to be doing something... I still think it could be worth giving it a shot! If people would be up for it like. Any thoughts?

First, thanks for the kind words!

:P

More importantly, I REALLY think you've got a GREAT idea.

What would make it work even more is if there was an umbrella organization that could do a bit of bartering with engineers/musicians so that more successful ones would mentor up-and-comers.

And then.

Up and comers could access the org resources (other musicians, recording, promotion even) and in exchange they would agree to "volunteer" their time back into the org.

So basically an entire volunteer organisation that benefited everybody.

PMI

Guys I know the feeling but I dont think it will be anything other than another forum, the big boys dont hang out on the net, their working and they're the guys you need.

Im lucky enough to of grown up in a different time, I started in London when I was 17 in a studio 2 roads away from abbey road and I got to work with some big assed producers as an assistant engineer and this is when producers were PRODUCERS not some dude with reaper on a PC one of which mc Laren died a few weeks ago

I finally got my own residential studio Westlake Lodge in 2009 and took a guy from LIT as a kinda assistant to the point where I hoped he would take over as I dont have time because of the band.

You can make it in this Biz but you have to be different and Funkin good at what you do, not a text book clone, which alot of uni guys are.....

you have to take the risk in order to create the bigger picture, and whatever you do, try not to think about it to much as the more your think about something the less inclined you will be to follow it through

Rancidmaniac13

NyquistFreak wrote: »

@ MilanPan!c and Waking Dreams: I've been following yer back and forth there now for a few days between this and another thread, and I like ye're notions...

I'm not a performing musician now at all, coming at it from the engineering/production end (I play guitar, piano and sing to myself all the time but if there's so much as a neighbour at home next door forget about it like, performance is just not my thing at all at all!) But you've both got me thinking more about a co-operative idea of getting artists and engineers working together to the benefit of the country's music scene in general...

It was pointed out on the other thread (something about labels and what use they are) that musicians here seem to think its either a completely DIY job or label based (expensive) endeavour to get any sort of decent recordings, airplay, gigs whatever...I dont think anyone sees the middle ground at all so for the record, a few statistics:

This year in Limerick alone: 30 people graduate with a level 7 from LITs Music Tech & production course, 20 with the level 8, 30 from the UL's degree in music media and performance, and another 20 ish from the masters music tech....plus all the lads from tralee, maynooth, csn, pulse, ballyfermot etc etc...actually one of the best metal engineers I know came out of the video and sound course in LIT actually, and has a savage reputation round these here parts for his work, so you could take them into consideration too...

add this to all of next year's graduates, plus the year's after that...with the limerick degree ones anyway this will be the first year of graduates, so ya, times definitely are a-changing!

A nice majority of the four class groups in my college anyway are mature students who were out working in sound/ did the city & guilds/fetac/betec courses before starting, so thats a lot of serious people..a lot of them also have some nice set ups already at home paid for by the day job, plus a background in studio design so the space would be acoustically proper, what they will offer is not the same kind of standard as your traditional bedroom studio at all at all...

We're all faced with the prospect of having been highly educated in the area without much of an outlet once we finish our final exams (without having to leave the country for it like the OP questions), we know the state of the country at the moment, and we will take whatever job we get to pay the bills... literally beggars cant be choosers in this day and age, but what I'm getting at is that there will, over the next five years be a huge influx of people who really know what they're doing, crying out for a creative outlet to put their skills to work.

In much the same way any musician needs to pick up their instrument every now and then to feel whole, we will seek out projects to work on just to be doing something in the area, not all of us will even look to be paid for our participation in these projects, depending on personal circumstance (although obviously being paid would be better, but if given the option between working on a project that artistically resonates with me for nothing, or not having anything to work on at all...i know which I'd choose lets just say that much) It's our creative outlet the same as music is for a musician, or art for the lads from the art college, its not purely for making money, and in that sense.....

I'd love to set up some sort of co-op between musicians looking for engineers and vice versa, where it'd be up to the people involved to negotiate their terms themselves between them of course, but to just advertise that we're there, what we do, and are up for a bit of collaboration....to help artists not only find a good engineer and for engineers to find artists, but one that suits their style like. bit of a forum crossed with myspace or something...I might even have a business plan for an online publishing company (which would deal with the radios, promotion, copyright etc) already sitting on my hard drive left over from an fyp if anyone's interested I wouldn't mind giving it a go...as a kind of missing link between the DIY approach and the full on label route...you wouldnt have to sign any contracts committing yourself to anything, just offer/accept work as it comes...I'm really really not explaining this well here now at all! If anyone's interested pm me and I'll send ye the details, haha! But like someone mentioned on the other thread, labels do like self starters, if this venture would be nothing at all more than a learning experience for all involved, or a way to keep the likes of me climbing the walls screaming bits and pieces from me thesis at passers by jut to be doing something... I still think it could be worth giving it a shot! If people would be up for it like. Any thoughts?

I really like your idea. Me and my friend have similar thoughts. A bit more focused on the promoter/venue/band and gigging side of things but still generally a kind of music co-op. Something like this could really kick-start the Irish music scene. I'd definitely be up for helping setting something like this set up if it ever gets enough momentum.

PMI

Im always up for talks and help a friend of mine does the odd talk at LIT etc.. alot of us guys on the outside do feel for ya, its a hard time

NyquistFreak

Thanks for the replies guys!

I totally agree about bands and engineers alike needing the opportunity to get out and practice their trade before trying to play with the big boys, for me, the stuff we cover in class doesnt seem real until I see in in practice... I'll never forget the day I found my friend the metal engineer lad recording a lad doing vocals who just couldnt get his head around singing with headphones on, so he had the mix blasting through big speakers for your man to sing to, and after a few attempts to get the angle juuuust right, employed the mighty power of acoustic physics 101 to make sure none of that speaker noise ever made it to the mic by crafty phase cancellation, and got a nice clean vocal...its magic and I love it! but to be fair, we need the bands as much as they need us to get away with experimenting with theories like that instead of just getting on with the by the book techniques. sure I think engineers need to build up a decent portfolio to be taken seriously too!

I was thinking about the umbrella group idea alright, it would be class if it could cover events and publishing too, give decent info on copyright law etc, be a proper resource like...but with the common interest of improving the scene for all, creating an environment for continues learning, I love the mentoring idea and all.

Dead right this would have to start small and earn its reputation, but for the effort, we might have a better music scene by the end of it, especially if we could maybe start organising a few gigs around the place with the bands and techs we collect along the way, generate a few jobs like I dont know if this would count more as social experiment than business venture, but sure tis better to be doing something than nothing and giving out about the state of the music business!

Thanks again for the positivity lads, so far this is just an idea in me head, but if I could find a few engineers first off and maybe work from there...

but first...back to study for the exams! at least its constructive procrastination haha!

Waking-Dreams

MilanPan!c wrote: »

So true.

It's funny, you and I see so many things in exactly the same way, but just reach different conclusions.

Can I ask, do you still play music?

Are you in a band?

What's the deal then?

What are they called? What do you play/sing? #

All of these long long answers, but little personal info... I can't be the only one that wants to know.

:P

I haven't played drums since I came back from living/touring in Canada with a niche genre band - this time last year. The band split-up afterwards.

Anyways,

My own thoughts on relocation are this:

The Internet is 24/7 and connects worldwide - besides, all bands have to travel no matter where they are based. Obviously, if you live in some small rural town and can't find musicians or any kind of an audience you might have to move to the nearest city in your country.

I moved with a band to Vancouver, Canada in 2008 because we just couldn't find a singer in Ireland (who wasn't already committed to other bands). But it was also just a good excuse to go on a working holiday and explore another part of the world too. There were no intentions of looking for labels or trying to get some radio play (we played a niche genre of music after all); just a fun-seeking adventure with music thrown in for good measure.

What I found was that, although we did locate a vocalist there and began playing locally, we just became integrated into the city's already saturated music scene, where every other band were also doing the same thing; record demo/album, play gigs locally, post MySpace bulletins/blogs, organise tours throughout Canada/USA, etc, etc, etc.

We had the advantage of being from Ireland which was an added twist and attracted some attention from the people living there as well as the local media who did a few write ups about how, “Irish group relocates to Vancouver!” etc, but all in all, we were just like most of the other local bands. We toured Canada the following summer and with our visas about to expire, returned to Ireland – where the band split up*

I think bands like to romanticise the aspect of leaving their country to prosper elsewhere but I don't see the logic if you already live in a big city. If you've ever lived in the kind of places such as Banff, Saskatoon, Kenora, then OK, I can see your reasons for wanting to get out and moving elsewhere but you don't need to cross any border lines or oceans.

You're not going to find a magical idealised “scene” where your music will somehow take root. But say, for arguments sake, there was some kind of Hollywood for bands. Would this “scene” make your life any easier? Not really, because you'll still be you. If your band are crap, well, you're crap, and every city has an abundance of bands that stink. But even if your band doesn't suck, you'll still need to invest in your career and figure out where your priorities are at.

In my case, living in Canada allowed us to play to a different kind of audience and tour one of the largest (geographically speaking) countries in the world, but the same number of people could have been reached through focused Internet promotions and then targeted touring in the areas of interest. I don't regret it though. It was an amazing learning experience and there were plenty of good times to balance out the bad, so I'm not in any way bitter.

* I don't want to go into much detail, but the reason for the split was because we weren't on the same page, some of us were happy with our own DIY progress, others wanted to look for a label, or bizarrely, thought we had to relocate yet again and play every place that supplied electricity “in order to sell CDs” yet neglected how they were hemorrhaging money as a result of their own “personal expenses” and other irresponsible teenage-like behaviours (which I've come to see are synonymous with the musician archetype).

---

Now, regarding the engineering aspect, I'm sympathetic to your cause because I've been there. After finishing secondary school, I went on to study sound engineering and music business in Dublin at Kylemore College and then BCFE. At the time, the idea was to get a decent education so that I might end up working with bands in the industry and/or get to play drums for a relatively successful act (hey, I was young and idealistic back then).

Although the dream of becoming a rock star drummer had been promptly dropped after secondary school, the notion of a “modest” career in the music industry felt like a more realistic ambition and was something I wanted to pursue. Upon graduating from BCFE in 2004, I discovered, as did virtually everyone else in my class, that there weren’t any real job prospects within the industry in Ireland. Nevertheless, the education I received during those formative years served me well. But by the time I did finish college, I no longer felt as though I wanted to work in the music industry (except as a musician of course). I got a job working as a technician for a cable TV company and was quite happy with that, which afforded me the means to play music and buy more equipment.

As I continued being a musician and encountered other working engineers in Ireland (some of whom had studios), their overall experiences seemed to support what I thought when I finished college. What I'd say to graduate engineers now is that with pro-sumer companies marketing equipment at musicians, who want to record themselves, you're slowly being squeezed out of the loop, at least in the eyes of musicians who think they can record themselves no problemo.

I still think a band would do well to find a great studio and pay someone to record them, get a professional product done, don't try and cut corners on it yourself because it can lead to inter-member squabbles, never being happy (because you can always change something) and in short, a big pain in the ass. If you have a proper job, 3 weeks wages times 4 band members should cover you and is worth the investement. When you go the studio route, you don't have to worry about being anybody else expect the musician, you can focus on your own instrument and nothing else. But if you're just a singer/songwriter with a guitar, you might not need the studio if you know what you're doing.

I've done both and prefer the studio route but that's me.

Anyways, my problem is that engineering nowadays looks like such hard work for little pay-off. Bands want to haggle down studios because they spent their money on beer instead and whose playing is so crap the engineer has to sound replace and quantise everything. I've worked enough crap minimum wage jobs for one lifetime. Spending 10-12 hours a day quantising some douche for the equivalent of minimum wage? And all this so that one more band or record label or investor can cut corners, put out a lame product and try to profit from it, perpetuate the cycle, over an album/demo that is probably crap anyway?

Not for me, and I appluad any engineers who can put up with that, because I just couldn't. Unfortunatley, you need to earn money in order to work on good stuff, so it's a neccesary evil, but it must wreck your head to no end.

Studioworx

Hi,

I have to say I really like what I have been reading thus far and I think you do indeed have a great idea with the co-op thing. For what it's worth, I'm a qualified sound engineer with my own project studio (Pro tools rig geared towards production and recording demo's, small projects.) I'm producing and performing my own stuff at the mo too so I'm really interested in contributing to the cause if it's something that could be got up and running...

MilanPan!c

So look, what the idea needs is a "business plan" of sorts, so that it is sustainable and fair... Then it needs a website, or at least an email address so that all the needs can matched with skills on offer.

There needs to be a well defined tit-for-tat, or it won't work...

And.

In my opinion, it needs to have clearly defined goals, such as (like Canada) government funding/agreements from media to have a defined minimum local content.



That's super advanced, but it's what a lot of places do...

Just ideas though...

miju

NyquistFreak wrote: »

I was thinking about the umbrella group idea alright, it would be class if it could cover events and publishing too, give decent info on copyright law etc, be a proper resource like...but with the common interest of improving the scene for all, creating an environment for continues learning, I love the mentoring idea and all.

For the last two years me and two others have been working on a project like this. Planning, developing and then some more planning & development to the point where all sectors of the industry will come together in a fair , sustainable and mutually profitable effort.

We're now in the very final stages before the plans are put into action (which was what my sticky in this forum was about). And late next month two years of work will come to fruition and a supprt structure that has never been in place in this country before will come into existence.

I'll be posting up a nice big thread for all boardsies soon enough though

MilanPan!c wrote: »

So look, what the idea needs is a "business plan" of sorts, so that it is sustainable and fair... Then it needs a website, or at least an email address so that all the needs can matched with skills on offer.

There needs to be a well defined tit-for-tat, or it won't work...

And.

In my opinion, it needs to have clearly defined goals, such as (like Canada) government funding/agreements from media to have a defined minimum local content.

Our project has all of this plus the all important funding to carry it luckily, so I suppose my theories will be put to the real worl test soon enough.

MilanPan!c

miju wrote: »

For the last two years me and two others have been working on a project like this. Planning, developing and then some more planning & development to the point where all sectors of the industry will come together in a fair , sustainable and mutually profitable effort.

We're now in the very final stages before the plans are put into action (which was what my sticky in this forum was about). And late next month two years of work will come to fruition and a supprt structure that has never been in place in this country before will come into existence.

I'll be posting up a nice big thread for all boardsies soon enough though



Our project has all of this plus the all important funding to carry it luckily, so I suppose my theories will be put to the real worl test soon enough.

AWESOME!

Good work you guys!

I am amazed and impressed and excited to see details!