You have to "make it" outside your own country first

Waking-Dreams

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]OK, let's have a discussion, on what often gets brought up in conversation by musicians or is even spoken like some kind of mantra for succeeding: that an original band must relocate and find an audience elsewhere in the world before their fellow countrymen will take much notice.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This seems to resonate with Irish bands the most, given that ours is such a small country and as some would agrue, is full of begrudgers (yet, envy is a universal emotional response found all over the world, even in remote African villages where they still use Black Magic to ward off the Evil Eye from neighbours).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Obviously, if a band resides in the USA they can probably make do with playing up and down every state, what with 300+ million people living there. So where does that leave the Irish in a country of 4-5 million?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do bands here feel its enivitable that they must move to another country to prosper financially? Yet, just like with Hollywood, moving to some magical place on a map doesn't equate success per se and can be like moving from a pond to an ocean. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Doesn't the Internet allow bands to see where their fanbase are living (thanks to IP mapping – which tells them where traffic is coming from onto their website), and then guage where they might do well when they choose to tour? Or would moving just allow for easier circumstances for touring and playing more frequently (we are at the edge of Europe after all). [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What bands here would consider moving, and why? Do you think it will impress a record company (if that's what you're after) or other people by demonstrating that you are willing to up sticks and leave to play music?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I've done it and have my own views on the matter but I'd like to open up the floor to others and get their opinions and thoughts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Discuss.[/FONT]

----

EDIT: By the way, before someone says it, I've heard the fable where a man looks up at the millionaire's mansion in America and says, “Someday, that'll be me in that kind of a house!” whereas in Ireland it's, “I'll smash his bleedin' windows!”, when I'm sure people get their fancy cars vandalised on the streets of America and are subjected to envy from plenty of people. I think it's a proximity effect. No one here feels envious of the faceless billionaire businessman who lives in some other country, but if someone you knew won the lottery and built a mansion a few doors down from where you were living, you might feel a twinge of envy.

So, it doesn't matter where you live, you can encounter begrudgery from those who live near you. If you happen to think Ireland is worse could you cite some evidence for this please and not just your unsubstantiated opinion.

Einstein

God topic.

The band I was with for a while, considered moving to the UK a few times.

Tbh though, it wasn't to impress anyone etc, it was to do with the fact that there's no real industry in Ireland. Radio stations don't play the music, people don't really follow live music. other countries, like the UK or Germany, have a much larger population and live music is quite the past time for some people.

More people + venues means that you music gets better exposure. So it's definitely to do about exposure I feel.

Savman

Einstein wrote: »

More people + venues means that you music gets better exposure.

On the other hand, if there's only a population of 5m in Ireland and an act can't get exposure on such a small island, surely the same act would be absolutely lost in a nation of 60m+. Kinda warped logic when you think about it.

Einstein

Savman wrote: »

On the other hand, if there's only a population of 5m in Ireland and an act can't get exposure on such a small island, surely the same act would be absolutely lost in a nation of 60m+. Kinda warped logic when you think about it.

I know,
It's kinda ironic.
S'ppose my logic would be based on the fact that 3% of the irish popultion like you, and 3% of the other population like you, thats a lot more people that buy a lot more singles that gets a lot more exposure!

A Primal Nut

I'd imagine its easier in Ireland. I know people who sold a few hundred singles and got into the charts. Then you get your song on the radio, especially if its any good, and maybe work your way up to a no.1 album or something. Once you get success in one country, like Ireland, and your music is fairly universal, Britain and other countries are more likely to take notice.

Making it in the States must be damn near impossible in comparison, although I guess you only need to be popular in one area to make money.

MilanPan!c

The Villagers...

The Script...

Heck, even Jape...

Plenty of band do as well as they would in the UK, where, by the way, the competition is much more stiff. In my opinion.

odonopenmic

I'd move tomorrow, so long as there was a plan in place. Wandering aimlessly in Ireland or elsewhere is silly.

However, what's the point in spending years trying to crack Ireland, then spending years trying to crack the UK, then years trying to crack the US. Cut out the middleman. Go west!

Any experience we've had playing overseas has always been better than here. Better crowd, more open-minded, won't be simply satisfied with whatever limited tripe is on the radio playlists, better venues, better money...

Plus I do think it's easier for a foreign band to make it - it's more interesting to a local audience.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

Edit: just thinking to say 'better crowd' without qualifying is a bit disrespectful to all the people that do come and see us - they couldn't be better. However, if you're relatively unknown to an area, I think foreign audiences are much more likely to come along and listen and give you a shot. I find that unless you bring your crowd here and you are already known, you don't get the time of day.

PMI

1st off....

Remember there are alot of bands that record music that truly shouldnt be as its toilet and expect to make it?!? and also think after writing 10 songs that the world owes them something

What is making it? money/success/fame or making a killer album you and the producer/enginner are happy with? as if the later is the one theres probably more hope for the album/songs.

If you dont have a following at your gigs, maybe its time to look at it.... and not "my space" a friend adder and you get 4000 fans no point in that as they dont come to gigs and they dont pay your bills.

Moving abroad is not the best option as you have to learn how it works there then, so your already on the back foot guys I think if you make enough noise without any management/record company they will come, although you need to have your album ready to release quality as they will pick the other band over you if theres a blemish in the mixes as they dont want to spend money on anything other than farming you around and making money off you, the days of development etc... are gone

Good luck

Einstein

I do agree that a lot of success these days comes from getting your music online. The days of being discovered in sh!tholes in Dublin are well gone

Going abroad with a plan and contacts is the way forward. Don't just jump a boat and hope ye do well. Pre-plan. Arrange a day trip to London etc, meet with management companies / promo companies etc and see if they would be interested in your music, and what they could do for you. Then build a plan and run with it.

Obviously landing in the UK and sayin "now what" aint the way to go :P

maccored

PMI wrote: »

1st off....

What is making it?

thats exactly what I was going to ask. If 'making it' means earning a half decent wage the the likes of The Walls and Horslips show you can do that without leaving the country.

PMI

Yep and only now would the script even be in the bracket of truly earning enough to change your lifestyle.... it takes years....

hit single this month you have to wait for at least 6 months for anything to come through and even then your going to pay off costs incured, so you have to be in for the long haul and not a quick buck:)

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

Yep and only now would the script even be in the bracket of truly earning enough to change your lifestyle.... it takes years....

hit single this month you have to wait for at least 6 months for anything to come through and even then your going to pay off costs incured, so you have to be in for the long haul and not a quick buck:)

Absolutely, it's a business you have to show up an run every single day.

phonarr

No one is asking the all important question here
Whether staying or not is a good move is irrelevant since I'd imagine it depends your band/attitude and what not...
The real question is should you leave?

Yes the UK is a power house at pumping successful bands
but when you consider the size of the country and Japan (which is also pretty good at getting the worlds attention) with that of other countries in the same position such as France, Austrailia and the US you have to wonder why Ireland, a first world country that speaks English (the language of Media) that has produced internationally famous bands and is a well known country internationally doesn't have a similar status.
Hell even with Northern Ireland we have the means of dipping our toes into countries media with out leaving

I believe that it's because people feel the only way to make it is to leave
Dara O'Briain lives in the UK now
the head animator of Avatar was Irish as well
we generate such talent but never keep it
I'll admit this is some times the people in charge's fault rather than the artist themselves
ex. RTÉ rejecting Father Ted

People need to stay in their home country and try develop a scene
something interesting with a local interested fanbase
and maybe even attract some main land europeans and brits to come here on a gig trip
make something worth a wikipedia article

kevin.mullally

Its all well and good to say stay and try and make it here in Ireland but it also comes down to what sort of music you play. It might be ok so bands like the Script to stay in Ireland and gain a following but thats because that sort of music is more popular then the likes of what I like to play which is metal. Theres a crap metal scene in Ireland, you wouldnt have a hope of getting on the radio or into any major festivals compared to bands of the more mainstream music genres. The only option therefore is to go to a country where the type of music you play has a decent scene and try make it there.

miju

Oh dear this is such a topic for such a big rant, it is quite possible to make it here in Ireland.

After all I'd be of the opinion that if you can't make it and get your business practices / PR promotion and generally your music industry machine running in Ireland which has a very small industry / music consuming public which totals just over 0.50% of the entire music market Worldwide then what chance have you in the likes of the UK or Germany which are 6.4% and 9.1% of the entire worldwide market respectively. See attached chart for more of an idea of market sizes.

I've seen plenty of bands who say "you have to move country" / "nothing here in Ireland" but the cold truth of the matter is they haven't worked / looked hard enough and the above phrases are a simple cop out for their lack of work / lack of talent.You only have to look at the "Want a Record Deal" thread and bands posting up all sorts. In all seriousness if anyone thinks they are going to get anything like that from a boards thread they are in lala land.


There are SOOO many ways for bands to find out about available labels / publishers and to approach them correctly with the actual kind of music they are looking for (be it metal or pop music) but 99% of the bands couldn't be arsed truth be told. Like kevin.mullaly above saying there is no real metal scene in Ireland theres a ****load of metal fans so that means they should be crying out for Irish talent OR the opportunity exists to create a metal scene?????
This rant will continue later be warned LOL

Bill_Le_Viking

Just take the music anywhere that people are willing to listen, and if you really are good at what you do, and appeal to the right audience then you'll do alright.

Depends on what ya mean by make it tho, some people just want a few people to listen and they're happy. Others want to be big and rich and famous.

Miju, irish metal? Glyder

miju

Bill_Le_Viking wrote: »

Miju, irish metal? Glyder

I wasn't commenting about the metal scene I was merely responding to anothers post on the metal scene.

phonarr

kevin.mullally wrote: »

Theres a crap metal scene in Ireland,

you kidding?
www.moshspace.com
http://www.metalireland.com/
http://www.primordialweb.com/
each more metal than the last

kevin.mullally wrote: »

you wouldnt have a hope of getting on the radio or into any major festivals compared to bands of the more mainstream music genres.

well yeah that's why mainstream is mainstream
If an irish metal band plays (lets say oxegen) they'd probably get called sell outs
A lot of metal fans like that their favorite bands aren't on the radio or that they don't play oxegen or electric picnic and that they only play hellfest in paris or whatever

PMI

miju wrote: »

Oh dear this is such a topic for such a big rant, it is quite possible to make it here in Ireland.

After all I'd be of the opinion that if you can't make it and get your business practices / PR promotion and generally your music industry machine running in Ireland which has a very small industry / music consuming public which totals just over 0.50% of the entire music market Worldwide then what chance have you in the likes of the UK or Germany which are 6.4% and 9.1% of the entire worldwide market respectively. See attached chart for more of an idea of market sizes.

I've seen plenty of bands who say "you have to move country" / "nothing here in Ireland" but the cold truth of the matter is they haven't worked / looked hard enough and the above phrases are a simple cop out for their lack of work / lack of talent.You only have to look at the "Want a Record Deal" thread and bands posting up all sorts. In all seriousness if anyone thinks they are going to get anything like that from a boards thread they are in lala land.


There are SOOO many ways for bands to find out about available labels / publishers and to approach them correctly with the actual kind of music they are looking for (be it metal or pop music) but 99% of the bands couldn't be arsed truth be told. Like kevin.mullaly above saying there is no real metal scene in Ireland theres a ****load of metal fans so that means they should be crying out for Irish talent OR the opportunity exists to create a metal scene?????
This rant will continue later be warned LOL

Listen and learn this guy is spot on !!!!

as I said in my 1st post make sure your own band doesnt fall into that "hey we wrote 10 songs now the world owes us" ha

I cant think of anywhere I would rather be than here... english speaking, small country with access to charts and radio via under 1k of sales in a good week ?!?

I did have a big post but it didnt post, modem died and i cant be arsed to retype might do later....

kevin.mullally

phonarr wrote: »

well yeah that's why mainstream is mainstream
If an irish metal band plays (lets say oxegen) they'd probably get called sell outs
A lot of metal fans like that their favorite bands aren't on the radio or that they don't play oxegen or electric picnic and that they only play hellfest in paris or whatever

Why would anyone like that their favourite bands dont play near them?

Gang of Gin

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]OK, let's have a discussion, on what often gets brought up in conversation by musicians or is even spoken like some kind of mantra for succeeding: that an original band must relocate and find an audience elsewhere in the world before their fellow countrymen will take much notice.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This seems to resonate with Irish bands the most, given that ours is such a small country and as some would agrue, is full of begrudgers (yet, envy is a universal emotional response found all over the world, even in remote African villages where they still use Black Magic to ward off the Evil Eye from neighbours).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Obviously, if a band resides in the USA they can probably make do with playing up and down every state, what with 300+ million people living there. So where does that leave the Irish in a country of 4-5 million?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do bands here feel its enivitable that they must move to another country to prosper financially? Yet, just like with Hollywood, moving to some magical place on a map doesn't equate success per se and can be like moving from a pond to an ocean. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Doesn't the Internet allow bands to see where their fanbase are living (thanks to IP mapping – which tells them where traffic is coming from onto their website), and then guage where they might do well when they choose to tour? Or would moving just allow for easier circumstances for touring and playing more frequently (we are at the edge of Europe after all). [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What bands here would consider moving, and why? Do you think it will impress a record company (if that's what you're after) or other people by demonstrating that you are willing to up sticks and leave to play music?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I've done it and have my own views on the matter but I'd like to open up the floor to others and get their opinions and thoughts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Discuss.[/FONT]

----

EDIT: By the way, before someone says it, I've heard the fable where a man looks up at the millionaire's mansion in America and says, “Someday, that'll be me in that kind of a house!” whereas in Ireland it's, “I'll smash his bleedin' windows!”, when I'm sure people get their fancy cars vandalised on the streets of America and are subjected to envy from plenty of people. I think it's a proximity effect. No one here feels envious of the faceless billionaire businessman who lives in some other country, but if someone you knew won the lottery and built a mansion a few doors down from where you were living, you might feel a twinge of envy.

So, it doesn't matter where you live, you can encounter begrudgery from those who live near you. If you happen to think Ireland is worse could you cite some evidence for this please and not just your unsubstantiated opinion.

Yeah, the country is small in a relative sense in proportion to successful bands in bigger countries, namely the UK and USA, but the begrudgery thing is a bit of a cop out.

Irish bands, the majority of, just are not that good at all. Don't pass this off as begrudgery.

Waking-Dreams

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Irish bands, the majority of, just are not that good at all. Don't pass this off as begrudgery.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That is kind of my point. That those who bring up the begrudgery argument seem to play down its frequency in every other culture and society, and try to claim it's an Irish phenomenon.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In response to those who claim there's a crap music scene here, or that it's limited; have you ever set foot in some of the most rural parts of other countries? I've driven through some one-horse towns in my time, places where live music probably means some of the locals sitting around on pub stools and playing some traditional tunes for each other and their friends. Ireland isn't that bad for such a small country with a very favourable international profile; we seem to be loved abroad.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

I've seen plenty of bands who say “you have to move country” / “nothing here in Ireland” but the cold truth of the matter is they haven't worked / looked hard enough and the above phrases are a simple cop out for their lack of work / lack of talent.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Spot on. The whole “scene sucks” mantra has been overplayed, and I've heard it used to describe almost everywhere. There will always be something to dislike about wherever you end up. Whether it's that the competition is too rife, or that there's not enough avenues for exposure. Everybody wants a “scene” but nobody wants to invest money or do the work it takes to create that “scene” - things that actually require stepping outside their comfort zone. People who move somewhere expecting to find a “scene” usually want someone else to do all the work and front the money too. They want somebody else to figure out what to do, for them. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
It just seems that the whole leaving Ireland in order to “make it” is so ingrained into our culture, even among people who don't play music. I know we have a long history of emigration but we're not living in the dark ages now. Yet, I've had so many conversations with people and when they learned I played music they would often ask was I leaving the country at some stage? They seemed to believe that no local bands here would have a hope of doing well in this country, “too many begrudgers.” I wonder where this non-musician mindset comes from.[/FONT]

MilanPan!c

Couldn't agree more; I've been in bands in the US/UK and Ireland.

Ireland is lucky.

But it can also be a place where people feel a bit overshadowed and incapable of breaking out.

Think how often you (at least I) have heard the Irish don't go for starting small businesses... And yet... There's no real reason.

An for all practical purposes starting a band is the exact same thing.

There's no reason for the state of the scene; people could easily change it with a bit of cooperation and quality control, but will it ever happen?

Who knows?

If everyone was a bit more honest and open to cooperation things could change. Better bands would emerge, more people would care and more money would be made.


And hey, guess what, if those things happened, threads like this would seem redundant.

miju

PMI wrote: »

I cant think of anywhere I would rather be than here... english speaking, small country with access to charts and radio via under 1k of sales in a good

Just to add tt's been a long time since I've seen an independant band break into the top 10 charts in this country.

And the very frightening thing which will show you the standard of "effort" being put in by bands is that the number of sales required to break into the top 10 is actually pathetically small and we're talking around the 250 MP3 sales mark here.

It sounds harsh but a band is deluding themselves that they can make it in another country if they can't even manage 250 mp3 sales in a week. If anyone would like an example of sales figures then send me a PM (I'm not publicly posting sales data) and it will probably open your eyes alot as to whats actually achieveable if you put in the effort. Including plenty of radio airplay that goes with getting high in the charts providing you've the cop on to give the stations your release (and believe it or not I've seen bands do all the work and forget to service radio stations with releases leaving them with no momentum for all their work).

Waking-Dreams

Why would anyone like that their favourite bands dont play near them?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if you lived in the USA, fans can still find themselves driving for 6 hours to see a band, or having to get a plane somewhere because the band didn't play every single area. It's basic touring economics.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Regarding the quality of the scene and bands helping one another out:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Co-operation is all well and good, and altruism does indeed exist but I think we forget how competitive we can be as a species. Self-interest is always at play, and if getting one over your neighbour means they have to “lose” in order for you to “win”, and increase your chances of success, mating options and passing on your genes, we will unconsciously do this. This sounds crazy you might say but remember, we are not actually designed for this current version of the modern world. Although we can be quite sophisticated, logical and articulate, we carry around with us the genetic baggage of our ancient ancestors who dwelled in a more primitive and hostile enviornment. While a simple explanation for every facet of human nature would be a daunting task at best, most experts firmly agree that it is this inherited baggage which is the root cause of our somewhat irrational, unpredictable and impulsive behaviours. [/FONT]

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That was kind of my point. That those who bring up the begrudgery argument seem to omit its frequency in every other culture and society, and claim it's an Irish phenomenon.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In response to those who claim there's a crap music scene here, or that it's limited; have you ever set foot in some of the most rural parts of other countries? I've driven through some one-horse towns in my time, places where live music probably means some of the locals sitting around on pub stools and playing some traditional tunes for each other and their friends. Ireland isn't that bad for such a small country with a very favourable international profile; we seem to be loved abroad.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Spot on. The whole “scene sucks” mantra has been overplayed, and I've heard it used to describe almost everywhere. There will always be something to dislike about wherever you end up. Whether it's that the competition is too rife, or that there's not enough avenues for exposure. Everybody wants a “scene” but nobody wants to invest money or do the work it takes to create that “scene” - things that actually require stepping outside their comfort zone. People who move somewhere expecting to find a “scene” usually want someone else to do all the work and front the money too. They want somebody else to figure out what to do, for them. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
It just seems that the whole leaving Ireland in order to “make it” is so ingrained into our culture, even among people who don't even play music. I know we have a long history of emigration but we're not living in the dark ages now. Yet, I've had so many conversations with people and when they learned I played music they would often ask was I leaving the country at some stage? They seemed to believe that no local bands here would have a hope of doing well in this country, “too many begrudgers.” I wonder where this non-musician mindset comes from.[/FONT]

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if you lived in the USA, fans can still find themselves driving for 6 hours to see a band, or having to get a plane somewhere because the band didn't play every single area. It's basic touring economics.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Regarding the quality of the scene and bands helping one another out:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Co-operation is all well and good, and altruism does indeed exist but I think we forget how competitive we can be as a species. Self-interest is always at play, and if getting one over your neighbour means they have to “lose” in order for you to “win”, and increase your chances of success, mating options and passing on your genes, we will unconsciously do this. This sounds crazy you might say but remember, we are not actually designed for this current version of the modern world. Although we can be quite sophisticated, logical and articulate, we carry around with us the genetic baggage of our ancient ancestors who dwelled in a more primitive and hostile enviornment. While a simple explanation for every facet of human nature would be a daunting task at best, most experts firmly agree that it is this inherited baggage which is the root cause of our somewhat irrational, unpredictable and impulsive behaviours. [/FONT]

To be clear:

I'm not talking about altruism, nor do I believe in it.

I'm talking about working together in self-interest.

That happens in MANY US scenes. And many bands benefit.

I'm no hippy. I'm someone that KNOWS that businesses can cooperate to suceed.

And he'll yea about distances in the US; I regularly drove 2 hours to Memphis and 6 hours to Dallas to see bands. And so did my friends.

Nature of the flipping beast.

Waking-Dreams

I'm talking about working together in self-interest.

I know what you mean. I happen to think most bands (people even) can't stand to see others doing well, unless they too are also doing well. So, self-interest yes, but we all have to be winners, and that just can't work.

Duffman86

EMMMMM lads U2 didn hav t go all that far they done a good job of making it here

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I know what you mean. I happen to think most bands (people even) can't stand to see others doing well, unless they too are also doing well. So, self-interest yes, but we all have to be winners, and that just can't work.

Well, two bands on the same label are obviously both competing and cooperating.

For example.

And athletes practice together, make each other stronger, then compete.

Making all bands better and more sucessful makes all bands better and more successful.

Think of it like this, right now Irish bands feel like there's a lot of begrudgerey. An guess what that leads to.. More begrudgery

if instead, Irish band felt like the scene was supportive and produced success, guess what, people would cooperate more and there'd be more success.

So, not everyone gets famous, obviously, but more bands are better and have more opportunity.

And if more bands are successful the industry will make more bands successful.

They're followers and they want to be part of success... You've said that.

So success brings more sucess.

Other bands doing well HELPS your band.

It's not wishful thinking, it reflects cynical business practices.

PMI

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

Most bands I know (independants) hit 13 at most and fell out as they forgot that the following week you get 50% of the previous week

so 900 got the last guys there, and then week 2 started on 450 and sold about a hundred so droped off the scale

Its easy to chart but you need to hold it to have any chance of getting your band around, a single weeks airplay is not enough as people will be at work or not in car at that time listening to radio so 2 weeks or above is where you see real difference etc.. etc..

And by the way great posts lads, good to have a discussion for once

phonarr

kevin.mullally wrote: »

Why would anyone like that their favourite bands dont play near them?

it's a holiday

no band goes straight to a festival anyway

just go to fibbers
If there isn't a band playing live
they are in the smoking area, drinking

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

Most bands I know (independants) hit 13 at most and fell out as they forgot that the following week you get 50% of the previous week

so 900 got the last guys there, and then week 2 started on 450 and sold about a hundred so droped off the scale

Its easy to chart but you need to hold it to have any chance of getting your band around, a single weeks airplay is not enough as people will be at work or not in car at that time listening to radio so 2 weeks or above is where you see real difference etc.. etc..

And by the way great posts lads, good to have a discussion for once

This is one of the main reasons why trying to do this **** on yer own is so impossible.

If you want real consistent airplay you need the money and connections labels have... or just 1/100,000 luck.

maccored

a band I was in charted at 18, but that was a month of selling at least a few hundred a week. Charting isnt really worth the hassle as all we got out of it was whatever we made on the sales (which wasnt alot). not much publicity.

PMI wrote: »

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

Most bands I know (independants) hit 13 at most and fell out as they forgot that the following week you get 50% of the previous week

so 900 got the last guys there, and then week 2 started on 450 and sold about a hundred so droped off the scale

Its easy to chart but you need to hold it to have any chance of getting your band around, a single weeks airplay is not enough as people will be at work or not in car at that time listening to radio so 2 weeks or above is where you see real difference etc.. etc..

And by the way great posts lads, good to have a discussion for once

PMI

MilanPan!c wrote: »

This is one of the main reasons why trying to do this **** on yer own is so impossible.

If you want real consistent airplay you need the money and connections labels have... or just 1/100,000 luck.

Nothing is impossible.... whos gonna buy it?

If you have 3-5000 real fans that follow you, you might have a chance if you just accepted anyone and added anyone on my space to look cool you will probably die a death.

NEVER use a friend adder let the truth be shown, as your only cheating yourself the other way

Also charting high the radio stations have to play you as you then make the official play list so money isnt always the way to go....

Its the song / following / PR

Waking-Dreams

Well, two bands on the same label are obviously both competing and cooperating.

For example.

And athletes practice together, make each other stronger, then compete.

Music isn't a competitive sport, although the way bands behave, you'd swear they thought it was. Only, good music isn't really quantifiable, whereas if you are the fastest/strongest athlete, that's actually measurable – I suppose largest CD sales or biggest audience attendances would be used in the case of bands as a yard stick, but neither accounts for people's perception of what is “good” when it comes to their taste, for example, Jedward might sell X number of CD singles; doesn't mean everyone will agree they are “good”.

Anyways, here's one scenario which relates to bands who all reside in the same area and make up a “scene”, and profess their support for co-operation for the benefit of everyone.

Say you work at a call centre, along with 40 other people who do the same job as you. One day, by accident an email intended for the payroll dept. gets sent to everyone at the company which contains a list of everyone's salary. Now, you might be unsurprised to see that the bosses and upper-management earn more than you but then you notice how all of your “equal” co-workers get slightly more money than you. Wide-eyed, you stare in disbelief at the email, wondering how or why they're getting paid more than you when all of you do the exact same job; in fact some of them tend to goof-off on the job and haven't been with the company as long as you have, yet they're getting paid more.

Technically speaking, you're all on the same team (working for the company) and should be supportive of each other and work together because it benefits the company at the end of the day and hence, ensures you all get to make your money but inside, you just can't stand to see others have an unfair advantage over you. As humans, we don't like to see others around us have any kind of advantage over us. We accept it alright, but we don't particularly like it.

This is an engineered example of course, but in the case of bands, you can see how this translates across music scenes. Even if a band has an advantage over other bands it might be because they're simply “better” at what they do, but the other bands won't always like this. They want to uphold some kind of warped utopia where everyone does well, in equal measures; a fantasy, or rather, that they're in the upper echelons above some others. I think this is why they can be uncooperative in subtle ways depending on their own popularity and success.

Another thing is that audience and author are now one. More people are playing in bands than ever, so members of the audience at one gig are on stage at another. With everyone broadcasting themselves, it can make for a much more harder time when bands try and find fans, because those fans are also looking for fans of their own. Self-interest is always at work and so many conversations among punters at gigs often end with a, "you should check us out on myspace".

miju

PMI wrote: »

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

looking at last weeks Chart Track sales data I'd disagree with you. But agree with the rest of your points in the post.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Self-interest is always at work and so many conversations among punters at gigs often end with a, "you should check us out on myspace".

So true.

It's funny, you and I see so many things in exactly the same way, but just reach different conclusions.

Can I ask, do you still play music?

Are you in a band?

What's the deal then?

What are they called? What do you play/sing? #

All of these long long answers, but little personal info... I can't be the only one that wants to know.

:P

PMI

miju wrote: »

looking at last weeks Chart Track sales data I'd disagree with you. But agree with the rest of your points in the post.

Cheers, yeah it changes as you know every week some weeks a real low count will get ya in and then around other months 2k wont even make a dent usually late Nov / December....

My post was just guys I know and what they had to do...

miju

PMI wrote: »

Cheers, yeah it changes as you know every week some weeks a real low count will get ya in and then around other months 2k wont even make a dent usually late Nov / December....

My post was just guys I know and what they had to do...

Indeed sales flucuate each week , especially has they dont record all physical sales.But point is if a band gets a slow week they have every opportunity.

PMI

Very true will put it all to the test next month and let you all know

NyquistFreak

@ MilanPan!c and Waking Dreams: I've been following yer back and forth there now for a few days between this and another thread, and I like ye're notions...

I'm not a performing musician now at all, coming at it from the engineering/production end (I play guitar, piano and sing to myself all the time but if there's so much as a neighbour at home next door forget about it like, performance is just not my thing at all at all!) But you've both got me thinking more about a co-operative idea of getting artists and engineers working together to the benefit of the country's music scene in general...

It was pointed out on the other thread (something about labels and what use they are) that musicians here seem to think its either a completely DIY job or label based (expensive) endeavour to get any sort of decent recordings, airplay, gigs whatever...I dont think anyone sees the middle ground at all so for the record, a few statistics:

This year in Limerick alone: 30 people graduate with a level 7 from LITs Music Tech & production course, 20 with the level 8, 30 from the UL's degree in music media and performance, and another 20 ish from the masters music tech....plus all the lads from tralee, maynooth, csn, pulse, ballyfermot etc etc...actually one of the best metal engineers I know came out of the video and sound course in LIT actually, and has a savage reputation round these here parts for his work, so you could take them into consideration too...

add this to all of next year's graduates, plus the year's after that...with the limerick degree ones anyway this will be the first year of graduates, so ya, times definitely are a-changing!

A nice majority of the four class groups in my college anyway are mature students who were out working in sound/ did the city & guilds/fetac/betec courses before starting, so thats a lot of serious people..a lot of them also have some nice set ups already at home paid for by the day job, plus a background in studio design so the space would be acoustically proper, what they will offer is not the same kind of standard as your traditional bedroom studio at all at all...

We're all faced with the prospect of having been highly educated in the area without much of an outlet once we finish our final exams (without having to leave the country for it like the OP questions), we know the state of the country at the moment, and we will take whatever job we get to pay the bills... literally beggars cant be choosers in this day and age, but what I'm getting at is that there will, over the next five years be a huge influx of people who really know what they're doing, crying out for a creative outlet to put their skills to work.

In much the same way any musician needs to pick up their instrument every now and then to feel whole, we will seek out projects to work on just to be doing something in the area, not all of us will even look to be paid for our participation in these projects, depending on personal circumstance (although obviously being paid would be better, but if given the option between working on a project that artistically resonates with me for nothing, or not having anything to work on at all...i know which I'd choose lets just say that much) It's our creative outlet the same as music is for a musician, or art for the lads from the art college, its not purely for making money, and in that sense.....

I'd love to set up some sort of co-op between musicians looking for engineers and vice versa, where it'd be up to the people involved to negotiate their terms themselves between them of course, but to just advertise that we're there, what we do, and are up for a bit of collaboration....to help artists not only find a good engineer and for engineers to find artists, but one that suits their style like. bit of a forum crossed with myspace or something...I might even have a business plan for an online publishing company (which would deal with the radios, promotion, copyright etc) already sitting on my hard drive left over from an fyp if anyone's interested I wouldn't mind giving it a go...as a kind of missing link between the DIY approach and the full on label route...you wouldnt have to sign any contracts committing yourself to anything, just offer/accept work as it comes...I'm really really not explaining this well here now at all! If anyone's interested pm me and I'll send ye the details, haha! But like someone mentioned on the other thread, labels do like self starters, if this venture would be nothing at all more than a learning experience for all involved, or a way to keep the likes of me climbing the walls screaming bits and pieces from me thesis at passers by jut to be doing something... I still think it could be worth giving it a shot! If people would be up for it like. Any thoughts?

MilanPan!c

NyquistFreak wrote: »

@ MilanPan!c and Waking Dreams: I've been following yer back and forth there now for a few days between this and another thread, and I like ye're notions...

---

I'd love to set up some sort of co-op between musicians looking for engineers and vice versa, where it'd be up to the people involved to negotiate their terms themselves between them of course, but to just advertise that we're there, what we do, and are up for a bit of collaboration....to help artists not only find a good engineer and for engineers to find artists, but one that suits their style like. bit of a forum crossed with myspace or something...I might even have a business plan for an online publishing company (which would deal with the radios, promotion, copyright etc) already sitting on my hard drive left over from an fyp if anyone's interested I wouldn't mind giving it a go...as a kind of missing link between the DIY approach and the full on label route...you wouldnt have to sign any contracts committing yourself to anything, just offer/accept work as it comes...I'm really really not explaining this well here now at all! If anyone's interested pm me and I'll send ye the details, haha! But like someone mentioned on the other thread, labels do like self starters, if this venture would be nothing at all more than a learning experience for all involved, or a way to keep the likes of me climbing the walls screaming bits and pieces from me thesis at passers by jut to be doing something... I still think it could be worth giving it a shot! If people would be up for it like. Any thoughts?

First, thanks for the kind words!

:P

More importantly, I REALLY think you've got a GREAT idea.

What would make it work even more is if there was an umbrella organization that could do a bit of bartering with engineers/musicians so that more successful ones would mentor up-and-comers.

And then.

Up and comers could access the org resources (other musicians, recording, promotion even) and in exchange they would agree to "volunteer" their time back into the org.

So basically an entire volunteer organisation that benefited everybody.

PMI

Guys I know the feeling but I dont think it will be anything other than another forum, the big boys dont hang out on the net, their working and they're the guys you need.

Im lucky enough to of grown up in a different time, I started in London when I was 17 in a studio 2 roads away from abbey road and I got to work with some big assed producers as an assistant engineer and this is when producers were PRODUCERS not some dude with reaper on a PC one of which mc Laren died a few weeks ago

I finally got my own residential studio Westlake Lodge in 2009 and took a guy from LIT as a kinda assistant to the point where I hoped he would take over as I dont have time because of the band.

You can make it in this Biz but you have to be different and Funkin good at what you do, not a text book clone, which alot of uni guys are.....

you have to take the risk in order to create the bigger picture, and whatever you do, try not to think about it to much as the more your think about something the less inclined you will be to follow it through

Rancidmaniac13

NyquistFreak wrote: »

@ MilanPan!c and Waking Dreams: I've been following yer back and forth there now for a few days between this and another thread, and I like ye're notions...

I'm not a performing musician now at all, coming at it from the engineering/production end (I play guitar, piano and sing to myself all the time but if there's so much as a neighbour at home next door forget about it like, performance is just not my thing at all at all!) But you've both got me thinking more about a co-operative idea of getting artists and engineers working together to the benefit of the country's music scene in general...

It was pointed out on the other thread (something about labels and what use they are) that musicians here seem to think its either a completely DIY job or label based (expensive) endeavour to get any sort of decent recordings, airplay, gigs whatever...I dont think anyone sees the middle ground at all so for the record, a few statistics:

This year in Limerick alone: 30 people graduate with a level 7 from LITs Music Tech & production course, 20 with the level 8, 30 from the UL's degree in music media and performance, and another 20 ish from the masters music tech....plus all the lads from tralee, maynooth, csn, pulse, ballyfermot etc etc...actually one of the best metal engineers I know came out of the video and sound course in LIT actually, and has a savage reputation round these here parts for his work, so you could take them into consideration too...

add this to all of next year's graduates, plus the year's after that...with the limerick degree ones anyway this will be the first year of graduates, so ya, times definitely are a-changing!

A nice majority of the four class groups in my college anyway are mature students who were out working in sound/ did the city & guilds/fetac/betec courses before starting, so thats a lot of serious people..a lot of them also have some nice set ups already at home paid for by the day job, plus a background in studio design so the space would be acoustically proper, what they will offer is not the same kind of standard as your traditional bedroom studio at all at all...

We're all faced with the prospect of having been highly educated in the area without much of an outlet once we finish our final exams (without having to leave the country for it like the OP questions), we know the state of the country at the moment, and we will take whatever job we get to pay the bills... literally beggars cant be choosers in this day and age, but what I'm getting at is that there will, over the next five years be a huge influx of people who really know what they're doing, crying out for a creative outlet to put their skills to work.

In much the same way any musician needs to pick up their instrument every now and then to feel whole, we will seek out projects to work on just to be doing something in the area, not all of us will even look to be paid for our participation in these projects, depending on personal circumstance (although obviously being paid would be better, but if given the option between working on a project that artistically resonates with me for nothing, or not having anything to work on at all...i know which I'd choose lets just say that much) It's our creative outlet the same as music is for a musician, or art for the lads from the art college, its not purely for making money, and in that sense.....

I'd love to set up some sort of co-op between musicians looking for engineers and vice versa, where it'd be up to the people involved to negotiate their terms themselves between them of course, but to just advertise that we're there, what we do, and are up for a bit of collaboration....to help artists not only find a good engineer and for engineers to find artists, but one that suits their style like. bit of a forum crossed with myspace or something...I might even have a business plan for an online publishing company (which would deal with the radios, promotion, copyright etc) already sitting on my hard drive left over from an fyp if anyone's interested I wouldn't mind giving it a go...as a kind of missing link between the DIY approach and the full on label route...you wouldnt have to sign any contracts committing yourself to anything, just offer/accept work as it comes...I'm really really not explaining this well here now at all! If anyone's interested pm me and I'll send ye the details, haha! But like someone mentioned on the other thread, labels do like self starters, if this venture would be nothing at all more than a learning experience for all involved, or a way to keep the likes of me climbing the walls screaming bits and pieces from me thesis at passers by jut to be doing something... I still think it could be worth giving it a shot! If people would be up for it like. Any thoughts?

I really like your idea. Me and my friend have similar thoughts. A bit more focused on the promoter/venue/band and gigging side of things but still generally a kind of music co-op. Something like this could really kick-start the Irish music scene. I'd definitely be up for helping setting something like this set up if it ever gets enough momentum.

PMI

Im always up for talks and help a friend of mine does the odd talk at LIT etc.. alot of us guys on the outside do feel for ya, its a hard time

NyquistFreak

Thanks for the replies guys!

I totally agree about bands and engineers alike needing the opportunity to get out and practice their trade before trying to play with the big boys, for me, the stuff we cover in class doesnt seem real until I see in in practice... I'll never forget the day I found my friend the metal engineer lad recording a lad doing vocals who just couldnt get his head around singing with headphones on, so he had the mix blasting through big speakers for your man to sing to, and after a few attempts to get the angle juuuust right, employed the mighty power of acoustic physics 101 to make sure none of that speaker noise ever made it to the mic by crafty phase cancellation, and got a nice clean vocal...its magic and I love it! but to be fair, we need the bands as much as they need us to get away with experimenting with theories like that instead of just getting on with the by the book techniques. sure I think engineers need to build up a decent portfolio to be taken seriously too!

I was thinking about the umbrella group idea alright, it would be class if it could cover events and publishing too, give decent info on copyright law etc, be a proper resource like...but with the common interest of improving the scene for all, creating an environment for continues learning, I love the mentoring idea and all.

Dead right this would have to start small and earn its reputation, but for the effort, we might have a better music scene by the end of it, especially if we could maybe start organising a few gigs around the place with the bands and techs we collect along the way, generate a few jobs like I dont know if this would count more as social experiment than business venture, but sure tis better to be doing something than nothing and giving out about the state of the music business!

Thanks again for the positivity lads, so far this is just an idea in me head, but if I could find a few engineers first off and maybe work from there...

but first...back to study for the exams! at least its constructive procrastination haha!

Waking-Dreams

MilanPan!c wrote: »

So true.

It's funny, you and I see so many things in exactly the same way, but just reach different conclusions.

Can I ask, do you still play music?

Are you in a band?

What's the deal then?

What are they called? What do you play/sing? #

All of these long long answers, but little personal info... I can't be the only one that wants to know.

:P

I haven't played drums since I came back from living/touring in Canada with a niche genre band - this time last year. The band split-up afterwards.

Anyways,

My own thoughts on relocation are this:

The Internet is 24/7 and connects worldwide - besides, all bands have to travel no matter where they are based. Obviously, if you live in some small rural town and can't find musicians or any kind of an audience you might have to move to the nearest city in your country.

I moved with a band to Vancouver, Canada in 2008 because we just couldn't find a singer in Ireland (who wasn't already committed to other bands). But it was also just a good excuse to go on a working holiday and explore another part of the world too. There were no intentions of looking for labels or trying to get some radio play (we played a niche genre of music after all); just a fun-seeking adventure with music thrown in for good measure.

What I found was that, although we did locate a vocalist there and began playing locally, we just became integrated into the city's already saturated music scene, where every other band were also doing the same thing; record demo/album, play gigs locally, post MySpace bulletins/blogs, organise tours throughout Canada/USA, etc, etc, etc.

We had the advantage of being from Ireland which was an added twist and attracted some attention from the people living there as well as the local media who did a few write ups about how, “Irish group relocates to Vancouver!” etc, but all in all, we were just like most of the other local bands. We toured Canada the following summer and with our visas about to expire, returned to Ireland – where the band split up*

I think bands like to romanticise the aspect of leaving their country to prosper elsewhere but I don't see the logic if you already live in a big city. If you've ever lived in the kind of places such as Banff, Saskatoon, Kenora, then OK, I can see your reasons for wanting to get out and moving elsewhere but you don't need to cross any border lines or oceans.

You're not going to find a magical idealised “scene” where your music will somehow take root. But say, for arguments sake, there was some kind of Hollywood for bands. Would this “scene” make your life any easier? Not really, because you'll still be you. If your band are crap, well, you're crap, and every city has an abundance of bands that stink. But even if your band doesn't suck, you'll still need to invest in your career and figure out where your priorities are at.

In my case, living in Canada allowed us to play to a different kind of audience and tour one of the largest (geographically speaking) countries in the world, but the same number of people could have been reached through focused Internet promotions and then targeted touring in the areas of interest. I don't regret it though. It was an amazing learning experience and there were plenty of good times to balance out the bad, so I'm not in any way bitter.

* I don't want to go into much detail, but the reason for the split was because we weren't on the same page, some of us were happy with our own DIY progress, others wanted to look for a label, or bizarrely, thought we had to relocate yet again and play every place that supplied electricity “in order to sell CDs” yet neglected how they were hemorrhaging money as a result of their own “personal expenses” and other irresponsible teenage-like behaviours (which I've come to see are synonymous with the musician archetype).

---

Now, regarding the engineering aspect, I'm sympathetic to your cause because I've been there. After finishing secondary school, I went on to study sound engineering and music business in Dublin at Kylemore College and then BCFE. At the time, the idea was to get a decent education so that I might end up working with bands in the industry and/or get to play drums for a relatively successful act (hey, I was young and idealistic back then).

Although the dream of becoming a rock star drummer had been promptly dropped after secondary school, the notion of a “modest” career in the music industry felt like a more realistic ambition and was something I wanted to pursue. Upon graduating from BCFE in 2004, I discovered, as did virtually everyone else in my class, that there weren’t any real job prospects within the industry in Ireland. Nevertheless, the education I received during those formative years served me well. But by the time I did finish college, I no longer felt as though I wanted to work in the music industry (except as a musician of course). I got a job working as a technician for a cable TV company and was quite happy with that, which afforded me the means to play music and buy more equipment.

As I continued being a musician and encountered other working engineers in Ireland (some of whom had studios), their overall experiences seemed to support what I thought when I finished college. What I'd say to graduate engineers now is that with pro-sumer companies marketing equipment at musicians, who want to record themselves, you're slowly being squeezed out of the loop, at least in the eyes of musicians who think they can record themselves no problemo.

I still think a band would do well to find a great studio and pay someone to record them, get a professional product done, don't try and cut corners on it yourself because it can lead to inter-member squabbles, never being happy (because you can always change something) and in short, a big pain in the ass. If you have a proper job, 3 weeks wages times 4 band members should cover you and is worth the investement. When you go the studio route, you don't have to worry about being anybody else expect the musician, you can focus on your own instrument and nothing else. But if you're just a singer/songwriter with a guitar, you might not need the studio if you know what you're doing.

I've done both and prefer the studio route but that's me.

Anyways, my problem is that engineering nowadays looks like such hard work for little pay-off. Bands want to haggle down studios because they spent their money on beer instead and whose playing is so crap the engineer has to sound replace and quantise everything. I've worked enough crap minimum wage jobs for one lifetime. Spending 10-12 hours a day quantising some douche for the equivalent of minimum wage? And all this so that one more band or record label or investor can cut corners, put out a lame product and try to profit from it, perpetuate the cycle, over an album/demo that is probably crap anyway?

Not for me, and I appluad any engineers who can put up with that, because I just couldn't. Unfortunatley, you need to earn money in order to work on good stuff, so it's a neccesary evil, but it must wreck your head to no end.

Studioworx

Hi,

I have to say I really like what I have been reading thus far and I think you do indeed have a great idea with the co-op thing. For what it's worth, I'm a qualified sound engineer with my own project studio (Pro tools rig geared towards production and recording demo's, small projects.) I'm producing and performing my own stuff at the mo too so I'm really interested in contributing to the cause if it's something that could be got up and running...

MilanPan!c

So look, what the idea needs is a "business plan" of sorts, so that it is sustainable and fair... Then it needs a website, or at least an email address so that all the needs can matched with skills on offer.

There needs to be a well defined tit-for-tat, or it won't work...

And.

In my opinion, it needs to have clearly defined goals, such as (like Canada) government funding/agreements from media to have a defined minimum local content.



That's super advanced, but it's what a lot of places do...

Just ideas though...

miju

NyquistFreak wrote: »

I was thinking about the umbrella group idea alright, it would be class if it could cover events and publishing too, give decent info on copyright law etc, be a proper resource like...but with the common interest of improving the scene for all, creating an environment for continues learning, I love the mentoring idea and all.

For the last two years me and two others have been working on a project like this. Planning, developing and then some more planning & development to the point where all sectors of the industry will come together in a fair , sustainable and mutually profitable effort.

We're now in the very final stages before the plans are put into action (which was what my sticky in this forum was about). And late next month two years of work will come to fruition and a supprt structure that has never been in place in this country before will come into existence.

I'll be posting up a nice big thread for all boardsies soon enough though

MilanPan!c wrote: »

So look, what the idea needs is a "business plan" of sorts, so that it is sustainable and fair... Then it needs a website, or at least an email address so that all the needs can matched with skills on offer.

There needs to be a well defined tit-for-tat, or it won't work...

And.

In my opinion, it needs to have clearly defined goals, such as (like Canada) government funding/agreements from media to have a defined minimum local content.

Our project has all of this plus the all important funding to carry it luckily, so I suppose my theories will be put to the real worl test soon enough.

MilanPan!c

miju wrote: »

For the last two years me and two others have been working on a project like this. Planning, developing and then some more planning & development to the point where all sectors of the industry will come together in a fair , sustainable and mutually profitable effort.

We're now in the very final stages before the plans are put into action (which was what my sticky in this forum was about). And late next month two years of work will come to fruition and a supprt structure that has never been in place in this country before will come into existence.

I'll be posting up a nice big thread for all boardsies soon enough though



Our project has all of this plus the all important funding to carry it luckily, so I suppose my theories will be put to the real worl test soon enough.

AWESOME!

Good work you guys!

I am amazed and impressed and excited to see details!