You have to "make it" outside your own country first

Waking-Dreams

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]OK, let's have a discussion, on what often gets brought up in conversation by musicians or is even spoken like some kind of mantra for succeeding: that an original band must relocate and find an audience elsewhere in the world before their fellow countrymen will take much notice.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This seems to resonate with Irish bands the most, given that ours is such a small country and as some would agrue, is full of begrudgers (yet, envy is a universal emotional response found all over the world, even in remote African villages where they still use Black Magic to ward off the Evil Eye from neighbours).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Obviously, if a band resides in the USA they can probably make do with playing up and down every state, what with 300+ million people living there. So where does that leave the Irish in a country of 4-5 million?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do bands here feel its enivitable that they must move to another country to prosper financially? Yet, just like with Hollywood, moving to some magical place on a map doesn't equate success per se and can be like moving from a pond to an ocean. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Doesn't the Internet allow bands to see where their fanbase are living (thanks to IP mapping – which tells them where traffic is coming from onto their website), and then guage where they might do well when they choose to tour? Or would moving just allow for easier circumstances for touring and playing more frequently (we are at the edge of Europe after all). [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What bands here would consider moving, and why? Do you think it will impress a record company (if that's what you're after) or other people by demonstrating that you are willing to up sticks and leave to play music?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I've done it and have my own views on the matter but I'd like to open up the floor to others and get their opinions and thoughts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Discuss.[/FONT]

----

EDIT: By the way, before someone says it, I've heard the fable where a man looks up at the millionaire's mansion in America and says, “Someday, that'll be me in that kind of a house!” whereas in Ireland it's, “I'll smash his bleedin' windows!”, when I'm sure people get their fancy cars vandalised on the streets of America and are subjected to envy from plenty of people. I think it's a proximity effect. No one here feels envious of the faceless billionaire businessman who lives in some other country, but if someone you knew won the lottery and built a mansion a few doors down from where you were living, you might feel a twinge of envy.

So, it doesn't matter where you live, you can encounter begrudgery from those who live near you. If you happen to think Ireland is worse could you cite some evidence for this please and not just your unsubstantiated opinion.

Einstein

God topic.

The band I was with for a while, considered moving to the UK a few times.

Tbh though, it wasn't to impress anyone etc, it was to do with the fact that there's no real industry in Ireland. Radio stations don't play the music, people don't really follow live music. other countries, like the UK or Germany, have a much larger population and live music is quite the past time for some people.

More people + venues means that you music gets better exposure. So it's definitely to do about exposure I feel.

Savman

Einstein wrote: »

More people + venues means that you music gets better exposure.

On the other hand, if there's only a population of 5m in Ireland and an act can't get exposure on such a small island, surely the same act would be absolutely lost in a nation of 60m+. Kinda warped logic when you think about it.

Einstein

Savman wrote: »

On the other hand, if there's only a population of 5m in Ireland and an act can't get exposure on such a small island, surely the same act would be absolutely lost in a nation of 60m+. Kinda warped logic when you think about it.

I know,
It's kinda ironic.
S'ppose my logic would be based on the fact that 3% of the irish popultion like you, and 3% of the other population like you, thats a lot more people that buy a lot more singles that gets a lot more exposure!

A Primal Nut

I'd imagine its easier in Ireland. I know people who sold a few hundred singles and got into the charts. Then you get your song on the radio, especially if its any good, and maybe work your way up to a no.1 album or something. Once you get success in one country, like Ireland, and your music is fairly universal, Britain and other countries are more likely to take notice.

Making it in the States must be damn near impossible in comparison, although I guess you only need to be popular in one area to make money.

MilanPan!c

The Villagers...

The Script...

Heck, even Jape...

Plenty of band do as well as they would in the UK, where, by the way, the competition is much more stiff. In my opinion.

odonopenmic

I'd move tomorrow, so long as there was a plan in place. Wandering aimlessly in Ireland or elsewhere is silly.

However, what's the point in spending years trying to crack Ireland, then spending years trying to crack the UK, then years trying to crack the US. Cut out the middleman. Go west!

Any experience we've had playing overseas has always been better than here. Better crowd, more open-minded, won't be simply satisfied with whatever limited tripe is on the radio playlists, better venues, better money...

Plus I do think it's easier for a foreign band to make it - it's more interesting to a local audience.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

Edit: just thinking to say 'better crowd' without qualifying is a bit disrespectful to all the people that do come and see us - they couldn't be better. However, if you're relatively unknown to an area, I think foreign audiences are much more likely to come along and listen and give you a shot. I find that unless you bring your crowd here and you are already known, you don't get the time of day.

PMI

1st off....

Remember there are alot of bands that record music that truly shouldnt be as its toilet and expect to make it?!? and also think after writing 10 songs that the world owes them something

What is making it? money/success/fame or making a killer album you and the producer/enginner are happy with? as if the later is the one theres probably more hope for the album/songs.

If you dont have a following at your gigs, maybe its time to look at it.... and not "my space" a friend adder and you get 4000 fans no point in that as they dont come to gigs and they dont pay your bills.

Moving abroad is not the best option as you have to learn how it works there then, so your already on the back foot guys I think if you make enough noise without any management/record company they will come, although you need to have your album ready to release quality as they will pick the other band over you if theres a blemish in the mixes as they dont want to spend money on anything other than farming you around and making money off you, the days of development etc... are gone

Good luck

Einstein

I do agree that a lot of success these days comes from getting your music online. The days of being discovered in sh!tholes in Dublin are well gone

Going abroad with a plan and contacts is the way forward. Don't just jump a boat and hope ye do well. Pre-plan. Arrange a day trip to London etc, meet with management companies / promo companies etc and see if they would be interested in your music, and what they could do for you. Then build a plan and run with it.

Obviously landing in the UK and sayin "now what" aint the way to go :P

maccored

PMI wrote: »

1st off....

What is making it?

thats exactly what I was going to ask. If 'making it' means earning a half decent wage the the likes of The Walls and Horslips show you can do that without leaving the country.

PMI

Yep and only now would the script even be in the bracket of truly earning enough to change your lifestyle.... it takes years....

hit single this month you have to wait for at least 6 months for anything to come through and even then your going to pay off costs incured, so you have to be in for the long haul and not a quick buck:)

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

Yep and only now would the script even be in the bracket of truly earning enough to change your lifestyle.... it takes years....

hit single this month you have to wait for at least 6 months for anything to come through and even then your going to pay off costs incured, so you have to be in for the long haul and not a quick buck:)

Absolutely, it's a business you have to show up an run every single day.

phonarr

No one is asking the all important question here
Whether staying or not is a good move is irrelevant since I'd imagine it depends your band/attitude and what not...
The real question is should you leave?

Yes the UK is a power house at pumping successful bands
but when you consider the size of the country and Japan (which is also pretty good at getting the worlds attention) with that of other countries in the same position such as France, Austrailia and the US you have to wonder why Ireland, a first world country that speaks English (the language of Media) that has produced internationally famous bands and is a well known country internationally doesn't have a similar status.
Hell even with Northern Ireland we have the means of dipping our toes into countries media with out leaving

I believe that it's because people feel the only way to make it is to leave
Dara O'Briain lives in the UK now
the head animator of Avatar was Irish as well
we generate such talent but never keep it
I'll admit this is some times the people in charge's fault rather than the artist themselves
ex. RTÉ rejecting Father Ted

People need to stay in their home country and try develop a scene
something interesting with a local interested fanbase
and maybe even attract some main land europeans and brits to come here on a gig trip
make something worth a wikipedia article

kevin.mullally

Its all well and good to say stay and try and make it here in Ireland but it also comes down to what sort of music you play. It might be ok so bands like the Script to stay in Ireland and gain a following but thats because that sort of music is more popular then the likes of what I like to play which is metal. Theres a crap metal scene in Ireland, you wouldnt have a hope of getting on the radio or into any major festivals compared to bands of the more mainstream music genres. The only option therefore is to go to a country where the type of music you play has a decent scene and try make it there.

miju

Oh dear this is such a topic for such a big rant, it is quite possible to make it here in Ireland.

After all I'd be of the opinion that if you can't make it and get your business practices / PR promotion and generally your music industry machine running in Ireland which has a very small industry / music consuming public which totals just over 0.50% of the entire music market Worldwide then what chance have you in the likes of the UK or Germany which are 6.4% and 9.1% of the entire worldwide market respectively. See attached chart for more of an idea of market sizes.

I've seen plenty of bands who say "you have to move country" / "nothing here in Ireland" but the cold truth of the matter is they haven't worked / looked hard enough and the above phrases are a simple cop out for their lack of work / lack of talent.You only have to look at the "Want a Record Deal" thread and bands posting up all sorts. In all seriousness if anyone thinks they are going to get anything like that from a boards thread they are in lala land.


There are SOOO many ways for bands to find out about available labels / publishers and to approach them correctly with the actual kind of music they are looking for (be it metal or pop music) but 99% of the bands couldn't be arsed truth be told. Like kevin.mullaly above saying there is no real metal scene in Ireland theres a ****load of metal fans so that means they should be crying out for Irish talent OR the opportunity exists to create a metal scene?????
This rant will continue later be warned LOL

Bill_Le_Viking

Just take the music anywhere that people are willing to listen, and if you really are good at what you do, and appeal to the right audience then you'll do alright.

Depends on what ya mean by make it tho, some people just want a few people to listen and they're happy. Others want to be big and rich and famous.

Miju, irish metal? Glyder

miju

Bill_Le_Viking wrote: »

Miju, irish metal? Glyder

I wasn't commenting about the metal scene I was merely responding to anothers post on the metal scene.

phonarr

kevin.mullally wrote: »

Theres a crap metal scene in Ireland,

you kidding?
www.moshspace.com
http://www.metalireland.com/
http://www.primordialweb.com/
each more metal than the last

kevin.mullally wrote: »

you wouldnt have a hope of getting on the radio or into any major festivals compared to bands of the more mainstream music genres.

well yeah that's why mainstream is mainstream
If an irish metal band plays (lets say oxegen) they'd probably get called sell outs
A lot of metal fans like that their favorite bands aren't on the radio or that they don't play oxegen or electric picnic and that they only play hellfest in paris or whatever

PMI

miju wrote: »

Oh dear this is such a topic for such a big rant, it is quite possible to make it here in Ireland.

After all I'd be of the opinion that if you can't make it and get your business practices / PR promotion and generally your music industry machine running in Ireland which has a very small industry / music consuming public which totals just over 0.50% of the entire music market Worldwide then what chance have you in the likes of the UK or Germany which are 6.4% and 9.1% of the entire worldwide market respectively. See attached chart for more of an idea of market sizes.

I've seen plenty of bands who say "you have to move country" / "nothing here in Ireland" but the cold truth of the matter is they haven't worked / looked hard enough and the above phrases are a simple cop out for their lack of work / lack of talent.You only have to look at the "Want a Record Deal" thread and bands posting up all sorts. In all seriousness if anyone thinks they are going to get anything like that from a boards thread they are in lala land.


There are SOOO many ways for bands to find out about available labels / publishers and to approach them correctly with the actual kind of music they are looking for (be it metal or pop music) but 99% of the bands couldn't be arsed truth be told. Like kevin.mullaly above saying there is no real metal scene in Ireland theres a ****load of metal fans so that means they should be crying out for Irish talent OR the opportunity exists to create a metal scene?????
This rant will continue later be warned LOL

Listen and learn this guy is spot on !!!!

as I said in my 1st post make sure your own band doesnt fall into that "hey we wrote 10 songs now the world owes us" ha

I cant think of anywhere I would rather be than here... english speaking, small country with access to charts and radio via under 1k of sales in a good week ?!?

I did have a big post but it didnt post, modem died and i cant be arsed to retype might do later....

kevin.mullally

phonarr wrote: »

well yeah that's why mainstream is mainstream
If an irish metal band plays (lets say oxegen) they'd probably get called sell outs
A lot of metal fans like that their favorite bands aren't on the radio or that they don't play oxegen or electric picnic and that they only play hellfest in paris or whatever

Why would anyone like that their favourite bands dont play near them?

Gang of Gin

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]OK, let's have a discussion, on what often gets brought up in conversation by musicians or is even spoken like some kind of mantra for succeeding: that an original band must relocate and find an audience elsewhere in the world before their fellow countrymen will take much notice.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]This seems to resonate with Irish bands the most, given that ours is such a small country and as some would agrue, is full of begrudgers (yet, envy is a universal emotional response found all over the world, even in remote African villages where they still use Black Magic to ward off the Evil Eye from neighbours).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Obviously, if a band resides in the USA they can probably make do with playing up and down every state, what with 300+ million people living there. So where does that leave the Irish in a country of 4-5 million?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Do bands here feel its enivitable that they must move to another country to prosper financially? Yet, just like with Hollywood, moving to some magical place on a map doesn't equate success per se and can be like moving from a pond to an ocean. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Doesn't the Internet allow bands to see where their fanbase are living (thanks to IP mapping – which tells them where traffic is coming from onto their website), and then guage where they might do well when they choose to tour? Or would moving just allow for easier circumstances for touring and playing more frequently (we are at the edge of Europe after all). [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]What bands here would consider moving, and why? Do you think it will impress a record company (if that's what you're after) or other people by demonstrating that you are willing to up sticks and leave to play music?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I've done it and have my own views on the matter but I'd like to open up the floor to others and get their opinions and thoughts.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Discuss.[/FONT]

----

EDIT: By the way, before someone says it, I've heard the fable where a man looks up at the millionaire's mansion in America and says, “Someday, that'll be me in that kind of a house!” whereas in Ireland it's, “I'll smash his bleedin' windows!”, when I'm sure people get their fancy cars vandalised on the streets of America and are subjected to envy from plenty of people. I think it's a proximity effect. No one here feels envious of the faceless billionaire businessman who lives in some other country, but if someone you knew won the lottery and built a mansion a few doors down from where you were living, you might feel a twinge of envy.

So, it doesn't matter where you live, you can encounter begrudgery from those who live near you. If you happen to think Ireland is worse could you cite some evidence for this please and not just your unsubstantiated opinion.

Yeah, the country is small in a relative sense in proportion to successful bands in bigger countries, namely the UK and USA, but the begrudgery thing is a bit of a cop out.

Irish bands, the majority of, just are not that good at all. Don't pass this off as begrudgery.

Waking-Dreams

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

Irish bands, the majority of, just are not that good at all. Don't pass this off as begrudgery.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That is kind of my point. That those who bring up the begrudgery argument seem to play down its frequency in every other culture and society, and try to claim it's an Irish phenomenon.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In response to those who claim there's a crap music scene here, or that it's limited; have you ever set foot in some of the most rural parts of other countries? I've driven through some one-horse towns in my time, places where live music probably means some of the locals sitting around on pub stools and playing some traditional tunes for each other and their friends. Ireland isn't that bad for such a small country with a very favourable international profile; we seem to be loved abroad.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]

I've seen plenty of bands who say “you have to move country” / “nothing here in Ireland” but the cold truth of the matter is they haven't worked / looked hard enough and the above phrases are a simple cop out for their lack of work / lack of talent.

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Spot on. The whole “scene sucks” mantra has been overplayed, and I've heard it used to describe almost everywhere. There will always be something to dislike about wherever you end up. Whether it's that the competition is too rife, or that there's not enough avenues for exposure. Everybody wants a “scene” but nobody wants to invest money or do the work it takes to create that “scene” - things that actually require stepping outside their comfort zone. People who move somewhere expecting to find a “scene” usually want someone else to do all the work and front the money too. They want somebody else to figure out what to do, for them. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
It just seems that the whole leaving Ireland in order to “make it” is so ingrained into our culture, even among people who don't play music. I know we have a long history of emigration but we're not living in the dark ages now. Yet, I've had so many conversations with people and when they learned I played music they would often ask was I leaving the country at some stage? They seemed to believe that no local bands here would have a hope of doing well in this country, “too many begrudgers.” I wonder where this non-musician mindset comes from.[/FONT]

MilanPan!c

Couldn't agree more; I've been in bands in the US/UK and Ireland.

Ireland is lucky.

But it can also be a place where people feel a bit overshadowed and incapable of breaking out.

Think how often you (at least I) have heard the Irish don't go for starting small businesses... And yet... There's no real reason.

An for all practical purposes starting a band is the exact same thing.

There's no reason for the state of the scene; people could easily change it with a bit of cooperation and quality control, but will it ever happen?

Who knows?

If everyone was a bit more honest and open to cooperation things could change. Better bands would emerge, more people would care and more money would be made.


And hey, guess what, if those things happened, threads like this would seem redundant.

miju

PMI wrote: »

I cant think of anywhere I would rather be than here... english speaking, small country with access to charts and radio via under 1k of sales in a good

Just to add tt's been a long time since I've seen an independant band break into the top 10 charts in this country.

And the very frightening thing which will show you the standard of "effort" being put in by bands is that the number of sales required to break into the top 10 is actually pathetically small and we're talking around the 250 MP3 sales mark here.

It sounds harsh but a band is deluding themselves that they can make it in another country if they can't even manage 250 mp3 sales in a week. If anyone would like an example of sales figures then send me a PM (I'm not publicly posting sales data) and it will probably open your eyes alot as to whats actually achieveable if you put in the effort. Including plenty of radio airplay that goes with getting high in the charts providing you've the cop on to give the stations your release (and believe it or not I've seen bands do all the work and forget to service radio stations with releases leaving them with no momentum for all their work).

Waking-Dreams

Why would anyone like that their favourite bands dont play near them?

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if you lived in the USA, fans can still find themselves driving for 6 hours to see a band, or having to get a plane somewhere because the band didn't play every single area. It's basic touring economics.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Regarding the quality of the scene and bands helping one another out:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Co-operation is all well and good, and altruism does indeed exist but I think we forget how competitive we can be as a species. Self-interest is always at play, and if getting one over your neighbour means they have to “lose” in order for you to “win”, and increase your chances of success, mating options and passing on your genes, we will unconsciously do this. This sounds crazy you might say but remember, we are not actually designed for this current version of the modern world. Although we can be quite sophisticated, logical and articulate, we carry around with us the genetic baggage of our ancient ancestors who dwelled in a more primitive and hostile enviornment. While a simple explanation for every facet of human nature would be a daunting task at best, most experts firmly agree that it is this inherited baggage which is the root cause of our somewhat irrational, unpredictable and impulsive behaviours. [/FONT]

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]That was kind of my point. That those who bring up the begrudgery argument seem to omit its frequency in every other culture and society, and claim it's an Irish phenomenon.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In response to those who claim there's a crap music scene here, or that it's limited; have you ever set foot in some of the most rural parts of other countries? I've driven through some one-horse towns in my time, places where live music probably means some of the locals sitting around on pub stools and playing some traditional tunes for each other and their friends. Ireland isn't that bad for such a small country with a very favourable international profile; we seem to be loved abroad.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Spot on. The whole “scene sucks” mantra has been overplayed, and I've heard it used to describe almost everywhere. There will always be something to dislike about wherever you end up. Whether it's that the competition is too rife, or that there's not enough avenues for exposure. Everybody wants a “scene” but nobody wants to invest money or do the work it takes to create that “scene” - things that actually require stepping outside their comfort zone. People who move somewhere expecting to find a “scene” usually want someone else to do all the work and front the money too. They want somebody else to figure out what to do, for them. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]
It just seems that the whole leaving Ireland in order to “make it” is so ingrained into our culture, even among people who don't even play music. I know we have a long history of emigration but we're not living in the dark ages now. Yet, I've had so many conversations with people and when they learned I played music they would often ask was I leaving the country at some stage? They seemed to believe that no local bands here would have a hope of doing well in this country, “too many begrudgers.” I wonder where this non-musician mindset comes from.[/FONT]

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Even if you lived in the USA, fans can still find themselves driving for 6 hours to see a band, or having to get a plane somewhere because the band didn't play every single area. It's basic touring economics.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Regarding the quality of the scene and bands helping one another out:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Co-operation is all well and good, and altruism does indeed exist but I think we forget how competitive we can be as a species. Self-interest is always at play, and if getting one over your neighbour means they have to “lose” in order for you to “win”, and increase your chances of success, mating options and passing on your genes, we will unconsciously do this. This sounds crazy you might say but remember, we are not actually designed for this current version of the modern world. Although we can be quite sophisticated, logical and articulate, we carry around with us the genetic baggage of our ancient ancestors who dwelled in a more primitive and hostile enviornment. While a simple explanation for every facet of human nature would be a daunting task at best, most experts firmly agree that it is this inherited baggage which is the root cause of our somewhat irrational, unpredictable and impulsive behaviours. [/FONT]

To be clear:

I'm not talking about altruism, nor do I believe in it.

I'm talking about working together in self-interest.

That happens in MANY US scenes. And many bands benefit.

I'm no hippy. I'm someone that KNOWS that businesses can cooperate to suceed.

And he'll yea about distances in the US; I regularly drove 2 hours to Memphis and 6 hours to Dallas to see bands. And so did my friends.

Nature of the flipping beast.

Waking-Dreams

I'm talking about working together in self-interest.

I know what you mean. I happen to think most bands (people even) can't stand to see others doing well, unless they too are also doing well. So, self-interest yes, but we all have to be winners, and that just can't work.

Duffman86

EMMMMM lads U2 didn hav t go all that far they done a good job of making it here

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I know what you mean. I happen to think most bands (people even) can't stand to see others doing well, unless they too are also doing well. So, self-interest yes, but we all have to be winners, and that just can't work.

Well, two bands on the same label are obviously both competing and cooperating.

For example.

And athletes practice together, make each other stronger, then compete.

Making all bands better and more sucessful makes all bands better and more successful.

Think of it like this, right now Irish bands feel like there's a lot of begrudgerey. An guess what that leads to.. More begrudgery

if instead, Irish band felt like the scene was supportive and produced success, guess what, people would cooperate more and there'd be more success.

So, not everyone gets famous, obviously, but more bands are better and have more opportunity.

And if more bands are successful the industry will make more bands successful.

They're followers and they want to be part of success... You've said that.

So success brings more sucess.

Other bands doing well HELPS your band.

It's not wishful thinking, it reflects cynical business practices.

PMI

That would be an amazing week to just do 250 and hit top 10 TBH on average 750-900 gets you the 15-12 bracket and 1k + depending on how strategic youve been in choosing your week should get you 10 but not far above.

Most bands I know (independants) hit 13 at most and fell out as they forgot that the following week you get 50% of the previous week

so 900 got the last guys there, and then week 2 started on 450 and sold about a hundred so droped off the scale

Its easy to chart but you need to hold it to have any chance of getting your band around, a single weeks airplay is not enough as people will be at work or not in car at that time listening to radio so 2 weeks or above is where you see real difference etc.. etc..

And by the way great posts lads, good to have a discussion for once

phonarr

kevin.mullally wrote: »

Why would anyone like that their favourite bands dont play near them?

it's a holiday

no band goes straight to a festival anyway

just go to fibbers
If there isn't a band playing live
they are in the smoking area, drinking