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Is the meat in Alda/Lidl safe? What's the quality of it?
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I try not to be but the reality of how agriculture is structured in Ireland means we pay very little for our chicken and meat, far less than it costs to produce it. The animal welfare and environmental implications suggest we eat too much meat and we go for quantity over quality. There's no way our meat-eating habits would be sustainable if replicated world wide.
Hmm, not so sure about that, is grass-beef drastically cheaper here than in the rest of Europe or even the world? If so I can think of worse things to subsidise, it's a highly nutritious food. As regards eating too much meat, protein tends to remain static at about 15-25% calories, there are very good appetite suppression mechanisms to keep it that way, if you check out studies where they try to increase it to 35% it always drops naturally back to 15-25%.
And you're right, there's no way we could feed the world grass-fed meat, but there's also no way of feeding the world organically either, doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile endeavor. It's a sad consequence of intensive, environmentally destructive farming methods we can support far too large a world population, and that's more down to intensive grain farming than a cow grazing on grass.
But yeah, that's probably a debate for another day
, in the meantime I do try and support meat producers that give consideration to quality instead of quantity at the lowest cost. It's a selfish decision as that happens to be the meat that is the highest in nutrition. I don't always succeed, but I do try.. 0 -
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All of European food benefits from subsidies via CAP. Also price comparisons would have to take PPP into consideration.Temple_Grandin wrote: »Hmm, not so sure about that, is grass-beef drastically cheaper here than in the rest of Europe or even the world?
Well...calorie intake has increased and meat intake with it, no? Ruminating animals make up a significant amount of Ireland's CO2 emissions as well as being a leading contributor to water pollution. Re: animal rights, dairy cattle regularly suffer from mastisis and are regularly impregnated to ensure a regular milk supply.Temple_Grandin wrote: »If so I can think of worse things to subsidise, it's a highly nutritious food. As regards eating too much meat, protein tends to remain static at about 15-25% calories, there are very good appetite suppression mechanisms to keep it that way, if you check out studies where they try to increase it to 35% it always drops naturally back to 15-25%.
Yes, grain farming is far worse than grass-fed food products. And there is a school of agricultural thought that goes beyond organic. Did you ever hear about Joe Salatin of Polyface farm? Now that's a farm I'd love to visit one day.Temple_Grandin wrote: »And you're right, there's no way we could feed the world grass-fed meat, but there's also no way of feeding the world organically either, doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile endeavor. It's a sad consequence of intensive, environmentally destructive farming methods we can support far too large a world population, and that's more down to intensive grain farming than a cow grazing on grass.
Oh sure, meat & dairy is nutritious but they aren't necessarily the most environmentally friendly or animal welfare-friendly choice.Temple_Grandin wrote: »But yeah, that's probably a debate for another day, in the meantime I do try and support meat producers that give consideration to quality instead of quantity at the lowest cost. It's a selfish decision as that happens to be the meat that is the highest in nutrition. I don't always succeed, but I do try..
Perhaps this is off-topic but I feel we don't consider these elements in our food choices enough.0 -
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All beef in Ireland is grass-fed, except for being finished on grain afaik (brianthebard, maybe you know?) If you were buying grass-fed beef in a market that was dominated by grain-fed beef, that would be something else. Plus, it isn't a zero-sum game in terms of CO2 as I explain below and you still have issues with water pollution. Although of course it's a million times better than buying Brazilian beef straight from the AmazonTemple_Grandin wrote: »Yeah but I still don't see how that affects me buying grass-fed local meat? I'm actually shifting more profit to the guys who are doing it right
Yeah, I couldn't believe that when I saw it, it's brilliantTemple_Grandin wrote: »the idea being to eventually create a tipping point, as with what happened in the battery egg situation, most people now buy free-range and now the EU are banning battery farms for chickens in 2012.
That's not true at all. CO2 is stored in grass, eaten by cows and released as methane, a GHG that is 8 times as powerful as CO2. Plus manure is another major contributor. This can be very successfully processed through anaerobic digestion (AD) but we need to get into gear and deploy it throughout the country asap.Temple_Grandin wrote: »Grass fed cows and greenhouse gases is a zero sum game, the grass absorbs greenhouse gases and then the cow eats and releases it again. Also, isn't the methane from cows dwarfed by the methene produced by rice paddies? Do you expect the 2 billion people on the planet that subsist on rice to give that up too?
As for rice, in most areas of rice cultivation, it is the most suitable or the only suitable crop for that area. Moreover, the ghg emissions are more than cancelled out by the significantly lower emissions from other parts of their lifestyles.0 -
That's not true at all. CO2 is stored in grass, eaten by cows and released as methane, a GHG that is 8 times as powerful as CO2.
Yes but not in an equal ratio of carbon intake to methane output. Plus your forgetting the massive amount of energy it takes to grow, harvest, process, store and deliver crops. In terms of 'energy' used per calorie of food there's not that much difference between grass-fed meat (If you eat head to toe) which is calorie dense and the equivalent amount of calories in grain.As for rice, in most areas of rice cultivation, it is the most suitable or the only suitable crop for that area.
What about the massive amount of land that is not suited to growing crops but is for pasturing animals?Moreover, the ghg emissions are more than cancelled out by the significantly lower emissions from other parts of their lifestyles.
That's a massive assumption, what about the entirety of Japan? Why is no-one telling the Japanese to stop eating rice?
Plus, western families have less chidren, so the vegetarian in india that has ten kids is contributing vastly more to environmental destruction than the childless meat-eater in Ireland, never mind contributing to the depletion of more resources for centuries into the future..
Each problem comes back to one central issue, there are too many people on the planet end of..and the fact that poor peolple in Chad can't afford to eat organic doesn't mean that no one else should.
Ah, we've gone into descended into multiquote territory! 0 -
You're making more than a few assumptions there on the specific type of agriculture, amount and type of fertiliser, use of machinery, transportation distance etc. In reality in general, grain crops are much lower in ghg emissions than meat, including grass-fed beef. Plus cattle also require processing, storing, transportation, delivery etc. All of these consume energy and create significantly more waste than with crops, eg tallow, emissions to water, animal by-products)Temple_Grandin wrote: »Yes but not in an equal ratio of carbon intake to methane output. Plus your forgetting the massive amount of energy it takes to grow, harvest, process, store and deliver crops. In terms of 'energy' used per calorie of food there's not that much difference between grass-fed meat (If you eat head to toe) which is calorie dense and the equivalent amount of calories in grain.
I'll try to find some comparable stats. Otherwise we're both flailing around in the dark a bit
In Ireland, there is not a "massive" amount of land that is not suited to growing crops. We are actually blessed with very arable land. But a significant amount of land that is suitable for crops is used for pasture. For example, Ireland's best land is in the SE of the country but that is also a dairy stronghold in Ireland.Temple_Grandin wrote: »What about the massive amount of land that is not suited to growing crops but is for pasturing animals?
It isn't a massive assumption. If you take the countries where rice is the main grain, it is correct. You're singling out Japan, which has the highest per capita emissions in that region.Temple_Grandin wrote: »That's a massive assumption, what about the entirety of Japan? Why is no-one telling the Japanese to stop eating rice?
Not at all. The average per captia annual ghg emissions of an Indian person is 2 tonnes. In Ireland, it's about 15. And the average family size in India is 5 people, with Ireland at 3 so taken in terms of the average family, an Indian family would emit about 10 tonnes of CO2 per year, while an Irish family would emit about 45 tonnes of CO2... And those poor people with 10 children are emitting a fraction of the Indian average of 2 tonnes.Temple_Grandin wrote: »Plus, western families have less chidren, so the vegetarian in india that has ten kids is contributing vastly more to environmental destruction than the childless meat-eater in Ireland, never mind contributing to the depletion of more resources for centuries into the future..
As for future depletion of resources, well it's up to us not to keep exporting our consumer-driven, resource-intensive lifestyles, including our diets, and help developing countries skip over the carbon-intensive development that we went through.
No, I don't accept that at all. Sweden's per capita emissions are 5 - a third of ours and I would say they have a far better life than we do. I'd be wary of making the mistake of thinking that today's way is the only way. You'd be amazed how god-awfully inefficient today's systems are and how much room for fantastic improvement there is.Temple_Grandin wrote: »Each problem comes back to one central issue, there are too many people on the planet end of..and the fact that poor peolple in Chad can't afford to eat organic doesn't mean that no one else should.
Plus, it's the 20% of the world's population using the 80% of the world's resources that is the problem, not the other 80%. In other words, the impact per person is crucial to considerations.
Gah! The curse of the multiquote! Meaning no one else will read this at allTemple_Grandin wrote: »Ah, we've gone into descended into multiquote territory! 0 -
What was the last person sayin?
Anyway, I recently tried steak from Aldi, that being 'Nature's Isle Irish Beef Medallions'. Absolutely melt in your mouth stuff. Big thick juicy steaks, fully traceable to Irish farms, Bord Bia Approved and all that.
Bloody terrific. Around €5.50 for 2 8oz steaks, can't go too far wrong!0 -
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All beef in Ireland is grass-fed, except for being finished on grain afaik (brianthebard, maybe you know?) If you were buying grass-fed beef in a market that was dominated by grain-fed beef, that would be something else. Plus, it isn't a zero-sum game in terms of CO2 as I explain below and you still have issues with water pollution. Although of course it's a million times better than buying Brazilian beef straight from the Amazon
Omg I can't believe you assumed I'd be reading this thread, I'm so offended! *ahem* so anyways...calves would generally be fed milk to begin with, then a mix of grass and grain/calf nuts for a while, grass only after about six months old (maybe older) then finished on grain. That's how my dad does it and it would be similar for most farmers of his size, they don't want to use much grain either because it costs a lot. It might be different for larger farmers though.As for rice, in most areas of rice cultivation, it is the most suitable or the only suitable crop for that area. Moreover, the ghg emissions are more than cancelled out by the significantly lower emissions from other parts of their lifestyles.
Potatoes would grow just about anywhere that rice is grown, and would use way less water and energy. There's always something else that could be considered better for the environment or whatever but at some point you just have to eat you know?0 -
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Honestly not trying to go anywhere. It was a genuine question. I'm too old to be shoving my opinions down other peoples throats.
Ah, I knew that.. just being a bit tongue in cheek..
I know its a very emotive topic for a lot of people (organic vs non organic, intensely reared vs not etc etc) but as long as the meat im buying is fresh I dont mind.. as a rule I stay clear of processed (crap) meats but thats an entirely different debate. From reading through these type of debates its clear a lot of people are not really well informed on how meat is produced on Irish farms but thats a debate for a new thread..0 -
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