Wages

PeakOutput

Are you trying to imply I shouldnt claim back on all the PRSI and tax Ive paid over the last twenty years?

correct

Offy wrote: »

The tax man is entitled to take tax from me when I am working so but what logic to you determine that I shouldnt take back what Im entitled to?

you chose to leave your job you shouldnt be entitled to anything

By your logic the tax man is a sponger living off everyone hard work. Sponging off the state lol, the state never gave me anything for nothing.

was primary and secondary education not free when you attended? when did free college fees come in?

i guess you dont use the roads and bridges or any public transport or anything like that either

For some of us engineering is a vocation.

not for you though seen as your willing to give it up so easily

Thats exactly what I am doing, so as I am doing as you advise whats your problem?

you should pay for it yourself

i was pretty sure that if you left a job voluntarily you werent entitled to **** from the dole, if that is not the case it certainly should be

Offy

PeakOutput wrote: »

correct



you chose to leave your job you shouldnt be entitled to anything



was primary and secondary education not free when you attended? when did free college fees come in?

i guess you dont use the roads and bridges or any public transport or anything like that either



not for you though seen as your willing to give it up so easily



you should pay for it yourself

i was pretty sure that if you left a job voluntarily you werent entitled to **** from the dole, if that is not the case it certainly should be

ehh ya ok, lets just agree to disagree.

Gurgle

Offy wrote: »

That assumption is based on what?

12 years working in engineering, performance related pay increments and grade progression and one instance of 'I'm off' being answered with 'how much to stay?'.

There is no excuse for quitting a €34k job to live on welfare. The fact that its both possible and financially viable is the very definition of whats wrong with this country in general and the welfare system in particular.

You wouldn't have been so quick to pack in that job if you were going to be doing community work to qualify for your welfare payments.

Maybe I have too much pride, wanting to pay my own way through life, but I would rather (and have done) manual labour for minimum wage than claim welfare.

Offy

Gurgle wrote: »

12 years working in engineering, performance related pay increments and grade progression and one instance of 'I'm off' being answered with 'how much to stay?'.

If you read through this thread you will see I was only with that company for just over a year. I told the company at the interview stage that I was going to be returning to college and asked if that would be a problem to do as an employee. They said it wasnt a problem and one of their engineers had just completed his masters while working for them. I was asked to wait a year before applying and I agreed. Then the company started to loose money so that was scraped. I accepted a low wage because I wanted a masters, once the masters was ruled out I saw no reason to stay. Added to that people were been let go so I decided to make other plans. The project I was working on was through testing and about to be put on an assembly line. They spent four years working on this project before I started working for them. At the end of the four years they had a prototype that didnt function or meet BS standards. I spent a year making changes. Now they have a product that passes BS standards and functions as intended. You can accuse me of been useless all you like but the fact of the matter is I gave the company exactly what they asked for. A product that functions to specification and meets BS standards which is something none of the other engineers that worked on that project could do. The projest I was working on was through testing and about to be put on an assembly line. In the twenty plus years that the company is operating they have only designed three of these devices that went to market so there was little point in me staying, they probably wont design another of those devices for years to come and it is a very specilist field of engineering. This company is owned by a man that writes BS standards so they know their stuff. I did what they couldnt do so if I am a useless engineer then what does that make the other engineers that worked on that project? Based on that achievement alone I totally dismiss your accusation.

Gurgle wrote: »

There is no excuse for quitting a €34k job to live on welfare. The fact that its both possible and financially viable is the very definition of whats wrong with this country in general and the welfare system in particular.

Im not making excuses, Im stating facts. Perhaps that is exactly whats wrong with this country, perhaps not.

Gurgle wrote: »

You wouldn't have been so quick to pack in that job if you were going to be doing community work to qualify for your welfare payments.

If circumstances were different of course my decisions would be different. But there not!

Gurgle wrote: »

Maybe I have too much pride, wanting to pay my own way through life, but I would rather (and have done) manual labour for minimum wage than claim welfare.

To much pride can be a bad thing.

Gurgle

Offy wrote: »

At the end of the four years they had a prototype that didnt function or meet BS standards. I spent a year making changes. Now they have a product that passes BS standards and functions as intended. You can accuse me of been useless all you like but the fact of the matter is I gave the company exactly what they asked for.

I am fully aware of the issues involved in getting products to comply with standards. I respectfully withdraw the implication that you were useless, there were some leftovers stuck in my head from another thread.

However I stand by my other comments, an underpaid job is better than no job.

Offy wrote: »

To much pride can be a bad thing.

In this circumstance?

Turbulent Bill

Tora Bora wrote: »

I'm in human resources. First thing to get straight, is the quality of the graduates presenting themselves for interview with masters degrees in a whole range of engineering disciplines. They have the papers and they talk the talk, BUT when they get into the workplace, a significant percentage are not fit for purpose. Another significant percentage show good potential but have a long way to go, before they can justify anything above €22k. A minority are simply best of class and even if they start on €22k, will quickly get up the salary scale because they do the business.

Engineering graduates of all types need to start thinking low €20k's starting.

The boom is over. The days of cheap credit and easy money is over. Buisnesses are seriously focusing on cost and competitiveness. There is no logic in paying a graduate engineer in ROI more than similar guy in UK.

Welcome to the new real world.

I'd agree with 'pay for performance' in theory (especially for inexperienced staff), but in the vast majority of companies employees who start on low salaries stay on low salaries, and people are well aware of this. Assuming that a graduate is 30% more efficient/valuable/productive at the end of their first year (rough guess), I find it hard to believe that they climb the salary scale at the same rate.

In the long term depressing salaries will lead to an engineering brain-drain, as people turn to better-earning and easier-to-perform alternatives. There's a few years of cheap unemployed engineers left, but why would the next generation sign up for engineering, even as a vocation, for €22k?

x in the city

x in the city wrote: »

salary below 30k is ridiculous tbh

There are engineers with a couple of years experience on less in med devices and pharma companies throughout the country.

Turbulent Bill

Offy wrote: »

I told the company at the interview stage that I was going to be returning to college and asked if that would be a problem to do as an employee. They said it wasnt a problem and one of their engineers had just completed his masters while working for them. I was asked to wait a year before applying and I agreed. Then the company started to loose money so that was scraped. I accepted a low wage because I wanted a masters, once the masters was ruled out I saw no reason to stay.

This is the kernel of it. Most engineering companies now have to cut costs, and training/CPD is always one of the first of these. From the sounds of it the company agreed to the masters in good faith, got caught in the recession and had to change plan - that's just life.

It's a sad reflection both on the economy and the social welfare system that you can walk away from a €34k job and be no worse off. I don't blame you for doing it, but it shouldn't be possible in the first place. Personally I would have stuck with the job, in order to feel productive, keep skills, earn my keep etc.

You sound like you like engineering - do the masters and voluntary work until you find a suitably paid job?

BeeDI

If I were to leave a €30k plus job, no matter what the circumstances, I would have to have a screw loose ........... in fact I would have to have the entire mechanism keeping my little brain inside my skull, completely displaced from its anchor :rolleyes:

Of course that would not apply to clever guys, who know infinitely more than I would!

Still though, I'm right in this one. :D:D

kippy

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

I'd agree with 'pay for performance' in theory (especially for inexperienced staff), but in the vast majority of companies employees who start on low salaries stay on low salaries, and people are well aware of this. Assuming that a graduate is 30% more efficient/valuable/productive at the end of their first year (rough guess), I find it hard to believe that they climb the salary scale at the same rate.

In the long term depressing salaries will lead to an engineering brain-drain, as people turn to better-earning and easier-to-perform alternatives. There's a few years of cheap unemployed engineers left, but why would the next generation sign up for engineering, even as a vocation, for €22k?

I'd agree with your first point, based on personal experience.
That means that you need to move companies early in your career to get the best wages until you find one where you'll be well rewarded at. Thats not just an engineering thing either.

Offy

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

This is the kernel of it. Most engineering companies now have to cut costs, and training/CPD is always one of the first of these. From the sounds of it the company agreed to the masters in good faith, got caught in the recession and had to change plan - that's just life.

It's a sad reflection both on the economy and the social welfare system that you can walk away from a €34k job and be no worse off. I don't blame you for doing it, but it shouldn't be possible in the first place. Personally I would have stuck with the job, in order to feel productive, keep skills, earn my keep etc.

You sound like you like engineering - do the masters and voluntary work until you find a suitably paid job?

Would you believe that I have offered to do exactly that with a few local engineering companies, only one has gotten back to me so far and that was a rejection.

Offy

kippy wrote: »

I'd agree with your first point, based on personal experience.
That means that you need to move companies early in your career to get the best wages until you find one where you'll be well rewarded at. Thats not just an engineering thing either.

Thats why I left!!! I started on a low wage, they broke the agreement (not through any fault of their own) and Im not willing to put my education on the back burner for another year or 2 years or 3 years or whatever it takes for that company to recover. As a long term prospect I dont see anything appealing about working there and Im not getting any younger.

Gurgle

kippy wrote: »

That means that you need to move companies early in your career to get the best wages until you find one where you'll be well rewarded at.

Traditionally, the done thing is to stay in your current job until you've found another one to go to.

kippy

Gurgle wrote: »

Traditionally, the done thing is to stay in your current job until you've found another one to go to.

Yep,
Completely aware of that and I appreciate the relevance of that comment in the context of this post.

Offy

Gurgle wrote: »

Traditionally, the done thing is to stay in your current job until you've found another one to go to.

So Im not traditional! Look Gurgle and kippy we both have different views on wages in Ireland, lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that? At the end of the day I havent broken any laws or rules by quitting a job and as far as Im concerned Id sooner focus on my education than my career. I apprecate that not everyone is addicted to education but I am. Another way of looking at this situation if you like is this:
The company identified a specialist need for one of their products. They sucessfully recruited an engineer that could meet those needs. Once the need was meet I was no longer required. Any other tasks that were assigned to me could be better completed by their existing engineers. They are letting people go and having to pay redundancies, by quitting I saved them that extra payment. I also created an opening for an engineer that could serve their present needs with greater efficiency and expertise that I could should they decide they require someone to fill my boots. As I said earlier they only ever brought three of these devices to market and the new device meets the new standard. That standard might not be changed for years to come. Until it is they dont need someone with my skill set. They gave me a nice reference too so they dont seem to upset with me leaving. Thats the way it is no matter if you like it or not.
On a separate issue, if anyone doesnt like the fact that Im entitled to claim of social welfare then take it up with politicians, I didnt create the system that we live in so I dont accept responsibility for it. Having a go at me because I use the system to my advantage will not stop me using the system nor will it change the system.

kippy

Offy wrote: »

So Im not traditional! Look Gurgle and kippy we both have different views on wages in Ireland, lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that? At the end of the day I havent broken any laws or rules by quitting a job and as far as Im concerned Id sooner focus on my education than my career. I apprecate that not everyone is addicted to education but I am. Another way of looking at this situation if you like is this:
The company identified a specialist need for one of their products. They sucessfully recruited an engineer that could meet those needs. Once the need was meet I was no longer required. Any other tasks that were assigned to me could be better completed by their existing engineers. They are letting people go and having to pay redundancies, by quitting I saved them that extra payment. I also created an opening for an engineer that could serve their present needs with greater efficiency and expertise that I could should they decide they require someone to fill my boots. As I said earlier they only ever brought three of these devices to market and the new device meets the new standard. That standard might not be changed for years to come. Until it is they dont need someone with my skill set. They gave me a nice reference too so they dont seem to upset with me leaving. Thats the way it is no matter if you like it or not.
On a separate issue, if anyone doesnt like the fact that Im entitled to claim of social welfare then take it up with politicians, I didnt create the system that we live in so I dont accept responsibility for it. Having a go at me because I use the system to my advantage will not stop me using the system nor will it change the system.

To be honest with you, the whole attitude seems to be worse than that of the worst of the public servants I have met. One word, entltement, both in your work live and social welfare dealings.

Offy

kippy wrote: »

To be honest with you, the whole attitude seems to be worse than that of the worst of the public servants I have met. One word, entltement, both in your work live and social welfare dealings.

Offy exits stage left.
Bye.