Dry Firing A Rifle - Good or Bad ?

vixdname

Lads,
In ye're opinions is it ok to pull the trigger of a rifle without having a round in it ?
The reason I ask is that many years ago I had a single barrelled Baikal shotgun which I fired a couple of times without a cartridge loaded and after a few times of pulling the trigger the feckin firing pin flew out of it and had to be replaced.
I've read on this forum a few times that some of the lads here often dry fire their rifle so as to get used to taking the shot etc etc and would like to try that method out aswell but have this niggling feeling that when I pull the trigger the firing pin is going to get launched into the grass never to be found again !!!!!
What do you lads think ?

Dvs

Personally I have no problem dry firing any firearm that I have,
If it is that delicate that dry firing will damage it, then it is no use to me.

If you are worried about damaging it, you can get dummy rounds that have a rubber pad instead of a primer, or a snap cap dummy round that has a dummy primer with a spring to absorb the impact of the firing pin.

Or if you feel the need to do it yourself, you can deprime a fired case with a hammer and small nail,
from inside the case tap it out, and trim a pencil top erazer and glue it in place of the primer

Dvs.

Fallen Buckshot

ive heard its not good to dry fire .. so i dont

It wasn't me!

I use spent brass, because I'd be dry-firing a lot (If I'm practising I could dry fire maybe two or three hundred times in an afternoon), but if I were just doing it a handful of times I wouldn't be bothered if I didn't have any brass. If you use something to stop the firing pin, you'll never do any damage. If you don't, it'll take a very long time, but in a rimfire you'll start to nick the edge of your chamber (My rifle has this lovely feature from somewhere in its history) and in a centrefire I just wouldn't be comfortable with the pin not finding somewhere to dump all its energy, but don't worry yourself if you're not doing a huge amount. Spent brass is all it takes anyway.

patsat

Just take a round that you have already fired, put it in the chamber and dry fire with that in place!
Should save the pin, thats what i do.

ormondprop

i have snap caps for my hornet and shotgun, i only do it with my rimfire if i have a spent case in it, i don't know if my methods are right or wrong but its what i do, my father always warned me never to fire a gun if it was empty

Cass

I always use snap caps and have a set (or two) for each caliber firearm i own. I would be more concerned with my .22lr firing pin than the heavier calibers, but still would never fire any firearm without a snap cap to absorb the impact. Just a personal choice.

Also good quality snap caps are a must. Having used just about all the brands and makes i would steer clear of the plastic models as then tend to break, either on the "primer" (fake one that is) or along the body of the cap itself. Use brass or other metal ones where possible such as the ones below.

Rew

Its bad for a rimfire as the firing pin hits the edge of the chamber. Cant see the problem with a centerfire but I know alot of people are very touchy about it.

rrpc

Over time you will damage either the firing pin and/or (in the case of rimfires) the chamber.

Most firing pins have a shoulder that stops them from 'flying out' but if you dry fire too much without anything to stop the pin reaching the end of its travel, the shoulder will eventually wear down or in extreme cases break.

Not something you want happening in the middle of a competition.

ormondprop

can you get any dummy rounds for a rimfire or is the only choice to use empty brass

Kryten

Ive used 2 types for.22 rimfire. Plastic ones and aluminium ones. Both have limited use and the rim area gets chewed up pretty quickly and you have to dump them.

There 's a business idea. Invent a snap cap for .22 rimfire that is reusable and doesnt get damaged by firing.

Tackleberrywho

Rew wrote: »

Its bad for a rimfire as the firing pin hits the edge of the chamber. Cant see the problem with a centerfire but I know alot of people are very touchy about it.

Spot on Rew. Only Rimfire are the issue.

It's such a temptation to test a trigger on a .22lr Like a bit red EMO!

Tackleberrywho

ezridax wrote: »

I always use snap caps and have a set (or two) for each caliber firearm i own. I would be more concerned with my .22lr firing pin than the heavier calibers, but still would never fire any firearm without a snap cap to absorb the impact. Just a personal choice.

Also good quality snap caps are a must. Having used just about all the brands and makes i would steer clear of the plastic models as then tend to break, either on the "primer" (fake one that is) or along the body of the cap itself. Use brass or other metal ones where possible such as the ones below.

The DF call them drill rounds as you can practice with them loading, Unloading make safe etc.
Very good if you want to train a youngster for a trainer permit as they can practice dry firing unloading etc until they get the swing of it.

Also Good in Shotguns as Double barrels cock on folding you can take the pressure off the spring for storage!

kowloon

I've seen snap caps made by filling a used primer cup with rubber from an eraser and pressing it back into the spent case.

Cass

Kryten wrote: »

........the rim area gets chewed up pretty quickly and you have to dump them.

I think thars why most if not all .22 snap caps come in packs of 5 - 20 per pack. They will eventually give out. A spent shell has the same problems. Each time you insert a spent shell you should slightly rotate the shell so the firing pin is striking a "new" piece of the base.

There 's a business idea. Invent a snap cap for .22 rimfire that is reusable and doesnt get damaged by firing.

I would be great if it could, but the material the snap cap is made from would have to be either stonger than the firing pin leading to possible damage to the firing pin or softer than the pin which will lead to the snap cap getting worn out. Good idea, but each solution carries its own problems, but if you crack it you'll make a mint.

Tackleberrywho wrote:

The DF call them drill rounds as you can practice with them loading, Unloading make safe etc.
Very good if you want to train a youngster for a trainer permit as they can practice dry firing unloading etc until they get the swing of it.

Also Good in Shotguns as Double barrels cock on folding you can take the pressure off the spring for storage!

You are correct sir.

FISMA

Vix,
In general, do not dry fire any firearm.

Depending on the design on the firearm, dry firing may not be a problem at all or it may be a serious problem.

In older guns, especially centerfire -NEVER DRY FIRE!!! First, the pin is designed to impact the primer. When there's no primer, the head of the pin does not hit and the body (in general) has to absorb the Force. This was not the design intention. This will at the very least cause the firing pin to deform and can cause other damage, which I have seen first hand.

Also, today's alloys are much better than those of years ago. Many metals become hardened with impact and over time can become more brittle.

Again, modern day firearms like Glock's are designed to overcome this issue. Older firearms, like say a S&W revolver where the pin strikes the frame and a portion (of the pin) protrudes through the frame to strike the primer will be damaged by dry firing.

I wish I could have told you this before, however, the Russian's Baikals are notorious for this problem.

Snap caps are best, spent brass is slightly better than nothing, however, it is not much better. Repeated strikes on the same brass with the same pin lessens the Force on the brass. The other pieces of the gun - frame, firing bolt, or whatever, will then have to do a job they are not supposed to do.

I bought a gun once and there was a problem with a spindle. When I took it to the gunsmith he told me the gun had been dry fired. When I asked the seller if that was true he admitted that as a youngster they used to dry fire it all day. Not only was the spindle messed up, however, the firing pin was clearly elongated.

The older the gun, the more reason NOT to dry fire. When in doubt, do not dry fire.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I wouldn't encourage it. I was told by lots of people that it's bad practice. Weakens the pin or mechanism over time or something, not 100% sure, but I don't do it.

I used to have snap caps but I misplaced them a while back. I rarely used them either way.

Rew

I was examining firing pins from Steyr AUG's as they are easily removable. There is a collar halfway down the pin that limits its forward movement when struck. You can see it in this photo I found online:



Army AUG's would be regularly dry fired. No idea how often the DF change the pins but a couple of them were worn and a sharp metal rim had formed on the collar (what you would expect from metal on metal like that). There was no problem with the rifles operation but was interesting to see. All so considering the design there is nothing to say that it was caused by dry firing either.

Tackleberrywho

Rew wrote: »

I was examining firing pins from Steyr AUG's as they are easily removable. There is a collar halfway down the pin that limits its forward movement when struck. You can see it in this photo I found online:



Army AUG's would be regularly dry fired. No idea how often the DF change the pins but a couple of them were worn and a sharp metal rim had formed on the collar (what you would expect from metal on metal like that). There was no problem with the rifles operation but was interesting to see. All so considering the design there is nothing to say that it was caused by dry firing either.

Mate of mine is a CQ and he says nearly never replace firing pins. They are dry fired more often than they are fired.
Taking out of stores/replacing in stores/handing over to another soldier.
I never had a firing pin problem except on Rimfires, ref an old Krico I had

Rew

Id interested in what an armourer has to say about replacing pins etc as Q's really only send problem rifles they dong get involved in the details.

I reckon it would take a huge about of dry firing to cause a problem with a Steyr form what I could see. Then again they are designed to be robust.

Tackleberrywho

Rew wrote: »

Id interested in what an armourer has to say about replacing pins etc as Q's really only send problem rifles they dong get involved in the details.

I reckon it would take a huge about of dry firing to cause a problem with a Steyr form what I could see. Then again they are designed to be robust.

Well he is good at his job and won six all armies with the aug so he knows them well.
He never signed off something that he did not know what it was he's a real GI Joe if you get me. Gilty Soldier.

Bad ammo/blanks stop AUG's not firing pins.
They have them since 1988 and get dry fired very regularly.

Rew

I don't doubt his credentials but the reality is that those using them and those handing them out of stores are not those repairing them day to day on mass.

I've wondered do they ever change the barrels as well, considering the amount of use and the muzzle velocity of 5.56 you would think they were worn pretty smooth!

Tackleberrywho

Rew wrote: »

I don't doubt his credentials but the reality is that those using them and those handing them out of stores are not those repairing them day to day on mass.

I've wondered do they ever change the barrels as well, considering the amount of use and the muzzle velocity of 5.56 you would think they were worn pretty smooth!

I'll ask my mates in barracks, I know an armour too.
I think no. If you saw the state of some of the rifles with sand paper marks afer sanding off rust.

We were out on the ground for 72hrs a while back and it rained constantly and oil was just washed off after it was applied.

They are not spending any money these days!
So I doubt that they would even consider unless it was safety related parts.
I'm going off thread.

My point is in my experience dry firing is ok in Centrefires.
Rimfire dry fire NO NO!

I base this on my experience, I also dry fire mine before casing as I believe it is good practice to make safe in the army way as it is Almost Idiot proof

Rew

I've seen it all as well

I agree with that assessment of dry firing.

jimbrowning

vixdname wrote: »

Lads,
In ye're opinions is it ok to pull the trigger of a rifle without having a round in it ?
The reason I ask is that many years ago I had a single barrelled Baikal shotgun which I fired a couple of times without a cartridge loaded and after a few times of pulling the trigger the feckin firing pin flew out of it and had to be replaced.
I've read on this forum a few times that some of the lads here often dry fire their rifle so as to get used to taking the shot etc etc and would like to try that method out aswell but have this niggling feeling that when I pull the trigger the firing pin is going to get launched into the grass never to be found again !!!!!
What do you lads think ?

in my opinion, dry firing is a no no with a shot gun apart from semi autos and b/a rifles. s/a shotguns and b/a rifles have the same pin mechanism and r not as brittle as the conventional shotgun (o/u, s/s) if your stil in doubt, keep a spent shell in the chamber. its cheap and you'l get a heap of dry shots off befor it punches a hole in the brass

pedroeibar1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I

My point is in my experience dry firing is ok in Centrefires.
Rimfire dry fire NO NO!

Sorry Tack, not so.;)
I have not waded though all of this string....but it is down to simple metallurgy and it is quite differenet for guns with pins and those with clunky hammers that make contact with the primers. The correct tempering of a firing pin hardens its outside (giving durability), leaving a slightly softer interior (giving strength.) If the inner core temperature gets too high, it will harden the entire firing pin. Metals hardened in this way are brittle and can shatter, (think of hard plastic/soft plastic.) When a firing pin hits a “soft” detonator it de-accelerates slowly, so the shock is not great. If it hits nothing, the shock waves reverberate within the pin and can cause it to shatter. That is why – in the old days - good shotguns and rifles came with snap caps and a little canister containing spare firing pins - it also is why all “best” guns have disc-set strikers.

Same principle applies to the engraving on the side plates on a shotgun; they are hardened by burning carbon (usually bones) on them to harden the outside (molecular transfer and bonding of carbon ions to the surface of the iron) while leaving the inside of the iron softer, thereby giving strength. That also is why you get the funny colours on the expensive hand engraved sideplates of great guns.
So, do not dry fire any shotgun or any gun that has a firing pin.
FWIW,
P.

vixdname

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Sorry Tack, not so.;)
I have not waded though all of this string....but it is down to simple metallurgy and it is quite differenet for guns with pins and those with clunky hammers that make contact with the primers. The correct tempering of a firing pin hardens its outside (giving durability), leaving a slightly softer interior (giving strength.) If the inner core temperature gets too high, it will harden the entire firing pin. Metals hardened in this way are brittle and can shatter, (think of hard plastic/soft plastic.) When a firing pin hits a “soft” detonator it de-accelerates slowly, so the shock is not great. If it hits nothing, the shock waves reverberate within the pin and can cause it to shatter. That is why – in the old days - good shotguns and rifles came with snap caps and a little canister containing spare firing pins - it also is why all “best” guns have disc-set strikers.

Same principle applies to the engraving on the side plates on a shotgun; they are hardened by burning carbon (usually bones) on them to harden the outside (molecular transfer and bonding of carbon ions to the surface of the iron) while leaving the inside of the iron softer, thereby giving strength. That also is why you get the funny colours on the expensive hand engraved sideplates of great guns.
So, do not dry fire any shotgun or any gun that has a firing pin.
FWIW,
P.

Thanks for the info. very interesting.