People With Lots of Academic Qualifications

hinault

Nothing wrong with people accumulating academic qualifications.

I've always admired people who had the discipline and ability to pass academic exams.

I went the professional exam route, myself.

CrazyRabbit

I think this guy is my opposite.

I have lots of experience, training and knowledge, but little official qualifications.

Eg, I'm proficient in 3 programming languages, have worked as a Project Manager and a teacher (in work), but have no formal qualifications for any of these.

Scarinae

Sheeps wrote: »

Congrats on not understanding academia OP.

In fairness to the OP, there are some people who seem to use academic qualifications as a way to put off entering the real world... I know a girl who is doing a PhD part-time in Classics, it's going to take about 7 years and she is spending much of her time having lie-ins, eating cereal and watching TV in her pyjamas. I don't think she particularly wants to do a PhD, just couldn't think of anything else to do with herself, and her parents seem happy to pay for it (??)

stovelid

- Dem students, Joe. It's like some cunt jammed his finger in a typewriter.

- You're telling me, Mary. And we're paying for it all!

IzzyWizzy

--LOS-- wrote: »

That's true alright but even excluding those who study on the side, I really don't get this attitude that they are somehow stuck in college their whole life or that they don't have a "job". Phd students/postdocs, guess what, they get paid for that, it is a job. Lecturers might be viewed more as job holders to the general public than the postgrads/postdocs below them but their teaching is a very small part of what they do, they are basically a higher rank of student. Studying and research is one of the most fundamental jobs there is, the most important I think.

+1

I don't get this attitude in Ireland that academic research isn't a 'real job'. In other countries, people doing PhDs are respected, over here, people think you're a lazy waster. I don't think people have any idea of the work and motivation required to get one. It certainly isn't the easy option. I'm being paid a salary for my part-taught and part-research course, and my ex is earning about 1400 euro monthly as a PhD student. We both study about 8-10 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week.

I don't understand how anyone could have 'too many' academic qualifications. You can never be too educated. I'd rather someone was being paid for research than for sitting on their hole watching Sky.

pickarooney

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

+1
In other countries, people doing PhDs are respected, over here, people think you're a lazy waster.

Do you reckon, or are you just saying that for the hell of it?

piby

Sheeps wrote: »

Congrats on not understanding academia OP.

Actually I understand academia very well. I have lots of friends who are beginning their journey into academia by way of PhDs and whatnot. Perhaps I didn't really explain my position on this very clearly. I actually do agree with the mantra of 'Never Stop Learning' and this is how I would live my life too. I have absolutley no problem with people getting lots of qualifications as long as they are not doing it because:

A) They want to put off the real world forever aka. the professional student

They want to be able to say they've done it rather than having an interest in it i.e. a badge collector

In the instance of the gentleman I was talking to I got the impression it was very much B. Maybe I read this wrong but that was my own understanding of what he was saying.

Perhaps the thread title would have made more sense if I'd have named it 'People Who Get Academic Quals for The Sake of It' :rolleyes:

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I don't get this attitude in Ireland that academic research isn't a 'real job'. In other countries, people doing PhDs are respected, over here, people think you're a lazy waster. I don't think people have any idea of the work and motivation required to get one. It certainly isn't the easy option. I'm being paid a salary for my part-taught and part-research course, and my ex is earning about 1400 euro monthly as a PhD student. We both study about 8-10 hours a day, sometimes 7 days a week.

I don't understand how anyone could have 'too many' academic qualifications. You can never be too educated. I'd rather someone was being paid for research than for sitting on their hole watching Sky.

I don't for one minute believe that either. The many people I know doing PhDs work their ass to the bone, often 6/7 days a week, with little holidays (because it's technically a studentship as opposed to a job!). I have nothing but respect for academics either. It's bloody hard work and it's a long road towards professor! I agree that there's a culture in this country that ties in with our seeming anti-intellectualism that regards doing PhDs as another way of putting off the 'real' world.

I think I've been completely misunderstood here, my fault

Feeona

SugarHigh wrote: »

YOu do know you're allowed to use the same letter more than once?

What? Noe ld m:mad:

IzzyWizzy

pickarooney wrote: »

Do you reckon, or are you just saying that for the hell of it?

No, I just made it up. Of course I reckon so. I haven't lived everywhere in the world, but I definitely think education is respected more on the continent, for example. Here, people seem to think working is the only thing that matters. I know for a fact my Irish family think I'm exactly the same as people who sit at home drinking Dutch Gold because I'm a full time student. It gets on your nerves when you spend all day at college and then work part time (as I was doing until this month) and people treat you like a waster. My relatives in Italy and the US are much more positive about my studies, always asking how it's going, what I'm doing, sending cards for graduations and congratulating me on internships. It's not that I expect that. It's just a really huge difference in the way further education is viewed.

I've also noticed a general attitude of begrudgery towards students in Ireland. I get a lot of people saying 'wait til you get out in the real world', without realising I'm 25 and came back as a mature student. People seem really annoyed when I say I found working life an absolute doddle compared to what I'm doing now, as if that couldn't possibly be true. When I was working, my working day was 8 hours long and I had 2 full days off. I earned enough to be able to go on several trips a year, go out every weekend and still save money. Sure, I might now be able to sit at home in my pyjamas some days, but I'm basically never free. I am always working on something. How many people would work 7 days a week in the 'real world' for about 900 quid a month? I love my studies and I'd like to go further, but it sure as hell isn't the easy route.

pickarooney

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

No, I just made it up. Of course I reckon so. I haven't lived everywhere in the world, but I definitely think education is respected more on the continent, for example.

Where on the continent though, and based on what?

Pittens

Credentialism is certainly more respected on the continent. While I call the guy who works with me Mark even though he is a PHD, in Germany I would call him Herr Doctor. All very confusing in German hospitals.

FruitLover

BSc, SSc :cool:






















(Bronze swimming certificate, Silver swimming certificate )

Pittens

People seem really annoyed when I say I found working life an absolute doddle compared to what I'm doing now, as if that couldn't possibly be true.

My tough engineering degree ( wont mention the college) was way harder than anything I have done at work, and I have worked on the release of significant projects ( which i could name) which had to meet deadlines.

By and large I dont work past 7-8, since I am hopeless at later work, and I can wind down easily enough. In college there was always something on my mind, some project undone, something not studied, feelings that I should - after attending lectures and labs - be studying for something or other.

Of course I went out and got pissed a lot too, but often it was a guilty pissed. Also I worked ( i.e. studied) weekends. Have done that about 2-3 times in my life since.

Work, ftw.

Pittens

Totally depends on the degree and the uni, though.

IzzyWizzy

pickarooney wrote: »

Where on the continent though, and based on what?

France, Germany, Belgium, Spain. Based on the general attitudes I observed towards education and also based on the fact that education counts for a lot more than it does in Ireland. It's commonplace for people to walk into well paid jobs after a degree. The girls I lived with in Spain hadn't worked a day in their lives until they graduated, not even summer or part time work, and they were all working in their field within six months. I know loads of people in Belgium who walked into jobs in the financial sector with good degrees but no work experience. They think it's really strange that in Ireland you spend four years in college and are expected to start at the bottom with everyone else.

I worked in a multilingual call centre for a few months after finishing my degree. Most people there were highly educated, spoke several languages, yet our boss was a 24 year old woman with a Leaving Cert who spoke only English. She got the job because she'd been working in that call centre since she was 17. Almost all the foreign staff said that would never happen at home and they all thought it was quite ridiculous. They expected the boss to be as educated as they were if not more so and they said that in Ireland, people who didn't go to college are rewarded for it and those who did treated like idiots who wasted their time. While I don't agree completely, I think they had a point.

pickarooney

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

France, Germany, Belgium, Spain. Based on the general attitudes I observed towards education and also based on the fact that education counts for a lot more than it does in Ireland. It's commonplace for people to walk into well paid jobs after a degree. The girls I lived with in Spain hadn't worked a day in their lives until they graduated, not even summer or part time work, and they were all working in their field within six months. I know loads of people in Belgium who walked into jobs in the financial sector with good degrees but no work experience. They think it's really strange that in Ireland you spend four years in college and are expected to start at the bottom with everyone else.

My experience is the complete opposite. When I left France after my post-grad there were an estimated 10,000 people with doctorates on the dole and absolutely nobody was hiring graduates. Work experience or friends of Daddy were the only means of getting a job.

There's an elitist respect for graduates of 'grandes écoles' (who invariably have daddies with friends anyway) but this doesn't extend to commoner uni.

I moved to Ireland and walked into a job with a degree but no experience.

I've no anecdotal evidence for Spain, but statistics indicate that the majority of postgrads there are either in the public sector (53%) or on the dole (30%)

Belgian post-grads tend to focus on more industry-relevant subjects, with science and engineering accounting for over 60% of doctorates there. I imagine it's the practical application of their studies rather than respect for their level of qualifications that gets them jobs.

They think it's really strange that in Ireland you spend four years in college and are expected to start at the bottom with everyone else.

I also find that really strange. 'Everybody else' just didn't get a look in any place I was employed in Ireland. A college degree was a minimum requirement. In jobs that have no such requirement, such as call centre work, a degree won't necessarily get you a higher position straight away but I dare say it's the same in any country. It has been in my experience at lease.

Your foreign friends probably did have a valid point. Up until quite recently anyone with a good education working in a call-centre would have been seen as slumming it.

IzzyWizzy

pickarooney wrote: »

My experience is the complete opposite. When I left France after my post-grad there were an estimated 10,000 people with doctorates on the dole and absolutely nobody was hiring graduates. Work experience or friends of Daddy were the only means of getting a job.

There's an elitist respect for graduates of 'grandes écoles' (who invariably have daddies with friends anyway) but this doesn't extend to commoner uni.

I moved to Ireland and walked into a job with a degree but no experience.

I haven't as much personal experience in France but my friends there were saying this. Now, they did go to the Sorbonne and other grandes écoles so there is that prestige. I find that my Trinity degree is seen as prestigious and impresses employers abroad (especially in the US) but in Ireland it's nothing special at all.

As for walking into a job, what field are you in? Was it a good job?

I've no anecdotal evidence for Spain, but statistics indicate that the majority of postgrads there are either in the public sector (53%) or on the dole (30%)

Well, it's not really fair to look at current statistics as the country is a mess for everyone right now. I don't think experience vs education is the issue.

Belgian post-grads tend to focus on more industry-relevant subjects, with science and engineering accounting for over 60% of doctorates there. I imagine it's the practical application of their studies rather than respect for their level of qualifications that gets them jobs.

I knew people who did economics, business, foreign languages and still walked into jobs. That's true about the practical application, but I'm doing a practical course here and people still think it's a doss just because it isn't science related.

I also find that really strange. 'Everybody else' just didn't get a look in any place I was employed in Ireland. A college degree was a minimum requirement. In jobs that have no such requirement, such as call centre work, a degree won't necessarily get you a higher position straight away but I dare say it's the same in any country. It has been in my experience at lease.

Where were you working? If it was somewhere that needed a degree, then of course everyone was a graduate but there are still plenty of jobs where a degree isn't necessarily required, but would come in very handy. In the place I worked, a recent graduate with a solid degree in modern languages could have learned that woman's job in a week and done a much better job.

prinz

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

France, Germany, Belgium, Spain. Based on the general attitudes I observed towards education and also based on the fact that education counts for a lot more than it does in Ireland..

Simple. IMO the education particularly third level you get on the continent (my own experience being particularly Germany) far outstrips the standard applicable here.

meditraitor

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I worked in a multilingual call centre for a few months after finishing my degree. Most people there were highly educated, spoke several languages, yet our boss was a 24 year old woman with a Leaving Cert who spoke only English. She got the job because she'd been working in that call centre since she was 17. Almost all the foreign staff said that would never happen at home and they all thought it was quite ridiculous. They expected the boss to be as educated as they were if not more so and they said that in Ireland, people who didn't go to college are rewarded for it and those who did treated like idiots who wasted their time. While I don't agree completely, I think they had a point.

You dont see it then, I would hire the 24 year old with 7 years experience every time before some spannish or italian with a degree in language/literature/arts.
Just because you have a degree doesnt make you the right person for the job, graduates in Ireland should know that experience will trump your piece of paper everytime.. but experience and a degree trumps experience. Your collegues obviously didnt have it.

That said I'm all for academia, if your so inclined then by all means get yourself educated to educate...... Ive a couple of mates in their 30's still studying and thats what they do, fair play.....

PK2008

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

France, Germany, Belgium, Spain. Based on the general attitudes I observed towards education and also based on the fact that education counts for a lot more than it does in Ireland. It's commonplace for people to walk into well paid jobs after a degree. The girls I lived with in Spain hadn't worked a day in their lives until they graduated, not even summer or part time work, and they were all working in their field within six months. I know loads of people in Belgium who walked into jobs in the financial sector with good degrees but no work experience. They think it's really strange that in Ireland you spend four years in college and are expected to start at the bottom with everyone else.

I worked in a multilingual call centre for a few months after finishing my degree. Most people there were highly educated, spoke several languages, yet our boss was a 24 year old woman with a Leaving Cert who spoke only English. She got the job because she'd been working in that call centre since she was 17. Almost all the foreign staff said that would never happen at home and they all thought it was quite ridiculous. They expected the boss to be as educated as they were if not more so and they said that in Ireland, people who didn't go to college are rewarded for it and those who did treated like idiots who wasted their time. While I don't agree completely, I think they had a point.

I think a big problem in Ireland is that alot of people who get qualifications assume they should somehow be rewarded in industry(I myself have a masters), or that they indeed are 'qualified'. This is not reality though, industry is all about thoise who 'perform' regardless of qualifications.

Obviously for certain jobs you must be qualified as a regulation but you make a big mistake if you think you deserve more than anyone else based on your qaulifications. Nobody deserves anything, use the qualification to make yourself more competitive but realise that work experience is gold and its all baout the value you bring. Sometimes qualifications can become a handicap for a person, they refuse to think outside the text book and get stuck in an 'entitlement mindset'. One of the top executives at the company I work for used to be a welder, who specialised in fixing bicycles, now he successfully oversees multi billion dollar deals/projects.

pickarooney

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

I haven't as much personal experience in France but my friends there were saying this. Now, they did go to the Sorbonne and other grandes écoles so there is that prestige.

The Sorbonne is not a grande école; it's "just" a university.

As for walking into a job, what field are you in? Was it a good job?

I.T. It was the late 90s. Everyone was walking into an overpaid job.

Well, it's not really fair to look at current statistics as the country is a mess for everyone right now. I don't think experience vs education is the issue.

These stats are over a 10 year period to 2008. General unemployment has been around the 10% mark there for the last decade.

I knew people who did economics, business, foreign languages and still walked into jobs. That's true about the practical application, but I'm doing a practical course here and people still think it's a doss just because it isn't science related.

What people? Potential employers or random punters on the street? Are you comparing like with like?

Where were you working? If it was somewhere that needed a degree, then of course everyone was a graduate but there are still plenty of jobs where a degree isn't necessarily required, but would come in very handy.

Degrees rarely come in handy. Outside of very specific fields they're no more than a modicum of proof that you have some intelligence and staying power. I had collegues in my I.T. job with degrees in philosophy, geography and agricultural science who were all in senior positions.

In the place I worked, a recent graduate with a solid degree in modern languages could have learned that woman's job in a week and done a much better job.

Call centre managers, again in my experience, tend to be those with brass necks or good people management skills or very often those who were promoted just to get them away from the phones. The people who 'could' do a much better job generally are, but on the front lines, and getting low pay and abuse from all quarters. This goes for all three countries I've worked in for extended periods.

Gang of Gin

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I'm BCorpL, LLB, LLM, AITI,

And I'm 27

I think it was that kind of boasting that got you in trouble in another thread:rolleyes: There was talk of paying tax, if I recall. And you're the consultant.

IzzyWizzy

meditraitor wrote: »

You dont see it then, I would hire the 24 year old with 7 years experience every time before some spannish or italian with a degree in language/literature/arts.
Just because you have a degree doesnt make you the right person for the job, graduates in Ireland should know that experience will trump your piece of paper everytime.. but experience and a degree trumps experience. Your collegues obviously didnt have it.

That said I'm all for academia, if your so inclined then by all means get yourself educated to educate...... Ive a couple of mates in their 30's still studying and thats what they do, fair play.....

Neither does having some sort-of-relevant experience make you the right person for the job. Having someone in charge of a multilingual team who only speaks English is ridiculous. Having someone trying to tell you stuff about marketing who never studied it is ridiculous, especially when several of my colleagues had marketing degrees and knew way more about it than the boss. It's a hell of a lot easier for a languages graduate to pick up team leading skills than someone who has spent 7 years in a call centre try to understand what the team are saying about her and send e-mails about stuff she doesn't understand. Yes, a degree AND experience is the ultimate winner, but how can graduates get experience if nobody will give them jobs in their field?

ejmaztec

The internet's great for degrees. One day you're as thick as sh1t, and the next you're a genius. The level of smartness just depends on how many multiples of $10 you can afford.

genericguy

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Yes, a degree AND experience is the ultimate winner, but how can graduates get experience if nobody will give them jobs in their field?

i once applied for a job cleaning up rubbish in a block of flats in the south inner city. i had recently finished my undergrad and wanted anything that would help me get on my feet, but the prick rang me back and said

"sorry genericguy, we'd be more looking for someone that can pick up the rubbish, not clone it."

ejmaztec

genericguy wrote: »

i once applied for a job cleaning up rubbish in a block of flats in the south inner city. i had recently finished my undergrad and wanted anything that would help me get on my feet, but the prick rang me back and said

"sorry genericguy, we'd be more looking for someone that can pick up the rubbish, not clone it."

It'll look good in your memoirs.

Pittens

I had collegues in my I.T. job with degrees in philosophy, geography and agricultural science who were all in senior positions.

I actually do have a big problem with that. The real problem is when these guys interview people for technical positions.

stovelid

Pittens wrote: »

I actually do have a big problem with that. The real problem is when these guys interview people for technical positions.

If they're in technical positions on merit, they should be more than able to interview wet-eared technical graduates?

I work in IT (software) and I've known one or two capable people with non-technical qualifications.

PK2008

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Neither does having some sort-of-relevant experience make you the right person for the job. Having someone in charge of a multilingual team who only speaks English is ridiculous. Having someone trying to tell you stuff about marketing who never studied it is ridiculous, especially when several of my colleagues had marketing degrees and knew way more about it than the boss. It's a hell of a lot easier for a languages graduate to pick up team leading skills than someone who has spent 7 years in a call centre try to understand what the team are saying about her and send e-mails about stuff she doesn't understand. Yes, a degree AND experience is the ultimate winner, but how can graduates get experience if nobody will give them jobs in their field?

The 'right' person for a job is the best person available, in this case the girl who had 7 years work experience. She didnt get there by knowing how to speak marketing jargon. Her bosses promoted her cos she knew the place inside out, she knew what to do when the systems went down, she knew what to do when there were too many calls to handle, what reports needed to be filled out, who to talk to about XYZ and how to talk to them etc etc.

But most importantly she knew what was really valuable to her boss and she made sure she delivered it, this is how her performance was measured, not on how many marketing slogans she could reel off.

pickarooney

IzzyWizzy wrote: »

Neither does having some sort-of-relevant experience make you the right person for the job. Having someone in charge of a multilingual team who only speaks English is ridiculous.

Why? The lingua franca of any call centre in an English-speaking country is English.

It's a hell of a lot easier for a languages graduate to pick up team leading skills than someone who has spent 7 years in a call centre try to understand what the team are saying about her and send e-mails about stuff she doesn't understand.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. Some people are naturally given to leading teams, others are not. There is a certain amount of training that can improve it, but experience is of far more use.

If a manager's employees are talking about her behind her back in languages she doesn't understand, the problem there is not one of qualifications, but respect.

Yes, a degree AND experience is the ultimate winner, but how can graduates get experience if nobody will give them jobs in their field?

It can be a vicious circle, but often you have to accept that once you finish college you will have to gain experience any way you can. Your education and natural ability should benefit you in working your way up but shouldn't be, and generally can't be, used as a free pass to a better position.

Look at it this way - if you start off in a low level position and interview for a promotion against someone with fewer qualifications and a similar level of experience, you should be successful provided you're able to convince the interviewer that your individual attributes make you deserving of the job.