Irish Sea Tunnel (Rail Only)

Southsider1

corktina wrote: »

So THATS where 121 class no 134 went to!

Has anyone consulted the union on this? There could be industaerial action!

clear thinking

I'm resurecting this old one in light of Dublin Ports 30 year (or very long term) plan.

The Chunnel puts through 14m tonnes of freight while Dublin Port currently handles 28m tonnes, the bulk of which is via Rotterdam.

The Dublin Port co. claim they don't want to expand again after the current project so a long term plan to handle the additional tonnage is needed.

The Irish sea tunnel could be a viable option in that circumstance?

Markcheese

Sure if yr paying, go on so....

Might be nice to have a tunnel to France too, and while yr at it one to Iceland so we don't run out of cod to go with the chips.....

Capt'n Midnight

clear thinking wrote: »

The Irish sea tunnel could be a viable option in that circumstance?

28 million tonnes

chunnel cost about £11 billion , so call it €28Bn accounting for the distance and depth and interest costs to break even point

That's an extra €100 a tonne on all imports. This is way more than the profit margin on bulk goods like coal , grain , potatoes, salt,


What was the total container traffic to Dublin port from Europe ?

seasicky

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipetitions.com%2Fpetition%2Firish-sea-fixed-crossing%2F&h=pAQEkxKrrAQG_4k_GaLw-zYtEntcrUfhr18fXEaRqra54eA i have also had enough of 8 hour sea crossings and high air faires

NuMarvel

seasicky wrote: »

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipetitions.com%2Fpetition%2Firish-sea-fixed-crossing%2F&h=pAQEkxKrrAQG_4k_GaLw-zYtEntcrUfhr18fXEaRqra54eA i have also had enough of 8 hour sea crossings and high air faires

From the petition:

I think its about time there was a fixed link to northern ireland from the mainland and vice versa

The mainland? Either they mean Britain, in which case the petitioner needs to look up the definition of island, or they mean Europe, in which case a link from Cork or Waterford would be alot shorter, and ergo quicker.

Either way, automatic fails.

BenShermin

Eight hour ferry crossings??? I travelled all the way from London Euston to Dublin Ferryport a few weeks ago in 6 hours 30 minutes by rail and sail.


The only crossings that take eight hours are ones from Dublin/Belfast to Liverpool, and they are mainly aimed at the freight market.

corktina

Have air fares ever been lower? have rail fares tumbled recently?

The only good point is that a link from "Britain" to Northern Ireland wouldn't be paid for by us but we could still use it... I can't think WHY we'd want to travel all the way to the North to cross to Scotland by train , followed by a long journey east across Galloway (or wherever) and then South to anywhere meaningful, but , OP, I've an open mind , convince me.

Richard

BenShermin wrote: »

Eight hour ferry crossings??? I travelled all the way from London Euston to Dublin Ferryport a few weeks ago in 6 hours 30 minutes by rail and sail.


The only crossings that take eight hours are ones from Dublin/Belfast to Liverpool, and they are mainly aimed at the freight market.

I think he means Liverpool (or actually Birkenhead) to Belfast as its the only direct ferry link between England and Northern Ireland.

BenShermin

Richard wrote: »

BenShermin wrote: »

I think he means Liverpool (or actually Birkenhead) to Belfast as its the only direct ferry link between England and Northern Ireland.

It think he's coming from a passenger point of view as no freight driver gives a damn about 8 hour crossings, it gives them a chance for a meal and a sleep. As I said before that Belfast to Liverpool/Birkenhead route is aimed at freight. Also as it's not a valid sailrail route it isn't a cheap option either, it would be easy enough to get a cheaper flight tbh.

Capt'n Midnight

corktina wrote: »

Have air fares ever been lower? have rail fares tumbled recently?

The only good point is that a link from "Britain" to Northern Ireland wouldn't be paid for by us but we could still use it... I can't think WHY we'd want to travel all the way to the North to cross to Scotland by train , followed by a long journey east across Galloway (or wherever) and then South to anywhere meaningful, but , OP, I've an open mind , convince me.

Stranraer, to Carlisle, 106 mi, 2 hours 13 mins
Mull of Kintyre to Carlisle 232 mi, 4 hours 16 mins

Shortest tunnel to UK to Mull of Kintyre
The one to Stranraer is via that Deep Dyke where all the explosives and poison gas left over after WWII is dumped.

Add in the time to get through Belfast to the tunnel, (Dublin to Larne 203 km, 2 hours 18 mins
M1) and the time to get from Carlisle to Manchester too. (117 mi, 2 hours 5 mins )


So fastest way from Dublin to Manchester is 6 hours 36 minutes + tunnel time.
Or if you take an 8 hour ferry from Dublin to Liverpool and drive for 45 minutes.

Or you could drive for 119 mi, 2 hours 16 mins after 1 hour 50 on the ferry.


Point being that no UK tunnel will save you time or distance over a direct crossing to anywhere apart from parts of Scotland that are near to the tunnel.

LordSutch

What about a tunnel between Ireland & Britain via the isle of Man with a station at Ramsey (or Douglas)?
The buffet car could be replenished, passengers could alight for some fresh air and a walk around, then back on the train and off, chuff chuff . .

http://www.manxscenes.com/Dec%2004/9.jpg

Judgement Day

They will need something a bit more modern than that 3ft stock though. I wonder will the "Farmers Arms" at St.Johns reopen in anticipation of the passing trade?

Capt'n Midnight

LordSutch wrote: »

What about a tunnel between Ireland & Britain via the isle of Man with a station at Ramsey (or Douglas)?
The buffet car could be replenished, passengers could alight for some fresh air and a walk around, then back on the train and off, chuff chuff . .

A tunnel to the Isle of Man would be longer than one to Scotland :rolleyes:

Wexford would be the shortest tunnel from ROI to Wales/England

LordSutch

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

A tunnel to the Isle of Man would be longer than one to Scotland :rolleyes:

Wexford would be the shortest tunnel from ROI to Wales/England

I do reaslise that Capt'n, my post was meant to be humerous, (hence the attached picture).

monument

Forget a tunnel, how about this, the train gets onto the ferry:



Upgrade Belfast - Dublin and Holyhead to the West Coast Mainline / High Speed Two (phase 2), and then run trains like this:

Belfast > Dublin Docklands (interchange with Dart Underground) > Dublin Port (no stopping, just on to ferry) > ferry across the Irish Sea > Holyhead > limited or no stop > Manchester

corktina wrote: »

its pure nonsense you are right.Why are we even discussing it?

Because it took 100s of years of discussing it for the Chunnel to be built?

Capt'n Midnight

monument wrote: »

Forget a tunnel, how about this, the train gets onto the ferry:
...
Because it took 100s of years of discussing it for the Chunnel to be built?

1802. http://www.theotherside.co.uk/tm-heritage/background/tunnel.htm


Oh and as for the train, the Baltic has slightly lower tides than we do., you'd need a very very long movable ramp. Plenty of time to change the bogies en-rouge

corktina

monument wrote: »

Forget a tunnel, how about this, the train gets onto the ferry:



Upgrade Belfast - Dublin and Holyhead to the West Coast Mainline / High Speed Two (phase 2), and then run trains like this:

Belfast > Dublin Docklands (interchange with Dart Underground) > Dublin Port (no stopping, just on to ferry) > ferry across the Irish Sea > Holyhead > limited or no stop > Manchester





Because it took 100s of years of discussing it for the Chunnel to be built?

theres ten times the population in the UK and their fixed link to the continent is barely viable,.Gonna take millennia of discussion to build one for us

LordSutch

corktina wrote: »

theres ten times the population in the UK and their fixed link to the continent is barely viable,.Gonna take millennia of discussion to build one for us

More like fourteen times more people in the UK.

I think a bridge would be more realistic (and cheaper) between NI and Scotland.

monument

corktina wrote: »

theres ten times the population in the UK and their fixed link to the continent is barely viable,.Gonna take millennia of discussion to build one for us

Both the tunnel operator and the high speed passenger services companies are in profit:

Eurotunnel swings back to profit with record passengers -- BBC -- 1 March 2012

Eurostar profits up nearly £21m - Indo - March 08 2012

Markcheese

Instead of a super ferry to carry a train( that can't travel on standard Irish track), why not have a ferry that u get on to as a pedestrian and get on the train on the other side to travel on . Novel I know but....

Capt'n Midnight

corktina wrote: »

theres ten times the population in the UK and their fixed link to the continent is barely viable,.Gonna take millennia of discussion to build one for us

CIE did a survey a long time ago , it was on the open uni

and the model they used for journeys was a something like the product of the populations divided by the square of the distance , or maybe it was the square of the relative populations divided by the cube of the distance,

anyway it was a network effect and didn't scale linearly
chunnel is 60 million people connected to 350 million
an irish sea tunnel is 6 million (inc. NI) connected to 60 million BUT it would connect to Wales not to the London. It's not like the Chunnel where the journey time between Paris / Brussels / London is dramatically reduced.

There isn't even a high speed link from Holyhead to London it's a local commuter train full of schoolkids, they days of the boat train have gone. Takes a little over two hours to get to Crewes on the Virgin train and about the same to get to the ferry. Having a true express all the way would save more time than a tunnel.

Bit like Boeings original sonic crusier plans. half the time savings claimed were from building a faster plane and half just by booking better landing slots. Needless to say it's still on the drawing board 20 years later because it offers too little cost-benefit.

Capt'n Midnight

monument wrote: »

Both the tunnel operator and the high speed passenger services companies are in profit:

Eurotunnel swings back to profit with record passengers -- BBC -- 1 March 2012

Eurostar profits up nearly £21m - Indo - March 08 2012

BBC link says

Eurotunnel said it made a net profit of 11m euros (£9.2m) in 2011, compared with a 58m-euro loss in 2010.
...
The company also bought back some of its debt, reducing its interest payments by 5m euros in 2012.

How many billions did it cost to build the chunnel ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1028/1224306622542.html

Pre-tax profits were lower in 2010, at €1.9 million, compared to €2.3 million a year earlier as administration costs affected the bottom line.

At 1.9 million profit a year it will take over 300 years for the Luas to cover the initial construction costs, never mind the extensions or net present value or interest payments.

so yes it's in profit, but only if you ignore all the capital investments

Capt'n Midnight

Markcheese wrote: »

Instead of a super ferry to carry a train( that can't travel on standard Irish track), why not have a ferry that u get on to as a pedestrian and get on the train on the other side to travel on . Novel I know but....

getting the train to meet the ferries is the biggie.
there used to be a hydrofoil on the route, but too expensive to run

LordSutch

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

getting the train to meet the ferries is the biggie.

Anyone remeber 'the Boat Train' from Holyhead to London Euston?

It was a specially allocated train to meet the ferry from Dun Laoghaire, nowadays its all a bit hit and miss, and the boat train is a distant memory.

Markcheese

Wasn't the hydrofoil canned cos it was a bit like a Kilkenny all Ireland special train... A hurling express..... The ship could handle roughish weather , passengers and crew couldn't so it got canceled a lot.... Fair dues to b+I for trying it, in an era of really expensive flights..are any of the fast ferries still on the go from Dublin or rosslare...
I suppose realistically any sort of new link would be mainly for freight, no so time specific.... Passengers will just fly

Capt'n Midnight

LordSutch wrote: »

Anyone remeber 'the Boat Train' from Holyhead to London Euston?

It was a specially allocated train to meet the ferry from Dun Laoghaire, nowadays its all a bit hit and miss, and the boat train is a distant memory.

I was thinking about Holyhead to London boat train.

journey could be done in
1 hour 49 on the ferry + 3 hours odd on the train to London
isn't that bad when you have to arrive at the airport 2 hours early and it takes half an hour to get out of the airport at the far end, when you add in travel time to the airport and costs too.

corktina

Markcheese wrote: »

Wasn't the hydrofoil canned cos it was a bit like a Kilkenny all Ireland special train... A hurling express..... The ship could handle roughish weather , passengers and crew couldn't so it got canceled a lot.... Fair dues to b+I for trying it, in an era of really expensive flights..are any of the fast ferries still on the go from Dublin or rosslare...
I suppose realistically any sort of new link would be mainly for freight, no so time specific.... Passengers will just fly

I once caught the fast ferry in very poor weather. There were loads of kids running round before we sailed raising hell, but i still managed to get my head down, it all went VERY quite once we passed the Fishguard breakwater...

BlueCam

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

BBC link says How many billions did it cost to build the chunnel ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/1028/1224306622542.htmlAt 1.9 million profit a year it will take over 300 years for the Luas to cover the initial construction costs, never mind the extensions or net present value or interest payments.

so yes it's in profit, but only if you ignore all the capital investments

You're reading it wrong. That's 1.9m profit after buying back some of its debt. Given that it's saving 5m on interest alone next year, I imagine it bought back at least 50m of its debt. (The 1.9m, by the way, goes to shareholders as a dividend - Eurotunnel is a company like any other.)

Capt'n Midnight

BlueCam wrote: »

You're reading it wrong. That's 1.9m profit after buying back some of its debt. Given that it's saving 5m on interest alone next year, I imagine it bought back at least 50m of its debt. (The 1.9m, by the way, goes to shareholders as a dividend - Eurotunnel is a company like any other.)

How much did the tunnel cost to build ?

The 68 miles of track on the London side of the tunnel cost £5.8billion to build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_1
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/05/channel-tunnel-rail-link-sold

Two of Canada's largest pension funds, the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan and Borealis, the infrastructure investment arm of the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System (Omers), have paid £2.1bn to operate Britain's only high-speed railway line for the next 30 years. It is the first privatisation deal done by the coalition government as it sets about slashing Britain's record debt.

Not sure what the second paragraph means, but sounds like someone got stung badly
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/light-at-the-end-of-the-channel-tunnel-1637741.html

Delays and disputes with contractors pushed the tunnel's opening date from May 1993 to November 1994, and the cost ballooned from £4.7bn to £9.5bn, of which an eye-watering £8bn was debt.
...
In May 2007, some 87 per cent of shareholders said yes to the plan, tendering their stock in the two companies – one British, one French – that were the old Eurotunnel, for conversion into shares in a new, entirely French "Groupe Eurotunnel". The scheme paid off all senior debt in full, with remaining creditors given shares in a £1.275bn convertible bond, of which £787m was convertible over five years at a 40 per cent premium. Initially, the total shareholder stake was diluted down to just 13 per cent by the scheme, although a warrant issued alongside the new shares, exercisable in 2011, could lift the equity stake to 24 per cent. With the buy-back schemes now under way, the proportion could yet rise higher.

more numbers, lots of money being spent on the debt, of course it will go pearshaped if interest rates rise
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120229007034/en/Groupe-Eurotunnel-SA-UK-Regulatory-Announcement-Groupe

Net profit of €11 million
Interest paid on debt service stable at €211 million
The nominal value of the long term debt less the floating rate notes is €3.6 billion.