Irish Sea Tunnel (Rail Only)

Jim Martin

Is this a feasible project?

It got me thinking with the air travel chaos last week and that this could be a portent of the future!

We need an adequate alternative to air & sea travel.

rameire

it might be easier and cheaper to decrentralise the Irish Government to The Moon.

SeanW

More likely if Icelandic volcanoes became a serious issue, we would put more ferrycraft to sea. There really isn't much traffic between Ireland and the rest of Europe that we couldn't put on an expanded fleet of HSS catmarans. Well, at least as far as the Uk, France and Spain anyway.

Mint Sauce

been discussed many times OP, two major things against it, the sheer cost, and the difference in railway gauge between britain and ireland

other thing would have to consider is route, and method of fuel/power to run such a service, imo it would require a major upgrade of the infracture on this side and improvements on the british side

penexpers

Somebody has been reading Metro Herald (or whatever it's called).

Judgement Day

Some day people are going to wake up and realise that in terms of cities, population etc Ireland is to Europe what the Aran Islands are to Ireland i.e. talk of building tunnels under the Irish sea is utter nonsense. In the meantime on quiet news days paper will never refuse ink.

scudzilla

Maybe we can all get together on Boards, ya know the sort of thing, somebody supplies the concrete, somebody else will chip in a few tonnes of wood, the next guy gives a few days labour.

Sure we'd have a tunnel built in no time, only for Boardsies use though

Run_to_da_hills

We spent 800 years trying to break away from the UK, the last thing we want is a tunnel to join us back up again.

irishguy

Is it really that un feasible ?

If you take a look at the busiest airport routes in europe/world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_busiest_passenger_air_routes

Dublin to London is well up there (Above London Paris). Also there was talk of using Foynes as a deepwater port for container ships from Aisa, as they will not fit into most european ports and transport the goods by rail.

This could have been an IBEC /CIF(Ireland in 2050) idea.

It would be worth looking at, but the likelihood of it happening anytime soon I wouldnt like to bet on.

stop

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We spent 800 years trying to break away from the UK, the last thing we want is a tunnel to join us back up again.

Especially when we have a lovely motorway already linking us to the UK!

Run_to_da_hills

stop wrote: »

Especially when we have a lovely motorway already linking us to the UK!

But that dosen't go as far as the mainland.

Jim Martin

irish-stew wrote: »

been discussed many times OP, two major things against it, the sheer cost, and the difference in railway gauge between britain and ireland

other thing would have to consider is route, and method of fuel/power to run such a service, imo it would require a major upgrade of the infracture on this side and improvements on the british side

I don't think this is a problem - they manage very succesfully between SNCF & RENFE (France & Spain).

I forgot to say route should be Larne - Stranraer proximity for short distance. High Speed Railways from Dublin/Belfast (& hopefully Galway/Limerick/Cork) would make the whole project feasible.

Upgrading infrastructure to make railways here & UK more competitive would be no bad thing with electrified links!

Getting more freight onto the railway would be another bonus!

The Celtic Tiger never really happened, we're light years behind France/Germany/Spain with railway infrastructure! UK's not much better with only the Channel Tunnel HSR link in the 21st Century!

LordSutch

I think a tunnel link to Britain was mooted many years ago, to go from Northern Ireland to Galloway (22 miles approx), sounds like a good idea on paper but how much might it cost :cool: Or what about a bridge to Britain instead? > is twenty two miles too far?

dowlingm

The gauge issue is nothing talgo bogies couldn't solve, like between France and Spain. Alternatively you just transfer containers/passengers as applicable.

As for the cost - how much would it be expressed as a percentage of NAMA? Since NAMA, absurd figures seem a lot more manageable, I find.

steamengine

Jim Martin wrote: »

I don't think this is a problem - they manage very succesfully between SNCF & RENFE (France & Spain).

I forgot to say route should be Larne - Stranraer proximity for short distance. High Speed Railways from Dublin/Belfast (& hopefully Galway/Limerick/Cork) would make the whole project feasible.

Upgrading infrastructure to make railways here & UK more competitive would be no bad thing with electrified links!

Getting more freight onto the railway would be another bonus!

The Celtic Tiger never really happened, we're light years behind France/Germany/Spain with railway infrastructure! UK's not much better with only the Channel Tunnel HSR link in the 21st Century!

If Isambard Kingdom Brunel was around today, he possibly would have already completed such a project - judging by some of his achievements in tunneling. He certainly wasn't short of vision or indeed persuading governments etc. to fund such ventures. As a matter of interest he engineered the rail tunnel complex South of Bray ! If our population were to increase to circa 8 million and above it might give more impetus to the commencement of such a project.

Carawaystick

Jim Martin wrote: »

I don't think this is a problem - they manage very succesfully between SNCF & RENFE (France & Spain).

Have you ever seen the timetable to get from north of Cerbere to south of Portbou? "successfully" isn't a way I'd describe it.

Or maybe you mean the line from Figueras to Perpignan where there's no break of gauge but also no station on the south of the pyrenees - so no trains.

gjim

Jim Martin wrote: »

I forgot to say route should be Larne - Stranraer proximity for short distance. High Speed Railways from Dublin/Belfast (& hopefully Galway/Limerick/Cork) would make the whole project feasible.

Good thinking. A high speed rail link from Dublin to the Scottish lowlands. Just what we need.

BlueCam

Carawaystick wrote: »

Have you ever seen the timetable to get from north of Cerbere to south of Portbou? "successfully" isn't a way I'd describe it.

Or maybe you mean the line from Figueras to Perpignan where there's no break of gauge but also no station on the south of the pyrenees - so no trains.

The Spanish high-speed rail system (AVE) was built to TGV standards, on standard-gauge track. Barcelona-Perpignan is currently under construction. Assuming Ireland did ever decide to built its own high-speed rail system, whether it's connected to the UK or not, there's no doubt they'd build it to the same standards. This wouldn't affect the existing broad-gauge network as high-speed lines are almost always built on dedicated track anyway, similar to new motorways.

SeanW

Camelot wrote: »

I think a tunnel link to Britain was mooted many years ago, to go from Northern Ireland to Galloway (22 miles approx), sounds like a good idea on paper but how much might it cost :cool: Or what about a bridge to Britain instead? > is twenty two miles too far?

That actually sounds halfway reasonable.

dowlingm

There is the small matter of dumped munitions in Beaufort's Dyke.

gar32

There are plans for a train to go transatlantic so 22miles is not so far

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

Cookie_Monster

how is this still getting coverage, it so stupid.

you could pay for enough ferries for the next 200 years with the money they would spend on this.

Infrastructure by the way, not C&T!

corktina

The Volcano wasnt the problem, it was the over-reaction to it that was the problem. Now that lesson has been learned, next time (IF there is a next time...) the reaction will be more measured.

As for a tunnel (or a bridge)...what a cracking idea! We could extend the Limerick trains from Claremorris to run via it.....:D

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

I think a tunnel link to Britain was mooted many years ago, to go from Northern Ireland to Galloway (22 miles approx), sounds like a good idea on paper but how much might it cost :cool: Or what about a bridge to Britain instead? > is twenty two miles too far?

It would be one of the longest bridges in the world if it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_bridges_in_the_world

FlameoftheWest

Jim Martin wrote: »

We need an adequate alternative to air & sea travel.

What is wrong with sea travel that we need an alternative?

As for the tunnel. Technically it is possible, but the tunnel/bridge part would be the easy part. A new international gauge high speed line from Belfast to Dublin would be required and then the Bridge/Tunnel across from the Antrim to Mull of Kyntyre and then it isa lonnnnnnnnnnnng way to the next city Glasgow and through an protected scenic area of huge ecological importance. Not to mention the West on Track types demanding it make a detour to Mayo...

So on just about every level there are major issues which cannot be overcome realistically.

If this was a normal sane country, and Greenies were not deranged lunatics obsessed with Co2 plant food being a toxin, we would have trains running at speed directly to ferry ports for freight and passengers to be taken to the UK by fast ferries.

But alas this country is a nuthouse and the most obvious solutions will alway be ignored.

dynamick

Dublin-London is the worlds busiest air route: 4.6m pax
You would need to have good journey times and high air taxes to compete with air. It would need to be about 2.5 hours or a train doing an average 280km/h

So you'd need the next gen of HSR or the one after. And it ought to be low energy use compared to air.

And there is no tunnel or bridge in the world yet as long as Dublin-Holyhead.

Channel tunnel has been a difficult project to make work and it has closer larger cities.

So not much hope in the next 20 yrs

If the brits were building a HSR network in the UK...
If air travel became expensive...
If tunnelling became far cheaper...
...then that would help.

I think it would make more sense to improve trade links with Belfast first. There must be many higher priority more viable projects than this.

Cookie_Monster

dynamick wrote: »

Dublin-London is the worlds busiest air route: 4.6m pax

really, that's impressive.

dynamick wrote: »

And there is no tunnel or bridge in the world yet as long as Dublin-Holyhead.

oh but there is nearly:

Longest 79km vs about 95km needed.

getting there

Sponge Bob

you cannot have a tunnel between NI and Scotland because it is too DEEP

Chris_5339762

Also the UK would have to build HSR to Holyhead or wherever it comes ashore. Given that a link with Ireland really wouldnt benefit them at all they wouldnt do it.

Also would you trust CIE with a massive undersea tunnel?

donvito99

gar32 wrote: »

There are plans for a train to go transatlantic so 22miles is not so far

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

I say we scrap NAMA and build that!


(And the tunnel would prob work out cheaper)

dRNk SAnTA

gar32 wrote: »

There are plans for a train to go transatlantic so 22miles is not so far

http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-04/trans-atlantic-maglev

Article: "Ah, the costs: Estimates range from $25 million to $50 million per mile."

Cheaper than the Luas!! :pac:

JHMEG

We wouldn't need undersea tunnels if IE could timetable trains to leave after the ferry has arrived.

wildefalcon

A high speed line from Dublin to London, and on to Paris woud be feasable for NAMA money.

Especially if you included the Anglo Irish digout.


The Chinese are building a 50 km bridge across the south china sea at the moment, one of the most storm tossed seas in the world.

With the ever increasing price of hydrocarbon fuels an electrified rail link to the rest of Europe makes some sense, assuming a eurowide super electric grid and wind/hydro/wave/tidal electicity generation.

Obviously not feasible now, but with [new concept in Ireland] foresight and planning it would be in a few years time.

WildeFalcon

dowlingm

One thing about a fixed link would that you could integrate conduit for high speed voice and data (maybe via the service tunnel) - undersea cables have been cut, most recently in the Meditteranean. A bridge or enhanced ferry service might be disrupted for winds or fog, which a tunnel would not be subject to.

Jim Martin

There is currently serious consideration being given for HSR London - Scotland. With HSR Belfast - Dublin, a link across would be a logical extension and would be very competitive with air times and reliability. Also, there wouldn't be the vagaries of weather affecting ferries as has been proven with the Channel Tunnel.

dowlingm

Jim Martin wrote: »

There is currently serious consideration being given for HSR London - Scotland. With HSR Belfast - Dublin, a link across would be a logical extension and would be very competitive with air times and reliability. Also, there wouldn't be the vagaries of weather affecting ferries as has been proven with the Channel Tunnel.

Not really - what's the point in forcing a 300km/h link through the wilds of southwest Scotland and under the former munitions dumping grounds only to have the locals force people onto buses from Lisburn to Dundalk?

FlameoftheWest

Jim Martin wrote: »

HSR Belfast - Dublin, a link across would be a logical extension

Logical how?

oharach

dowlingm wrote: »

Not really - what's the point in forcing a 300km/h link through the wilds of southwest Scotland and under the former munitions dumping grounds only to have the locals force people onto buses from Lisburn to Dundalk?

HSR direct from Lisburn to Newry would act as an 'avoiding line' for Lurgan.

I can say it, I'm originally from there.

gjim

Jim Martin wrote: »

There is currently serious consideration being given for HSR London - Scotland. With HSR Belfast - Dublin, a link across would be a logical extension and would be very competitive with air times and reliability. Also, there wouldn't be the vagaries of weather affecting ferries as has been proven with the Channel Tunnel.

Very competitive? How do you calculate that? The route would be about 1200km from Dublin to London; that's six hours if you've any stops on the way.

Why is anyone even entertaining this tomfoolery?

Why am I even bothering to write this?

oharach

gjim wrote: »

Very competitive? How do you calculate that? The route would be about 1200km from Dublin to London; that's six hours if you've any stops on the way.

Why is anyone even entertaining this tomfoolery?

Why am I even bothering to write this?

He's right. And I really don't think Dublin-North Wales will work either – way too much track across a sparsely populated area, with little conceivable domestic benefit for the British. At least they could do Dublin as part of a bigger plan to link Cardiff and Swansea.

All pie in the sky, however...

dynamick

gjim wrote: »

Very competitive? How do you calculate that? The route would be about 1200km from Dublin to London; that's six hours if you've any stops on the way.

It's about 467km form London to Holyhead by road. Another 100km across the Irish Sea.

So 1200km is more than twice the real distance. The TGV Paris Marseille averages 261 kph. I don't think trains can do much more than 150kph in a tunnel.

It would be hours but it's still not a runner.

steamengine

Leave the HSR idea aside ! How about a single tunnel with a service tunnel for starters - from Bangor to Portpatrick, then along a new railway line to Dumfries then Carlisle and thus the rest of the Network.

Are we a modern European country or not ? Have we got it into our heads that ferries and aircraft are the only practical methods of crossing the sea, when already there are tunnels of these lengths elsewhere in the world ie Japan, Switzerland. Re - Beauforts Dyke - will give rise to a substantial gradient, but Swiss mountain railways have gradients of 1 in 25 approx handled by adhesion traction only locomotives ?

gjim

dynamick wrote: »

It's about 467km form London to Holyhead by road. Another 100km across the Irish Sea.

So 1200km is more than twice the real distance. The TGV Paris Marseille averages 261 kph. I don't think trains can do much more than 150kph in a tunnel.

It would be hours but it's still not a runner.

The guy I responded to was suggesting Dublin-Belfast-Stanraer HSR which would then link to the proposed Glasgow/Edinburgh-London HSR.

Southsider1

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

But that dosen't go as far as the mainland.

So you think the UK is the mainland? What does that make Ireland then? Some offshore enclave?????

Mint Sauce

JHMEG wrote: »

We wouldn't need undersea tunnels if IE could timetable trains to leave after the ferry has arrived.

and if it stopped somewhere near it

DWCommuter

Its okay folks. There's no need for a tunnel.

CIE are working on a teleportation device. They will bring it to planning stage. Unions will express discontent. Then the Government will establish a working group to examine the options. Following that, the TPA will be established taking control away from CIE. But the RPA will object. While all this is going on, West on Track will get 100,000 signatures on a petition demanding teleportation for the west. CIE will give up. The TPA will advance planning and implementation. The RPA will get bogged down on a luas to Lucan. Then under Transport 22, teleportation will begin between Castlebar and Kiltimagh under CIE control. But CIE will eventually scrap the teleportation device for the people of the west and only make it available to teleportspotters in aid of the venusian rock charity.

Yes?:D

SeanW

the depressing thing is I can actually imagine that happening in the year 2200 ...

Jim Martin

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Logical how?

With 300 kph HSR, it's not the distance that counts so much as the time factor! I would have thought that with, say, 170 kph average speed, Dublin - London would be feasible in 4 hrs?

wildefalcon

This is all interesting, but don't forget we are going to spend 5 billion on an underground from Dail Eireann to the airport.

Now THAT's value for money!

WildeFalcon.

LordSutch

Southsider1 wrote: »

So you think the UK is the mainland? What does that make Ireland then? Some offshore enclave?????

I think that he thinks 'Britain' is the mainland, (in relation to NIs position) within the UK

Judgement Day

Southsider1 wrote: »

So you think the UK is the mainland? What does that make Ireland then? Some offshore enclave?????

A failed political entity? A rock in the Atlantic with 5 million alcoholics clinging to it?