BADGERS AND TB

guns4fun

Just wondering if the old myth about badgers passing tb to cattle is true,or was it used as an excuse to hunt them.
Are badgers protected by law.
Not interested in hunting them,just curious.

stevoman

In my line of work it seems that Badgers do carry TB. im not an expert on it or anything, but it seems deer can carry it and spread it to cattle aswell.

Vegeta

Are there more suitable forums for this discussion than Hunting??

guns4fun

Vegeta wrote: »

Are there more suitable forums for this discussion than Hunting??

PROBABLY IS but as a shooter/hunter was just interested as i have not heard about this in a while.

stevoman

Vegeta wrote: »

Are there more suitable forums for this discussion than Hunting??

Nature and Birdwatching??? send it over if you like Veg.

landkeeper

it's never to the best of my knowlege, been scientifically proven that there is transmission from badgers to cattle , but where badgers `have been properly fenced from cattle pasture ie fences buried electric fence 2" off the floor etc the incidence of tb in cattle herds have vanished , the department of agriculture seem convinced that they do and are snaring badgers wholesale across the country and seem intent on wiping out the species inmho :mad:
but let an ordinary m,ember of the public even think about touching one :eek:god forbid never forget the badger has more right than a human being

johngalway

Had a long discussion about this yesterday.

I think they're a factor in spreading bTB. I think they're overly protected, in fact I think protection should be removed - see no danger to their numbers. They cause other hassle such as killing lambs, digging up grass, often large amounts, killing hens. Believe they're implicated in the collapse of the bee population? Stand to be corrected on that though. I don't see any difference between a badger, fox, mink or rabbit.

sfakiaman

Don't know about TB but a friend once called me to bring the gun because something was in his hen house. We opened the door to find a dozen dead hens and a badger. We took the badgers name and told him the local sargent would be informed if he came back!

Tackleberrywho

johngalway wrote: »

Had a long discussion about this yesterday.

I think they're a factor in spreading bTB. I think they're overly protected, in fact I think protection should be removed - see no danger to their numbers. They cause other hassle such as killing lambs, digging up grass, often large amounts, killing hens. Believe they're implicated in the collapse of the bee population? Stand to be corrected on that though. I don't see any difference between a badger, fox, mink or rabbit.

Badgers are protect mammals.
They are now vaccinated by dept of Agri to stop them becoming TB carriers, this has only been started in the past few months.

They hope to stop badgers carrying TB.
Other animals can carry TB. I have only seen TB mostly with breding herds. Dry stock rarely get it if ever. My Bullocks have been TB free for the past 20 years however my neighbors suckler herd were not.

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Badgers are protect mammals.

Not to speak for John but I'm sure he is well aware that they are protected

He was just voicing the question, Why are badgers protected when foxes, rabbits and mink are not?

Don't know very much about badgers myself

pedroeibar1

johngalway wrote: »

.... Believe they're implicated in the collapse of the bee population? Stand to be corrected on that though. I don't see any difference between a badger, fox, mink or rabbit.

The culprit for the bee population collapse is the varoa mite. I have noticed a marked drop in the ordinary bee population in my garden, although there are plenty of bumble bees. I'm hoping that it might be due to a late Spring, but......
Agree with limiting badger numbers, they make a Somme out of a lawn in record time.
P.

Sparks

johngalway wrote: »

They cause other hassle such as killing lambs, digging up grass, often large amounts, killing hens. Believe they're implicated in the collapse of the bee population? Stand to be corrected on that though. I don't see any difference between a badger, fox, mink or rabbit.

Whatever about the rest (and to be honest, I was half-expecting to see them listed as having been on a grassy knoll in Dallas at the end of that list), they've nothing to do with the bees. Firstly, there aren't any badgers in some areas where the bees have gone missing; and secondly, the pathogen causing the bee problems isn't an animal, but low level long term exposure to chemicals which in the short term don't cause harm to the bees (hence their licencing for use in farming). In France, where mass protests by beekeepers got those chemicals banned, the problem has all but vanished. There are other pathogens suspected to be at work as well - varroa mites for example - but this is the very first time I've ever heard of a badger being suspected.

Maybe if the badgers evolved the ability to fly... or we had an Iron Badger running about...

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Whatever about the rest (and to be honest, I was half-expecting to see them listed as having been on a grassy knoll in Dallas at the end of that list), they've nothing to do with the bees. Firstly, there aren't any badgers in some areas where the bees have gone missing; and secondly, the pathogen causing the bee problems isn't an animal, but low level long term exposure to chemicals which in the short term don't cause harm to the bees (hence their licencing for use in farming). In France, where mass protests by beekeepers got those chemicals banned, the problem has all but vanished. There are other pathogens suspected to be at work as well - varroa mites for example - but this is the very first time I've ever heard of a badger being suspected.

Maybe if the badgers evolved the ability to fly... or we had an Iron Badger running about...

I had to show badger dens to Dept Of Agri Rep so I have it on good Authority that in the not so distant future Badgers will be TB free!

landkeeper

I had to show badger dens to Dept Of Agri Rep so I have it on good Authority that in the not so distant future Badgers will be TB free!

with the greatest respect vacinating badgers has has much chance of sucess as eradicating rats from ireland they will do it as a pr exercise that's all it's cost prohibative and a waste of time
the reason the dept is asking for details is so they can send in one of their'trained operatives'to start snaring in your area ,bung down a load of snares and check them every couple of days if they can be bothered .
and just for the record tb makes no distinction regarding drystock or breeding herd the only difference is really that the drystock tend to be around for less time so therfore have less oppertunity to contact it
we have had three breakdowns in drystock in the last 6 years and i have found sick and dying badgers on the farm but i have no intention of letting the dept know that or where the badger setts are QUOTE]

Tackleberrywho

landkeeper wrote: »

I had to show badger dens to Dept Of Agri Rep so I have it on good Authority that in the not so distant future Badgers will be TB free!

with the greatest respect vacinating badgers has has much chance of sucess as eradicating rats from ireland they will do it as a pr exercise that's all it's cost prohibative and a waste of time
the reason the dept is asking for details is so they can send in one of their'trained operatives'to start snaring in your area ,bung down a load of snares and check them every couple of days if they can be bothered .
and just for the record tb makes no distinction regarding drystock or breeding herd the only difference is really that the drystock tend to be around for less time so therfore have less oppertunity to contact it
we have had three breakdowns in drystock in the last 6 years and i have found sick and dying badgers on the farm but i have no intention of letting the dept know that or where the badger setts are QUOTE]

My Neighbours land mearns mine, He had TB in his field i had none, I buried a badger that i found dead on our land. There was cattle in the field and they did not get TB.
I saw the vacinations they were giving the badgers.
When we kept breding stock we had TB, when we changed to dry stock we did not.
My Uncle has had 5-6 locked herds in the past 4 years. they have no badgers on their land! But they have a suckler herd.

I know where all the setts are therefore I know they do not snare. I would not let a person snare an animal.

And with reference to rats, rats are prolific breaders whilst badgers are not.
Most badgers get killed on the road inside the first year, much like foxes.

People had TB where I live and in the same area that animals had TB, yet neighbors had no TB.

I put it to you Sir that there may have been another means by which they contracted it, which remains unknown.

My Fathers herd never contracted TB in the last 35 years, I have just asked him to verify.
We get notifications from dept of Agri every time there is an outbreak.
So I know who in the area gets it.
I have equally seen badgers crossing our land. whilst we had Drystock which we out winter. And NO TB so far so good touch wood!

So I think there is holes in the argument about badgers.

landkeeper

badgers are like most wild mammals territorial therefore just cos your neighbour did'/ didn't get it dosn't mean anything half way across your field may be the invisible (to you) boundry to two different populations of badgers one healthy one not who knows
Belive it or not ,the dept are activly snaring badgers at will in most of the country,just ask some of the wildlife wardens , they need a permit and get local guys to do the snaring , in some areas i know there are f*** all badgers left the setts i pass whilst shooting these days are mostly unoccupied and derelict and unlike foxes they are not travelers so it'll take years for those stocks to reastablish /
here a little light reading for you

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-102854024/badger-cull-can-slash.html

im no great cuddly badger lover belive me i belive that everything has it's place i just don't belive in whole sale slaughter of a secies because it's cheaper to do it than do the alternative
TB well it's impossible to get rid of according to vets, well vets get a huge part of their income from tb testing so have a vested interest in not wiping it out on my opinion
the humble brock get a bad rap for tb just wait till they decide it's coming from the ever growing/spreading deer population and decide on genocide then

oh yes google the' offally badger project ' and see what the department and duchas have been up to on our behalves

Tackleberrywho

landkeeper wrote: »

badgers are like most wild mammals territorial therefore just cos your neighbour did'/ didn't get it dosn't mean anything half way across your field may be the invisible (to you) boundry to two different populations of badgers one healthy one not who knows
Belive it or not ,the dept are activly snaring badgers at will in most of the country,just ask some of the wildlife wardens , they need a permit and get local guys to do the snaring , in some areas i know there are f*** all badgers left the setts i pass whilst shooting these days are mostly unoccupied and derelict and unlike foxes they are not travelers so it'll take years for those stocks to reastablish /
here a little light reading for you

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-102854024/badger-cull-can-slash.html

im no great cuddly badger lover belive me i belive that everything has it's place i just don't belive in whole sale slaughter of a secies because it's cheaper to do it than do the alternative
TB well it's impossible to get rid of according to vets, well vets get a huge part of their income from tb testing so have a vested interest in not wiping it out on my opinion
the humble brock get a bad rap for tb just wait till they decide it's coming from the ever growing/spreading deer population and decide on genocide then

Tell the Vet Dr Noel Browne did it!
I've a fondness for badgers. I think they are an amazing animals.
I'm still not convinced that badgers are the only TB carriers.

And I do believe that they keep slugs snails frogs etc under control and field mice and rats. It's Ironic if The Dept are exterminating a species and TB is still in the area.

landkeeper

then we are in agreement
rats can carry it as can deer and humans the list is long but brock is the easy target cos IF you know how he's easy to find , i could take you to setts that 15yrs ago covered 1/4 acre aand if you sat still could count 15-20 badgers in an evening now they are empty and abandoned
shame

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

Whatever about the rest (and to be honest, I was half-expecting to see them listed as having been on a grassy knoll in Dallas at the end of that list), they've nothing to do with the bees. Firstly, there aren't any badgers in some areas where the bees have gone missing; and secondly, the pathogen causing the bee problems isn't an animal, but low level long term exposure to chemicals which in the short term don't cause harm to the bees (hence their licencing for use in farming). In France, where mass protests by beekeepers got those chemicals banned, the problem has all but vanished. There are other pathogens suspected to be at work as well - varroa mites for example - but this is the very first time I've ever heard of a badger being suspected.

Maybe if the badgers evolved the ability to fly... or we had an Iron Badger running about...

Educate yourself, good man.

http://www.badgers.org.uk/badgerpages/eurasian-badger-30.html

johngalway

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Badgers are protect mammals.
They are now vaccinated by dept of Agri to stop them becoming TB carriers, this has only been started in the past few months.

They hope to stop badgers carrying TB.
Other animals can carry TB. I have only seen TB mostly with breding herds. Dry stock rarely get it if ever. My Bullocks have been TB free for the past 20 years however my neighbors suckler herd were not.

I know badgers are protected, if that's what you're telling me? My point is I see no reason for the level of their protection. I know in the UK they were severely hammered by gassing in the past which I believe is how their protection came about there.

Most things in regard to the Disaster of Agriculture will get a :rolleyes: from me, been dealing with that lot for over a decade and they couldn't find either arse cheek with both hands glued to them.

Tackleberrywho

johngalway wrote: »

I know badgers are protected, if that's what you're telling me? My point is I see no reason for the level of their protection. I know in the UK they were severely hammered by gassing in the past which I believe is how their protection came about there.

Most things in regard to the Disaster of Agriculture will get a :rolleyes: from me, been dealing with that lot for over a decade and they couldn't find either arse cheek with both hands glued to them.

I get ya now John, I'll plead the 5th on the latter lol

fodda

johngalway wrote: »

Educate yourself, good man.

http://www.badgers.org.uk/badgerpages/eurasian-badger-30.html

It isnt wild bees which are the ones which people are so worried about John as they are as far as i know solitary bees.

The bee problem which concerns people is the bees that polinate our plants which are the hive bees which are kept by bee keepers....any animal attacking a hive would be a gonna with in a few minutes.

johngalway

fodda wrote: »

It isnt wild bees which are the ones which people are so worried about John as they are as far as i know solitary bees.

The bee problem which concerns people is the bees that polinate our plants which are the hive bees which are kept by bee keepers....any animal attacking a hive would be a gonna with in a few minutes.

I'm fairly sure wild bees pollinate also, it was them I was referring to, not the hived bees. Though unfamiliar with the sturdiness of man made hives I'm sure brock would have a go if he could get in.

fodda

All insects pollinate but hive bees produce the honey and live in a hive in tens of thousands and can seriously ruin your day if you knock their house about. I dont think any wise animal would chance it, not with the stinging variety we have it would probably mean certain severe injury maybe death?

Sparks

johngalway wrote: »

Educate yourself, good man.
http://www.badgers.org.uk/badgerpages/eurasian-badger-30.html

I did, some time ago. And not just from books by experts, but from talking to guys like this:

http://vimeo.com/8704021
http://vimeo.com/8171238

I'll bet that most people didn't know an Irish company had almost solved the problem!

gentleman jim

fodda wrote: »

All insects pollinate but hive bees produce the honey and live in a hive in tens of thousands and can seriously ruin your day if you knock their house about. I dont think any wise animal would chance it, not with the stinging variety we have it would probably mean certain severe injury maybe death?

fodda have a look at this badger.it will change your mind on them going after bee's and wasp's.www.youtube.com/watch?v=c81bcjyfn6U

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

I did, some time ago. And not just from books by experts, but from talking to guys like this:

http://vimeo.com/8704021
http://vimeo.com/8171238

I'll bet that most people didn't know an Irish company had almost solved the problem!

In fairness to JohnG, Sparks, that is not a great answer and is at best a bit of obfuscation;)

I for one did not know Uncle Brock would have a go at hives or wasps' nests, but then most of the "wild" beehives here (up trees, in roofs, etc.,) would be well out of his reach. I have heard of a fieldmouse entering a hive, being stung to death and then encased in wax to seal off the "problem.":cool:

Beemune has had a lot of PR, their work has been well publicised. The problem for many of the better small Irish R&D companies that then try to launch/go to market is that they cannot sustain the cashburn and get picked off for a song. Alltracel springs to mind.
P.

Sparks

The problem with the idea of badgers causing the loss of bees pedro, is that the bee problem isn't hives being destroyed; it's the colonies simply vanishing with no dead bees, no damage to the hive, nothing. It's called colony collapse disorder, and the general consensus seems to be that the bees get lost when away from the hive because of either the verorra mite or long term exposure to various chemicals. Badgers breaking into a hive is just too rare an occurrence to cause the problem.

johngalway

Sparks wrote: »

The problem with the idea of badgers causing the loss of bees pedro, is that the bee problem isn't hives being destroyed; it's the colonies simply vanishing with no dead bees, no damage to the hive, nothing. It's called colony collapse disorder, and the general consensus seems to be that the bees get lost when away from the hive because of either the verorra mite or long term exposure to various chemicals. Badgers breaking into a hive is just too rare an occurrence to cause the problem.

You're getting a bit ahead of my comments here. I said badgers damage bee's, which they do. I never said badgers are bringing the equivelent of small pox/chicken pox (whichever it was) on blankets to the Indians to bees I didn't mention verorra or colony collapse disorder.

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

The problem with the idea of badgers causing the loss of bees pedro, is that the bee problem isn't hives being destroyed; it's the colonies simply vanishing with no dead bees, no damage to the hive, nothing. It's called colony collapse disorder, and the general consensus seems to be that the bees get lost when away from the hive because of either the verorra mite or long term exposure to various chemicals. Badgers breaking into a hive is just too rare an occurrence to cause the problem.

I said something very similar in post no.11 above, and was the first to mention varoa mite..:P
P.:D:D

John_Rambo

gentleman jim wrote: »

fodda have a look at this badger.it will change your mind on them going after bee's and wasp's.www.youtube.com/watch?v=c81bcjyfn6U

fodda

gentleman jim wrote: »

fodda have a look at this badger.it will change your mind on them going after bee's and wasp's.www.youtube.com/watch?v=c81bcjyfn6U

Yeah great a Honey Badger, i see em all the time around Connemara usually outside the pub in Leenaun after they have had a few pints in between some Spitting Cobra kills and the odd wrestle with a pack of Hyenas:)

They live in Africa !

johngalway

fodda wrote: »

Yeah great a Honey Badger, i see em all the time around Connemara usually outside the pub in Leenaun after they have had a few pints in between some Spitting Cobra kills and the odd wrestle with a pack of Hyenas:)

They live in Africa !

Completely off topic.

Are you going to the walking festival there this weekend? Am signed up for the two days, God help my knees

fodda

No to busy besides i have heard that the mackeral are coming in.:)

johngalway

fodda wrote: »

No to busy besides i have heard that the mackeral are coming in.:)

Lovely stuff! We've to get a bit of work done on the currach yet before we head out this year, haven't got out much past two years.

pedroeibar1

A team of researchers including scientists from UCG has shown mackerel shoals follow some of the same biological "rules" as individuals on boards.ie, a finding that suggests Connemara society operates like a single "superorganism" in terms of its physiology and life cycle.
For more than a century, biologists have marvelled at the highly cooperative nature of Connemaramen, bees and mackerel that work together to determine the survival and growth of a colony.
The social interactions are much like cells working together in a single body, hence the term "superorganism" -- an organism comprised of many organisms, according to Seamus O’Lunasa, Ph.D., an assistant professor in the department of biology at UCGs Dept. of Marine Biology.
Now, researchers from Leitir More, Leitir Mullan and the Albert Einstein College of Codology have taken the same mathematical models that predict lifespan, growth and reproduction in individual organisms and used them to predict these features in whole colonies.
Sparks, of course, does not agree, stating that Badgers should not be buggered, and posits that his analysis of data from 168 different social insect species including ants, termites, bees and wasps, not to mention pollack, bass and mackerel. He finds that the lifespan, growth rates and rates of reproduction of whole colonies of Connemaramen when considered as superorganisms were nearly indistinguishable from individual organisms.
His findings will be published online in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (Early Edition).


Time to turn the key on this one, methinks.:P
P.

Sparks

:P

(Though frankly, if you lot are buggering badgers, it's no wonder knees are wrecked... )

Foxer101

johngalway wrote: »

Had a long discussion about this yesterday.

I think they're a factor in spreading bTB. I think they're overly protected, in fact I think protection should be removed - see no danger to their numbers. They cause other hassle such as killing lambs, digging up grass, often large amounts, killing hens. Believe they're implicated in the collapse of the bee population? Stand to be corrected on that though. I don't see any difference between a badger, fox, mink or rabbit.

Last year i took a few foxes out of my land and not much more then two weeks later a family of badgers had moved into the dens,,

a few weeks ago while out lamping i sat for about 5 mins watching a badger on the lamp(blue filter) he was in around a flock of sheep with lambs and cornered them like a fox would,, Dont know if he'd have killed any though i just whisteld and he took off,, Dont know if that will proove your point though but i pesonally after seeing that would believe you 100%:)

FISMA

guns4fun wrote: »

Just wondering if the old myth about badgers passing tb to cattle is true,or was it used as an excuse to hunt them.

guns4fun,
Last weekend, I had the opportunity to question some of the top food and meat sciences experts in the states. I was anxious as this is one of the questions I wanted to put to rest.

One of the speakers specifically mentioned that badgers do carry TB and can pass it on to cattle.

I questioned him more later and he said that the TB was in the mucous/membranes. Thus, if you had a feeding trough that cattle used and badgers frequent, they could pass the TB through mucous.

If there are any further questions, I bet I could find his email and ask.

Slan

Cass

Dude, Zombie thread.

Closed.