Tebow to the Broncos and related discussion

dougal

frostie500 wrote: »

The team traded away a QB that had shown flashes of being very good and has possibly replaced him with Tebow who isn't going to be as productive as Cutler.

I don't get this Cutler has only ever been productive in losing and throwing INT's. Whatever happens with Tebow you at least are getting a proven winner and with a lot of dedication also. The Jets proved last year that an intelligent QB that doesn't make mistakes can be enough in the NFL.

frostie500

dougal wrote: »

I don't get this Cutler has only ever been productive in losing and throwing INT's. Whatever happens with Tebow you at least are getting a proven winner and with a lot of dedication also. The Jets proved last year that an intelligent QB that doesn't make mistakes can be enough in the NFL.

They traded up to get Tebow when they could have easily got him later. With McDaniels under pressure I don't think Tebow is a risk that they can legitimally take. Bronco fans have to be dissappointed that Cutler and Marshall (both pro bowlers) have been replaced by Tebow and Thomas (as I said Thomas has potential to be great but he will need a few seasons). So I would view it that potentially McDaniels has drafted these players to help the next coach of the Broncos.

By drafting Tebow so high the team has to have him starting down the line and I just don't see that working for them. If they start losing fans and media will start calling for Tebow to play and the last thing he needs is to be rushed onto the field.

As themont said Cutler played at a school that didn't have elite talent around him but he has shown that he has the ability to be a starter in the NFL and perform to a high level. I don't see how any football fan can say that the Broncos have benefited from trading Cutler and now drafting Tebow.

dougal

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Who Sanchez? No mistakes? 20ints and only 12 Tds 10 fumbles 3 of which he lost. The Jets won the games that mattered by not letting Sanchez throw a lot. Had you said smart coaching playing to their QB Strengths I would agree with you but I fail to see where people believe Sanchez had a good season as an individual. The more the Jets ran the ball the Less Sanchez was pressured to throw the ball and better he was.

Where did I say Sanchez had a great individual season?

The point I was making was that the Jets won with Sanchez an obviously "lesser" QB currently than Cutler.
Sanchez was limited but he also made throws when it counted and cut down on his mistakes when it counted too.
Cutler has never done anything when it counted and Tebow has therefore I think the Broncos shouldn't be criticised for going the direction they have.

frostie500

dougal wrote: »

The point I was making was that the Jets won with Sanchez an obviously "lesser" QB currently than Cutler. Cutler has never done anything when it counted and Tebow has therefore I think the Broncos shouldn't be criticised for going the direction they have.

But why would a team intentionally make themselves weaker at the games most pivotal position? It's one thing to win with a lesser QB but quite another to trade away a then pro bowl QB, spend a year with a somewhat functional player in the shape of Orton and then draft a player that will not be effective until two years down the line minimum.

McDaniels, to me, has tied his hands behind his body and given himself extra challenges at each and every step. I think that they gave up an awful lot to trade back into the first round when if they had have waited for the second rounder-or traded up in the second round-for Jimmy Clausen they would have a much more proficent QB for the NFL and one that at least could play and start as a rookie. The team now needs Brady Quinn to be a viable starting option because Tebow is a few years off being a starter in the NFL

tallaghtoutlaws

dougal wrote: »

Where did I say Sanchez had a great individual season?

The point I was making was that the Jets won with Sanchez an obviously "lesser" QB currently than Cutler.
Sanchez was limited but he also made throws when it counted and cut down on his mistakes when it counted too.
Cutler has never done anything when it counted and Tebow has therefore I think the Broncos shouldn't be criticised for going the direction they have.

When you said this:

The Jets proved last year that an intelligent QB that doesn't make mistakes can be enough in the NFL.

This totally implies individual. The fact he got less throws doesn't make him any more intelligent. I questioned the Intelligent bit for that reason and the not making mistakes bit is laughable at best. Sanchez was no where pivotal in helping the Jets. Having him proved nothing. Only two of his games last season at the end of the season did he play well and the coaching staff made it easier for him and put less pressure on him. But that wasn't down to his intelligence.

tallaghtoutlaws

dougal wrote: »

Cutler has never done anything when it counted and Tebow has therefore I think the Broncos shouldn't be criticised for going the direction they have.

When it counted?????? Are you comparing college careers? I can't see how you can compare Cutler and Tebow especially doing anything? Tebow is as yet unproven in the NFL hell he hasn't even played yet. Cutler is a proven NFL QB with a long future ahead of him still. He has the arm he has the mechanics but he right now lacks some direction. Tebow has done nothing compared to Cutler. Cutler is a starting NFL QB Tebow isn't. At this point their college careers are now irrelevant.

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

When it counted?????? Are you comparing college careers? I can't see how you can compare Cutler and Tebow especially doing anything? Tebow is as yet unproven in the NFL hell he hasn't even played yet. Cutler is a proven NFL QB with a long future ahead of him still. He has the arm he has the mechanics but he right now lacks some direction. Tebow has done nothing compared to Cutler. Cutler is a starting NFL QB Tebow isn't. At this point their college careers are now irrelevant.

Cutler's future is very questionable. If he doesn't improve this year on last year's performance I don't see a long future for him. Do you?
And Dougal's point that Cutler has never done anything when it counted is valid. Even though it might have been at college, Cutler has never proven himself to be clutch at any level, Tebow has already proven beyond any doubt that you won't have to worry about his performance dropping in big games and that is valid even if it was in college.
As for you comments regarding Sanchez. He wasn't great in the regular season but he did very well in the postseason as much as I hate to admit anything positive about a Jets' player.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

Cutler's future is very questionable. If he doesn't improve this year on last year's performance I don't see a long future for him. Do you?
And Dougal's point that Cutler has never done anything when it counted is valid. Even though it might have been at college, Cutler has never proven himself to be clutch at any level, Tebow has already proven beyond any doubt that you won't have to worry about his performance dropping in big games and that is valid even if it was in college.
As for you comments regarding Sanchez. He wasn't great in the regular season but he did very well in the postseason as much as I hate to admit anything positive about a Jets' player.

Ryan Leaf did a lot of thing when it counted in College sure as hell meant fook all to him in the NFL. Such a silly argument. As for Cutlers Long term career yes I do see him with a future.

Look Eagle Eye we all know you love Tebow but to be fair doing it all at the college level means fook all at this point because he could still choke in the NFL. I'm not saying he will but he could. Cutler is an NFL QB and a good one at that and as much as I have knocked him in the past myself he is not terrible and is with the Bears of all teams that lack weapons for him to throw to. He also needs direction from proper coaching. Something no QB has gotten in Chicago in a long time.

I can't believe people are trying to say Tebow is already better than Cutler when Tebow has yet to take a fooking snap in the NFL. Denver might now even play him straight away so we could be 1 year min away from knowing if he will ever make it.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

As for you comments regarding Sanchez. He wasn't great in the regular season but he did very well in the postseason as much as I hate to admit anything positive about a Jets' player.

Yes because the Coaching staff didn't put him under pressure to throw as much. The Jets only threw the ball when it was needed and this took pressure off Sanchez to get the ball off. Their running game and their defense were the big difference all season long including the playoffs.

davyjose

Lads, Cutler asked for the trade. He wanted out of Denver, so it's not a case of Tebow V Cutler, it's Tebow V No-franchise-QB.

frostie500

davyjose wrote: »

Lads, Cutler asked for the trade. He wanted out of Denver, so it's not a case of Tebow V Cutler, it's Tebow V No-franchise-QB.

Did Cutler not want out because McDaniels tried to trade for Cassel?

eagle eye wrote: »

Cutler's future is very questionable. If he doesn't improve this year on last year's performance I don't see a long future for him. Do you?
And Dougal's point that Cutler has never done anything when it counted is valid. Even though it might have been at college, Cutler has never proven himself to be clutch at any level, Tebow has already proven beyond any doubt that you won't have to worry about his performance dropping in big games and that is valid even if it was in college.

Eagle Eye do you have any idea just how crap a football school Vandy is? They have had something like two winning seasons in the last 35 years.

He was playing with guys that went there because it is very strong academically. Tebow was playing for a school that has, since Steve Spurriers days, churned out NFL talent and competed for SEC titles and National Championships so I think it may be an oversight on your part to directly compare the relative merits of their college careers and how Cutler never did anything when it counted, for Vandy fans winning in Tennessee must have felt like winning a national title

I was as big a fan as anyone for Tebow as a college QB, it was obviously impressive that he could force his will onto teammates and lead his teams to wins but I don't think that ultimately will translate into the NFL where most players are solely in self survival mode and it becomes less about winning and more about making sure you keep a pay cheque. That isn't solely me speaking, thats what Ross Tucker says nearly every week on SI.com.

I would love to be proven wrong by Tebow but I don't see how, when the Cutler trade is taken into account that this can be taken as a positive drafting decision by the Broncos. Especially when they didnt need to trade back into the first round to get him, they could easily have waited until their early second rounder and taken him or Jimmy Clausen. I think that by taking him in the first they now will be pressured into playing him when Orton struggles

Chucky the tree

Comparing Tebow college career to Cutler nfl is crazy. Look at the amount of players that have been drafted from the Gators the past two years, it's hardly surprising Tebow did so well when he nearly had a team of nfl players in college. How many other vandy players were drafted when Cutler was around?

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Ryan Leaf did a lot of thing when it counted in College sure as hell meant fook all to him in the NFL. Such a silly argument. As for Cutlers Long term career yes I do see him with a future.
I didn't ask you if you see him with a future, I asked you if he has a future if he doesn't improve on last season this year?

As for Ryan Leaf, the guy has major character issues. And his being clutch didn't matter because he never made it. If a QB becomes a consistent starter then it becomes valid.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Look Eagle Eye we all know you love Tebow but to be fair doing it all at the college level means fook all at this point because he could still choke in the NFL. I'm not saying he will but he could. Cutler is an NFL QB and a good one at that and as much as I have knocked him in the past myself he is not terrible and is with the Bears of all teams that lack weapons for him to throw to. He also needs direction from proper coaching. Something no QB has gotten in Chicago in a long time.

There is no way the guy will ever choke at any level. I don't 'love' the guy either. I just look at him as an incredible sportsman with an attitude the like of which only comes along once every generation or so.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

I can't believe people are trying to say Tebow is already better than Cutler when Tebow has yet to take a fooking snap in the NFL. Denver might now even play him straight away so we could be 1 year min away from knowing if he will ever make it.

I didn't say he was better than Cutler. Tebow obviously has to prove himself in the NFL yet. Cutler has proven himself to have the ablility to succeed in the NFL but he has to prove himself all over again now after last year. A year ago I thought the Bears got a great deal, now after seeing him playing for the Bears I just don't know, I think he makes too many bad decisions to ever be a consistent starter.
I can tell you this though, Tebow is the first person I've seen create such a stir in sport and the media since Tiger Woods turned pro in 1996. I fully believe that he will be successful as I liken him to Woods as far as intangibles go.

eagle eye

I won't edit my last post but just to say it wasn't affected by Frostie or Chucky's posts as they weren't posted when I started my reply.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

As for Ryan Leaf, the guy has major character issues. And his being clutch didn't matter because he never made it. If a QB becomes a consistent starter then it becomes valid.

There is no way the guy will ever choke at any level. I don't 'love' the guy either. I just look at him as an incredible sportsman with an attitude the like of which only comes along once every generation or so.

I didn't say he was better than Cutler. Tebow obviously has to prove himself in the NFL yet. Cutler has proven himself to have the ablility to succeed in the NFL but he has to prove himself all over again now after last year. A year ago I thought the Bears got a great deal, now after seeing him playing for the Bears I just don't know, I think he makes too many bad decisions to ever be a consistent starter.
I can tell you this though, Tebow is the first person I've seen create such a stir in sport and the media since Tiger Woods turned pro in 1996. I fully believe that he will be successful as I liken him to Woods as far as intangibles go.

So basically you are comparing the hype around Tebow based on his intangibles and college career over the fact Cutler has done something Tebow has yet to do and that is start as a QB in the NFL. As for the Woods comparison :rolleyes:

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

So basically you are comparing the hype around Tebow based on his intangibles and college career over the fact Cutler has done something Tebow has yet to do and that is start as a QB in the NFL. As for the Woods comparison :rolleyes:

Clearly you didn't read my post properly.

I have never said that Tebow is better than Cutler.

I said that Tebow has proven himself as a clutch performer, Cutler has not.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

Clearly you didn't read my post properly.

I have never said that Tebow is better than Cutler.

I said that Tebow has proven himself as a clutch performer, Cutler has not.

Yes I read your post but I believe you truly do believe Tebow is better than Cutler. From previous posts and even today you have talked about how great Tebow is. You have talked about how great he will be, in fact you have almost guaranteed us in the past. And you have done nothing but say Cutler doesn't have a future in the NFL. So 2+2=4 Eagle Eye. If you weren't comparing them why did you tell me about his intangibles?

One thing I will finish with There is no Fooking way you can compare clutch in college to clutch in the NFL it is that simple. The ability to win an important game in the NFL is on a truly higher plain than College ball and if you think otherwise I have to disagree with your opinion.

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Yes I read your post but I believe you truly do believe Tebow is better than Cutler. From previous posts and even today you have talked about how great Tebow is. You have talked about how great he will be, in fact you have almost guaranteed us in the past. And you have done nothing but say Cutler doesn't have a future in the NFL. So 2+2=4 Eagle Eye. If you weren't comparing them why did you tell me about his intangibles?

One thing I will finish with There is no Fooking way you can compare clutch in college to clutch in the NFL it is that simple. The ability to win an important game in the NFL is on a truly higher plain than College ball and if you think otherwise I have to disagree with your opinion.

The bolded line is flawed.

The ability to perform competently at the NFL level is a much more difficult thing to do than perform to a high standard at college level. The clutch element comes down to the person, if he has the ability to perform to a certain level and continually fails to do it in big games then clearly the player is not clutch. Tebow is definitely clutch, its all about him becoming a consistent, proficient starter. If anything he will get better in bigger games. Tebow hasn't even started a game in the NFL yet, while I believe he will make it, I would never even attempt to say that right now he is better than a guy thats been starting for a couple of years. At some point in the future I do believe that Tebow will be a starter and a very successful one at that.

You still haven't answered my question about Cutler.

I still never said that Tebow is better than Cutler and you have now accused me of that twice. I said that last year I thought that Chicago had gotten a great deal but after watching him last season he made too many bad decisions for my liking. He made a lot of bad decisions in games when at Denver but nothing like as many as he did last year with the Bears. If that continues he will not last long as a starter in the NFL but my point is that he has to improve this season or else. I'm not saying he won't improve, I have a feeling though that his errors will haunt him his whole career, however long that is.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

The bolded line is flawed.

The ability to perform competently at the NFL level is a much more difficult thing to do than perform to a high standard at college level.

You are backing up my argument here :rolleyes:

The clutch element comes down to the person, if he has the ability to perform to a certain level and continually fails to do it in big games then clearly the player is not clutch.

Now that we have established the difference between college football and the NFL. Being clutch in one does not neccessarily translate to the other without actually stepping on the field at the other level and actually doing it at a higher level.

Tebow is definitely clutch, its all about him becoming a consistent, proficient starter.

Again you cannot carry this to the NFL as a statement until he has done it. What happens if he fails in the NFL Eagle Eye is he still a clutch QB at a high level?

You still haven't answered my question about Cutler.

Because you never asked one and I dont give two fooks about Jay Cutler. My point to this whole thing is they inability to compare both QBs until Tebow plays in the NFL and that includes Clutch. Right now whether you like it or not your argument is flawed because Tebow has yet to perform in the NFL so clutch or not in college it wont always translate especially if he fails in the Pros.

jdivision

nobody knows what will happen with tebow and TBH until end of 2013 none of us have a clue how he'll work out. Me, I think he won't but I do love his arm strength and have done since high school (when he went up and destroyed Two a Days in Hoover High). I'm just worried about any QB coming out of Urban Meyer's systems so I think he'll probably fail. Kid has got a warrior's heart though, same as McCoy, so hope they succeed for that.

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

You are backing up my argument here :rolleyes:

What argument am I backing up. I'm saying that its much tougher to be perform at the NFL level, nothing to do with whether a person has the cojones for a big game.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Now that we have established the difference between college football and the NFL.

OK:rolleyes:

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Being clutch in one does not neccessarily translate to the other

Its all about the person not the standard of football when you are talking about clutch ability.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

without actually stepping on the field at the other level and actually doing it at a higher level.

This statement is so blindingly obvious I need proverbial sunglasses to read it. :cool:

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Again you cannot carry this to the NFL as a statement until he has done it. What happens if he fails in the NFL Eagle Eye is he still a clutch QB at a high level?

Clutch QB? A person is either clutch or they are not clutch at any position in any sport.
Cutler has the skills but has never proven himself clutch to this point in his career.
Tebow certainly has clutch ability but he still has to prove that he has the ability to compete at the NFL level.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Because you never asked one and I dont give two fooks about Jay Cutler.

I did ask you twice.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

My point to this whole thing is they inability to compare both QBs until Tebow plays in the NFL and that includes Clutch.

I've never compared both QBs. You have been constantly accusing me of saying that Tebow is better than Cutler. You are the one comparing them as QBs, not me. And you are making up stuff too with your accusations.
We know Tebow is clutch though, if he has the ability to perform at the NFL level is the question we all want answered.

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Right now whether you like it or not your argument is flawed because Tebow has yet to perform in the NFL so clutch or not in college it wont always translate especially if he fails in the Pros.

Yes the argument is flawed as far as comparing an experienced NFL QB with a rookie.
Clutch is a whole different thing though, we know Tebow has that. We don't know if Jay Cutler has it, he has never proven he has it, nor has he proven he doesn't have it.


Now please quit your nonsense of quoting littles bits of posts, quote a full paragraph at least. We can all do what you did as you can see above.;)

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

What argument am I backing up. I'm saying that its much tougher to be perform at the NFL level, nothing to do with whether a person has the cojones for a big game.

Clutch and Cojones are not one in the same thing my friend. So drop that charade.

OK:rolleyes:

Its all about the person not the standard of football when you are talking about clutch ability.

This statement is so blindingly obvious I need proverbial sunglasses to read it. :cool:

Good man trying to be a smartass hows that working out for you?

Clutch QB? A person is either clutch or they are not clutch at any position in any sport.
Cutler has the skills but has never proven himself clutch to this point in his career.
Tebow certainly has clutch ability but he still has to prove that he has the ability to compete at the NFL level.

Yes he is a clutch player that is a QB. Trying to make me look stupid now is that it Eagle Eye? Good man fair play to you. Just to show you the words Clutch and QB are often used together let me provide you with a sample:

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story?id=09000d5d810be7de&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

I did ask you twice.

You never asked me any question. None of your posts contained a question. If you meant the stupid question of do I think Cutler will succeed in the NFL I said yes to it. So you might want to take of those sunglasses there chipetto.

I've never compared both QBs. You have been constantly accusing me of saying that Tebow is better than Cutler. You are the one comparing them as QBs, not me. And you are making up stuff too with your accusations.
We know Tebow is clutch though, if he has the ability to perform at the NFL level is the question we all want answered.

You clearly said in this thread you dont think Cutler has a future in the NFL and you clearly have said on the previous Tebow Thread you think Tebow will become a star in the NFL. That to me states the obvious.

Now please quit your nonsense of quoting littles bits of posts, quote a full paragraph at least. We can all do what you did as you can see above.;)

Yeah Im the one with the nonsense. Good man :rolleyes: Your attempt to belittle my points are nothing short of pathetic. When you get into a debate with someone you always consistently go down the smart ass route and its sad really. But good man Eagle Eye. Good to see you came back to the forum though. Could have sworn you said you were never coming back

themont85

Last few College National Champions Quarterbacks not including this year or last year;

Josh Heupel
Ken Dorsey
Craig Krenzel
Matt Mauck
Matt Leinhert
Vince Young
Matt Flynn
Chris Leak

How many of those are genuine NFL QBs? 2, at most. Certainly I would say Cutler outstrips all of them with NFL performace (VY has done okay but been benched in the past). You can't just say he has won in college so he'll win now, maybe Tebow will but its outragous to compare him to Cutler who played at Vandirbelt. You can't just say cos he won in a rolls royce program where the players around him were elite and he was in the situation to win big games that he'll do well in the NFL.

Indeed I'd be loathe to question the 'clutch' of either as of yet. Cutler hasn't really been in a big game yet. Although he did have a pretty good comeback win total in the NFL before he joined the Bears. Tebow is a 'winner' but how will he cope in the NFL where he won't be able to just beat linebackers into the end zone and will have to make far more throws.

I just think McDaniels is crazy for all these risks he has taken. TBH I subscribe to what some people say about him, he poorly planned on arrival and is combustable. He will be a very good coach eventually but I have been none to impressed with his first year as a players coach

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Yeah Im the one with the nonsense. Good man :rolleyes: Your attempt to belittle my points are nothing short of pathetic. When you get into a debate with someone you always consistently go down the smart ass route and its sad really. But good man Eagle Eye. Good to see you came back to the forum though. Could have sworn you said you were never coming back

You seem to take everything so personally. I'm not trying to belittle you at all, everything I say is either what I believe or truthful.

I don't go down a 'smart ass' route when I'm having a discussion(wouldn't ever call it a debate). I just gave you some of your own medicine there, you took little bits of my post and use them in a way to make things look different than what I actually said. I used all of your post but you can see what happens when its split up like that. So if you want a proper reply, then act the same way yourself.

The question I asked you was this.

If Cutler plays the same this season as last season do you see him having a long future in the game?

As regards your comment about coming back, well all I can say is that after a lot of time to think about it I enjoyed conversing with a lot of people on here so I came back.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

You seem to take everything so personally. I'm not trying to belittle you at all, everything I say is either what I believe or truthful.

I haven't taken anything personal. I dont find anything personal about what people say on a public forum on the internet. I am saying it as I see it.

I don't go down a 'smart ass' route when I'm having a discussion(wouldn't ever call it a debate). I just gave you some of your own medicine there, you took little bits of my post and use them in a way to make things look different than what I actually said. I used all of your post but you can see what happens when its split up like that. So if you want a proper reply, then act the same way yourself.

I took nothing out of context in any of the paragraphs I quoted. Even if it was only one sentence of the paragraph none of it was taken out of context. If you felt it was maybe are taking things personally eh? :rolleyes:

The question I asked you was this.

If Cutler plays the same this season as last season do you see him having a long future in the game?

Yes and I answered this question after you asked it. But had you actually read my posts you would have seen that. But the mad thing is Post #6 on this thread I already answered that question before you asked it. So I guess its clear after accusing me of not reading your posts. its fooking obvious you don't read mine. Post #8 I answered your question.

eagle eye

themont85 wrote: »

Last few College National Champions Quarterbacks not including this year or last year;

Josh Heupel 6th round draft pick - unsuccessful
Ken Dorsey 7th round pick - gave it a good go in fairness
Craig Krenzel 5th round draft pick - unsuccessful
Matt Mauck 7th round pick - unsuccessful
Matt Leinhert 1st round pick - This is his last chance to prove himself
Vince Young 1st round pick - Been called a bust on this site by many but he looked good last season.
Matt Flynn 7th round pick - Currently backing up Aaron Rodgers
Chris Leak Undrafted

How many of those are genuine NFL QBs? 2, at most. Certainly I would say Cutler outstrips all of them with NFL performace (VY has done okay but been benched in the past). You can't just say he has won in college so he'll win now, maybe Tebow will but its outragous to compare him to Cutler who played at Vandirbelt. You can't just say cos he won in a rolls royce program where the players around him were elite and he was in the situation to win big games that he'll do well in the NFL.

Indeed I'd be loathe to question the 'clutch' of either as of yet. Cutler hasn't really been in a big game yet. Although he did have a pretty good comeback win total in the NFL before he joined the Bears. Tebow is a 'winner' but how will he cope in the NFL where he won't be able to just beat linebackers into the end zone and will have to make far more throws.

I just think McDaniels is crazy for all these risks he has taken. TBH I subscribe to what some people say about him, he poorly planned on arrival and is combustable. He will be a very good coach eventually but I have been none to impressed with his first year as a players coach

Who is comparing him to Cutler? Seriously who?
The only thing I've done is say that Cutler was very poor last season and has to prove himself this season. The other thing that I said is that Cutler hasn't proven that he is clutch, but he hasn't proven he isn't either. Tebow has proven he is clutch.

The list you put up is really irrelevant as most of those guys were not expected to make it by anybody. I put their draft details up there in your post. There were two first round picks out of that group, both will be starting next season but Leinhart is very close to being a bust. Vince Young has been called a bust many times on this board but he looked really good last season.
Which of them would you have said is more likely to make it in the NFL. Going on what has been said here about Tebow, I'd imagine that all those who think Tebow won't make it would have been very critical of Vince Young too, and would have had Leinhart down as likely to be a big thing in the league. Up to this point Vince Young has been miles better than Matt Leinhart.

As far as Josh McDaniels goes, well last year I thought the was crazy to get rid of Cutler but after what traspired last season you cannot say it was a bad move.
As for Brandon Marshall, well he got two second round picks for a guy thats one problem away from an NFL suspension, a gifted athlete who is unfortunately an idiot. He only has one year left on his contract so we'll see how he responds to that in Miami. I think McDaniels did really well to get two 2nd rounders for him.

frostie500

eagle eye wrote: »

Who is comparing him to Cutler? Seriously who?
The only thing I've done is say that Cutler was very poor last season and has to prove himself this season. The other thing that I said is that Cutler hasn't proven that he is clutch, but he hasn't proven he isn't either. Tebow has proven he is clutch.

I am comparing him to Cutler, the sole reason being that Tebow has been brought in to replace Cutler as the Broncos franchise QB. That is what he is now that they traded to get back into the first round to draft him.

eagle eye wrote: »

The list you put up is really irrelevant as most of those guys were not expected to make it by anybody. I put their draft details up there in your post. There were two first round picks out of that group, both will be starting next season but Leinhart is very close to being a bust. Vince Young has been called a bust many times on this board but he looked really good last season.

This list can't be irrelevant as it paints a picture of the 'big winners' of the last few years in college football. That seems to be the main point that you believe will make Tebow a success in this league. To be honest the list shows that success in college football doesnt generally translate to the NFL. Quite a few of the last 15 national champions have played in a spread type system and they havent been able to translate their production into the NFL, why would Tebow be different? Except obviously that he always performs in big games

eagle eye wrote: »

As far as Josh McDaniels goes, well last year I thought the was crazy to get rid of Cutler but after what traspired last season you cannot say it was a bad move.
As for Brandon Marshall, well he got two second round picks for a guy thats one problem away from an NFL suspension, a gifted athlete who is unfortunately an idiot. He only has one year left on his contract so we'll see how he responds to that in Miami. I think McDaniels did really well to get two 2nd rounders for him.

Why are you basing so much of your oppinion on Cutler on last year with an incredibly bad offence in Chicago? He had no running game at times and was forced into having to make big throws to poor recievers and Devin Hestor who the more he plays at WR makes you forget he was ever electric. Cutler has four years of starting experience in the NFL and the majority of that time was productive and did well with a Denver team that lacked complement recievers to Marshall. How many QBs do you believe could go into the Bears huddle and be effective?

McDaniels has a lot to prove in year 2 if he is to show that he can lead a team to the Superbowl, I dont see how trading away your best players makes a team stronger

eagle eye

frostie500 wrote: »

I am comparing him to Cutler, the sole reason being that Tebow has been brought in to replace Cutler as the Broncos franchise QB. That is what he is now that they traded to get back into the first round to draft him.

Well fair enough if you want to say that but you can't compare them yet as Tebow hasn't thrown a ball in the NFL.

frostie500 wrote: »

This list can't be irrelevant as it paints a picture of the 'big winners' of the last few years in college football. That seems to be the main point that you believe will make Tebow a success in this league. To be honest the list shows that success in college football doesnt generally translate to the NFL. Quite a few of the last 15 national champions have played in a spread type system and they havent been able to translate their production into the NFL, why would Tebow be different? Except obviously that he always performs in big games

The list is not really useful at all as a lot of those guys, in fact all except two were not expected to make it in the NFL. You can only look at the first round picks(all the rest were late round picks and 1 undrafted) as there is no point in comparing somebody that wasn't expected to make it with somebody who clearly is having been taken in the first round.

The one thing that can be taken from that list is that those 'experts' who claim to know it all really haven't a clue at all. All those experts were high on Matt Leinart and much moreso than they were about Jay Cutler in the same draft, these same guys were not so sure about Vince Young and are discrediting McDaniels for picking Tebow who they say won't make it in the NFL.

frostie500 wrote: »

Why are you basing so much of your oppinion on Cutler on last year with an incredibly bad offence in Chicago? He had no running game at times and was forced into having to make big throws to poor recievers and Devin Hestor who the more he plays at WR makes you forget he was ever electric. Cutler has four years of starting experience in the NFL and the majority of that time was productive and did well with a Denver team that lacked complement recievers to Marshall. How many QBs do you believe could go into the Bears huddle and be effective?

You never blame the receivers for a QBs problems unless they are dropping the ball or afraid of contact or something.
To take the prime example Tom Brady. Look at his superbowl winning receivers, Deion Branch has done nothing since he left the Patriots for big money, Donte Stallworth did nothing in his first season after leaving the Patriots for big money, David Givens got injured very early in his first season after leaving the Patriots but he was off to a really bad start before his career ending injury. David Givens didn't do anything either when he left the Patriots until he hooked up with Drew Brees in New Orleans where suddenly he started looking like the man who had won superbowls. The only one that has done well since moving on is Jabar Gaffney and he was playing for McDaniels who was his OC while he was at the Patriots.

frostie500 wrote: »

McDaniels has a lot to prove in year 2 if he is to show that he can lead a team to the Superbowl, I dont see how trading away your best players makes a team stronger

The Broncos were 29th in total defense in 2008, they were 7th last year. Their offense was the problem last year dropping from 2nd to 15th. Josh McDaniels works with the offense so I'd expect them to improve this year. He was QB coach at the Patriots when Matt Cassel arrived and I've no doubt he knows what he is at with QBs.

It was interesting listening to the draft on ESPN, Kiper was claiming it was an awful pick by McDaniels but John Gruden reckons Tebow is a football player that knows how to get it done and that he will make it. I would take Gruden's advice a lot quicker than I'd take Kipers.

Oh and just as an aside, the same Mel Kiper got 10 first round picks right and that was from his last board on the night before the draft. This is a guy who gets paid to spend the months of February and March doing nothing else but talking and writing about the draft.

themont85

The list is credible. Sorry, all of those guys won multiple games in college. A lot of them with 'clutch' performances, which is what Tebow is been lauded for in college and Cutler not so even though he never had a shot at them (although I read his final pass in CFB was a TD pass to beat Tennesse for the first time since 1982, not bad for that program).

The reason these guys went low in a lot of cases was becuase of the spread. Tebow maybe has a better arm than everyone of them but the questions on his mechanics and ability to read the defense are just as big. He was better and more impactful in college was because he was (1) a louder leader and (2) could beat defenses with his own physicality running. The second is pretty much no go in the pros. The first is why he went too early. He is a great guy and a amazing College player, but higher than Clausen is odd.

The question for the Broncos is, are they better and closer than 15 months ago to the playoffs? That Broncos offense was already brilliant with no running backs. Young line, young receivers, young QB and a good tight end. They needed a defense which to McDaniels credit he went about with Mike Nolan (now gone too :rolleyes:). Now they have got rid of nearly all of those offensive factors. He has improved the RBs depth and the line is still good but he has rebuilt everywhere else. The question for me is that by the time Tebow is ready, if he ever is, will the line still be good? McDaniels imo wasted an oppertunity to have one of the best offenses for the first few years of his tenure. Instead he has bulldozed what they were great at and is rebuliding it. Will he get the time to see it? Marshell won games by himself last year. Some of those wins were lucky in the extreme too. Unless the owner has given him a cast iron 5 year term I can see it ending in tears.

themont85

Devin Hester is a return man who can run straight up the field on fly routes but no much else. Earl Bennett couldn't learn the playbook his first year. Knox was a 5th rounder who was probably their best route runner, but again specilised with the fly due to speed. The only receiver they have is Olsen who was double teamed all year. Tom Brady had competant offensive lines and RBs who could make 2/3 yards when needed. The Bears don't.

Deon Branch actually had some good years since he left the Pats, he has been injured a lot though. Stallworth was at the Browns in fairness.

frostie500

eagle eye wrote: »

Well fair enough if you want to say that but you can't compare them yet as Tebow hasn't thrown a ball in the NFL.

I am comparing them as to which player benefits the Broncos long term, I don't see how Tebow is a step up from Cutler so I think the franchise made a mistake in trading away Cutler and replacing him with Tebow. I don't really understand how anyone can think that for the long term viability of this team they are stronger with Tebow under centre than they would be with Cutler

eagle eye wrote: »

The list is not really useful at all as a lot of those guys, in fact all except two were not expected to make it in the NFL. You can only look at the first round picks(all the rest were late round picks and 1 undrafted) as there is no point in comparing somebody that wasn't expected to make it with somebody who clearly is having been taken in the first round.

The one thing that can be taken from that list is that those 'experts' who claim to know it all really haven't a clue at all. All those experts were high on Matt Leinart and much moreso than they were about Jay Cutler in the same draft, these same guys were not so sure about Vince Young and are discrediting McDaniels for picking Tebow who they say won't make it in the NFL.

Matt Leinart went one place ahead of Cutler in the draft but the comparision to Young may be more suitable. Young was the sole reason Texas won a national title in 05 and for my money is the greatest college player of the last fifteen years-my time watching it. I have taken what the 'draft experts of SI said in 06 about all three:

Matt Leinhart (10)
POSITIVES: Intelligent, high-percentage left-handed passer and considered an outstanding field general. Throws with solid fundamentals from start to finish, patient in the pocket and always in control of the situation. Goes through receiver progressions, consistently looks off the safety and rarely makes poor choices. Cognizant of where receivers are on the field, displays a sense of timing and does not pull the trigger until the last second. Gets outside the pocket, giving himself better field vision, puts touch on throws when necessary and nicely places passes into receivers. hands. Displays stature in the pocket, withstanding the rush and always poised. Offers an adequate deep arm while also displaying the ability to zip shorter throws.

NEGATIVES: Not a quarterback who makes plays with his legs or can escape the rush. Lacks a cannon and cannot drive the deep ball.

ANALYSIS: Polished in all aspects of the game, Leinart is a leader who pushes himself on and off the field. May not fit a vertical offense yet excels in enough areas and offers the intangibles to be a franchise quarterback at the next level.

Jay Cutler (11)
POSITIVES: Athletic prospect with the physical and mental skills necessary to start at the next level. Patient, stands strong in the pocket and immediately finds the open wideout. Displays a sense of timing, throws strikes and hits receivers in stride. Has a quick release and passes immediately to get to the intended target. Poised under pressure, can elude the rush and gets rid of the ball rather than taking a bad sack. Sells the ball fakes, accurate throwing on the move and displays toughness in all aspects of the game. Not afraid to challenge the vertical game and gets the ball through the tight spots.

NEGATIVES: Must improve the consistency of his footwork -- releases the errant pass off his back foot. Made a lot of plays on the college level because of his strong arm. Will force the errant throw into coverage on occasion.

ANALYSIS: A consistent passer who has shown continual development throughout college, Cutler comes off a brilliant senior campaign. Must improve his fundamentals and pass placement but offers all the skills to lead a franchise into the future.

Vince Young (3)
POSITIVES: Sensational athlete with a high upside. Possesses a quick release and can throw all the passes. Sells the ball fakes, withstands the rush and leads receivers between the hashes. Nicely times the outs, loses nothing throwing on the move and improvises when plays break down. Gets the ball downfield with a flick of his wrist. Accomplished carrying the ball, displaying vision, power and speed.

NEGATIVES: Sloppy throwing motion and releases the ball below helmet level at times. Must improve his touch and downfield accuracy. Does not always find the safety and puts the ball up for grabs. Wilts under the rush, making poor choices and leaves the pocket early.

ANALYSIS: A pressure player who performs brilliantly when the game's on the line, Young has the underlying skills to be a franchise quarterback at the next level. Needs a tremendous amount of work from the ground up, yet a perfect choice for a franchise building for the future rather than a team expecting immediate results.

All three were expected to be franchise QBs but they didnt expect Leinart to be better than the others as you claim. The Young comparison to Tebow is relevant though :Needs a tremendous amount of work from the ground up, yet a perfect choice for a franchise building for the future rather than a team expecting immediate results.

I don't think McDaniels has the time to teach Tebow how to be a productive NFL QB and keep his job. That is the main crux that I have with the decision to draft Tebow. I like him as a player but I don't see how the Broncos are better with him under centre rather than Cutler or even Clausen (who I have said elsewhere that I am still on the fence about in relation to his college performances)

eagle eye wrote: »

You never blame the receivers for a QBs problems unless they are dropping the ball or afraid of contact or something.
To take the prime example Tom Brady. Look at his superbowl winning receivers, Deion Branch has done nothing since he left the Patriots for big money, Donte Stallworth did nothing in his first season after leaving the Patriots for big money, David Givens got injured very early in his first season after leaving the Patriots but he was off to a really bad start before his career ending injury. David Givens didn't do anything either when he left the Patriots until he hooked up with Drew Brees in New Orleans where suddenly he started looking like the man who had won superbowls. The only one that has done well since moving on is Jabar Gaffney and he was playing for McDaniels who was his OC while he was at the Patriots.

When so many QBs have failed to perform in the same team, with the same group of receivers I can see a pattern develop. As I said there are very few QBs that could have come in last year and made the Bears an elite team

eagle eye wrote: »

The Broncos were 29th in total defense in 2008, they were 7th last year. Their offense was the problem last year dropping from 2nd to 15th. Josh McDaniels works with the offense so I'd expect them to improve this year. He was QB coach at the Patriots when Matt Cassel arrived and I've no doubt he knows what he is at with QBs.

The NFL is littered with great assistants that couldn't perform as head coaches, McDaniels strikes me as a coach that is struggling to know what a head coach needs to do. He was fantastic as the OC in New England but HC is a totally different job and I don't think he will be given the time in Denver to reap the potential rewards of Tebow down the line. As I said elsewhere the NFL is about self preservation and can you tell me anything that makes him indispensable to the Broncos as things stand?