Are you willing to join Anti-Government Protests?

patrickk

as Argentinians bellowed out during revolution " Que se vayan todos"

simonj

We can, and we should protest. Our current political caste is so corrupt and out of touch we have no other option.

But the only way to effect change is, as Naomi Wolf said, is to get on the streets and stop traffic.

There are other things you can do.

It is your duty, as a concerned citizen, to question the Government, and challenge the Government. Ask questions, look for answers.

The first way to do that is vote, and a lot of people suffered so that we could have that right, so use it - regardless of who you vote for.

Free speech is very important in our society, and the new blasphemy law is a violation of that.

We need to run things, not the politicians, we cannot leave it up to them - we are the agents of change - not the same political dynasties or corrupt officials.

We need to insist that the rule of law is not subverted and abused.
In relation to clerical child abuse this has happened.
Since independence we had no established church, and in 1972 we got rid of the 'special position' of the Catholic church in the constitution.
They need to be treated as a business, and people that those who covered up crimes.
We also need to ask why laws are not enforced in relation to corrupt councillors like Stroke Fahy?

We need to deliberate ourselves, in our councils, with our politicians.
We need to get involved, either by attending meetings or getting involved with politics, if you dont like current dail parties there are alternatives like independents and new parties

We need to insiste on all parties being open and honest - and even if our local representitive is decent and honest, if they are part of a party machine that has been found corrupt - then we cannot in conscience vote for that individual person.

djpbarry

simonj wrote: »

We can, and we should protest. Our current political caste is so corrupt and out of touch we have no other option.

But the only way to effect change is, as Naomi Wolf said, is to get on the streets and stop traffic.

We should stick it to the politicians ..... by pissing off motorists?

simonj wrote: »

We need to run things, not the politicians, we cannot leave it up to them...

So what’s the point in having elected representatives?

maynooth_rules

Would love to, but so many Irish people just don't care and won't go out into the streets. Instead of getting rid of the disgraceful shower that we have, they will bad mouth the opposition and say they are no good

Amhran Nua

djpbarry wrote: »

Ignoring the rest of your hyperbole for just a moment, could you explain how property developers have been 'bailed out'?

We could start with the many properties purchased for social and affordable, in some cases eating up as much as a third of local authority budgets, at 2006 values, which the councils are now trying desperately to offload.

Denerick wrote: »

Can you please explain the following:

A) How did Fianna Fáil cause an international economic crash?

How did Ireland become the I in PIGS?

Denerick wrote: »

How did the policy platforms of FG differ substantially on economic policy with FF over the last 20 years? (How do you deal with the fact that FG were clamouring for a populist slashing of Stamp Duty in the last election?)

Many people wouldn't have much faith in FG either. Their current poll success has more to do with the failures of their competition than any merits they themselves might hold.

Denerick wrote: »

C) What was the alternative to public spending cuts across the board?

Maybe making them back in 2001?

Denerick wrote: »

D) Would you rather us having to call in the IMF?

We wouldn't need to if the deficit hadn't ballooned in the last six years.

Genuinely though, FF is a union for politicians that want to get re-elected, no more, no less. The TDs that get voted in are voted in on the basis of the number of fences they got set up, or the number of parking tickets they made go away, the amount of pot holes filled in, not on their national policies. A lot of them wouldn't know a national policy from a hole in the wall, and they don't care, because most of the voters don't care.

The squeakiest wheel got the grease, and thats the way FF rolls, and thats why we are in the mess we are in today. Even their current policies are putting off the evil day, hopefully until the opposition is in, or preferably forever.

Transfer senior debt to the taxpayer so the markets love us, and keep lending at a decent rate, give in to the unions and use the borrowings to continue paying them, while the additional taxes needed to pay off the banks' gambling debts aren't needed for a few years yet, and done!

This keystone cops-style display would be funny if it wasn't an entire nation on the line.

jmayo

bamboozle wrote: »

yes,

i heard last week more irish people protested against stag hunting that against FF & the banking crisis nama etc etc

That was at the ff lite conference in Waterford.
They want to ban stag hunting affecting one hunt (The Ward Union Hunt) in Meath whose master, or whatever you call him, recently was one of the bailey brothers (now where have we heard that name before) and another prominent member was one caj haughey.

Denerick wrote: »

I'd be willing to protest about the 'coverup' of the banking inquiries, but little else. If the 'mob' had their way Ireland would have defaulted on its debt long ago and half the population would be halfway to England on a boat by now.

I thought you were one of those that was leaving ?

The more I look at the way people in this country are easily broken down on sectional interest grounds, the more it becomes very obvious why it took us 800 odd years to get self determination from our neighbours.

The only protest demand should be for an immediate election.
After that is granted then the parties can lay out their stalls.

Anyway I have now reached the conclusion that the die has been cast.
In the immortal words of Frasier in Dad's Army
"we are doomed, doomed I tell ya"

Our budget deficit is too great and the current government is too paralysed and incompetent to truly tackle it.
They are still playing footsie with the unions.
Sadly any government with Labour may not tackle it either.
The revenue receipts are falling all the time, so even with cuts we are only threading water.
Add in the banking disaster and we are the titantic in it's last hours.

Greece is going to fail, possibly followed by Portugal or Spain, but we are not very far behind.
Maybe then finally a fair chunk of Irish people will get off their ar**s and decide that what goes on in Leinster house should get more attention than whether Rafa gets the boot at Anfield or the love life of jordan.

Maybe then Iirish people will also figure out it is time for the nation to grow up and realise there is not some mythical system that we can screw over and that sooner or later the short term gains cost us big time.

shofukan

Yes.

Pete M.

I would and I will.
There will be protests, lot of them...

danman

I'm planning a very cunning protest.

I really think it will gather steam once it's announced.
You will not see a protest like it.
It will be on Twitter, facebook, bebo, all the sites.

I plan, on a specified date (undecided as yet),to go into my local primary school.
I'm going to get a piece of paper from a nice lady, with lots of names, pictures and boxes.

Then, here comes the cunning part.....

I'm going to put numbers into some of the boxes, fold the paper and put it into a black box.....

Cunning, yet genious.

danman

danman wrote: »

Cunning, yet genious.

yes...genius..

danman

Deleted User wrote: »

yes...genius..

My dyslexia is probably the reason why I'll let someone else organise it.

But it will happen.....!!!!!!!

Pride Fighter

I've been on many anti-government marches in the past 2 years. I'd join my friends in the SWP at first even though I dislike their politics. Recently I've been attending with the Labour party. Its important to exercise my democratic right of peaceful protest. Particularly considering how incompetent Fianna Fail are.

djpbarry

Amhran Nua wrote: »

We could start with the many properties purchased for social and affordable, in some cases eating up as much as a third of local authority budgets, at 2006 values, which the councils are now trying desperately to offload.

Ok, that’s a fair point – perhaps I had incorrectly assumed that NAMA was being referred to.

simonj

djpbarry wrote: »

We should stick it to the politicians ..... by pissing off motorists?

I am afraid the only people that have effected real change, hauliers, taxi drivers etc - have had to resort to this, it is the only way to put pressure on the government, its something that makes the news, and forces them to take quicker action - look at how long the go slow has gone on, with little or no effect

djpbarry wrote: »

So what’s the point in having elected representatives?

Well, considering how many senators are appointed and councillors co-opted, our public representation system is flawed.
They work for us, they should fear us, instead, local candidates virtually disassociate themselves from the party, and we vote for the individual - putting FF or FG back time and time again.

Doing the same thing over and over does not produce a different result

Einhard

I'll make my anti-government protest in the next General Election, in the manner of a democrat living in a democracy. You can't sign up to the principles of parliamentary democracy and then seek to ignore them once they've bcome inconvenient. That's a recipe for short term populism at best, and mob rule at worst, and neither provide a sound model on which to run a society.

Incidentally, all this clamour for revolts and coups d'etat(essentially, that's what mass action with the aim of bringing down a democratically elected government amounts to), might lead one to believe that FF didn't win a mandate in 2007. It would be amusing, if it didn't reflect so badly on the immaturity of our political consciousness, to think that so many of those agitating for the downfall of the current administration actually elected them in the first place. I have no time for FF, but I can at least acknowledge that they more or less gave the masses what they wanted. It wasn't just Fingers Fingleton who disdained regulation for example. Imagine the headlines had the govt c. 2005 moved to restrict access to the property ladder. It would have been the responsible thing to do no doubt, and would have gone some way to mitigate the fiscal crisis we now find ourselves in, but the govt would have been exorciated for it. And then thrown out by the electorate.

We get the government we vote for; we get the policies we deserve. And like it or not, the public were complicit in the policies adopted by successive FF administrations, either directly by voting for FF, or indirectly by not signalling to the other parties that we wanted a more responsible, sustainable direction. Proof of this lies in a comparison of the 2007 manifestos of the top three parties. Scarely a punctuation mark diffrentiates them. There is nothing about regulation, not a whit about slowly deflating the housing bubble, but much about tax breaks and other goodies. Had FG or Labour governed over the past 10 years, they would hardly have done anything differently. That is what has led us to the current situation. And for that, we have ourselves to blame as well as the politicians for whom we voted.

Amhran Nua

Einhard wrote: »

I have no time for FF, but I can at least acknowledge that they more or less gave the masses what they wanted.

Nope, most of the voters weren't aware of much beyond the local level, and thats what TDs pandered to. People voted for TDs not FF. Its a great headless money machine that will always take the easiest route.

As for the protest posts, I wouldn't worry too much about them, thats mostly just the trots and marxists agitating towards their red dawn. It seems sadly ironic that the main impediment to the downfall of the government by popular protest is the existence of these groups whose preferred method of overthrowing a government is popular protest.

Raiser

Einhard wrote: »

I'll make my anti-government protest in the next General Election, in the manner of a democrat living in a democracy. You can't sign up to the principles of parliamentary democracy and then seek to ignore them once they've bcome inconvenient. That's a recipe for short term populism at best, and mob rule at worst, and neither provide a sound model on which to run a society.

Incidentally, all this clamour for revolts and coups d'etat(essentially, that's what mass action with the aim of bringing down a democratically elected government amounts to), might lead one to believe that FF didn't win a mandate in 2007. It would be amusing, if it didn't reflect so badly on the immaturity of our political consciousness, to think that so many of those agitating for the downfall of the current administration actually elected them in the first place. I have no time for FF, but I can at least acknowledge that they more or less gave the masses what they wanted. It wasn't just Fingers Fingleton who disdained regulation for example. Imagine the headlines had the govt c. 2005 moved to restrict access to the property ladder. It would have been the responsible thing to do no doubt, and would have gone some way to mitigate the fiscal crisis we now find ourselves in, but the govt would have been exorciated for it. And then thrown out by the electorate.

We get the government we vote for; we get the policies we deserve. And like it or not, the public were complicit in the policies adopted by successive FF administrations, either directly by voting for FF, or indirectly by not signalling to the other parties that we wanted a more responsible, sustainable direction. Proof of this lies in a comparison of the 2007 manifestos of the top three parties. Scarely a punctuation mark diffrentiates them. There is nothing about regulation, not a whit about slowly deflating the housing bubble, but much about tax breaks and other goodies. Had FG or Labour governed over the past 10 years, they would hardly have done anything differently. That is what has led us to the current situation. And for that, we have ourselves to blame as well as the politicians for whom we voted.

With all due respect - If I disagreed with specific points I'd say so and detail my opposing point of view with supporting arguments.

- Since I disagree with all of the above position, sentiment, arguments, leaps from tenuous stance to suspect conclusion etc. it saves me going to all that effort.....

Einhard

Raiser wrote: »

With all due respect - If I disagreed with specific points I'd say so and detail my opposing point of view with supporting arguments.

- Since I disagree with all of the above position, sentiment, arguments, leaps from tenuous stance to suspect conclusion etc. it saves me going to all that effort.....

With all due respect...

Why is it that this phrase is so often trotted out just before someone goes on to display a complete lack of it??

I find it strange that someone would go to the trouble of informing me of how they completely disagree with a position of mine, and then not bother to explain how or why.

Are you one of those people perhaps who believe that an electorate should bear absolutely no responsibility for the government they elect, and for the governance they demand through their (in)actions?

Certainly FF shoulder the main burden of responsibility for the state we're in, but the fabled "man on the street" has to recognise his role too. If not, then we'll find ourselves in the same position in another 20 years, with the electorate continuing to vote out of short term, opportunistic interest, to the detriement of good governance.

I pretty much disagree completely with the platforms of the Socialist Party, Richard Boyd Barrett etc, but I can at least grudgingly respect them and their supporters for actually putting some thought into their politics and their vote. If more of the electorate took such a stance then maybe we wouldn't be in our current situation.

Einhard

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, most of the voters weren't aware of much beyond the local level, and thats what TDs pandered to. People voted for TDs not FF. Its a great headless money machine that will always take the easiest route.

Agree with you to a point. But no matter how much a support an individual TD might have amongst his contituents, if his party didn't offer the same inducements and promises to the voter as competing parties, he wouldn't be long for the political world. Either way though, it points to degree of political immaturity on the part of a sizeable proportion of Irish voters which goes some way to explaining our current straitened situation.

Raiser

Einhard wrote: »

Are you one of those people perhaps who believe that an electorate should bear absolutely no responsibility for the government they elect, and for the governance they demand through their (in)actions.

What is this? An opinion on collective responsibility? Putting forth a view on individual atonement for the sins of Others? Should we just nod and then humbly accept another 5, 10 or 15 years of destructive, retrograde governance with humility?

What exactly the did "Man on the Street" do to so deserve this horrible indictment you are so anxious to lay on his battered, beaten and weary shoulders?

- Finally, what entitles you to personally apportion blame on individual People as you are now doing in line with whatever criteria you and you alone have considered and judged fit for this task?

djpbarry

Raiser wrote: »

What exactly the did "Man on the Street" do to so deserve this horrible indictment you are so anxious to lay on his battered, beaten and weary shoulders?

He took out a massive mortgage that he could not afford and returned Fianna Fail to government twice, when every economist with half a brain was screaming that our economy was over-reliant on property sales.

Raiser wrote: »

Finally, what entitles you to personally apportion blame on individual People as you are now doing in line with whatever criteria you and you alone have considered and judged fit for this task?

What entitles you to apportion all blame on the government?

Einhard

Raiser wrote: »

- Finally, what entitles you to personally apportion blame on individual People as you are now doing in line with whatever criteria you and you alone have considered and judged fit for this task?

Eh, pretty much the same thing that entitles you to your opinion. Or is your concept of free speech as flawed as your notion of democractic participation?

Should we just nod and then humbly accept another 5, 10 or 15 years of destructive, retrograde governance with humility?

Of course not, but that's what your attitude would condemn us to! We, the people, are the ones vested with the power to make changes, to transform the political system and elect those who govern responsibility, and with an eye to long term stability rather than short term appeasement and gratification. With that power comes responsibility though, and its essential if we are to move forward that we accept our share in the mess created by a party (FF), that we elected not once, not twice, but thrice. How anyboy can find this objectionable is beyond me. Although, perhaps it shouldn't be so surpsrising in a country where personal responsibility is so often an alien concept.

While Bertie was, in many respects, an atrocious manager of the nation, both financially and otherwise, he is a supreme politican. He realised early on that in Ireland, especially during a boom period, a government will only be punished for tacling the difficult issues. Thus the HSE was established and, with the complicity of Unions (representing the Ordinary Man on the Street), nobody was made redundant. Thus real reform was delivered stillborn. Benchmarking was ostensibly about promoting reform in the Public Sector, but in reality was jusy another way of paying off the electorate. The money was paid, reform was refused. Fine Gael poined out the absurdity of this policy, and were punished in the polls for doing so. The electorate wanted an easy ride, greased with the proceeds of an unsustainable housing boom. And that's what they received. Few were pointing out the perils of this, and those who were were ignored, or even told to go and kill themselves! To turn around now and proclaim outrage, without accepting any responsibility for what occurred is hypocrisy, and augers ill for the future of this country. We enabled FF in their actions. The only way we can rectify this and ensure we avoid such pitfalls in the future, is to acknowledge this and determine to use our vote in a responsible manner.

What exactly the did "Man on the Street" do to so deserve this horrible indictment you are so anxious to lay on his battered, beaten and weary shoulders?

I have huge sympathy for what a huge amount of people are going through at the moment. Nobody deserves to lose their job, or their house. I'm unemployed myself so I have first hand expeerience of the former. But suffering does not absolve responsility, and those bearing the burden of this "horrible indictment" had a direct, incontrovertible role in bringing it about in the first place. As I've said, I'm not sure how you can deny this. With all due respect, perhaps if you cared to explain yourself, instead of dismissing my remarks out of hand, I might have a better idea.

*Obviously of course, when I speak of the responsibilty we all share, I'm not speaking of every single voter, but the great mass of the electorate.

Raiser

Einhard wrote: »

Eh, pretty much the same thing that entitles you to your opinion. Or is your concept of free speech as flawed as your notion of democractic participation?

Please! Be fair - The day I come on here, spout my own personal Political views at great and tireless length and then immediately blame People reading my posts for things that I say they have supposedly done, without knowing anyone from Adam will be a long time coming......

Einhard wrote: »

****The remainder****

Einhard you are of course entitled to disagree in an absolute and polar opposite manner with my intentions, stance, aims or beliefs or any other detail - But please don't post on here professing to know what I am about and then refuting phantom points that you have attempted to link in with what I have said that are nothing to do with my points? All you are doing in this is demonstrating either your own stubbornness or inability to grasp the fundamentals.

sceptre

Discussion's veering strongly towards getting mutually personal over the past few posts - as this isn't permitted for good reason, kindly take control of your virtual steering wheels and stay away from that road people. Tackle the ball, not the man.

/mod

moonpurple

sceptre wrote: »

Discussion's veering strongly towards getting mutually personal over the past few posts - as this isn't permitted for god reason, kindly take control of your virtual steering wheels and stay away from that road people. Tackle the ball, not the man.

/mod

thank goodness God reason still applies here

Raiser

moonpurple wrote: »

thank goodness God reason still applies here

Take off yer féckin Sunglasses! - Religion & Spirituality is over here!!!!

Einhard

Raiser wrote: »

Einhard you are of course entitled to disagree in an absolute and polar opposite manner with my intentions, stance, aims or beliefs or any other detail - But please don't post on here professing to know what I am about and then refuting phantom points that you have attempted to link in with what I have said that are nothing to do with my points?

I'm sorry, but as you haven't made a single point over the past few posts, other than to state that you disagree with me, how could I possibly know what you're about? Or attempt to address points which you haven't ye made? I'm not trying to be glib here, but you have made no attempt to debate my points, other than to state that I am wrong, arguing from tenuous beginnings etc. I'm sorry if my posts are too long and involved from you; I'm merely trying to state my position which I don't consider too radical, and undertand your opposition to it. As to our respective opiniosn on the matter, I'm not sure they are plar opposite- both of us want FF out for as long as possible, and a new type of politics and governance in Ireland. I'm at a loss as to how this will happen unless we all take responsibility for our actions at the ballot box.

Raiser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bruton

Wikipedia wrote:

Fine Gael's campaign in the 1981 general election which resulted in another coalition with the Labour Party and with FitzGerald as Taoiseach. Bruton received a huge personal vote in Meath, and at the age of only 34 was appointed Minister for Finance, the most senior position in the Cabinet. The new government had to abandon its election promises to cut taxes in the light of overwhelming economic realities. The government collapsed unexpectedly on the night of 27 January 1982 when Bruton's controversial Budget was defeated in the Dáil. The previously supportive Independent Socialist TD, Jim Kemmy, voted against the Budget, which proposed among other things the introduction of VAT on children's shoes, thus causing the Dáil to be dissolved and Fine Gael to lose power.

I'm not here to debate with anybody at length or in detail - I'm here because I have certain beliefs and feel compelled to be true to them and act accordingly. I believe that it is time for People to take a couple of hours out of their lives occasionally and make it clear to our Superstar, Mega-rich Elite, A-List Politicians that they are in Dail Eireann as our elected representatives and subsequently disrupt their smooth, perfectly orchestrated handling of daily politics and add another element to the game. I believe that small steps can be huge in Politics and public favour can hang precariously in the balance - especially when the staged scene of Politics meet the honesty of Public opinion - Gordon Browns Bigot gaffe is a very recent example, and it has ruined him.

There is so much spin in today's Politics where every tactical piece on the Chess Board has its own subset of Advisers, Spin Doctors, Speech Writers and, to be frank, Liars - Obviously the net result is in the Governments favour. Those in work pay their tax and keep quiet, those out of work claim benefit and shut up - any incidents are 'handled' and any bad news is softened and delivered wrapped in tinsel and sprinkled with icing sugar. In summary while there may well be widespread discontent, its muffled, confined and kept under control.

There should never be a Prime time RTE News broadcast on FF, the HSE, NAMA, ANGLO, without the cameras focussing in on a group of vocal, peaceful protestors who ideally have a well written, concise, salient prepared statement for the media on hand - This statement should negate the efforts of FF/Green to hide their failings and cover up their ineptitude.

I think that right up until this very night People are discussing their discontent daily - but only amongst themselves and all too quietly.

Lets get out there and make our voices heard - Someone please suggest an impending FF/Greens Press Conference, opening, ribbon cutting etc. where the PR and Propaganda can be balanced out by the voices of those who are tired of being 'handled', 'managed' and oh so soothingly lied to.....

Pete M.

Good man Raiser.

Just get out there then. There's plenty of groups trying to organise protests etc. Get involved.

You're right as far as I'm concerned. Time for real change.
Bedamned we'll be if we don't take the opportunity.

djpbarry

Raiser wrote: »

Lets get out there and make our voices heard...

Sounds like a plan. Trouble is, I have absolutely no idea what it is you want us to hear.