Parking /Lay-bys on the Motorway Network: Are They Dangerous?

Tech3

Looking at a recent thread over on skyscrapercity it has come to my attention has the NRA really looked at the safety aspect of the new parking layby's implemented on the newer sections of motorways built in this country.

To me there seems to be absolutely no protection from a HGV or even a car that may veer off to the left and into the parking area. I know that with zero service areas something like this was and is still needed but could they not put a concrete barrier up to prevent any accident from happening as some of these are located on corners of motorways.


Here is a great photo of one taken by csd lately on the M9 at a corner on the motorway.





And one taken by myself on the Nenagh-Birdhill stretch right at the corner of that motorway. The merging/diverging lanes are ridiciously short for a motorway standard road also.








I was on the TF1 lately in Tenerife and here is a concrete barrier seperating parked cars/houses and a local road from the main highway. This runs for kilometers where the parking layby's run for 100m or so then surely it wouldnt cost the NRA much to install some and prevent fatal accidents in the near future?





Apart from the concrete barrier or even armco barrier perhaps, what else can be done to improve the safety of these parking areas on the motorways?

Zoney

I would say that of course they aren't safe. Someone obviously dreamt them up randomly off their own bat and thought they were a good idea. It doesn't look like any sort of serious consideration other than "hey, let's have lay bys" has gone into them.

KevR

On the M6 East of Athlone some of the plastic bollards at a couple of the rest areas have been completely demolished by people driving over them!! :eek:

The Word Is Bor

The real purpose of these lay-byes is for a temporary area for the rozzers to set up their temporary weighbridges for HGV's rather than an actual lay-by.

JohnC.

It's a shame that there are so many people who don't look where they are going for them to be considered dangerous.

Bards

On the Waterford Bypass I saw one driver who took the "Keep Left" quiet literaly as he proceeded to drive through the lay-by there at main carriageway speed thinking it was part of the road:rolleyes:

Poster King

I would consider myself to be a better than average competent and alert driver who adheres to good motorway driving etiquette. I consider these lay-bys to be very dangerous. They are dangerous for people using them and for drivers on the motorway, they are a distraction. Recently on the M4 I was driving towards Dublin at night and all of a sudden out of the pitch dark a cars rear lights came on and a flashing indicator. There is a curve in the road to the right and it appeared for a moment that the car was directly ahead of me so I jammed on my brakes for an instant. Very scary and potentially very dangerous. I had been driving briefly with dipped lights due to an oncoming car and with no cars on the road ahead of me, so the road ahead was no illuminated as well as it would have been had I had full head lights.

The white mini-bollards separating these areas from the motorway have been destroyed on all of these lay-bys that have been in existence for any length of time which proves that vehicles are driving over them

fricatus

Poster King wrote: »

I would consider myself to be a better than average competent and alert driver who adheres to good motorway driving etiquette. I consider these lay-bys to be very dangerous. They are dangerous for people using them and for drivers on the motorway, they are a distraction. Recently on the M4 I was driving towards Dublin at night and all of a sudden out of the pitch dark a cars rear lights came on and a flashing indicator. There is a curve in the road to the right and it appeared for a moment that the car was directly ahead of me so I jammed on my brakes for an instant. Very scary and potentially very dangerous. I had been driving briefly with dipped lights due to an oncoming car and with no cars on the road ahead of me, so the road ahead was no illuminated as well as it would have been had I had full head lights.

The white mini-bollards separating these areas from the motorway have been destroyed on all of these lay-bys that have been in existence for any length of time which proves that vehicles are driving over them

This hasn't happened to me yet, but I can see how it would scare the sh1te out of you!

This is another example of the Irish half-application of rules and tolerance of grey areas. It's charming for the tourists, but on the motorways it could lead to a potentially fatal situation.

The rule I was always taught about motorways was that there's NO STOPPING except in an emergency, and that a phone call, or a child wanting a pee, does not constitute an emergency. Having these parking areas is a dangerous divergence from the rule. There are no huge long distances between interchanges on Irish motorways, so why not put layby stops just off all the interchanges?

csd

As my comments in the M9 thread betray, I think these are very dangerous.

If they're to be kept, at the very least I think there should be a concrete barrier and lighting provided. Oh, and some bins. I think I feel an email to the NRA coming along...

/csd

veryangryman

fricatus wrote: »

This

There are no huge long distances between interchanges on Irish motorways, so why not put layby stops just off all the interchanges?

Athlone-Ballinasloe?
Ballinasloe-Loughrea?
Kinnegad-Enfield?

And thats just Galway-Dublin. Those are decent distances, especially when you consider that most people will have just gone past previous closely seperated junctions and not expect such a yawning gap

Its no excuse to pull over on the hard shoulder to talk to Jim about the piles or whatever, but still its the excuse that the numpties will give

corktina

i think its slow vehicles pulling out of them that would be the most dangerous aspect. Its WRONG to allow stopping in any form on a motorway..
I bet it gives tourists a great laugh!

A good few Uk peeps I know already laugh at our "turn back, wrong way signs" (although they seem loogical to me...

sdanseo

corktina wrote: »

i think its slow vehicles pulling out of them that would be the most dangerous aspect. Its WRONG to allow stopping in any form on a motorway..
I bet it gives tourists a great laugh!

A good few Uk peeps I know already laugh at our "turn back, wrong way signs" (although they seem loogical to me...

They are logical, but the fact remains that if you're stupid enough to go down an off ramp the wrong way you need your licence burned.

Parking areas are dangerous, no question about it - but not irreperably so. All the NRA need to do is lengthen the slip on-off to 300m or so to give room to accelerate, and pop in an armco barrier or better a concrete precast.

I fear it may only get done after some poor family has been scraped off the road though. That said, I'd still stop in one if I needed a piss badly enough

Jayuu

veryangryman wrote: »

Athlone-Ballinasloe?
Ballinasloe-Loughrea?
Kinnegad-Enfield?

And thats just Galway-Dublin. Those are decent distances, especially when you consider that most people will have just gone past previous closely seperated junctions and not expect such a yawning gap

Its no excuse to pull over on the hard shoulder to talk to Jim about the piles or whatever, but still its the excuse that the numpties will give

But if you do need to talk to me about your piles I'll give you my number!
Jim

celticbest

tech2 wrote: »

And one taken by myself on the Nenagh-Birdhill stretch right at the corner of that motorway. The merging/diverging lanes are ridiciously short for a motorway standard road also.

On the M1 NB after Junction 3 Lissenhall & before the new services that are being built there is a similar lay-by in place the as the one above from the OP, however it has gates to stop people entering, it was built about two years after the motorway was opened so it has been there for about 5 years and I have never seen it being used for any purpose, does anyone know what this lay-by is for

Del2005

Kahless wrote: »

It's a shame that there are so many people who don't look where they are going for them to be considered dangerous.

It's the fact that they are unguarded laybys at the side of a high speed road where anything could happen. All it takes is for a car, or worst a HGV, to have a blow out verve across the road and take out anyone who's stopped for a break on the layby to get them closed.

Unfortunately this being Ireland that's what will have to happen, when nearly everyone can see they should have some form of protection.

Lurching

In my experience, (during road construction at least) the more concrete barriers there are on the way in to a place like that, the more people will plough straight into the barriers. As a result, the very thing put in place to stop rogue vehicles ends up being hit by twice that number of motorists trying to navigate around them.
Its actually amazing how stupid even the most competent motorists (myself included) can be. You just have to work on a big road job adjoining current live roads to see how few people read signs for instance.

aquascrotum

I drove Ballinasloe to Dublin last weekend for the first time and couldn't get over these lay-bys being there, for all the reasons outlined on this thread. I thought it was just me being over cautions - this thread has reassured my inner engineering-nerd.

In the space of about 15 miles I had one bloke pulled over for a kip with his legs hanging out the front window, and at the next one I had some dottery oul bint in a 1.0 Micra veering into 120kph traffic from the ridiculous "on-slip".

Disasters waiting to happen imo.

murphaph

it looks to me like the problem here is (as usual) the drivers and not the road. German (unrestricted sections) Autobahns have very similar laybys (though usually with a toilet at least). They cause no problems here.

I suggest that the lad sleeping with his legs out the window is a lot safer than the same driver driving on in a tired state for want of a simple layby to have a short kip.

carlaboi

Hi just wondering can anyone answer this for me.
I drove the M9 to Waterford yesterday and noticed lay bys on the motorway. Why are there lay bys or parking on a motorway?

Sully

Its really just rest spots for truckers. You will often find drivers stop and have a sleep before they carry on the rest of their journey.

Iv used them to simply stretch my legs after a long drive. Very handy!

carlaboi

Yeh I suppose but I always thought your not suppose to stop on a motorway only in an emergency!

Roanmore

Not supposed to stop on the hard shoulder but I think lay by's are different.

Dinkie

I travel a lot for work, and find the laybys invaluable.... I often have 20mins sleep in them if I'm really tired, or just even to get out of the the car and grab something from the boot.

I would have thought that laybys are essential on the motorway seeing as its illegal to pull in on the hardshoulder (except in emergencies)

sdanseo

Unfortunately they're quite badly protected. If a vehicle spills into the layby going 120km/h and you're asleep, the next person you'll see will be St Peter (allegedly :P )

Wouldn't stop in them happily, wouldn't sleep in them EVER.

Bards

can we rename this thread to "Lay-by's on the Motorway Network"

etchyed

Or even "Lay-bys on the motorway network"

Sully

Iv noticed on the Galway to Dublin motorway they have signs saying authorised vehicles only.

Amtmann

Bards wrote: »

can we rename this thread to "Lay-by's on the Motorway Network"

Threads merged.

DWCommuter

Where these lay bys built because the roads were originally just to be HQDC and now we've reclassified them?

sdanseo

DWCommuter wrote: »

Where these lay bys built because the roads were originally just to be HQDC and now we've reclassified them?

Basically yeah. Bit of a shambles given they knew half of them would open as a motorway, kind of beating their own system to avoid fallout from shelving most of the MSAs.

Bah, eventually we'll get our ten MSAs, it's just about when. I'm hedging my bets on 2178.

aujopimur

I reckon the main hazard is the smell of stale piss and the litter in the in the laybys

icdg

They're of dubious legality because you are not allowed stop on a motorway. There are no signs on any of these laybys saying "Motorway Regulations No Longer Apply" (or the crossed-out chopsticks sign which indicates End of Motorway Regulations) so as far as I can see they are still under motorway regulations and so the prohibition on stopping remains in effect!

I know on some motorways they are now signed "Garda Only" or "Emergency Vehicles Only" but in other instances the "P" symbol is still there. AFAIK they are only found on reclassified HQDCs and not on motorways which were built under MOs?

BluntGuy

Disagree with them, but they should probably be left there until (if ever) the MSAs are up and running. In the interim, they could do some inexpensive basic things, like erm... supply a bin perhaps?

GeneHunt

I have to agree that these lay-bys are potentially dangerous for the following reasons

1 – No protection from the mainline (crash barriers are needed concrete barriers are best cos if a vehicle is parked after dark and switches on their light, the barrier will block these lights from the mainline, so not alarming drivers on the mainline)

2 – There location, some are located on the outside of bends, and the slip lane into the layby could confuse a driver and look like the mainline in poor visibility (it need only be for a second, but at 120km/h - that’s over 33 meters per second)

3 – The on and off slip lanes are too short, you need to scrub off a lot of speed on the mainline before entering the layby and you will need to really floor it to get up to speed before rejoining the mainline. a HGV would be lucky to be doing 40km/h went joining the mainline.


I don’t understand why these parking areas couldn’t have been incorporated into a junction layout.

csd

Folks,

I emailed the NRA a while back regarding many of the issues that have been brought up on this thread. I'll summarise their response below.

The design of the parking areas is based on the UK Highway Agency's standard TA 69/07, which provides guidance on the provision, siting, and design of laybys on all-purpose roads (my emphasis). Of course you don't see them being installed on UK motorways (or any other motorways I've driven), but for some reason the standard has been adapted to motorways here. It is available here. The NRA deem that the reflective posts and kerbing are sufficient to prevent accidental vehicular ingress to the parking areas.

On the issue of the legality of parking there (in the absence of 'End of Motorway' signage), well apparently parking on a motorway is permitted under SI 182 of 1997, section 33, which states "a driver shall not park on any part of the motorway, however, this shall not apply in relation to any part of the motorway which is provided for the parking of vehicles or for the provision of services or amenities."

Two other issues I raised were that of people milling about a small car park where vehicles are entering and leaving at high speeds, as well as the lack of litter bins. Apparently people aren't supposed to leave their vehicles at all, so no litter bins are provided, and signage will be erected in telling people to stay in their cars.

Finally, on a more positive note, I was told that the laybys are indeed an interim meausre, pending the rollout of the MSA programme.

Hope this information is useful.

/csd

Amtmann

csd wrote: »

Two other issues I raised were that of people milling about a small car park where vehicles are entering and leaving at high speeds, as well as the lack of litter bins. Apparently people aren't supposed to leave their vehicles at all, so no litter bins are provided, and signage will be erected in telling people to stay in their cars.
/csd

At the parking bays south of M8 junction 9 people have made a track up the embankment presumably to answer the call of nature. Every single time I drive it there are people walking on the embankments. I don't blame these people, but it is laughable that while the infrastructure is so new, people are still reduced to doing this.

Chris_5339762

Yeah these laybys are only there in reality because they were designed HQDCs (all purpose roads so laybys are allowed), but then redesignated motorway. So then they had to look for a loophole to allow them to stay, I reckon.

Stinicker

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yeah these laybys are only there in reality because they were designed HQDCs (all purpose roads so laybys are allowed), but then redesignated motorway. So then they had to look for a loophole to allow them to stay, I reckon.

Drove from Dublin to Kerry yesterday via the M8 and the layby Southbound after the old turnoff at Cullahill is now closed, there was barriers across and nothing parked in there.

Solair

corktina wrote: »

i think its slow vehicles pulling out of them that would be the most dangerous aspect. Its WRONG to allow stopping in any form on a motorway..
I bet it gives tourists a great laugh!

A good few Uk peeps I know already laugh at our "turn back, wrong way signs" (although they seem loogical to me...

They're used in other countries too. I've seen them in the United States and Australia. Certain UK pps seem to find everything not done exactly the same way as they're used to amusing.

veryangryman

Solair wrote: »

They're used in other countries too. I've seen them in the United States and Australia. Certain UK pps seem to find everything not done exactly the same way as they're used to amusing.

I know the feeling.

When living there, there is a certain arrogance about them that every other country should "dance to our tune" or be considered odd. Even among people who are clearly less intelligent.

Guy from Come Dine With Me - prime example. very irritating. We do alot of things better than the UL. Fact that we now have more Motorway per head of population being one of them :cool:

-Corkie-

Furet wrote: »

At the parking bays south of M8 junction 9 people have made a track up the embankment presumably to answer the call of nature. Every single time I drive it there are people walking on the embankments. I don't blame these people, but it is laughable that while the infrastructure is so new, people are still reduced to doing this.

It sounds like your describing the road to beirurt... Its ridiculous. I was going to dublin early the other morning. Foot to the floor still a bit sleepy and a truck exited the lay-by on to the slow lane. I nearly hit him up the arse it all happened so quick.....:o

whyulittle

Saw one idiot one day for whatever reason, pulled in at the exit end of the lay-by, so did all of their slowing down in the driving lane.

hmmm

whyulittle wrote: »

Saw one idiot one day for whatever reason, pulled in at the exit end of the lay-by, so did all of their slowing down in the driving lane.

I regularly see people joining the N11 at Kilmacanogue by stopping on the sliproad, indicating and pulling out at 5 mph. While we still have these sorts of idiots on our roads, laybys on motorways will be lethal.

Worse, when someone is inevitably in an accident the Irish solution will be to put a speed limit on that section.

Solair

It's hardly surprising when 99.9% of drivers in Ireland had no formal training in how to use a motorway/dual carriageway.

It's just assumed that we somehow absorbed the rules of motorway driving by osmosis !

JupiterKid

I think these laybys are a hangover from the design spec for the HQDCs which were later redesignated to motorway. They are dangerous IMO for the reasons given by the others above.

However, given the lack of MSAs the laybys are useful as stopping/resting points. Perhaps the NRA could upgrade a few of these by extending the slip lanes and adding a concrete barrier between the layby and the mainline of the motorway?

Also, extending the surface of the layby further off the road onto the sides would make them safer and less vulnerable to being hit by motorway traffic. Maybe on a few of them bins and toilets could be provided? Unless this is done I fear a tragic accident will happen.

I've seen those hokey little "bollard" things knocked over on the divider strips betwen the laybys and mainline, so cars must be driving over them.

freighter

I drive a lorry and never use these lay-bys. Its impossible to build up good speed before you merge with traffic if you are loaded. I use them at night only if a man wanted to strain the spuds. The road is quieter then and you can see the lights coming.

cooltown

Yes! I saw a guy in a silver Audi A4 under-taking traffic in lane 1 and lane 2 using it!

etchyed

cooltown wrote: »

Yes! I saw a guy in a silver Audi A4 under-taking traffic in lane 1 and lane 2 using it!

Jesus Christ. Of all the posts about bad driving I've seen on Boards, this one takes the prize.

Jayuu

I did pull into one on the M6 a couple of weeks back because I needed to make an urgent phone call. For that alone I suppose it was helpful to have a formal stop area as opposed to just pulling into the hard shoulder.

However when I had finished my quick call I went to pull out only to discover that there was a car stopped in the exit lane, making it impossible to leave because of the bollards. The driver was standing beside it having a cigarette. It was impossible to get by him and while he did finish his cigarette he wasn't in any particular hurry to actually leave the area.

I couldn't work out why anybody would drive beyond the actual parking area and then stop but as we've noted here sometimes there's just explaining what Irish drivers are thinking.

sesna

Along the M6 to Galway, just before Athlone, alot of these lay-bys have high kerbs to separate them from the main carriage way.

The kerbs are not lit-up and would be lethal if a driver hit them at speed. Also they would be useless in separating traffic from parked cars in the event of an accident.

limklad

I always believe lay-bys designed here are dangerous. They are way too small and too close to the road and poorly signed. They are accidents waiting to happen. The road entering and leaving are way too short to decreased from Motorways speeds to such a small area and same for leaving. Most exit/entrance roads here are way too short for Motorway speeds.

In Many foreign countries I have travelled the Rest Stops are far superior than here and they are very much signed posted and entrance/exits are very visible at long distance.