More private-sector cuts on the way

Permabear

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Riskymove

donegalfella wrote: »

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EDIT: never mind..just noticed it includes northern ireland


I would point out that just because the businesses are pessimistic and are 'planning' cuts, freezes or reduced hours does not mean that they will carry through

DidierMc

Donegalfeela you seem to be suggesting that Public Sector pay cuts will benifit the private sector. Will it not just lead to further deflation of the economy and less consumption which will cost jobs in the private sector?

danman

DidierMc wrote: »

Donegalfeela you seem to be suggesting that Public Sector pay cuts will benifit the private sector. Will it not just lead to further deflation of the economy and less consumption which will cost jobs in the private sector?

No, it will mean that we are trying to reach the target spend, as set down by the EU. A spend that is way over budget.

DidierMc

danman wrote: »

No, it will mean that we are trying to reach the target spend, as set down by the EU. A spend that is way over budget.

But will that be good for the economy? Surely will need some stimulus to get out of recession not just cut after cut.

danman

The deficits need to be addressed first.
Otherwise, the interest on the money we are getting in loans will become more expensive.

Digging a bigger and bigger hole.

Silvio.Dante

Thats what happens when you deflate the market by descriminatingly cutting public sector employees' take home pay twice in one year... The IBEC/GOVT/ICTU cartel must be rubbing its hands in glee...:mad:

Permabear

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Riskymove

donegalfella wrote: »

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perhaps, but dont forget that the taxes paid by Public sector staff are included in the tax take and therefore a cut in expenditure also results in a lower tax take

DidierMc

donegalfella wrote: »

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You can't cut your way out of recession, you have to grow your way out. Cutting public sector wages will not help growth in any way. If anything we should be hiring more people in public works programmes to reduce unemployment and build necessary infrastructure and communications. The service sector in Ireland is far to big while the secondary sector is too small. This needs to be addressed.

Permabear

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Riskymove

DidierMc wrote: »

You can't cut your way out of recession, you have to grow your way out. Cutting public sector wages will not help growth in any way.

cutting public sector wages will not lead to a recovery you are right but it is against the concept of reducing our current deficit that you need to look at expenditure

Permabear

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murphaph

Riskymove wrote: »

perhaps, but dont forget that the taxes paid by Public sector staff are included in the tax take and therefore a cut in expenditure also results in a lower tax take

That's rather perverse logic Risky.

The tax paid by public servants is an accounting exercise. Nothing more, nothing less.

And there's no perhaps about it...cutting expenditure WILL keep taxes at reasonable levels that may allow business to claw us out of recession.

thebaldsoprano

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Thats what happens when you deflate the market by descriminatingly cutting public sector employees' take home pay twice in one year... The IBEC/GOVT/ICTU cartel must be rubbing its hands in glee...:mad:

Too right - it would be much better to keep borrowing until the IMF get involved.

Riskymove

murphaph wrote: »

That's rather perverse logic Risky.

The tax paid by public servants is an accounting exercise. Nothing more, nothing less.

its still inclucded in the overall tax take which is what most people use as our baseline revenue

And there's no perhaps about it...cutting expenditure WILL keep taxes at reasonable levels that may allow business to claw us out of recession.

I am not sold in the current climate that reducing expenditure will result in lower taxes...or do you mean there may not be anymore imminent increases?

murphaph

DidierMc wrote: »

You can't cut your way out of recession

That's how we finally started to get out of the last one

murphaph

Riskymove wrote: »

I am not sold in the current climate that reducing expenditure will result in lower taxes...or do you mean there may not be anymore imminent increases?

The latter, or perhaps at best it will allow tax to be increased less.
Taxes need to be kept as low as possible right now to encourage work.

Permabear

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granturismo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Exactly how many taxes were reduced when the public sector salaries were cut?

donegalfella wrote: »

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How does this view go down with the staff in LYIT?

donegalfella wrote: »

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So, its okay to cut public service pay again in order to avert rises for public and private sectors in PAYE and PRSI in the next budget?

donegalfella wrote: »

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So, whats the point in cutting public sector pay again, if another cut will be just as negligible? My 14% pay cut over the past 2 years isnt enough for you? I realise that public spending has to be cut, yes make me redudant if I dont have any work to do but I do provide a service - basic economics of supply and demand.

Your original tabloid reference is from a survey which reflects opinions and serves to promote the anti public sector rants which suits so many including the government.

Riskymove

donegalfella wrote: »

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I am not arguing that

The point is that taxes may still increase, due to the costs of social welfare, restabilising the banks, and so on—but they will increase less than they would if the public-sector wage bill were left untouched.

well yes...decreasing expenditure means you need less income..that is clear

my point is that its not specifically that 'lower public sector wages = lower taxes'

in fact we just had a period of low tax and high wages

ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

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Private sector workers should unite and go on a national strike!

how dare those capitalists business owners reduce our wages, buck the markets!

Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь!

Permabear

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Riskymove

donegalfella wrote: »

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your doing it again

the choice is between low expenditure and low taxes or high expenditure and high taxes right?

Citizen_Cutback

donegalfella wrote: »

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But the question remains how will these cuts increase the productivity of the Private Sector?

Taxes on employees are 20% and 41%.

Corporation Tax is 12.5%.

The problem is that Corporation Tax is too low for the Private Sector which itself must be extremely inefficient if it can not prosper with a tax regime like we have in the Republic.

Much has been made of the lack of efficiency in the Public Sector.

The Public Sector aims to provide a service but not make a profit.

The Private Sector aims to maximise profits by reducing inputs or charging more for it's products.

How can the Privatisation of Public Services be more efficient than the provision of those services by the Public Sector when the Private Sector's main aim is to maximise profits?

Permabear

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Citizen_Cutback

donegalfella wrote: »

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There will be no more cuts in Public Sector wages.

Get the money somewhere else and don't expect to find the answers in the Irish Independent.

Permabear

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WalterMitty

taxing everyone to avoid public sector pay cuts has many probs. First it does nothing to address the pay premiums that CSO evidence shows exists between equivalently qualified/experienced private and public workers and those premiums do not even include the other premiums in terms of security and pensions.
Also so far the government ahs actually raised income taxes on everyone but this hasnt increased the tax haul . Rising rates doesnt equal more tax revenue. Also we cant afford to increase corp tax as it would lead to MNCs leaving and deter more companies coming here. Look at how succesfull we have been at attracting the head offices in Europe of Google ,ebay etc. We want to remain/achieve status the most attractive place in Europe to locate investment. High cost of public service feeds into private sector costs and make us less attractive and can also suck in over qualified people who are better needed in wealth creating private exporting sector.

20Cent

donegalfella wrote:

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Ya what????

Rose tinted glasses there!!

Ah Donegalfella..another facepalm thread outa you..

You really struggle to get past your right wing libre-bollox dont you?..
F*ck everyone else, i dont wanna pay tax..

(sigh)

granturismo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Waffle and unsubstantiated. I provide a service and manage to do it without doing as little as possible.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Exactly how many taxes were reduced when the public sector salaries were cut? Please answer this.

Permabear

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Citizen_Cutback

WalterMitty wrote: »

taxing everyone to avoid public sector pay cuts has many probs. First it does nothing to address the pay premiums that CSO evidence shows exists between equivalently qualified/experienced private and public workers and those premiums do not even include the other premiums in terms of security and pensions.
Also so far the government ahs actually raised income taxes on everyone but this hasnt increased the tax haul . Rising rates doesnt equal more tax revenue. Also we cant afford to increase corp tax as it would lead to MNCs leaving and deter more companies coming here. Look at how succesfull we have been at attracting the head offices in Europe of Google ,ebay etc. We want to remain/achieve status the most attractive place in Europe to locate investment. High cost of public service feeds into private sector costs and make us less attractive and can also suck in over qualified people who are better needed in wealth creating private exporting sector.

The question remains why is the Private Sector not creating more jobs if it can keep 87.5% of it's profits?

Is it because the Irish Private Sector is interested in making profits but not by increased production and increased employment but by speculation and rip-off etc...?

Citizen_Cutback

donegalfella wrote: »

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You objectivity as moderator is under question!

If you quote please quote the full sentence.

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

The question remains why is the Private Sector not creating more jobs if it can keep 87.5% of it's profits?

Is it because the Irish Private Sector is interested in making profits but not by increased production and increased employment but by speculation and rip-off etc...?

What profits?

have you looked at corporation tax returns lately?

IrishTonyO

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

There will be no more cuts in Public Sector wages.

Oh well then glad to see you are so sure and confident about that. I reckon a big dose of reality will hit you very soon when more paycuts come next budget if this agreement is rejected.

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What profits?

have you looked at corporation tax returns lately?

They must be investing in the Director's Pension fund then.

The working stiffs have to pay the majority of taxes in this country!

Permabear

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DidierMc

murphaph wrote: »

That's how we finally started to get out of the last one

Actually it was through export led growth. But let's not bother with the facts eh?

Permabear

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Nody

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

There will be no more cuts in Public Sector wages.

Get the money somewhere else and don't expect to find the answers in the Irish Independent.

I got a lovely red bridge for sale...

Citizen_Cutback

donegalfella wrote: »

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The point is you have let boards.ie down by quoting part of a sentence to make your point.

My contention is that your moderator privileges must be under question.

zootroid

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

There will be no more cuts in Public Sector wages.

Get the money somewhere else and don't expect to find the answers in the Irish Independent.

Care to suggest an area where the government could make savings?

Actually it was through export led growth. But let's not bother with the facts eh?

Which only happened once the state's finances were brought under control

murphaph

donegalfella wrote: »

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Oh I nearly split my sides laughing at that, nice one DF.

Citizen_Cutback

zootroid wrote: »

Care to suggest an area where the government could make savings?

I though that the neo-liberalists on this board should now realise that it is the Private Sector that is not performing in this Republic of ours.

The Private Sector has not increased output or employment but aims to increase it's profits by increasing prices to consumers and generally ripping us off whenever they can.

We do not have an export led economy because our indigenous Private Sector is run by Gombeens.

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

I though that the neo-liberalists on this board should now realise that it is the Private Sector that is not performing in this Republic of ours.

The Private Sector has not increased output or employment but aims to increase it's profits by increasing prices to consumers and generally ripping us off whenever they can.

We do not have an export led economy because our indigenous Private Sector is run by Gombeens.

any figures at all to backup that opinion of yours?

Citizen_Cutback

ei.sdraob wrote: »

any figures at all to backup that opinion of yours?

The usual ploy of asking for figures!

What figures do you want? The number of Gombeens involved in running our indigenous Private Sector?

ei.sdraob

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

The usual ploy of asking for figures!

What figures do you want? The number of Gombeens involved in running our indigenous Private Sector?

i try where possible to backup my opinion/thesis with references, it be nice if more people did that too

you can start by looking at import/export figures
the proceede to lookup the number employed now and few years in export generating part of the private sector, and for that matter anything not related to construction
hint i had a thread on subject recently with plenty of graphs and figures on above

your post is nothing more than waffle thats not grounded in reality

zootroid

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

I though that the neo-liberalists on this board should now realise that it is the Private Sector that is not performing in this Republic of ours.

The Private Sector has not increased output or employment but aims to increase it's profits by increasing prices to consumers and generally ripping us off whenever they can.

We do not have an export led economy because our indigenous Private Sector is run by Gombeens.

The falling prices seen over the past two years would tell a different story.

And our exports are now increasing, so we are becoming more competitive. It's just we were so uncompetitive and our economy was too reliant on construction that we are still in recession.

murf313

donegalfella wrote: »

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sorry but do you have proof that PS is overpaid 30-50%? thats a pretty sweeping statement?