Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Tox56

To play 13? I think this is going nowhere and we'll have to agree to disagree.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

So who do we put at 13? I want Cave to be given a shot, but Earls is the other alternative and is he too small to play? I don't think so, and consequently don't think EOM is either.

Its a bit difficult for EOM as he has a couple of people to contend with. Cave is the starting 13 for Ulster, so he will get gametime. Earls has to deal with Laulala at Munster (but it will be fairly obvious to Penney that he will only have Laulala for 2 seasons and if he wants to stay longer, he better have someone lined up for the job).

Ireland will sort itself out - BOD, Earls, McFadden, Cave at the moment (in that order).

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Its a bit difficult for EOM as he has a couple of people to contend with. Cave is the starting 13 for Ulster, so he will get gametime. Earls has to deal with Laulala at Munster (but it will be fairly obvious to Penney that he will only have Laulala for 2 seasons and if he wants to stay longer, he better have someone lined up for the job).

Ireland will sort itself out - BOD, Earls, McFadden, Cave at the moment (in that order).

If Cave is behind McFadden something is seriously, seriously wrong. I'm not suggesting EOM should be starting for Ireland right now, but in the long-term I think he will succeed BOD at Leinster, and as a result possibily Ireland.

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

Just because it didn't work out for Luke as a fullback, doesn't mean it won't work out for anyone else who say what position they want to play in. It was a bad time for Luke to be tried out there as he was coming back from an injury and was clearly lacking confidence. Perhaps if he was at a club where he could have got more gametime at fullback, it might have worked out that way for him, but with Kearney & Nacewa about, it would have been difficult at Leinster.

Its worth noting that Fofana & Conrad Smith generally have big, strong centre partners who can break the gainline regularly - which Ireland doesn't have.

My reasoning couldn't be further from what you have asserted. My reasoning isn't "because Fitz couldn't do it Earls won't be able to do it either". My point in bringing Fitz up was that there are parallels to the Earls situation in that they both prefer a position that clearly isn't their best position.

I don't agree with your argument regarding Fitz being played at the wrong time either. He has regularly said he prefers full back since joining Leinster and has played there a good few times over the years. He has always done a job there but has never had the Kearney/Isa spark. There is no harm in that, it just isn't his best position.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

My reasoning couldn't be further from what you have asserted. My reasoning isn't "because Fitz couldn't do it Earls won't be able to do it either". My point in bringing Fitz up was that there are parallels to the Earls situation in that they both prefer a position that clearly isn't their best position.

I don't agree with your argument regarding Fitz being played at the wrong time either. He has regularly said he prefers full back since joining Leinster and has played there a good few times over the years. He has always done a job there but has never had the Kearney/Isa spark. There is no harm in that, it just isn't his best position.

Well, Id reason with you then that Earls is maybe more adaptable than Luke Fitz (EArls was pretty good at fullback against England in Lansdowne last year even though he hadn't played there for years). Earls also had a good six nations this year and his wingers did get involved. Andrew Trimble even scored a couple of tries, something he hasn't done for years and Tommy Bowe was 6Ns top try scorer, so from an attacking point of view, its working for Ireland anyway.

Fireball07

The thing about Earls playing 13 for Munster is that having signed Laulala...Laulala being a very talented player, presumably on big enough wages and taking up a NIQ spot, I can't see him not playing most games.

You'd hope that Penney will pick on form rather than things like that but even so, Laulala is one of the best 13s in the pro12. If it's a matter of getting your best players on the pitch, Laulala has to play. So unless he's going to play 12 (I'm not even sure if he can) then he's going to play 13. Earls' versatility will hurt him. Because he is a fantastic winger, he's probably the best finisher in the country and I know he doesn't like it but he's got all the attributes to be a top winger.

I also think he's an excellent full-back. And as of now, if Kearney wasn't available, I'd prefer Earls going to 15 than pretty much anyone else (unless Duffy was in the squad).

thomond2006

Also acknowledged on the night were the contributions of departing players Tomás O’Leary, Lifeimi Mafi, Peter Borlase, Tom Gleeson, Declan Cusack and Denis Fogarty, who even marked his departure to French club Aurillac by winning a prize in the raffle — a pair of Munster season tickets.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/persistence-pays-off-for-munsters-gentle-giant-193046.html#ixzz1uNdkAyU6

Borlase and Gleeson gone in the summer so!

justsomebloke

is Borlase going back to Connacht

Wexfordboy89

thomond2006 wrote: »

Borlase and Gleeson gone in the summer so!

Borlase has been unlucky with injuries thought he would have been given a 1 year deal to see of penney could have got anything out of him especially seeing as he coached him before.any ideas were he`ll go?connacht maybe?he is a LH OR TH prop just if hes TH with White going there next season and with loughney and ah you there he would be third choice at best ahead of ah you.will munster be on the look out for a new prop then so or is there enough in house.be interesting next summer with the new rules munster will have to let one or both of the SA props go.

thomond2006

Borlase is better off leaving Ireland, he won't start ahead of Nathan White at Connacht.

Wexfordboy, I doubt we'll be shopping for props. We're well stocked at loosehead with du Preez, Horan and Kilcoyne with Botha and Archer as tightheads. Plus John Ryan can play either side (he needs some gametime next season, got barely anything this season).

irishbucsfan

I wonder if Penney had the option of keeping Borlase and he chose not to? I know he's not the coach yet but I wonder if the subject of Borlase came up at all between himself and Garrett...

Lelantos

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

Borlase and Gleeson gone in the summer so!

Borlase has been unlucky with injuries thought he would have been given a 1 year deal to see of penney could have got anything out of him especially seeing as he coached him before.any ideas were he`ll go?connacht maybe?he is a LH OR TH prop just if hes TH with White going there next season and with loughney and ah you there he would be third choice at best ahead of ah you.will munster be on the look out for a new prop then so or is there enough in house.be interesting next summer with the new rules munster will have to let one or both of the SA props go.

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

thomond2006

Lelantos wrote: »

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

I'm sure the IRFU took legal advice before announcing the new dictats.

Monty Burnz

Lelantos wrote: »

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

I can't see a subsidiary branch of the union taking the IRFU to court.

Wexfordboy89

Lelantos wrote: »

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

ah rite wasn't sure on the whole rules thing.i`d say your rite i mean anyone of the player could take the irfu to the court of human rights and say that the rules are discriminatory against them.the new rules are stupid if you ask me if it aint broken which it inst why change it?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Lelantos wrote: »

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

I don't have time to look up the ECJ ruling that would be precedence but sporting bodies are allowed to take reasonable steps to discriminate based on national qualification (not nationality) if they own the teams.

Of course current contracts must be honoured but when it comes to new hires then I'm sure rules will apply. Maybe the IRFU will be willing to grant special allowances though.

Wexfordboy89

just thought tho if munster want to keep Botha which they prob will and ulster want to keep Afoa which they prob will want happens there?same at LH munster will prob want to keep du preez and leinster may well want to keep Vdm what happens there?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

just thought tho if munster want to keep Botha which they prob will and ulster want to keep Afoa which they prob will want happens there?same at LH munster will prob want to keep du preez and leinster may well want to keep Vdm what happens there?

I can think of a dozen different ways that they might divide things and none are really fair.

Horse-trading of some sort maybe, you can sign x if we can sign y.

Or it might be based on when contracts end. Botha's contract ends after next season so in order that there is only one NIQ TH around they would have to let him go. Same with Leinster, VDM is on a one year deal while WDP is on a longer contract as far as I know, so VDMs contract would expire and he would have to leave. Though to be honest I think McGrath is nearly ready as a LH to replace VDM

Wexfordboy89

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I can think of a dozen different ways that they might divide things and none are really fair.

Horse-trading of some sort maybe, you can sign x if we can sign y.

Or it might be based on when contracts end. Botha's contract ends after next season so in order that there is only one NIQ TH around they would have to let him go. Same with Leinster, VDM is on a one year deal while WDP is on a longer contract as far as I know, so VDMs contract would expire and he would have to leave. Though to be honest I think McGrath is nearly ready as a LH to replace VDM

next summer will be interesting to see want happens.sure leinster will have the new guy bent think he can play both sides so there not to bad there. and with mcGrath and my fellow wexford man tadhg Furlong coming through the ranks they will be ok.any IQ prop will be hard to come by next summer.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

next summer will be interesting to see want happens.sure leinster will have the new guy bent think he can play both sides so there not to bad there. and with mcGrath and my fellow wexford man tadhg Furlong coming through the ranks they will be ok.any IQ prop will be hard to come by next summer.

Borlase (if rumours are right sending him to Connacht) and AhYou (if he stays in Connacht) will qualify next November 12 months which is close enough to the start of the season the provinces will be allowed treat them as IQ probably.

Bent can play both sides but I think he is primarily a TH.

Lelantos

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

I can't see a subsidiary branch of the union taking the IRFU to court.

Doesn't have to be taken by a branch, 1 player can do so.
Judge; why can't you play on beyond 2013 Mr Nacewa?
Isa: because I'm not Irish!
That is illegal, and the laws of the land outweigh the rules of a game, the first province, or player that tackles this will land the irfu in a load of trouble

Wexfordboy89

Lelantos wrote: »

Doesn't have to be taken by a branch, 1 player can do so.
Judge; why can't you play on beyond 2013 Mr Nacewa?
Isa: because I'm not Irish!
That is illegal, and the laws of the land outweigh the rules of a game, the first province, or player that tackles this will land the irfu in a load of trouble

sure will Nacewa not be able to apply for an irish passport soon?plus i think all his kids are born here so they cant kick him out of the country although under a referendum about 8/9 years ago there not irish according to law.

PhatPiggins

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I can think of a dozen different ways that they might divide things and none are really fair.

Horse-trading of some sort maybe, you can sign x if we can sign y.

Or it might be based on when contracts end. Botha's contract ends after next season so in order that there is only one NIQ TH around they would have to let him go. Same with Leinster, VDM is on a one year deal while WDP is on a longer contract as far as I know, so VDMs contract would expire and he would have to leave. Though to be honest I think McGrath is nearly ready as a LH to replace VDM

WDP's contact is up this season is it not? You can usually tell when his time is running out because he starts to play really well !

CIARAN_BOYLE

PhatPiggins wrote: »

WDP's contact is up this season is it not? You can usually tell when his time is running out because he starts to play really well !

Renewed for 2 years in February I believe

Cpt_Blackbeard

Wexfordboy89 wrote: »

sure will Nacewa not be able to apply for an irish passport soon?plus i think all his kids are born here so they cant kick him out of the country although under a referendum about 8/9 years ago there not irish according to law.

It has nothing do do with nationality. The NIE policy is based on eligibility to play for the national team. Its a subtle difference, but there is a difference.

Just look at the whole "project player" idea. Richart Strauss will, later this year, become eligible to represent the national team. He will not be an Irish citizen, but he will be allowed represent this country.

On the other hand, you have someone like Paul Warwick. He lived here for 7 years and is married to an Irish woman; he is an Irish national. However, due to representing Australia in sevens, he was not eligible to represent the national team; he remained a NIE player.

It only makes sense that the IRFU looks after its primary interest - the national team. If that means limiting the number of NIE players in the country and at each province, so be it.

irishbucsfan

John Afoa may well want to return to NZ before the world cup and BJ is long in the tooth. Considering theres over a year until these rules come into effect I think its not really that certain that either will still be here when they do.

I think Munster could well be the team with the first NIE tighthead as they need it far more.

Lelantos

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It has nothing do do with nationality. The NIE policy is based on eligibility to play for the national team. Its a subtle difference, but there is a difference.

Just look at the whole "project player" idea. Richart Strauss will, later this year, become eligible to represent the national team. He will not be an Irish citizen, but he will be allowed represent this country.

On the other hand, you have someone like Paul Warwick. He lived here for 7 years and is married to an Irish woman; he is an Irish national. However, due to representing Australia in sevens, he was not eligible to represent the national team; he remained a NIE player.

It only makes sense that the IRFU looks after its primary interest - the national team. If that means limiting the number of NIE players in the country and at each province, so be it.

Bt that makes no sense! Ireland play 5 international games a year, of those, 3 are competitive, Italy & Scotland games are/should be almost walkovers, throw in a tour at the end of the season when players are exhausted, and you have at best, 8 games in a year.
Now compare that to the Rabo & Heineken cup, this is where most fans loyaltys lie, to their clubs. Attempts by the IRFU to destroy club success will end up costing them dearly.
The clubs were not consulted with this new rule, it cannot work & it will not work imo

Podge_irl

Ireland play more like 10 tests a year and have lost 2/4 against Scotland. The Irish team also brings in the most money.

irishbucsfan

Lelantos wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

I can't see a subsidiary branch of the union taking the IRFU to court.

Doesn't have to be taken by a branch, 1 player can do so.
Judge; why can't you play on beyond 2013 Mr Nacewa?
Isa: because I'm not Irish!
That is illegal, and the laws of the land outweigh the rules of a game, the first province, or player that tackles this will land the irfu in a load of trouble

The IRFU would never in a million years go forward with this if that was the case. The Union is full of very good barristers and solicitors and there are more employed to them I'm sure.

The simple fact is the IRFU gain more value from hiring Irish elligible player than non Irish eligible players. There is a value adding element to the discrimination. That's what makes it legal. It is very easy to demonstrate in court as well.

Also, it doesn't really have anything to do with nationality or race anyway. There are welsh, Australian, New Zealand, english and potentially nationals from any country in the world. It has to do with eligibility which is decided by an external governing body and which is not predicated by anyone's nationality.

If anyone could make this case it already would have been made, hiring based on.eligibility is nothing new.

Lelantos

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Lelantos wrote: »

Munster won't have to let any SA boys go, the rules say 1 NIQ player per position, amongst the 3 provinces, and this new rule will be quashed as soon as anybody takes it before a court.

I can't see a subsidiary branch of the union taking the IRFU to court.

Doesn't have to be taken by a branch, 1 player can do so.
Judge; why can't you play on beyond 2013 Mr Nacewa?
Isa: because I'm not Irish!
That is illegal, and the laws of the land outweigh the rules of a game, the first province, or player that tackles this will land the irfu in a load of trouble

The IRFU would never in a million years go forward with this if that was the case. The Union is full of very good barristers and solicitors and there are more employed to them I'm sure.

The simple fact is the IRFU gain more value from hiring Irish elligible player than non Irish eligible players. There is a value adding element to the discrimination. That's what makes it legal. It is very easy to demonstrate in court as well.

Also, it doesn't really have anything to do with nationality or race anyway. There are welsh, Australian, New Zealand, english and potentially nationals from any country in the world. It has to do with eligibility which is decided by an external governing body and which is not predicated by anyone's nationality.

If anyone could make this case it already would have been made, hiring based on.eligibility is nothing new.

I'm quite sure that the British Olympic board were certain of their ground when banning Chambers for life, look where that got them. All any player has to do is take a case regarding restriction of work practice based on nationality, and that will end up being a very messy courtcase, win lose or draw