Motorists encouraged to buy electric

JHMEG

Sponge Bob wrote: »

These vehicles are clearly only limitedly fit for purpose in urban areas like Dublin and it follows that the whole electric car scam is an urban subsidy unsubtly cloaked as a green initiative.

No, it's called economies of scale. An expensive public charge point will pay for itself a lot quicker in Carrickmines than it will in Connemara.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We would soon see how smart and green Ryan was if Wickila started to charge for ITS water that Dublin takes off it

Dublin local authorities fund the construction and running of its water plants, regardless of where.

Sponge Bob

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Hey Sponge Bob

It was fun watching that again, whats that a couple of years back?

Late 2008 !!

"With a range up to 300 miles and 45-minute QuickCharge, the Model S can carry five adults and two children in quiet comfort – and you can charge it from any outlet, without ever stopping for gas.

I am well aware of the TeslaS and I do hope it works out, honest.

But you are not reading the careful marketing BS there although it is thankfully free of south Dublin green pixiebollix.

"With a range up to 300 miles and 45-minute QuickCharge"

FROM A SPECIAL QUICKCHARGER not any old charger.

"and you can charge it from any outlet"

IN 16 Hours like Jeremy said, you need a Quickcharger to charge it in 45 mins and they cost €1000s and are only usable on a Tesla S .

"without ever stopping for gas"

Because it is electric not because charging is quicker than gassing it. It is true that it takes no gas.

And I am sure the 300 mile range is with no seats in the back or kiddies or wives or luggage, it will only get to Athlone when it is fully loaded and very hopefully Eamon Ryan is lounging in the back and does not make it to Galway for the speech he wanted to bore us with

JHMEG

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Therefore they should always be presented as an urban initiative and the subsidies will always be to urban areas.

I really don't know how you work out this is an urban subsidy. The urban charge points will pay for themselves, the rural ones won't, and by definition it's the urban that will subsidise the rural.

There isn't the population in Connemara to pay for the maintenance of the roads in Connemara, never mind the one or more charge points that'll be installed there.

cianof

Spong Bob, you driving 300 miles every day then?

If you do, you should probably stick with your fossel fuel car.

EVs will suite some people, they don't suite everyone's driving requirements.

It's idiotic to think EVs will replace all cars. That's not the plan.

They'll make up a % of all cars on the road.

Speaking of rural EVs:
http://www.aran-isles.com/blog/2009/11/aran-drivers-go-electric.php

gpjordanf1

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Late 2008 !!

Mid 2010

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I am well aware of the TeslaS and I do hope it works out, honest.

But you are not reading the careful marketing BS there although it is thankfully free of south Dublin green pixiebollix.

Every product has PR Bollix, everyone is responsible for themselves and what they believe.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

"With a range up to 300 miles and 45-minute QuickCharge"

FROM A SPECIAL QUICKCHARGER not any old charger.

That may be true, but these will be available at these new charge points. Where theres money to be made, people will provide the facilities.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

"and you can charge it from any outlet"

IN 16 Hours like Jeremy said, you need a Quickcharger to charge it in 45 mins and they cost €1000s and are only usable on a Tesla S .

Again your quoting the Tesla Roadster charging figures there, your misleading people, we'll have to start calling you Jeremy
Heres the charge figures:
Charging time is 4 hours on a 220V outlet,
45 minutes at a 440V charging station

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And I am sure the 300 mile range is with no seats in the back or kiddies or wives or luggage, it will only get to Athlone when it is fully loaded and very hopefully Eamon Ryan is lounging in the back and does not make it to Galway for the speech he wanted to bore us with

I'm pretty sure no car lives up to its max advertised MPG when fully laden, same with this car, but I do believe the Tesla S will traverse this country with ease on a single charge.
Cang be charged from any socket in the country in 4 hours and from a charge station in 45 minutes (enough time for lunch).

I dont know about the rest of ye but I could easily live with those figures.

Sponge Bob

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure no car lives up to its max advertised MPG when fully laden, same with this car, but I do believe the Tesla S will traverse this country with ease on a single charge.

I don't, the family will not make it from Dublin to Galway crusing at 40mph and that is that. Then they gotta charge up to cross Galway ..bless

Can be charged from any socket in the country in 4 hours and from a charge station in 45 minutes (enough time for lunch).

I don't believe that either . Charging Time and Charge retention is VERY SENSITIVE to ambient temperature and Ireland is colder than California so it will ALWAYS take longer.

Are those figures for Death Valley maybe or did the Tesla gang take the easy route and simply not SAY what the ambient temperature was at the time GP Maybe they will build preheated garages and we will drive in and charge at room temperature or something???? Maybe there will be a solar powered preheated glasshouse or bubble here and there ??

I dont know about the rest of ye but I could easily live with those figures.

I could ....were they true. And you dodged the fact that quick chargers for a Tesla will be completely different to a quick charger for a Renault and that quick charge will always be manufacturer specific for the next 10 years until standards form.

And the charged battery silo idea ...while minorly to medium useful....will not work across cars until a standard form is agreed by the lot of them....like an AA is a standard form

Ryan has not started his green pixiebollix waffle yet.

gpjordanf1

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I don't, the family will not make it from Dublin to Galway crusing at 40mph and that is that. Then they gotta charge up to cross Galway ..bless

This has not been tested yet, but based on the figures it should do it with ease, my opinion only.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I don't believe that either . Charging Time and Charge retention is VERY SENSITIVE to ambient temperature and Ireland is colder than California so it will ALWAYS take longer.

Are those figures for Death Valley maybe or did the Tesla gang take the easy route and simply not SAY what the ambient temperature was at the time GP Maybe they will build preheated garages and we will drive in and charge at room temperature or something???? Maybe there will be a solar powered preheated glasshouse or bubble here and there ??

Look SpongeBob these are the release specs from the company, I'm not making it up as I go along? I dont care about ambient temp, its irrelevant. If its 4 hrs or 5 hrs I dont care, i 'll be asleep while its doing that? As will everybody else who will own one? I'm guessing you'll be the only one up all night with a stop watch and thermometer cursing!

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I could ....were they true. And you dodged the fact that quick chargers for a Tesla will be completely different to a quick charger for a Renault and that quick charge will always be manufacturer specific for the next 10 years until standards form.

And the charged battery silo idea ...while minorly to medium useful....will not work across cars until a standard form is agreed by the lot of them....like an AA is a standard form

Again I couldn't give a rats arse about what plug or battery pack drop out is required!
I didn't dodge the question either, read back again please.
I said these stations will cater for all chargable cars, that will be their business model & plan, they will hardly say "Sorry we only do Renault Bud" , these will be computer controlled charging points with all necessary adaptors & fitting required to make a buck!

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ryan has not started his green pixiebollix waffle yet.

Ok thanks, might catch it on lunchtime news!
Might have a pixiebollix waffle, starving!

Sponge Bob

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Look SpongeBob these are the release specs from the company, I'm not making it up as I go along? I dont care about ambient temp, its irrelevant. If its 4 hrs or 5 hrs I dont care, i 'll be asleep while its doing that?

It is highly relevant and I am not questioning your sourcing in the least GP ..merely what your source has carefully avoided saying coz they would wouldn't they

I said these stations will cater for all chargable cars, that will be their business model & plan, they will hardly say "Sorry we only do Renault Bud" , these will be computer controlled charging points with all necessary adaptors & fitting required to make a buck!

I will bet right now they will all be in Renault or Nissan garages...so emm No!

Might have a pixiebollix waffle, starving!

Charge that stomach fully , catch you after Ryan does his green pixiebollix routine.

Victor

Sponge Bob, perhaps you are a bit excited about things this morning and should tone it down a bit?

Do you have personal knowledge of this stuff?

dowlingm

climate wise I'd say Ireland will be pretty good for electric (less chance for battery failure in cold/overheating). However, it seems to me that promoting this stuff merely suits car dealers who like vintners and property guys are coddled by TDs, even though Ireland has no auto industry any more. I'd rather see the government make every local service bus in Ireland a hybrid first and push on with rail network electrification. As for charging stations - push the price of petrol high enough and the market will figure out how to handle the rest.

cianof

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-launches-5k-incentive-to-buy-electric-cars-453589.html

2011
€5,000 incentive
0% VRT

It's generous but I think they could have done a little bit better.

2 bits that are disappointing.
1) It's the same money as the current scrappage scheme for older cars
2) There's already 0% vrt on EVs.

I'd like to have seen a reduction in road tax to 100 euros.
€6000 incentive for the 1st year, €5000 for yr 2. (reward early adopters)
plus the the 0% vrt.

The ACA has great offers for businesses.
http://www.sustainableenergyireland.com/Your_Business/Accelerated_Capital_Allowance/

Sponge Bob

dowlingm wrote: »

push the price of petrol high enough and the market will figure out how to handle the rest.

That is the only plan and it will kill the economy stone dead before there is any 'market'

cianof

Don't really understand why petrol heads are so against EVs.

Considering more EVs will cause a reduction in the demand/price at the pumps.

Sponge Bob

The usual Ryan slime. He announced the renault alliance in April 2009 and the ESB rollout was supposed to be 1500 points when originally announced last year but is now to be 3500 points. The increase in charge points is the only new news. The VRT angle is from Budget 2008.

Most of these will be in HOMES where the esb runs a cable along the house for slow charging and charges €330 a pop for the service

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/ELECTRIC+CARS+A+REALITY+FOR+IRELAND.htm

The ESB will only install 30 fast Charging points in the WHOLE COUNTRY, the rest are to be slow points that will take all night to charge at peoples homes.

Pixiebollix and a rehash of old announcements, that is all Ryan announced the 1500 slow points again early this year. A photo was taken of Ryan which is what he wanted .

Does the yoke in his right hand look familiar ????

KevR

dowlingm wrote: »

As for charging stations - push the price of petrol high enough and the market will figure out how to handle the rest.

As soon as electric vehicles become common, road pricing or a car charge tax will be introduced along with VRT for electric vehicles. €7 billion taken from motorists every year currently, €1 billion spent on roads annually. That's not going to change - private motorists will always get screwed whether they are driving a Chelsea tractor or a small zero emission electric car.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

That is the only plan and it will kill the economy stone dead before there is any 'market'

+ 1,000,000,000,000!

RichieO

Shell are not opposed to EV's they are involved in wind energy, they don't have any choice, they KNOW whats coming in the future....

see here..http://www.shell.com/home/content/innovation/alternative_energy/wind/wind.html

cianof

Fair play to the ESB on the charge points. It's a good start.

I'm happy enough with the 30 fast charge points and other regular charge points.

Most people with EV's will charge up at home, when they're sleeping.

The fast charge points will be of most use between the cities.

From the people who are being critical of the EV idea, I have yet to hear your plausible alternatives?

Sponge Bob

cianof wrote: »

Fair play to the ESB on the charge points. It's a good start.

The ESB are to charge €330 to install a 3 pin socket at the front of your house, a RECI would do it for €100. What is green about that ???? Other than that they will install 30 'fast' chargers which may or may not be fast depending on the temperature outside.

From the people who are being critical of the EV idea, I have yet to hear your plausible alternatives?

I am not opposed to EVs.

The technology is highly experimental and generally inadequate and unready for prime time and will be so pending another battery generation.

Following that we need widespread standardisation of battery forms and chargers. Not for another 5 years anyway.

Meanwhile good luck to the lads and their A4 paper in car technology

I am opposed to listening to Eamon Ryan peddling 3 pin sockets as a vision of some sort and to all the complete waffle these bloody greens come up with

gpjordanf1

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The usual Ryan slime.

Look while you might not like what was announced, its at least a start.
Would I buy a renault Fleunce? With a 160km range? No wouldn't suit my needs.

Would I buy a Tesla S, yes absolutley in a heart beat.

But thats where we are at the moment in Ireland. Talking the big talk but not backing it up.

Its a shame, this will appeal to people around Dublin, Cork and Maybe Galway & Athlone. But no one else.

But with no VRT importing a Tesla S could be a runner in 2012

cianof

I am not opposed to EVs

From this end it sounds like you are opposed to EVs.

The reality is we're in the middle of global recession and oil is at $84.45 a barrel. When things start to improve, its unlikely that oil will get cheaper.

loyatemu

Sponge Bob wrote: »

This "Quickdrop" is what Ryan is announcing today, it is pure bollox. They weight a ton FFS and require a contraption UNDER the car for removal and insertion Look at this video, and LAUGH!!!!

big deal - so you need a specially built station to swap the batteries. How does that differ from a petrol station, which has extensive underground tanks and pumps in order to deal with a highly flammable liquid that is trasported in large tankers?

The main problem I would see is that there would need to be standardisation on the batteries, but the concept of battery swap is not in itself ludicrous.

Sponge Bob

loyatemu wrote: »

The main problem I would see is that there would need to be standardisation on the batteries, but the concept of battery swap is not in itself ludicrous.

We are not going to get standardisation save in FORM..which would be a great help for swapping garages.

As for the composition of the battery ...which needs to be recycled....there are about 200 different recipes for a lithium battery, all of which need to be recycled differently and perhaps 3 - 4 times over the lifetime of the car itself.

The car industry had better settle on 5 or 6 recipes to get to scale as well as a standard form in which to encapsulate them.

The ESB actually told us in February that there would be 29 fast chargers nationwide, Ryan got that up to 30 which is well worth a pixebollix session with the meeja when you are green. Our press are generally too thick to notice he announced the 1500 charge points only last month.

Fast Charger Number 30 is probably the fast charger that the ESB were never originally going to install in Dublin ...at least not 2 months ago

JHMEG

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We are not going to get standardisation save in FORM..which would be a great help for swapping garages.

The form, ie phyisical properties, are all that are required. It's irrelevant what the battery chemistry is.

cianof

Manufacturers will be handling the recycling of the batteries they produce.
End of life batteries have a material value.

Having a standard for battery chemistry would force batteries to be the same. That's not going to happen.

Over time market forces will dictate that batteries will improve in capacity, life cycle charge count, speed of charge and lifespan.

Motor journos are going to have to do some homework to keep up. The articles I've read in press so far about EVs have been very light on technical details.

Sponge Bob

cianof wrote: »

Over time market forces will dictate that batteries will improve in capacity, life cycle charge count, speed of charge and lifespan.

That is technology , market forces will merely dictate the ADOPTION of that technology.

We have around 200 different Lithium based recipes ( technologies) usable in batteries and the market will select relatively few of them for very large scale production. The other 180 will wither away, unloved.

Recycling will be developed for the 20, not for the 200.

Only 5 or 6 of the 20 will be used in cars.

astrofool

Battery technology will keep on evolving, we may end up going the way of supercapacitors, the beauty of the electric car is that any source of electricity can power it, so rolling battery upgrades would be possible (or even fuel cells).

Charging a car via coal power station is much much much less polluting than burning petrol in an ICE. Power plants are much more efficient, and this is without considering renewable sources of power (wind/solar/wave/geothermal).

The battery packs have a cooling system, this keeps their ambient temperature at the correct level, so environmental factors should not have a large effect on charging.

Most urbanites could happily use an electric car 99% of the time without any range issues, this reduces pollution and fossil fuel dependence drastically.

ESB is rolling out 30 fast charger points, look up what it means.

Given time, most car parking spaces will have an elec car hookup, so there won't be any problem looking for charge points. This obviously will take years to happen, just as the roll out (see I use it again) of say, electricity to the country, of petrol service stations or television.

I can see most regular service stations installing a number of fast charge points. Charging time will go down as the battery technology improves, allowing them to intake more power/time.

Sponge Bob

astrofool wrote: »

B

ESB is rolling out 30 fast charger points, look up what it means.

I provided a map. I know what it means.

I can see most regular service stations installing a number of fast charge points. Charging time will go down as the battery technology improves, allowing them to intake more power/time.

Absolutely, but only if a fast charger supports a wide variety of electric cars and is not manufacturer specific. At least they have 3phase high amp power unlike domestic homes.

gpjordanf1

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I provided a map. I know what it means.



Absolutely, but only if a fast charger supports a wide variety of electric cars and is not manufacturer specific. At least they have 3phase high amp power unlike domestic homes.

have you a link to the map or where the locations are please?

Thanks

Sponge Bob

No, at ESB transformer stations from the look of it.

astrofool

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I provided a map. I know what it means.

so why are you highlighting it as a problem? They're rolling out 30, there will be more after the initial 30, but 30 will allow people to traverse the country, which is a decent start. The ESB have a vested interest in EV, they will bend over backwards to get charging points in place.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Absolutely, but only if a fast charger supports a wide variety of electric cars and is not manufacturer specific. At least they have 3phase high amp power unlike domestic homes.

Do manufacturers have specific nozzles required for petrol? No? Why would they go non standard for EV? At worst, the first couple of plug in models might be non standard, but it will be standardised after that, and they will be made backwards compatible if needed.

I also doubt it would be a hard job to change the socket on a car, that's the beauty of electricity.