Iceland has banned strip clubs.

The_Minister

Feminist writer in favour.
Feminist writer against.
http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16567&ew_0_a_id=359882

What do the ladies here think? (This could be more AH, but I think it's better suited here).

First, a disclaimer: I've never been to a lapdance club. Not out of any great moral objection, I just have better ways to spend €50. Were one of my friends to get married, and his party take place in a stripclub, I would probably go (but I refuse to shell out money to see some nipple - I have my dignity:P)

However, I would agree with the second article more than the first; I think strip clubs should be legal (but regulated). I think it's very paternalistic* of the government to ban women from stripping because they must be exploited if they do so, even if they will openly say that they aren't.
If men (stupid, stupid men), are willing to pay attractive women more money than they would get working elsewhere, in order for them to 'be sexy' at them, then, although it can't be denied that they are being exploited, they should be allowed to do so - if that's what they want to spend their wages on, so be it.

*Yes, I'm using that word on purpose.

Dudess

Some women actually want to be strippers - the dirty hussies...

MaybeLogic

Been to one once and, personally, don't see the point in shelling out money for what amounts to sexual frustration.
If women want to strip, let them. In these recessionary times, removing underwear for cash is hardly to be sniffed at.
Who's exploiting who, if anybody?

Galvasean

There's good money to be made from taking off the clothes. I was at a party a few weeks ago where a stripper was hired. Costed the guts of two hundred euro. Not bad for a half hour's work (well maybe a full hour when you add the drive).
Heck if I could make that kind of money for taking off my clothes I would.

Zadkiel

Galvasean wrote: »

Heck if I could make that kind of money for taking off my clothes I would.

PM Sent.

jimmid098

Id know, I work for one. she def aint no "hussy" as the lovely post claimed earlier...She works very hard every weekend and because of her stag nights in the west of Ireland are something to remember....:D:D:D <snip- no stripper pimping pls!>

Truley

I don't thing there's anything 'feminist' about forbidding women from working in a particular profession and making oppressive laws under the guise of 'protecting' them.

It's like the complete opposite of the burka ban but at the same time very similar.

amacachi

I thought maybe there'd be an Islamist revolution and they were banned to try and slow down the tectonic activity that's been going on.

SheRa

The poor b@stards in Iceland. First their banking meltdown, then this.

Hazys

Iceland...ffs

You have bigger problems at the moment than strip clubs, if ye guys were banning Volcanos i'd be interested.

Jules

Tbh, striping and prostitution should both be legal and heaviely regulated. If a woman wants to take off her cloths for money, its her choice, just as if she wanted to sell sex for money.. it's her choice. And same for men.

End of the day as long as they are not doing anything that is medically unsound... crack on.. my simple view.

Jules

mod hat

can we keep to the subject at hand and not about volcanos or money/banking issues!

goose2005

Kolbrún Halldórsdóttir, the politician who first proposed the ban, firmly told the national press on Wednesday: "It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold."

This never made sense to me. When you hire a builder, aren't you essentially renting out his muscles for the day? Stripping and prostitution are services, and I don't think they "sell their bodies" any more than binmen or miners.

According to Icelandic police, 100 foreign women travel to the country annually to work in strip clubs. It is unclear whether the women are trafficked, but feminists say it is telling that as the stripping industry has grown, the number of Icelandic women wishing to work in it has not.

So, there's absolutely no proof of slavery, therefore there must be slavery.

I have visited a strip club in Reykjavik and observed the women. None of them looked happy in their work.

I visited a Tesco in Clane and observed that none of the workers were happy their either. And they got €70 a day rather than €70 an hour.

LittleBook

Iceland is ... on the brink of achieving what many considered to be impossible: closing down its sex industry.

The naivety of this statement is disturbing.

Iceland is ... on the brink of achieving what many societies have already accomplished: driving its sex industry underground.

Truley

Kolbrún Halldórsdóttir, the politician who first proposed the ban, firmly told the national press on Wednesday: "It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold."

I'm presuming they've banned modelling also :rolleyes:

Smyth

Dudess wrote: »

Some women actually want to be strippers - the dirty hussies...

Those "empowered" women and their aspirations. How do they do it.

I went out with a lapdancer for a couple of months years ago, she was a bit older than me (10 years, I was 24 at the time), met her in Club M in Dublin. She made decent money working Thur, Fri and Sat. She was very popular in there as even though she was old for a lapdancer she was Irish which was a novelty in the club apparently.

I see the men as the ones being exploited in strip clubs to be honest, over here anywhere where there is no extra etc. Are the Iceland clubs like clubs here and in the UK or like the ones in Spain etc which are essentially brothels ? If it's the latter no wonder they are banning them.

Macha

RoverJames wrote: »

I see the men as the ones being exploited in strip clubs to be honest,

How exactly? While I partially understand the argument for women's free choice to work in a strip club, I don't see how men are being exploited. Nobody is forcing them to go to a strip club.

The_Minister

taconnol wrote: »

How exactly? While I partially understand the argument for women's free choice to work in a strip club, I don't see how men are being exploited. Nobody is forcing them to go to a strip club.

You are waving boobies at us, then threatening to take them away unless we give you money:p

Bonito

This is a bit prudent IMO. If it's properly watched over where's the problem? Some women might actually want to be strippers.

Ash.J.Williams

The_Minister wrote: »

Feminist writer in favour.
Feminist writer against.
http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16567&ew_0_a_id=359882

What do the ladies here think? (This could be more AH, but I think it's better suited here).

First, a disclaimer: I've never been to a lapdance club. Not out of any great moral objection, I just have better ways to spend €50. Were one of my friends to get married, and his party take place in a stripclub, I would probably go (but I refuse to shell out money to see some nipple - I have my dignity:P)

However, I would agree with the second article more than the first; I think strip clubs should be legal (but regulated). I think it's very paternalistic* of the government to ban women from stripping because they must be exploited if they do so, even if they will openly say that they aren't.
If men (stupid, stupid men), are willing to pay attractive women more money than they would get working elsewhere, in order for them to 'be sexy' at them, then, although it can't be denied that they are being exploited, they should be allowed to do so - if that's what they want to spend their wages on, so be it.

*Yes, I'm using that word on purpose.

Not sure why you need a disclamer?

Owen

Just came here to post Miss Iceland. And I don't mean Kerry Katona :

goat2

The_Minister wrote: »

Feminist writer in favour.
Feminist writer against.
http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16567&ew_0_a_id=359882

What do the ladies here think? (This could be more AH, but I think it's better suited here).

First, a disclaimer: I've never been to a lapdance club. Not out of any great moral objection, I just have better ways to spend €50. Were one of my friends to get married, and his party take place in a stripclub, I would probably go (but I refuse to shell out money to see some nipple - I have my dignity:P)

However, I would agree with the second article more than the first; I think strip clubs should be legal (but regulated). I think it's very paternalistic* of the government to ban women from stripping because they must be exploited if they do so, even if they will openly say that they aren't.
If men (stupid, stupid men), are willing to pay attractive women more money than they would get working elsewhere, in order for them to 'be sexy' at them, then, although it can't be denied that they are being exploited, they should be allowed to do so - if that's what they want to spend their wages on, so be it.

*Yes, I'm using that word on purpose.

got too hot in iceland
that is why the volcano erupted

Rented Mule

How will they all pay for Medical School now ?

Jules

I will not post another warning, next off topic post will get ya banned.

goat2

Jules wrote: »

I will not post another warning, next off topic post will get ya banned.

sorry jules, couldnt help myself
but back to topic

i have nothing against strip clubs
everyone to their own

Feeona

goose2005 wrote: »

This never made sense to me. When you hire a builder, aren't you essentially renting out his muscles for the day? Stripping and prostitution are services, and I don't think they "sell their bodies" any more than binmen or miners.

I would've agreed at one stage! My logical side speaking louder than my emotional side!

What changed my mind for me however was reading a thread on going to the gym (can't remember where I read it). Female posters were saying how uncomfortable they felt if they looked sweaty and unpresentable, whereas the males posters didn't mind how they themselves looked. What stood out for me was the male poster who said 'But if you look sweaty and red, it reminds men of how you look when you have sex'. It got lots of thanks from male posters (not that there's anything wrong with that, men are human too : P)

And it got me thinking: does the act of sex make women feel vulnerable? Is this why some women want separate gyms? Is this why some women feel uncomfortable when they see naked pictures of women in papers/ or naked women selling themselves in strip clubs? A man using his muscles to build a house is in no way vulnerable, he probably feels quite strong and in control.

I don't know many people who like to feel vulnerable, or feel that they're not in control of a situation. That post in the gym thread struck a chord with me, maybe it strikes a chord for other women too....I don't know.

Permabear

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Feeona

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes people have the right to do what they want. I'm not arguing against that.

It just seems to me that too often women get hostile treatment if they dare open their mouths about something that makes them feel uncomfortable. I can personally see why some women find stripping/posters of naked women etc off putting. I don't think it's a case of 'something else to complain about', I think it's a deep seated response to feeling vulnerable. It can't be dismissed with cries of 'Well there are pictures of naked men everywhere' because I don't believe that men feel vulnerable about sex to the same extent as women do. I realised I felt like this when I read the gym thread I talked about in my last post.

Very serious on a Friday afternoon eh! And I should be studying

Kooli

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm afraid that the days are long gone when the only time you could see a naked lady was by buying and opening a particular newspaper.

If anyone knows of any way not to be assaulted with oversexualised images of naked or half-naked women day in and day out, please do let me know!!

Permabear

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Feeona

donegalfella wrote: »

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True, but the general idea of men ogling naked women can be hard for some people to take, for the reason I outlined before

I've been to more than one garage where they've had posters of naked women for all the world to see. So try them

Feeona

Feeona wrote: »

True, but the general idea of men ogling naked women can be hard for some people to take, for the reason I outlined before

They'd do that in private anyway

Kazuma

Feeona wrote: »

True, but the general idea of men ogling naked women can be hard for some people to take, for the reason I outlined before

I've been to more than one garage where they've had posters of naked women for all the world to see. So try them

I have difficulty understanding this...
Many men ogle women, many women ogle men - I've always seen this as fact more than anything else, I don't even see the problem.

Permabear

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Dudess

Feeona wrote: »

What changed my mind for me however was reading a thread on going to the gym (can't remember where I read it). Female posters were saying how uncomfortable they felt if they looked sweaty and unpresentable, whereas the males posters didn't mind how they themselves looked. What stood out for me was the male poster who said 'But if you look sweaty and red, it reminds men of how you look when you have sex'. It got lots of thanks from male posters (not that there's anything wrong with that, men are human too : P)

And it got me thinking: does the act of sex make women feel vulnerable?

To me personally, it just seems like the women on that thread feel uncomfortable about not looking their best (in their opinions) in public - I'm not sure whether it goes as deep as the act of sex causing vulnerability. I think so anyway...

I generally don't like saying such-and-such is a "fact" or a "reality" but in this case, I think it's fair to say the female form is pleasing to the eye: fact. :pac:
Possibly more pleasing than the male form.
Personally speaking, I'm a heterosexual woman and I still think a naked woman in great shape looks better than a naked man in great shape - not sexually, as women don't turn me on, but purely coming from an aesthetic perspective.
The female form being pleasing to the eye is not a bad, nasty, sexist thing - it's just a fact of life, it's natural, as is enjoyment of looking at it. Therefore, the censuring of this, ostensibly a natural phenomenon, sets a dangerous precedent IMO. Objectification of women or not, if there were a global banning of any sexual images of women whatsoever, it still wouldn't obliterate the enjoyment men/women have of the female form.
I also think e.g. burlesque ("artier" perhaps but still stripping) can look amazing. Leaving out the sex/sexiness factor: with the level of skill required, I'd deem it something of an art form. Ditto pole-dancing - incredibly acrobatic moves requiring extremely high levels of fitness, strength and suppleness. I totally understand a woman wanting to do either for a living - wouldn't mind it meself!
I also think it makes excellent business sense to make money out of your body if you've got a good one. You won't have it forever...

I am bearing in mind that I'm an educated woman living in Western Europe, and therefore a lot less likely to be a victim of sex trafficking, and I've no doubt there are some ultra creepy customers the women are less than happy about having to do private dances for... but at the same time, as already mentioned, these links between stripping and sex slavery seem pretty tenuous (IMO).

I do find page 3 a bit crass though - don't know why... Maybe it's because it's so random and seemingly out of context - the way it's just plonked at the start of a newspaper. And the way someone actually thought "I know - tits with your cornflakes!"

Feeona

donegalfella wrote: »

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I do take my business elsewhere....hit them where it hurts is what I say . But I still think women in Iceland have a right to say that strip clubs are p*ssing them off, and they can hardly do it through the market route though, seeing as they're not customers!

If people want to ban homosexuality, that's their business. They have the freedom to express themselves. If it ever came to that however, I wouldn't agree with it because I don't feel vulnerable at the thought of homosexuality.

Dudess wrote: »

I do find page 3 a bit crass though - don't know why... Maybe it's because it's so random and seemingly out of context - the way it's just plonked at the start of a newspaper. And the way someone actually thought "I know - tits with your cornflakes!"

When I see these pictures, my first reaction is 'ugh', which is swiftly followed by the PC stance 'but they've every right to have tits with their cornflakes'.

Which is right-the gut reaction, or the logical reaction?

Out of interest, why does the fact it's out of context make you feel uncomfortable? Where is the discomfort coming from? I've already said where my discomfort is coming from, but it took me a long time to come to terms with why I was uncomfortable with pictures/sex industry etc.

Lockstep

Feeona wrote: »

I do take my business elsewhere....hit them where it hurts is what I say . But I still think women in Iceland have a right to say that strip clubs are p*ssing them off, and they can hardly do it through the market route though, seeing as they're not customers!

But it boils down to; why should they be able to dictate what they can and can't do with themselves?
Why should their right to express themselves trump a person's right to work/strip or another person's right to pay for the service of watching?
DF point on homosexuality is a good one. Noone is denying that we have a right to say what pisses us off, but it's another to transform that morality into a law and use it against others.

Feeona wrote: »

If people want to ban homosexuality, that's their business. They have the freedom to express themselves. If it ever came to that however, I wouldn't agree with it because I don't feel vulnerable at the thought of homosexuality.

It really, really isn't their business to carry it out though. To use freedom of expression to suppress others makes a very mockery of the term.

Feeona wrote: »

When I see these pictures, my first reaction is 'ugh', which is swiftly followed by the PC stance 'but they've every right to have tits with their cornflakes'.

GUaranteeing a person's right to do with their own body what they will is not PC.

Feeona wrote: »

Which is right-the gut reaction, or the logical reaction?

THe logical one. There's a hell of a lot of things that I personally have a gut aversion to but logic has to win out.

Feeona wrote: »

Out of interest, why does the fact it's out of context make you feel uncomfortable? Where is the discomfort coming from? I've already said where my discomfort is coming from, but it took me a long time to come to terms with why I was uncomfortable with pictures/sex industry etc.

If you're uncomfortable with it that's fine. Write a letter, protest or whatever. But using the law to tell others what they can and can't do in a self-regarding action is not on.

Permabear

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pollypocket10

I felt compelled to post on this topic. It's a conversation I've had many times over the years and rarely have I come across anyone that agrees with my views. As open minded as I am, this is a topic that I haven't yet heard an argument that would sway my opinion.

Stripping/ sexual objectification however you want to refer to it is very damaging. Traditionally it's been a problem that mainly effects women, but it is also becoming a predominant male issue.

It degrades women and devalues their worth in society to that as a mere vessel for sexual gratification with complete disregard for their mental, intellectual or physical ability. It has huge repercussions on women in society in general. It places huge pressure on us to look a certain way. No matter how talented a woman may be intellectually or physically, she still feels the pressure to look a certain way, after all you can't truly be successful in life unless you can attract a man. Not to mention the multiple other repercussions it has eg, eating disorders, trafficking, rape etc.

I don't doubt that as long as there is a market for it then the sex industry will exist in all it's many forms but just because it's widespread doesn't mean it's ok. Similarly just because some women choose of their own free will to contribute doesn't make it ok.

Another issue, which is a whole other argument is the amount of women who actually choose these professions on the more serious end of the scale which is prostitution, brothels, strip clubs I doubt that any significant number choose this as a trade, and most are trafficked or feel coerced due to their own financial situations.

Just my 2 cents, I think it's all too easy to brush it off with 'it's all consensual and just a bit of craic so no harm done. The repercussions in society are numerous and far reaching.

Dudess

Feeona wrote: »

Out of interest, why does the fact it's out of context make you feel uncomfortable? Where is the discomfort coming from? I've already said where my discomfort is coming from, but it took me a long time to come to terms with why I was uncomfortable with pictures/sex industry etc.

Page 3 doesn't make me uncomfortable - it just looks a bit crass I think. You're reading news stories and suddenly - BAM!

pollypocket10 wrote: »

It degrades women and devalues their worth in society to that as a mere vessel for sexual gratification with complete disregard for their mental, intellectual or physical ability.

How though? For instance, I don't have a problem with stripping and I also most certainly don't think women are mere vessels for sexual gratification. If stripping causes people to think that way about women in general, then I'd say they're few and far between. And very stupid.
And also, I know you're aware of this, but still: many women WANT to strip.

It has huge repercussions on women in society in general. It places huge pressure on us to look a certain way. No matter how talented a woman may be intellectually or physically, she still feels the pressure to look a certain way

Stripping is only one of the many, many things that puts that message out - and it is one of the lesser culprits too (in my opinion).

Not to mention the multiple other repercussions it has eg, eating disorders, trafficking, rape etc.

Stripping leads to eating disorders, trafficking (perhaps some strippers from overseas are trafficked to e.g. here, granted - stripping doesn't cause it though), rape?

just because it's widespread doesn't mean it's ok. Similarly just because some women choose of their own free will to contribute doesn't make it ok.

Why not?

The repercussions in society are numerous and far reaching.

From a woman taking her clothes off and dancing?

pollypocket10

[QUOTE=Dudess;65798938
How though? For instance, I don't have a problem with stripping and I also most certainly don't think women are mere vessels for sexual gratification. If stripping causes people to think that way about women in general, then I'd say they're few and far between. And very stupid.
And also, I know you're aware of this, but still: many women WANT to strip.
:[/QUOTE]
How? The answer was in my post, by totally disregarding their other abilities. Stripping DOES cause people to think this way about women, sexual objectification in the media also does. Extensive studies in this field have shown this time and again.

You yourself think it's ok to view a woman this way if you think it's ok for he to strip. They aren't doing it for intellectual stimulation, it's for mere sexual gratification. Why should it be ok in one instance and not in another? And where do you draw a line? Is stripping ok but prostitution not?

Yes I am aware that SOME women want to strip, it's the minority of people in the trade that enjoy it. Some women do it because despite not enjoying it, the remuneration is good, some are trafficked to Western countries to do it, some feel they have no other means to put food on the table.


[QUOTE=Dudess;65798938
Stripping is only one of the many, many things that puts that message out - and it is one of the lesser culprits too (in my opinion).
[/QUOTE]

I agree that it one of many but certainly not that it is one of the lesser culprits. Sexual objectification in the media is a major contributor also but it's all interlinked, the media is generally just a toned down, more socially acceptable version of what happens in a strip club.


[QUOTE=Dudess;65798938
Stripping leads to eating disorders, trafficking (perhaps some strippers from overseas are trafficked to e.g. here, granted - stripping doesn't cause it though), rape?

[/QUOTE]

Of course it causes trafficking, if there was no sex industry then there would be no demand to traffic these women. Simple fact is, in western society the majority of women do not want to strip, so vulnerable women are coerced under false promises and threats to come here and forced to satisfy that demand.

Now I seriously doubt that any person without extremely questionable morals is "ok" with an industry that encourages these sort of activities.

Rapists generally view women as mere objects, a view that is reinforced by stripping and sexual objectification. It's a view that makes society unsafe for women and can lead to increase instances of rape.


[QUOTE=Dudess;65798938

Why not?
[/QUOTE]

For all the reasons I've mentioned above, and many more.


[QUOTE=Dudess;65798938


From a woman taking her clothes off and dancing? [/QUOTE]

Yes, I'd take some time to do a bit of research on google scholar and in news archives if you'd like to find out more about the criminal activity and damage to society that occurs because of the existence of this industry.

Little My

On a really really simple level:

I don't like being leered at.

Women who get money because men leer at them, be they in strip-clubs, magazines and or the tabloids, help to normalize leering and so some men think its okay.

So it objectifies women - it turns 'women' into an object for the male gaze, and while it might be liberating for a small minority of women, to be leered at is not liberating for a lot of women.

(I have just ordered this book & looking forward to reading it. Some of the reviews are so-so so I can't wait to make up my own mind. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Living-Dolls-Return-Natasha-Walter/dp/1844084841)

Dudess

I'll have to agree to disagree with you Polly. I mean, I take what you're saying about sexual exploitation (obviously an horrific reality) but I don't think that's going to disappear with the outright banning of strip-clubs. The ones where there is malpractice should be shut down of course, but those which are regulated and the women are treated correctly (and well paid) - it seems wrong to deny the punters... and the workers.
I dunno... what's wrong with a woman capitalising on her body of her own free will? This notion that she shouldn't because it's bowing down to misogyny seems... kinda misogynistic (well a variant of it) also tbh - a bit bordering on the "dirtypillows" kinda stuff Carrie's mom goes on about in the Stephen King novel. A woman's body is a number of things - one of those is sexual. And why not?

I just don't think an outright banning would bode well - like, there is exploitation of Coca Cola workers... so should all soft drinks be banned? Ditto clothing, footwear, coffee, chocolate.
And using the term "sex industry" as a panacea - it isn't this nasty, evil empire... it's multi-faceted, and some bits are fine, some aren't. Like any industry.

I also think men should be given a lot more credit than "it makes men think it's normal for women to be sexual objects" - to be fair.

Little My

Dudess wrote: »

...A woman's body is a number of things - one of those is sexual. And why not?
...
I just don't think an outright banning would bode well - like, there is exploitation of Coca Cola workers... so should all soft drinks be banned?...

I also think men should be given a lot more credit than "it makes men think it's normal for women to be sexual objects" - to be fair.

A woman's body is a number of things. But I would argue that in current society, it is seen as primarily sexual, due to the proliferation of sexual images in contemporary media.(I should say a young woman's body, sexualisation of older women is not much seen in the media)

I really don't see how we can prevent the exploitation of sex-workers - it will always be impossible for authorities to know how well each individual woman is treated or whether they are being forced to do it. Even in countries where there are legal brothels, there are illegal ones. So legalising it has not stopped the problem of exploitation. Banning it doesnt stop them either, but it least it is a clear declaration from that society that they have decided it is wrong.

And as for the idea that it normalises objectification of women? For some men, it does, and some men are enough to make it an issue.

Permabear

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Little My

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You have misunderstood what I meant.


The banning of strip clubs by Iceland is a clear statement from 'that society' i.e Iceland, and it reflects the majority view in iceland that strip clubs are wrong.

Just like the fact that prostitution is illegal here reflects the fact that the majority of people in this society believe prostitution is wrong.

In this case, I was not taking about 'society' as a social construct, i was talking about 'that society' i.e iceland.

Permabear

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Iago

Little My wrote: »

Just like the fact that prostitution is illegal here

no it's not