Question for Christians who believe that non-Christians go to hell

dvpower

PDN wrote: »

If they were to live a sinless life - then yes.

So would I be right in assuming that the difference between a Christian and a non believer (in this respect) is that a Christian can have sins forgiven and avoid hell even if he had previously sinned (but was repentant etc), but forgiveness is not open to a non believer?

Or is it just that non believers are much more likely to sin than Christians?

iUseVi

PDN wrote: »

Unfortunately this is what happens when an atheist purports to be stating a Christian position. You have a problem with Wicknightianism, not Christianity as I understand it.

Babies exist and live and breath without saying. You sin when you choose to do stuff that is wrong.

I'm not purporting anything. This is a position held by many Christians. This does not represent your position and that's fine but it represents many people's position. The view I grew up with was that people were born into sin.

But even if you disagree with this there's still another issue. We cannot help but "sin". It seems to be in our nature. If we are created this way how is it our fault? Asking someone to never sin is like asking someone to never breathe.

PDN

iUseVi wrote: »

I'm not purporting anything.

Er, if you read my post again you will see I never said you you were purporting anything.

Wicknight purported to give the Christian position, and then you responded to his post. So you were a were expressing a problem you have with an atheist's idea of Christianity.

But even if you disagree with this there's still another issue. We cannot help but "sin". It seems to be in our nature. If we are created this way how is it our fault? Asking someone to never sin is like asking someone to never breathe.

That may well be a reasonable objection to Calvinism or Roman Catholicism.

Many, probably most, Christians hold to an Arminian view of original sin. This holds that we are born with an inward bent or inclination towards sin, but we are responsible for each individual instance where we choose to sin or not.

dvpower

PDN wrote: »

I think that depends on the circumstances. There is such a thing as wilful unbelief - where people choose to believe something because it suits them. That, IMHO, is sinful.

But then there is non-belief (maybe where someone never even heard of the concept of a god) or honest unbelief (where someone is genuinely intellectually unable to accept God's existence). I personally wouldn't see either of these as being sinning.

Do you mean through an intellectual disability or does this include those who are rationally unable to accept God's existence?

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

If they were to live a sinless life - then yes.

Are you saying that everyone is born with a clean slate? If so, then why do babies die? Is it that we inherit the wages of sin since the fall but without inheriting the stain of sin?

I'm just thinking of when Jesus says to the cripple, 'Your sins are forgiven you', and he is cured. He seems to imply that sin itself is what causes all our inherant miseries. Once his sins were forgiven, he was cured.

Also, if we hold to the 'clean slate' road, then God has destroyed 'innocent' people has he not? The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah etc.

Not sure myself, but the 'clean slate' road opens up questions.

I heard a good analogy once for the whole 'inherant sin' thing. Imagine the mould for making a loaf tin. Its capable of dishing out nice shapely loaf tins, which produce nice symetrical loaves of bread. Now put a big dent in the mould. You will now produce loaf tins with dents in them, which will in turn, produce unshapely loaves. Adam was our mould, and all the offspring of Adam bare the 'dent'.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

. And at least one will tell you that there's no hell.

Just in case this was a reference to someone who reasons as I do, I wish to point out the following:
I 'do' believe in The lake of fire/hell. I simply don't hold to the doctrine of it being a place of eternal conscious suffering etc.

antiskeptic

PDN wrote: »

Wicknight purported to give the Christian position, and then you responded to his post. So you were a were expressing a problem you have with an atheist's idea of Christianity.

antiskeptic

iUseVi wrote: »

antiskeptic, I'm assuming he exists for the sake of this discussion. That was an epic dodge right there on a technicality. Please re-answer those points from this viewpoint. My points still deserve attention I think. Assuming god exists please.

If your arguing from the position of one who knows God exists then you are arguing as if a Christian - in which case you can't be blackmailed by God. If you're arguing from the position of assuming God exists for the sake of argument then you are engaged in an intellectual exercise which permits you to examine the Christian perspective from the position of being an unbeliever. As an unbeliever, you can't be blackmailed by God.

There is a third option, whether you like it or not. One where no one pays for the wrongdoing. Me forgiving my partner has no effect on me. I am not "punished".

Forgiveness doesn't come free. IF your fiance keys your car in an unjustified rage AND you forgive her THEN you pay for the respray OR you put up with a keyed car.

No, once again I absolutely do not agree that all wrongdoing deserves punishment.

Which wrongdoing doesn't deserve punishment? Could you be more specific?

I choose to forgive not because I'm super awesome, but precisely because I don't think they deserve punishment. Someone who makes a mistake is not "evil" in my view, but simply human.

What's with the politicians double-speak? A mistake isn't wrong - it's a mistake. I'm not talking about taking a wrong turn, or forgetting to put the clock forward. I'm talking about wrong: selfishness, greed, sloth, envy..

antiskeptic

iUseVi wrote: »

I've just posted something on another thread about this. As much as I hate to be hijacking two threads, this really bothers me. If just by existing and breathing and living - I am sinning, how can I possibly be to blame for this?

As far as I'm aware, neither existing nor breathing are sins.

antiskeptic

dvpower wrote: »

So would I be right in assuming that the difference between a Christian and a non believer (in this respect) is that a Christian can have sins forgiven and avoid hell even if he had previously sinned (but was repentant etc), but forgiveness is not open to a non believer?

Or is it just that non believers are much more likely to sin than Christians?

Better said:

A Christian might be defined as "a sinning unbeliever who has had all (and will have all) his sins forgiven. At the same moment as that forgiveness transaction occured, the sinning unbeliever was tranformed into being a believer".

A non-believer might be defined as "a sinning unbeliever who has not had his sins forgiven. This is not to say he will never have. If he does have he will made a Christian by God too"


There are only two kinds of people in the world in this respect: those who have been forgiven all. And those who have not been. Lost and Found

getz

am i wrong in believing that being a christian meens that no one has yet gone to heaven/hell untill the resurrection/last judgement ?or do catholics know somthing the rest of us dont know ?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Unfortunately this is what happens when an atheist purports to be stating a Christian position. You have a problem with Wicknightianism, not Christianity as I understand it.

Er, if you actually bothered to read my post you will see that I didn't say that. My statement was exactly in line with your own expression of sin and Christianity. Not my fault iUseVi misunderstood what I (and you) were saying.

So what we have here is you misrepresenting Wicknightianism

Which is quite hilariously ironic :rolleyes:

Lucky for you I, as the head of my religion, choose not to banish you to a place of eternal suffering and desperation (aka Longford)

Zombrex

iUseVi wrote: »

If just by existing and breathing and living - I am sinning, how can I possibly be to blame for this?

As has already been pointed out you aren't sinning by "just" existing and breathing. You are sinning by carrying out sinful acts.

The issue is can you go your whole life and not sin, ie not do something that is a sin.

Some Christians say no some say yes. Some say you can but you won't, which to me is like saying no and calls into question what is the nature of the "choice" that Christians talk about when they say you choose to sin.

PDN

getz wrote: »

am i wrong in believing that being a christian meens that no one has yet gone to heaven/hell untill the resurrection/last judgement ?or do catholics know somthing the rest of us dont know ?

Ah, now things are going to get more complicated.

My understanding of the Bible is that no-one has gone to hell yet. The souls and spirits of the unsaved dead are currently waiiting in a place called Hades (often mistranslated as 'hell' in the King James Version of the Bible). Hades, according to what Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is no bundle of laughs either. After the Return of Christ there will be a resurrection from the dead and these people will go to hell.

The souls and spirits of the saved, as I understand Scripture, are in the presence of God (perhaps better understood as another dimension than a physical location). This is what we commonly call 'heaven'. Howevr, heaven is not their final eternal destination. After the Return of Christ they too will be resurrected, God will dwell on a new earth, and the saved will be with Him there.

Of course not all our Christian posters will agree with me over all the details.

getz

PDN wrote: »

Ah, now things are going to get more complicated.

My understanding of the Bible is that no-one has gone to hell yet. The souls and spirits of the unsaved dead are currently waiiting in a place called Hades (often mistranslated as 'hell' in the King James Version of the Bible). Hades, according to what Jesus taught in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, is no bundle of laughs either. After the Return of Christ there will be a resurrection from the dead and these people will go to hell.

The souls and spirits of the saved, as I understand Scripture, are in the presence of God (perhaps better understood as another dimension than a physical location). This is what we commonly call 'heaven'. Howevr, heaven is not their final eternal destination. After the Return of Christ they too will be resurrected, God will dwell on a new earth, and the saved will be with Him there.

Of course not all our Christian posters will agree with me over all the details.

thanks PDN ,next time my spirit guide gets in contact,i will ask him if he is in heaven or hades[greek mythology]

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

This is what we commonly call 'heaven'. Howevr, heaven is not their final eternal destination. After the Return of Christ they too will be resurrected, God will dwell on a new earth, and the saved will be with Him there.

Of course not all our Christian posters will agree with me over all the details.

At this point, I would usually chime in and complain about the conflicting influence of platonism that stands against the NT promise of a "new heavens and a new earth".

eia340600

StormWarrior wrote: »

If you genuinely believe that non-christians go to hell, how do you feel about this, considering that some of your friends will probably go there? Also, if you have a non-Christian child, how do you feel about them going there, and do you feel that it's unfair of God? This is a genuinely serious question, I've been wondering about this for a while. Do you feel that you will enjoy your time in heaven knowing that others are suffering?

I think that the most important message Christ gave us is that if you show people love and kindness and try your best to be a good person, regardless of what your belief is, you will be shown compassion and forgiveness.This message is particularly clear when Jesus forgives Mary of Magdala of her sins.
-So to answer your first question I don't think any of my friends will go to hell.
-In answer to your second question, I think it would be fair of God if my child was someone who relished in the pain and suffering of others, but he is forgiving if my child changes their ways and trys to be a good person.(try being the operative word, as noone is perfect).
-I wouldn't.But the main message of the Christ is that there are really very few people that deserve to go to hell.

In other words I don't think non-christians go to hell..Just people who have a choice between something that will make things either better for people or worse for people and they generally pick the latter-even if they KNOW it's wrong.

PDN

getz wrote: »

thanks PDN ,next time my spirit guide gets in contact,i will ask him if he is in heaven or hades[greek mythology]

If you have a spirit guide the answer should be neither, since I was referring to the destination of people not demons.

The Septuagint Greek translation of the Old Testamment borrowed the word 'Hades' in order to translate the Hebrew word 'Sheol' - which is probably older than Greek mythology.

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

Some Christians say no some say yes. Some say you can but you won't, which to me is like saying no and calls into question what is the nature of the "choice" that Christians talk about when they say you choose to sin.

If free will can go either left or right - without being unduly swayed one way or the other then life can be considered a very large number of honest coin tosses.

It's possible to throw a million heads in a row. But only in your dreams.

antiskeptic

eia340600 wrote: »

I think that the most important message Christ gave us is that if you show people love and kindness and try your best to be a good person, regardless of what your belief is, you will be shown compassion and forgiveness.

It would help establish your position if you could find a place where Jesus uses (or unambiguously implies) the words 'try your best' in relation to our deeds contributing to our gaining a place in heaven/being forgiven in the only way that matters.

iUseVi

antiskeptic wrote: »

If your arguing from the position of one who knows God exists then you are arguing as if a Christian - in which case you can't be blackmailed by God. If you're arguing from the position of assuming God exists for the sake of argument then you are engaged in an intellectual exercise which permits you to examine the Christian perspective from the position of being an unbeliever. As an unbeliever, you can't be blackmailed by God.

Why cannot you as a believer be blackmailed by God? You have a dichotomy. Either love God or go to hell. This is why I have a problem with hell as a place that people go. To me it would make more sense for hell to be non-existence or oblivion.

"As an unbeliever, you can't be blackmailed by God." Umm yes I can. The fact that I don't believe in him has no bearing on whether or not he exists. And since I am assuming he does, I also have the same dichotomy. Either I love god, or I go to hell. Please antiskeptic, your last two posts you haven't addressed this at all, you've dodged all over.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Forgiveness doesn't come free. IF your fiance keys your car in an unjustified rage AND you forgive her THEN you pay for the respray OR you put up with a keyed car.

But putting up with the keyed car is not punishment for me. I love my partner and it wouldn't bother me for one second. True forgiveness is truly free IMO. Which is why hell bothers me. I get heaven - its a reward for those who love and serve God. If you don't want to love God you don't get to go to heaven. Fair's fair. But people getting punished for not loving someone I have a problem with.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Which wrongdoing doesn't deserve punishment? Could you be more specific?

What's with the politicians double-speak? A mistake isn't wrong - it's a mistake. I'm not talking about taking a wrong turn, or forgetting to put the clock forward. I'm talking about wrong: selfishness, greed, sloth, envy..

If I am greedy and take the last slice of pizza, or I am slothful and come into work late, or I am envious of something and I steal that thing.....these are all mistakes. It should be expected that humans make these mistakes and if I love someone these things would not bother me. I could forgive them without any punishment necessary.

What you see as "sin" I see as human's making mistakes. And yes this includes greed and sloth etc.

PDN

iUseVi wrote: »

If I am greedy and take the last slice of pizza, or I am slothful and come into work late, or I am envious of something and I steal that thing.....these are all mistakes. It should be expected that humans make these mistakes and if I love someone these things would not bother me. I could forgive them without any punishment necessary.

What you see as "sin" I see as human's making mistakes. And yes this includes greed and sloth etc.

And what if your (and mine, for none of us are guiltless) greed , slothfulness and selfishness help perpetuate an unjust economic system which condemns thousands of babies to die every day of malnutrition?

Should the parents of those babies shrug their shoulders and happily forgive us because, after all, no punishment is necessary since we were just committing mistakes?

What if our greed, slothfulness and selfishness degrade the environment of this planet to the point where subsistence farmers in the Sudan find their formerly fertile fields have turned to dust? As they lie starving, should they, with their last gasp of breath, forgive us for our mistakes?

What if our greed, slothfulness and selfishness keep putting governments into power that facilitate military activities in Iraq - littering children's playgrounds with depleted uranium and causing horrific birth defects? What about the Iraqi mother whose child looks like the Elephant Man? Should she be content in knowing that our actions were just mistakes?

And what if all these people knew that we were sitting in our comfortable Western home or office and blithly posting on the internet, while we virtuously sip our Fair Trade Coffee, and arguing that we deserve no punishment since all we are doing is committing 'mistakes'? Do you think they would agree with us? Or do you think that, with their dying breath, they might cry out for justice?

The fact is that all of our actions help contribute to a massive amount of injustice, death and evil. We can fess up to that, or we can point fingers at the politicians and pretend we are guiltless.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

If free will can go either left or right - without being unduly swayed one way or the other then life can be considered a very large number of honest coin tosses.

It's possible to throw a million heads in a row. But only in your dreams.

Isn't that the point though.

Say you are hanging off a bridge. You obviously don't want to fall to your death in the river below. But gradually as you hang there your arms get tired and sore. After hours hanging there the pain in your arms is so great you let go because you just can't hang on any more.

Now, did you choose to fall into the river?

If the pressure from our sinful natures, inherited from Adam's punishment, is so great that eventually everyone succomes to it, is that really choice?

iUseVi

PDN wrote: »

And what if your (and mine, for none of us are guiltless) greed , slothfulness and selfishness help perpetuate an unjust economic system which condemns thousands of babies to die every day of malnutrition?

Should the parents of those babies shrug their shoulders and happily forgive us because, after all, no punishment is necessary since we were just committing mistakes?

What if our greed, slothfulness and selfishness degrade the environment of this planet to the point where subsistence farmers in the Sudan find their formerly fertile fields have turned to dust? As they lie starving, should they, with their last gasp of breath, forgive us for our mistakes?

What if our greed, slothfulness and selfishness keep putting governments into power that facilitate military activities in Iraq - littering children's playgrounds with depleted uranium and causing horrific birth defects? What about the Iraqi mother whose child looks like the Elephant Man? Should she be content in knowing that our actions were just mistakes?

And what if all these people knew that we were sitting in our comfortable Western home or office and blithly posting on the internet, while we virtuously sip our Fair Trade Coffee, and arguing that we deserve no punishment since all we are doing is committing 'mistakes'? Do you think they would agree with us? Or do you think that, with their dying breath, they might cry out for justice?

The fact is that all of our actions help contribute to a massive amount of injustice, death and evil. We can fess up to that, or we can point fingers at the politicians and pretend we are guiltless.

So do you think this justifies a hell where people are in eternal pain or torture? The fact that you and I are in a position to post blithely on the internet and drink fair trade coffee is not our fault, we were born into it.

I think there is a (subtle) difference between voting for a politician that is instrumental in instigating a war and pulling out an AK47 and doing the killing yourself.

Its a bit like putting rat in a cage where to get to food it must walk over switches that kill or harm other rats. Every action the rat takes causes more harm; analogous to the things you describe above. The only way for the rat to do no harm to fellow rats is not to move at all and starve to death. Now, it is hardly fair to then torture and punish the rat the harm it caused. This is how I would see gods casting into hell of people. Even a murderer doesn't deserve eternal torture.

I am not saying that rapists and murderers should not be punished, but seeing as god caused us to be born into a system where every action indirectly causes harm, I don't think it just for god to then cast us into outer darkness and gnashing of teeth for something we had no choice in.

"Do you think they would agree with us? Or do you think that, with their dying breath, they might cry out for justice?" Justice would be if the people directly involved are punished. Punishing you and I fair trade coffee drinkers would not be justice but would be revenge and retribution. Revenge is not just. We have no wish to cause any of the suffering you have above described.

antiskeptic

iUseVi wrote: »

Why cannot you as a believer be blackmailed by God? You have a dichotomy. Either love God or go to hell.

I don't have that dilemma for I've been exposed to God.

You would appreciate that if God is overwhelmingly lovable (and assuming that I've no reason to fear him cravenly on account of my forgiven sin) it follows that I'm not in a position anymore not to love him.

God has nothing to blackmail me with if he's made it impossible for me not to love him.

"As an unbeliever, you can't be blackmailed by God." Umm yes I can. The fact that I don't believe in him has no bearing on whether or not he exists. And since I am assuming he does, I also have the same dichotomy. Either I love god, or I go to hell. Please antiskeptic, your last two posts you haven't addressed this at all, you've dodged all over.

Okay, okay, keep your hat on..

The correct approach it is NOT supposing you have to do something to work up love for God. Being in a state of love w.r.t. God is something that you are placed into by God by virtue of being saved. And so we can restate the above:

Either you are saved. Or you go to Hell.


That doesn't seem like blackmail. That seems like options. If you're not the one the clearly you must be the other.

But putting up with the keyed car is not punishment for me. I love my partner and it wouldn't bother me for one second.

Forget the keying and let it be burnt out. Would that bother you for one second? If not, then how about your house (after she's cancelled the insurance).

Don't confuse willingness to forgive with it costing you nothing. That you are happy to pay the cost doesn't alter the fact you have to pay.

True forgiveness is truly free IMO.

Truly free for the forgiven. Not for the forgiver. If it costs you nothing then there is nothing to forgive. If you don't believe me then let me key your car and see how easy forgiveness comes

Which is why hell bothers me. I get heaven - its a reward for those who love and serve God. If you don't want to love God you don't get to go to heaven. Fair's fair. But people getting punished for not loving someone I have a problem with.

Hopefully the place for loving God is made clear above. It's a consequence of being saved.

That said; your response to what God represents (goodness, selflessness, kindness, patience, love, etc) does determine whether you end up saved or not. If you love/like/prefer what he represents then you'll meet up with God 'in heaven'. If you love/like/prefer what he doesn't represent then you won't

Call it loving God one-step-removed. Your answer to his question "what do you love" determines your eternal destination.

(Don't worry untowardly if you find you love both at times - God uses your love of evil things to assist in the attempt to save you from that love)

If I am greedy and take the last slice of pizza, or I am slothful and come into work late, or I am envious of something and I steal that thing.....these are all mistakes.

It should be expected that humans make these mistakes and if I love someone these things would not bother me. I could forgive them without any punishment necessary.

What's in a word. If you want to call someone mugging you a "mistake" then by all means...

The point stands. In order to forgive these 'mistakes' you have to bear the cost.

Fanny Cradock

iUseVi wrote: »

Even a murderer doesn't deserve eternal torture.

It has been posited that hell is not a place of active punishment, rather it is the eternal separation from God, the source of all good.

iUseVi wrote: »

I am not saying that rapists and murderers should not be punished, but seeing as god caused us to be born into a system where every action indirectly causes harm, I don't think it just for god to then cast us into outer darkness and gnashing of teeth for something we had no choice in.

"Every action indirectly causes harm" Do you actually believe this?

I find it odd that you would somehow attempt to equivocate the crime of murder and rape but passing the cosmic buck. Murders and rapists are responsible for their actions. Ultimately it is their choice.

antiskeptic

Wicknight wrote: »

If the pressure from our sinful natures, inherited from Adam's punishment, is so great that eventually everyone succomes to it, is that really choice?

I wasn't supposing that in my set up. Free will doesn't have pressure exerting irresistable force (and although I don't consider we have freewill in the classic sense, I do think we have it effectively through God's counter-balancing of our own sin-enslaved will).

But start placing options in front of a freewill and you enter the realm of coin tossing. It's possible to throw a million heads in a row. It's just not going to happen.

Sam Vimes

iUseVi wrote: »

So do you think this justifies a hell where people are in eternal pain or torture? The fact that you and I are in a position to post blithely on the internet and drink fair trade coffee is not our fault, we were born into it.

I think there is a (subtle) difference between voting for a politician that is instrumental in instigating a war and pulling out an AK47 and doing the killing yourself.

Its a bit like putting rat in a cage where to get to food it must walk over switches that kill or harm other rats. Every action the rat takes causes more harm; analogous to the things you describe above. The only way for the rat to do no harm to fellow rats is not to move at all and starve to death. Now, it is hardly fair to then torture and punish the rat the harm it caused. This is how I would see gods casting into hell of people. Even a murderer doesn't deserve eternal torture.

I am not saying that rapists and murderers should not be punished, but seeing as god caused us to be born into a system where every action indirectly causes harm, I don't think it just for god to then cast us into outer darkness and gnashing of teeth for something we had no choice in.

"Do you think they would agree with us? Or do you think that, with their dying breath, they might cry out for justice?" Justice would be if the people directly involved are punished. Punishing you and I fair trade coffee drinkers would not be justice but would be revenge and retribution. Revenge is not just. We have no wish to cause any of the suffering you have above described.

You're not really being punished for commiting sin. There is no way that this punishment can be avoided by trying to avoid commiting sin because we are all inherently, unavoidably, by our very nature sinners. You do not have the free will to choose not to be a sinner, you are one and there's nothing you can do about it so the relative morality or immorality of your actions on this planet are largely irrelevant to your salvation. The only way to avoid this punishment is to accept as true a story about a man who walked on water and raised from the dead 2000 years ago. If you don't believe the story then no life you could live will ever be good enough but if you do believe it then no crime is too horrific to be forgiven. The only truly immoral act in christianity is not picking one particular story among thousands to believe because it is the only choice that it is within your power to make.


All imo of course and I'm sure people will disagree with me.

iUseVi

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It has been posited that hell is not a place of active punishment, rather it is the eternal separation from God, the source of all good.

Well that's moving towards what I think a just situation should be. I think hell should be non-existence or oblivion.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

"Every action indirectly causes harm" Do you actually believe this?

I find it odd that you would somehow attempt to equivocate the crime of murder and rape but passing the cosmic buck. Murders and rapists are responsible for their actions. Ultimately it is their choice.

Yes I do believe that, I'm agreeing with PDN on that, read his examples for clarity.

I said that I thought rapists and murderers should be punished. I never said they were not responsible for their actions. What I have a problem with is infinite punishment. Infinite torture or infinite separation from God or whatever your concept of hell is.

Rape and murder are terrible terrible things. But I do think a leopard can change its spots (or shorts if you are a Pratchett fan :P).

Fanny Cradock

Sam Vimes wrote: »

You're not really being punished for commiting sin. There is no way that this punishment can be avoided by trying to avoid commiting sin because we are all inherently, unavoidably, by our very nature sinners. You do not have the free will to choose not to be a sinner, you are one and there's nothing you can do about it so the relative morality or immorality of your actions on this planet are largely irrelevant to your salvation. The only way to avoid this punishment is to accept as true a story about a man who walked on water and raised from the dead 2000 years ago. If you don't believe the story then no life you could live will ever be good enough but if you do believe it then no crime is too horrific to be forgiven. The only truly immoral act in christianity is not picking one particular story among thousands to believe because it is the only choice that it is within your power to make.


All imo of course and I'm sure people will disagree with me.

Why do you even bother to represent Christianity when you KNOW that you are going to do a bad job of it and piss Chrsitians off?

Oh, wait...