Does Ireland need a Thatcher?

dlofnep

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

As regards the hunger strikes, I think this is probably the source of the underlying "hatred" of Thatcher in Ireland.

Oh, of course it is. But with that being said, I still disagree with her politics beyond that. She was hated in Britain too for different reasons - and they were justified IMO.

Your OP was humorous But I've offered a brief overview of why I disagree with her politics.

granite man

We've the equal to Thatcher already. A govt that robs the poor to make the rich richer. Please never glamourise that scumbag again, a warmonger, murderer and thief. Have some respect to your fellow countrymen who gave their lives, especially this weekend.

Permabear

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population

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Actually a lot of closures of loss making mines did not save the government money, because it cost more to pay the unemployment benefits of the miners and the knock on effect on others who depended on the mines.

It was political not economic.

And the NUM were nuts to go ahead with a strike when there was 18 months of coal stockpilled

It is actually worth noting that the NUM were not aware of the stockpile, but that comes down to the idiocy of Scargill and his inner circle. I believed the miners had some legitamite grieviances but it always baffled me how that man won a popular vote to take charge of the Union. Also once he started refusing ballots it just became clear he was morphing his idols in adopting the worst aspects of Soviet totalitarianism. Maggie always got lucky with her enemies though.

population

donegalfella wrote: »

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Interesting post and though I disliked Thatcher and her policies immensley, it is beyond denial that Britain was in the hands of the IMF and, correct me if i am wrong, had actually defaulted on at least one occasion.

Permabear

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Sir Oxman

"who returned the Conservatives with a huge 144-seat majority in 1983 and supported Thatcher resolutely during the strikes. "

That is not a given. You have failed to factor in the Falklands, for some 'unknown ' reason.

Tut-tut.

population

Have to agree with Gambiaman on that one DF. The Falklands was a godsend for her in the same way that Scargill was

Capt'n Midnight

donegalfella wrote: »

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Conservative support fell by 1.5% and it fell at every election till Labour got in


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_1983
Party Seats vote
Conservative 397 42.3 % 13,012,316
Labour 209 27.6% 8,456,934
SDP-Liberal Alliance 23 25.4% 7,780,949

The Alliance got over 1/4 of the popular vote and only 3.5% of the seats
A classic example of first past the post in action :rolleyes:

Anonymous1987

Sure the Falklands and Scargill worked out well but thats only because Thatcher didn't back down in either case, another PM might have backed down as many previous conservative and labour PM's did. If you want to point out how Thatcher was lucky just examine the often overlooked matter of the black gold in the North Sea which happened to be found just as the coal industry became inefficient.

Thatcher was a radical at a time when a radical was what was needed, she was reported to have had slammed down Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" and proclaimed "this is what we believe in". While in my opinion her economic approach was a blunt instrument, with time and a fair amount of pain it was successful.

The idea Thatcher was a tyrant doesn't really hold she had majority (albeit somewhat variable) support as indicated by her decade in office however she had equal fervent opposers and as such was highly polarising, not all that surprising giving her radical nature.

Thatchers greatest success was taking on the unions, privatisation seemed to have mixed success and in my opinion she failed with welfare reform (for example the poll tax was not only unpopular but unfair and regressive). Overall though she succeed in turning around Britain and enjoyed great success.

To answer the question does Ireland need a Thatcher, I would say no. While we can complain about the union strikes the recent talks seem to show just how limited union power in Ireland actually is. I would be open to privatisation on a case by case basis though. My opinion is that the nature of the problems Britain faced at the time required a radical PM and Thatcher was just the one. While Ireland faces great problems also, it hasn't reached the level Britain faced then (at least from what I've read about Britain then) and the nature of our problems are different. Greece on the other hand needs a Thatcher!

Dynamo Roller

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Fine Gael are aiming to sell off the companies for a profit to be re-invested back into the recovery/stimulus, except they will keep the infrastructure.
They actually highlight Eircom as the way not to do it.

They seem to have plans for massive investment into infrastructure, fibre optic being one they have highlighted.

TBH, I can't wait until they get into power.
I think things will come back up way faster than anybody expects if FG get a majority.

Do you still feel the same about FG?

BillG

Joey the lips wrote: »

This was done before... Belive me ireland does not need a thatcher. She will be the only bitch whos death will be celebrated in the uk when she finally dies.

On the contrary, she died recently and was given a State Funeral with many more people mourning than celebrating. What many people forget was that she was brought to power and the re-elected twice with greater majorities. Britain needed her at the time. I remember the three day week, I remember the blackouts and the sense of hopeles desperation that pervaded the country at that time. She made her mistakes, she was not infallible, but she gave the country back the fight it needed and craved. She was a great leader.

MonkeyDoo

Personally I think Ireland is too small to justify privatization, the economies of scale just aren't there.

Waste bin privatisation was a disaster. I don't even have a choice of private bin provider where I live.

We have the some of worst telecoms infrastructure in Europe, a strategically important area handed over to foreign multinationals.

Gas competition is gimmicky at best.

Would Thatcher have bailed out the banks like Ireland did?

Maura74

I agree privatisation only benefits contractors/shareholders

LA's in UK have privatised some of their services and it looks like that it will continue to so more, however this only benefit the contractors not their council tax payers.

It appears that one the companies that LA uses Capita Asset Services, part of Capita plc, has been officially appointed by the National Asset Management Agency (‘NAMA’) in Ireland as primary and special loan servicer on the NAMA loans acquired under the NAMA Act 2009 and currently being managed on behalf of NAMA by the special liquidators, Irish Bank Resolution Corporation (‘IBRC’).

http://www.capita.co.uk/news-and-opinion/news/2013/capita-appointed-as-servicer-to-nama-in-ireland.aspx

There are about 20 or more LA in UK are using a company owned by this organisation and there is a concern that there maybe a conflict of interest

http://www.catherinesmyth.co.uk/images/stories/pdfs/bi_capita.pdf

http://www.capita.co.uk/news-and-opinion/news/2011/june/dvla-awards-capita-5-year-contract.aspx

ChRoMe

MonkeyDoo wrote: »

the economies of scale just aren't there.

This is the precise reason why its completely ridiculous to make comparisons between Ireland and the UK.

Apples and bowling balls.

goose2005

MonkeyDoo wrote: »

Would Thatcher have bailed out the banks like Ireland did?

There's nothing Thatcher wouldn't have done for the City.

hfallada

MonkeyDoo wrote: »

Personally I think Ireland is too small to justify privatization, the economies of scale just aren't there.

Waste bin privatisation was a disaster. I don't even have a choice of private bin provider where I live.

We have the some of worst telecoms infrastructure in Europe, a strategically important area handed over to foreign multinationals.

Gas competition is gimmicky at best.

Would Thatcher have bailed out the banks like Ireland did?

Bin privatisation worked in Dublin. Most people pay half of what they paid last year. Why should the tax payer should a loss making service that should at least break even.

Telecommunications is always going to be difficult to provide in Ireland. A majority of people live in cities & towns, but a lot live in the middle of no where( they choose to live there). Should the majority of people pay for the life style choices of others. If you want good services you should have to pay for them.

Gas competition is allowed fully yet, until BG only control 60% of the market. (EU rules).

MonkeyDoo

Sweeping Statement regarding the bins, pardon the pun. I live in Dublin

I am paying for more for bins, have no choice of bin provider, hence no competition. When the privatized bins companies leave a mess all over the street,or refuse to collect abandoned bags,have to call the council to clean it up anyway. In areas that do have a choice they have smelly bin trucks from different companies passing their house several times a week.

Telecoms is a strategic area for the country should not be in the hands of multinational.

Let Irish people decide their lives instead of being whores to globalisation and capitalism.

We need to invest in ourselves and end the mantra of Foreign Direct Investment

I long to see more "Made in Ireland"

hfallada

MonkeyDoo wrote: »

Sweeping Statement regarding the bins, pardon the pun. I live in Dublin

I am paying for more for bins, have no choice of bin provider, hence no competition. When the privatized bins companies leave a mess all over the street,or refuse to collect abandoned bags,have to call the council to clean it up anyway. In areas that do have a choice they have smelly bin trucks from different companies passing their house several times a week.

Telecoms is a strategic area for the country should not be in the hands of multinational.

Let Irish people decide their lives instead of being whores to globalisation and capitalism.

We need to invest in ourselves and end the mantra of Foreign Direct Investment

I long to see more "Made in Ireland"

Well there is 3.5Billion pension deficit in semi state company that the Irish citizens in some form are going to have to pay for either through taxes or higher prices. Semi-state companies are highly inefficient and cave into most union demands.

I think a majority of Irish like the fact that they can call their phone company and a phone line installed in 3 days. But when there was just Eircom you were lucky to get it in 3 months.

FDI provides extremely well paid jobs( nearly 250k directly and indirectly). We dont want irish making cheap clothing for export. All cheap manufacturing is in Asia and Mexico. This is 2013 we need high value items like pharmaceuticals, chemicals and software.

Jake93

We need a new Connolly.

opiniated

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What is your opinion of Mrs Ts championing of the deregulation of the banks?

Maura74

opiniated wrote: »

What is your opinion of Mrs Ts championing of the deregulation of the banks?

Amazing both Thatcher and Regan died of Alzheimers, Thatcher was looked after by the Barclays brothers at the Ritz. Regan got the same luxury treatment at the end of his life.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01px74c/Panorama_The_Tax_Haven_Twins/

ardmacha

Amazing both Thatcher and Regan died of Alzheimers, Thatcher was looked after by the Barclays brothers at the Ritz. Regan got the same luxury treatment at the end of his life.

That's their problem. Alzheimers is related to being in an excessively clean environment, if they lived in my house they would have been fine.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/good-hygiene-may-be-to-blame-for-soaring-alzheimers-29553130.html

feargale

There is no perfect society or political system, but the nearest to it is what existed in the Nordic countries for most of the 20th century. Your beer cost the earth, but the draconian tax on it ensured that you didn't lie on a trolley in a hospital. I despair that it might ever happen here. What with Fianna Fail's Bertie-style socialism, Fine Gael's inherent conservatism, and Labour's inability to succeed politically and suspect commitment to the cause. But, most inimical of all to that dream is the Irish cute hoor character. Lots of nationalism, sweet f---all patriotism.
Thatcher? Ah yes, and light regulation, as Seanie Fitzpatrick might say.

sarumite

feargale wrote: »

There is no perfect society or political system, but the nearest to it is what existed in the Nordic countries for most of the 20th century.

I lived in Sweden long enough to know that the nordic coutries are about as far from perfection as Ireland. I really cannot fathom where this myth comes from.

opiniated

ardmacha wrote: »

That's their problem. Alzheimers is related to being in an excessively clean environment, if they lived in my house they would have been fine.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/health/good-hygiene-may-be-to-blame-for-soaring-alzheimers-29553130.html

Any chance of a reply re: your opinion on Mrs Ts championing of the deregulation of the banks?

If I'm not much mistaken, Regan was of the same mindset!

Tabnabs

sarumite wrote: »

I lived in Sweden long enough to know that the nordic coutries are about as far from perfection as Ireland. I really cannot fathom where this myth comes from.

A case in point; I have a friend in Norway who needed an operation on both of his legs due to a rare disorder. There is a six month recovery time after each procedure, so he will be out of work for 12 months total. He will receive 100% of his salary from the Norwegian state. He's Swedish coincidently and in Sweden the entitlement wouldn't have been anywhere near this level. He freely admits that without this "aid" he would have had to sell his house (unable to repay mortgage) and have had his whole life turned upside down.

Not a perfect country by any means, but a far more progressive society than Ireland (or most other countries).

(And one of the few times a Swede has admitted that life is better in Norway )

sarumite

Tabnabs wrote: »

Not a perfect country by any means, but a far more progressive society than Ireland (or most other countries).

Its also one of the richest countries in the world as a result of a small population and large oil supply, hardly a typical example. When you are swimming in money, you have that kind of luxury.

feargale

sarumite wrote: »

Its also one of the richest countries in the world as a result of a small population and large oil supply, hardly a typical example. When you are swimming in money, you have that kind of luxury.

Not a word about Finland or Denmark. Iceland, incidentally, was a fine country until it got involved in Thatcherite economics, a fine country despite its isolation, sparse population and limited resources.

sarumite

feargale wrote: »

Not a word about Finland or Denmark. Iceland, incidentally, was a fine country until it got involved in Thatcherite economics, a fine country despite its isolation, sparse population and limited resources.

In the UN's 2013 report, Ireland had a higher human development index than all of the above.