Are Striking and kicking based Arts a priority for Defence Force Members?

jake 74

In the Irish army is there mandatory instruction in self-defence/unarmed combat/martial arts, etc in any of the units?

simply put no! there is no mandatory instruction in any units in self-defence/unarmed combat/martial arts in the irish army
uac is taught to new recruits at a basic leval(basic striking, break-falls, throwing, joint locks etc) when they join a unit it is very rarely practiced
any martial art being practiced in the army at the moment is down to individual or small groups of personell simply training in the art they love doing.
is there a need for martial arts instruction in the army? speaking as a serving soldier imo no
we have our own "rules of engaement" a document which outlines how we should act if threatend while on duty:)

Ug Lee

jake 74 wrote: »

there is no mandatory instruction in any units in self-defence/unarmed combat/martial arts in the irish army

uac is taught to new recruits at a basic leval(basic striking, break-falls, throwing, joint locks etc)

Thanks Jake. I don't know if I read the above wrong but they looked like opposing statements.

Anyway my understanding from what I think you said is that uac (unarmed combat) "is" mandatory training for new recruits at a basic level.

How long is this training? 1 day, 1 hour per day for a week, etc?

jake 74

Anyway my understanding from what I think you said is that uac (unarmed combat) "is" mandatory training for new recruits at a basic level.

sorry for the misunderstanding but you got the bones of it. new recruits have to under go a set down period of uac training it's only a couple of hours but i will check tomorrow to find out exactly how long and get back to you
hope this helps:)

arybvtcw0eolkf

jake 74 wrote: »

i will check tomorrow to find out exactly how long and get back to you
hope this helps:)

M.O.I. 101!.

Never give the student the wrong answer eh!.

Foxhound38

I'm not sure MA is the most important thing for rank-and-file soldiers to be concentrating on. By the time MA would become relevent it would generally be too late. I will agree that some form of advanced hand-to-hand technique would be necessary for SF soldiers, but to advocate teaching anything more than the basics and weapon retention to rank-and-file soldiers is straying into the "too many video-games" territory.

In my opinion, if they are to learn anything it should be Krav Maga. Its probably the most practical one from a military point of view (as limited as that is), fairly good excercise and seems to be working well for the IDF. I went on a KM course a while back and there were a fair few DF and Garda lads there, I don;t see why it couldn't be standardized into the course. My immediate thoughts at the time were that it should be thought to the Gardai on a national basis as they would be far more likely than the DF to be in a situation whereby they would have to use it.

TrollHammaren

Foxhound38 wrote: »

My immediate thoughts at the time were that it should be thought to the Gardai on a national basis as they would be far more likely than the DF to be in a situation whereby they would have to use it.

As much as I do agree with you that Krav Maga is a pretty effective martial art, and the Gardaí have a considerably greater need to learn hand-to-hand combat, I'm not entirely sure Krav Maga would be the most appropriate self-defence system to teach Gardaí.

The efficacy of martial arts is dependent on how quickly and correctly you can utilise it should the situation necessitate it, but given Krav Maga's brutal nature, you could end up hitting a walnut with a sledgehammer. Irish law only allows for use of force proportionate to the threat level, and most of Krav Maga's moves involve smashing people up pretty badly.

I imagine martial arts such as modern Jiu Jitsu (not BJJ) might be a little more useful for Gardaí as they could, with enough training, learn to adjust their level of force to deal with a specific threat. Like, smashing someone's face is a perfectly acceptable response to an attempted knife attack, but a bit overkill if a person just grabs your shirt :-P

I really hope I'm not derailing this thread!

arybvtcw0eolkf

TrollHammaren wrote: »

I really hope I'm not derailing this thread!

Work away, discussion's can change & grow in different directions whilst still broadly remaining in topic.

Boston

TrollHammaren wrote: »

As much as I do agree with you that Krav Maga is a pretty effective martial art, and the Gardaí have a considerably greater need to learn hand-to-hand combat, I'm not entirely sure Krav Maga would be the most appropriate self-defence system to teach Gardaí.

The efficacy of martial arts is dependent on how quickly and correctly you can utilise it should the situation necessitate it, but given Krav Maga's brutal nature, you could end up hitting a walnut with a sledgehammer. Irish law only allows for use of force proportionate to the threat level, and most of Krav Maga's moves involve smashing people up pretty badly.

I imagine martial arts such as modern Jiu Jitsu (not BJJ) might be a little more useful for Gardaí as they could, with enough training, learn to adjust their level of force to deal with a specific threat. Like, smashing someone's face is a perfectly acceptable response to an attempted knife attack, but a bit overkill if a person just grabs your shirt :-P

I really hope I'm not derailing this thread!

As I understand it, Krav Maga is not a self defence martial art. Your defence is a massively disproportionate offensive action. Someone pushes you, you break their nose, someone hits you, you rip off their ear. Due to our legal system, it's completely unsuitable for use by anyone for self defence. There is no scaled response, it's simply kill the opponent.

Seamus Brief Hailstorm wrote: »

Work away, discussion's can change & grow in different directions whilst still broadly remaining in topic.

Who would win, Gi Joe or Batman.

pablohoney87

Boston wrote: »

Who would win, Gi Joe or Batman.

Well a lotta KM would be useless on GI Joe due to his lack of genitalia and KM's numerous techniques for kicking somone in the balls.

tallaght01

Boston wrote: »

As I understand it, Krav Maga is not a self defence martial art. Your defence is a massively disproportionate offensive action. Someone pushes you, you break their nose, someone hits you, you rip off their ear. .

I don't really want to get involved in this, but that's simply an untrue stereotype (not saying there aren't people teaching this, but they'd be cowboys). My old kenpo instructor encouraged way more disproportionate responses than we ever practice in KM.

tallaght01

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't really want to get involved in this, but that's simply an untrue stereotype (not saying there aren't people teaching this, but they'd be cowboys). My old kenpo instructor encouraged way more disproportionate responses than we ever practice in KM.

The weekend course I did in Krav Maga gave me the impression it was more defensive than offensive, certainly I thought it not the sort of MA that your local yob numpties would be into. As I said in a previous post here, I was the only one who kicked out instinctively when being attacked. The seasoned KM chaps there were very good at the KM but very non OTT agressive.

jake 74

How long is this training? 1 day, 1 hour per day for a week, etc?

this training lasts for 3 days!:)

M.O.I. 101!.

Never give the student the wrong answer eh!.

lol! always be covered

BigDuffman

Seamus Brief Hailstorm wrote: »

M.O.I. 101!.

Never give the student the wrong answer eh!.

Ha ha "I'll get back to you on that one...next"

Boston wrote: »

Question, have you ever used any of it in real deployments or simulated deployments.

On a deployment (simulated or otherwise). The majority of any argie bargie will be simply one person jumping / dragging on another in a grapple. When your in a situation against an opponent that has got the jump on you something has gone very wrong....As previous posters have mentioned a soldier is never alone. If your a soldier you've got 8 other buddies with rifles and bayonets it is unlikely that 8 other bad guys have jumped simultaneously.

This section in the event that they have somehow been overwhelmed by 9 tacklers will then be similarly supported by two other sections also equipped with guns. Multiply this two a company level and so on and so forth.

The situations that usually warrant a physical exchange are the likes of moving / removing people or a "protest" where most of the DF members involved will have access to riot gear.
Or a control and restraint type situation during a search etc which is achieved through: Strength of numbers, intimidation, aggressive shouting, pushing and pointing big scary guns and at a stretch a swift kick in the b@llox or slap.

Any tales of fisty cuffs that I have ever heard has been solved by nothing more than a swift kick or push.

With regard to offensive combat against "bad guys" if there is an instance where the only option (for whatever reason) is to get up close and personal that foe will more than likely receive a grenade in the face and then be on the receiving end of bayonets and rifle butts. The swift and brutal nature of such an engagement will not allow for high kicking TKD moves.

Defensively that would involve someone storming a position again would not warrant fancy moves (ever tried a round house in firing trench?? All you can do in that situation is wrestle around and try not get stabbed).

We could go down the route of "but what about special forces..":rolleyes: that is a different kettle of fish for a different situation.

Point is that in an ideal world, yeah sure having an extensive MA knowledge based on years of training would be great if a soldier would find himself in that one in a million situation against a similarly unarmed opponent.

But the ROI of implementing this does not justify the use training time and resources that is better spent on practical training.

Dangerous One

DaBrow wrote: »

However, I do feel that our Asian Counterparts in Korea/Japan/China easily outclass us on the topic of unarmed combat....

While this may well be the case, do remember that there are few hand to hand situations in modern combat, the majority of engagements take place beyond the range of any martial art.

Martial Arts are thought with quite a high instructor/student ratio, which has the disadvantage of making it expensive or time intensive to teach. Better spend your time training in something which you will definitely use.

Another thing to remember is that different organisations look at the same situation & come up with different conclusions, for example the US Army is no longer even teaching Recruits bayonet drills! In contrast the British Army are using their bayonets a bit in Afghanistan.

On a side note, the Defence Forces Basic Unarmed Combat course is three weeks long & covers strikes, kicks, blocks, breakfalls, etc.

DaBrow

Dangerous One wrote: »

While this may well be the case, do remember that there are few hand to hand situations in modern combat, the majority of engagements take place beyond the range of any martial art.

Martial Arts are thought with quite a high instructor/student ratio, which has the disadvantage of making it expensive or time intensive to teach. Better spend your time training in something which you will definitely use.

Another thing to remember is that different organisations look at the same situation & come up with different conclusions, for example the US Army is no longer even teaching Recruits bayonet drills! In contrast the British Army are using their bayonets a bit in Afghanistan.

On a side note, the Defence Forces Basic Unarmed Combat course is three weeks long & covers strikes, kicks, blocks, breakfalls, etc.

I see your points... But maybe we should examine how other fighting forces in the world use Martial Arts as part of their training?

I know of the Brits (I can't say I like their forces) teaching Martial Arts to Personell stationed in Cyprus and even Afghanistan... It is relevant but a constructive use of passing time which is also enjoyable.

The fact though that it appears the Gards have little Martial Arts or Self-defence taught to them is crazy.

Maguined

I think most people would agree that it would be good for guards to learn more defence type training as in the past most people seemed intimidated by the uniform alone but these days there are plenty of young drunk stupid people willing to fight with a guard.

However the guards would probably want to learn a little boxing to defend themselves from the average attack and then the majority of their time learning some judo or wrestling, something to grapple their opponent to the ground and restraining them till they can be handcuffed while causing as little damage as possible.

Teaching the guards some spinning back kicks will only leave them open to being sued for using excessive force and brutality charges.

yomchi

Maguined wrote: »

I think most people would agree that it would be good for guards to learn more defence type training as in the past most people seemed intimidated by the uniform alone but these days there are plenty of young drunk stupid people willing to fight with a guard.

However the guards would probably want to learn a little boxing to defend themselves from the average attack and then the majority of their time learning some judo or wrestling, something to grapple their opponent to the ground and restraining them till they can be handcuffed while causing as little damage as possible.

Teaching the guards some spinning back kicks will only leave them open to being sued for using excessive force and brutality charges.

Have you seen how Judoka and wrestlers take their opponents to the ground?
And you worry about excessive force being used?

While boxing would teach a Garda to strike well, whcih would leave them open to all sorts of claims, I would say they'd be safer behind pepper spray and their telescopic batons and relying on the 15 second reply from colleagues over the radio in emergencies.

cletus

in fairness, the Gardai probably dont step into one on one confrontations, i would imagine its two or more gardai controlling one assailant.

Yomchi's point about the use of pepper spray and ASPs is right on the money

Maguined

There are plenty of more subtle judo and wrestling trips to take people to the ground, its not all big dramatic throws or slams. Have you never seen COPs on tv ? it has been running for years and nearly every single time I have seen the american police restrain someone it has been with a wrestling based take down.

The boxing I mentioned was for defence, sooner or later someone is going to be stupid and throw a punch at their face, I think boxing is the best way to learn how to correctly defend and protect yourself from such a punch.

Pepper spray and batons are good tools and effective but are not always deemed as suitable force, again american police who have batons, pepper spray and also guns frequently try to restrain their opponents first and only resort to the pepper spray or baton or ultimately their gun if the opponent continues to violently resist and pose a threat to the police.

Guards always try and talk situations down first and only resort to physical action when someone else has already instigated violence, as such when talking to someone and try convince them to calm down etc they are not going to do so with their pepper spray and batons in their hand, chances are they will try and talk some drunken fool to calm down and then the drunken fool reacts stupidly and attacks the guards which they will have to initially defend and then be able to deploy their pepper spray or baton.

As the guards are not the army and are likely to be forced into situations of unarmed combat I do think some specific training in this would benefit them as they are not always going to have their pepper spray ready or its use deemed suitable.

yomchi

Guards always try and talk situations down first and only resort to physical action when someone else has already instigated violence

Dyr

yomchi wrote: »

The guy was charing in at another cop when robocop stuck the timber on him..that's instigation in my book.

Me, defending the garda's oh the irony :pac:

Dave Joyce

Me, defending the garda's oh the irony

THAT'S IT O'Ceallaigh, I'm not talking to you again:)

yomchi

Bambi wrote: »

The guy was charing in at another cop when robocop stuck the timber on him..that's instigation in my book.

Me, defending the garda's oh the irony :pac:

That copper was charged with assault.

But anyway back OT

Boston

yomchi wrote: »

That copper was charged with assault.

But anyway back OT

Just before we get back on topic. He found innocent and cleared of those charges.

spidey7

many claim to 'train the ranger wing'.......

to my knowledge i dont believe they let ANY civvies (non military) in to train them at all!

i do think they (the wing) should have advanced hand to hand combat and i think you will be surprised to find that they DO!

i recently trained with thier (retired) H2H combat instructor and because of the fact that they are the Anti-terrorist unit for the country you will find that the are proficient in:

close quarter combat
confined space combat
fighting while holding weapons
multi attacker defence
weapon retention
crowd penetration
and more......

sure because of the use of thier Primary Weapon they may not 'always' need CQC engagement but purely due to the nature of the job they MUST train in all areas, out of the comfort zone and in a worst case scenario which a lot of the time that would involve to inabiity to use or the inaccessability of the primary or secondary weapon.

DaBrow

spidey7 wrote: »

many claim to 'train the ranger wing'.......

to my knowledge i dont believe they let ANY civvies (non military) in to train them at all!

i do think they (the wing) should have advanced hand to hand combat and i think you will be surprised to find that they DO!

i recently trained with thier (retired) H2H combat instructor and because of the fact that they are the Anti-terrorist unit for the country you will find that the are proficient in:

close quarter combat
confined space combat
fighting while holding weapons
multi attacker defence
weapon retention
crowd penetration
and more......

sure because of the use of thier Primary Weapon they may not 'always' need CQC engagement but purely due to the nature of the job they MUST train in all areas, out of the comfort zone and in a worst case scenario which a lot of the time that would involve to inabiity to use or the inaccessability of the primary or secondary weapon.

Thank you for confirming why I think the thread is necessary....

I don't know of any Special Forces Group that doesn't see Martial Arts as unimportant.

Doug Cartel

DaBrow, please read this quote and have a little think about it.

Bertrand Russell wrote:

If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

Foxhound38

The job of the regular soldier in the PDF is very different to the job of a soldier in the ARW, and they require very different skillsets. I would agree that a soldier the ARW needs to know quite a lot about fighting in close quarters and unarmed combat, if only because in instances where that might be necessary (hostage situations in enclosed areas and the like) they would be the first and in many cases (with the exception of the Garda ERU, who train with them) the only one qualified to deal with that situation.

yomchi

Boston wrote: »

Just before we get back on topic. He found innocent and cleared of those charges.

He was still a tosser

BACK ON TOPIC!!

Dangerous One

Foxhound38 wrote: »

The job of the regular soldier in the PDF is very different to the job of a soldier in the ARW, and they require very different skillsets. I would agree that a soldier the ARW needs to know quite a lot about fighting in close quarters and unarmed combat, if only because in instances where that might be necessary (hostage situations in enclosed areas and the like) they would be the first and in many cases (with the exception of the Garda ERU, who train with them) the only one qualified to deal with that situation.

Have to agree, if, as an infantry or mechanised infantry soldier you find yourself without your personal weapon to hand in a live situation, you really are in the poo.
A fist, boot or butt stroke will in most situation allow you to get your personal weapon back in the action.