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Are you all pleased with your solar panels for hot water heating

  • 29-03-2010 6:33pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,473 ✭✭✭


    Just thinking of starting a poll on this. Is everyone here happy or not with their solar panels, performing as expected?

    How do you feel about your new solar panels 39 votes

    Happy
    48% 19 votes
    Disappointed
    51% 20 votes


«13456789

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    I'll sticky this awhile and add

    Please indicate

    cost
    year of installation
    m2 area
    orientation
    flat plate or tubes
    cylinder size
    summer heat dump strategy ( if any )

    Reminder - no trade / company names please

    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,907 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    €6254.72
    05/2006
    6m2
    FP
    SSW
    400 litre
    No heat dump needed.
    Tip: Clean panel glass regularly, it gets dirty and loses efficiency.
    happy


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭daithihalton


    2900 euros
    08/09
    3m2
    vacuum tube
    sse
    300 litre
    small rad in hotpress for heat dump
    happy so far looking forward to a summer with them
    self install.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭746watts


    €800
    2006
    2.1m2
    flat panel
    south
    140litre standard preinsulated twin coil cylinder
    no heat dump, max temperature observed 66C
    self install, gravity system... cylinder is higher than panel, therefore no pump required.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Mothman


    Missed this and missed poll
    I never see stickies :eek:

    c. Ir£3300 (may have been £3500)
    1998
    6m2
    FP
    S
    300 litre
    No heat dump, but excess is used in paddling pool or water slide!
    No less thrilled than I was 12 years ago!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    Poll is closed :)

    2,400 euro.

    2010.

    Between 4 and 5 sq. m.

    45 degree pitch. Due S.

    200l stainless triple coil.

    No dump option.

    Very happy, the company I bought from are very helpful, and provide excellent backup. Controller is a snazzy affair, with options to control a backup immersion element, temp settings and a 3 channel timer, as well as control of pump on the feed side (didn't need this as I have rock steady mains pressure, and converted to a non vented system at the same time). House is 12 years old, and well insulated (timber frame-with a lot of retro-fitting going on-I'm doing a major refurb atm).

    Temp is hitting the high fifties with solar input alone at this time of year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 88 ✭✭duffman21


    Roundy,

    Will you PM me the details of the company you used.

    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 Constanople


    Will you PM me too Roundy with Details of company used


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 confused_help


    Will you pm the company as well please. Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 418 ✭✭newtoboards


    Hey roundy could you also pm me?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭grizzlyadams


    Roundy , could you pm me that company's name too please ? Oil price starting to hurt !!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 mickrick1


    Roundy - I would be much obliged if you would PM me details of the company also please. Cheers Mick.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭Charlie 08


    me too roundy!!:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 ✭✭deepspeed


    Poll is closed :)

    2,400 euro.

    2010.

    Between 4 and 5 sq. m.

    45 degree pitch. Due S.

    200l stainless triple coil.

    No dump option.

    Very happy, the company I bought from are very helpful, and provide excellent backup. Controller is a snazzy affair, with options to control a backup immersion element, temp settings and a 3 channel timer, as well as control of pump on the feed side (didn't need this as I have rock steady mains pressure, and converted to a non vented system at the same time). House is 12 years old, and well insulated (timber frame-with a lot of retro-fitting going on-I'm doing a major refurb atm).

    Temp is hitting the high fifties with solar input alone at this time of year.

    Did you get Flat Panel or Vacuum Tubes???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37 Holla23


    Can you please PM me too.

    Thanks!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭ch750536


    Poll is closed :)

    2,400 euro.

    2010.

    Between 4 and 5 sq. m.

    45 degree pitch. Due S.

    200l stainless triple coil.

    No dump option.

    Very happy, the company I bought from are very helpful, and provide excellent backup. Controller is a snazzy affair, with options to control a backup immersion element, temp settings and a 3 channel timer, as well as control of pump on the feed side (didn't need this as I have rock steady mains pressure, and converted to a non vented system at the same time). House is 12 years old, and well insulated (timber frame-with a lot of retro-fitting going on-I'm doing a major refurb atm).

    Temp is hitting the high fifties with solar input alone at this time of year.

    Can you post the comapny used in the thread for all to see? else PM me please.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭championc


    cost - €5000
    year of installation - 01/2010
    m2 area - 3m2
    orientation - Due South about 25 deg pitch
    flat plate or tubes - tubes (30)
    cylinder size - 180L
    summer heat dump strategy ( if any ) - None

    Delighted with system. With lower volume of water, this allows for higher potential rise in temperature. Remember, you have to raise the WHOLE store of water 1 deg C at a time. I also went for an option for the controller to be able to store my data - useful for spotting any problems in the future in addition to seeing the real benefits of the system.

    Here's my data from a Sunny day 15 June 2010. Temperature rise of Store of 30 deg C
    15062010.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭Deepwell


    €3800 (net of grant)
    Nov 2010
    c.8m2
    South
    Pitch ? (standard tiled roof)
    Tubes (x60)
    300L
    Small radiator in hot press

    Very impressed so far despite the cold winter. Saving amost €1/day on ESB through eliminating the use of electric showers and the immersion. Some savings on Gas heating as well but not sure how much yet (we only need to heat the tank for a couple of hours in the evening now as we have a bigger & better insulated heat store).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭Katz83


    Deepwell wrote: »
    €3800 (net of grant)
    Nov 2010
    c.8m2
    South
    Pitch ? (standard tiled roof)
    Tubes (x60)
    300L
    Small radiator in hot press

    Very impressed so far despite the cold winter. Saving amost €1/day on ESB through eliminating the use of electric showers and the immersion. Some savings on Gas heating as well but not sure how much yet (we only need to heat the tank for a couple of hours in the evening now as we have a bigger & better insulated heat store).

    Hi you mention a radiator in the hot press is this linked to the solar panels and if so is it just the one radiator linked to them and was this more expensive


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭Deepwell


    The radiator is connected to the solar system and only heats when the hot water tank has got has reached its maximum set point (about 80'C I think). It was recommended by the installer and was included in the price.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭championc


    It's basically a heat dump / safety device


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 77 ✭✭gar44


    If I could get the name of that company pm'd to me as well roundy that would be great.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭bigalk


    mee too Roundy. thanks!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 mickrick1


    We have a B&B and require a lot of hot water during Summer months so hopefully solar is a no brainer. To date I am quite impressed with system performance but will know a lot more by Sept/Oct 2011.

    Cost: 6150 nett of grant
    Year of installation: March 2011
    Area: 10 msq
    Orientation: South/South West
    Flat plate inroof (natural slate roof)
    Cylinder size: 500 l
    Summer heat dump strategy: none
    Grant 1500

    We will also have a tax relief next year on capital expenditure so total project nett cost will be about 5000 when this is taken into account.

    Break down of prices:

    Solar panels/Cylinder/Controller/Flexible pipe/Pump basically all solar related equipment 5000 incl VAT

    Plumber labour plus blending valves/copper piping and other peripherals used 1450

    Roofer 700

    Scaffold 500


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭championc


    The real thing with solar is somewhat as to how you heat water when you have NO solar energy but more importantly, as to how you stop this from activating when you do have solar heated water. Your gains will come from the power you don't use so it's very important you have the correct controls in place for this to work effectively.

    Personally, I have a Combi boiler which instantaneously heats water and sends it to the hot taps if there is no hot solar water available. If solar hot water is available, it goes straight to an anti-scald valve and then goes to the hot taps directly. I have the advantage of being able to send warm (but not hot enough) pre-heated water to the combi for heating up to the required temperature.


    C


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    Just a thought on solar.....

    Solar provided hot water. Hot water accounts for 20% of your annual heating bills. Assume worst case that each bill is 300 euro every 2 months so thats

    300 x 6 = 1800

    20% of 1800 = 360

    So if the adverage system seems to be around 3k

    thats a payback time of 8 years.


    that does not include associated costs of maintenance and power used by pumps.

    Granted it meets your green obligations but it does not push the energy rating of your home up much and seems like a long payback for a rethro fit.

    I agree that a condensing boiler costs less and generates more return.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 mickrick1


    Just a thought on solar.....

    Solar provided hot water. Hot water accounts for 20% of your annual heating bills. Assume worst case that each bill is 300 euro every 2 months so thats

    300 x 6 = 1800

    20% of 1800 = 360

    So if the adverage system seems to be around 3k

    thats a payback time of 8 years.


    that does not include associated costs of maintenance and power used by pumps.

    Granted it meets your green obligations but it does not push the energy rating of your home up much and seems like a long payback for a rethro fit.

    I agree that a condensing boiler costs less and generates more return.
    Yes Joey I replaced my standard oil boiler with a condensing boiler last Summer prior to installing solar this Spring.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭macnab


    cost: €6000 ish
    year of installation: 2002
    m2 area: 5m
    orientation: South, 37deg elevation
    flat plate or tubes: Flat Plate
    cylinder size: 300 litre dual coil
    summer heat dump strategy: have lots of baths!
    Max temp observed: 97 deg C

    I had a contractor fit the panel to the roof but i installed the rest.
    The pump costs less than €20 a year on leccie.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭steveq


    Hi,

    I am planning on installing a Solar Panel system now.

    Could you PM me the details of suppliers that you were happy with?

    Thanks in advance.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭homer911


    steveq wrote: »
    Hi,

    I am planning on installing a Solar Panel system now.

    Could you PM me the details of suppliers that you were happy with?

    Thanks in advance.

    Best to state where you are located..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭homer911


    macnab wrote: »
    cost: €6000 ish
    year of installation: 2002
    m2 area: 5m
    orientation: South, 37deg elevation
    flat plate or tubes: Flat Plate
    cylinder size: 300 litre dual coil
    summer heat dump strategy: have lots of baths!
    Max temp observed: 97 deg C

    I had a contractor fit the panel to the roof but i installed the rest.
    The pump costs less than €20 a year on leccie.

    I hope they fitted an anti-scald device (and that you live in a soft water area) - what happens when you go on holidays?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭steveq


    Hi,

    I should have said that I am in Dublin 14.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭TomTom


    I am doing a new build in the Offaly area, could someone PM me a recommended supplier. I went to the self build show in Galway two weeks ago and outside the event there was two different solar displays. I visited both there was a 10degree difference between them so it's safe to say there are big differences between each technology and supplier. Any advice appreciated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 rockie2010


    championc wrote: »
    cost - €5000
    year of installation - 01/2010
    m2 area - 3m2
    orientation - Due South about 25 deg pitch
    flat plate or tubes - tubes (30)
    cylinder size - 180L
    summer heat dump strategy ( if any ) - None

    Delighted with system. With lower volume of water, this allows for higher potential rise in temperature. Remember, you have to raise the WHOLE store of water 1 deg C at a time. I also went for an option for the controller to be able to store my data - useful for spotting any problems in the future in addition to seeing the real benefits of the system.

    Here's my data from a Sunny day 15 June 2010. Temperature rise of Store of 30 deg C
    15062010.jpg
    Hi ChampionC
    Any chance you could show 12 months of data?
    thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭championc


    Each month would be a completely separate screenprint so that would be 12 for a year. Maybe I'll try and do a selection of months like Apr thru Sep or is there any months in particular that you are interested in ?


    C


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭championc


    How's this for you - remember, I do not use anything (Immersion or Central Heating) to hop up this water so every degree and litre is solar heated. The temperatures indicated are those from the Top of the Storage Tank (180L)

    Apr-Jul.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 rockie2010


    championc wrote: »
    How's this for you - remember, I do not use anything (Immersion or Central Heating) to hop up this water so every degree and litre is solar heated. The temperatures indicated are those from the Top of the Storage Tank (180L)

    Apr-Jul.jpg

    Heh ChampionC
    thanks a million- I like the feedback its giving you. I had a system installed last week and its only getting up to 55C at the collector (today which was sunny) and 53C about half way up the tank. (30tubes facing south 300L tank) I'm not convinced the system is working correctly so wondered what variation to expect. Your results are telling me that it might just be normal variation but likely to be either a rubbish system or its incorrectly installed.. I'll see how it behaves over a week or so. Any chance you could post your June 2011 data for Roof, Bottom and Top tank?
    Rockie2010


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭championc


    Here's my data from yesterday so that you have something to go on with. My system is a Kingspan Thermomax (I believe I can name a brand but not the installer) 30 tube system with a 180L store. The equivalent for a 300L store to gain the same return would be 50 tubes. My objective was to maximize heat gain during Spring and Autumn. With a totally sunny day in June last year, I got a rise of 30 deg C for the 180L. With 30 tubes and a 300L store I would expect the best you would get would be about 15 deg C.

    Basically, the more water you have stored, the more difficult it is to raise the temp by 1 deg C at a time.

    If you examine my data from yesterday, you'll notice that I had a rise yesterday of about 10 deg C so if you had the same sort of conditions as I had, you could then expect about a 5 - 6 deg C increase but that's about it.

    The advantage of having data is that you can see the system in motion. The roof temp increases (Green) and when about 8 or so deg above the bottom of store temp (Blue), then the pump kicks in and starts transferring heat into the bottom until it gets to the same temp as the top of the store (Red) and then the top and bottom inch up a degree at a time (when the sun is out - you can see when clouds must have come across) until the sun finally falls away just after 18:30. Another bit that is useful is to see the natural loss from the store. I seem to lose about 1 deg C every 2 - 3 hours

    20110530.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 Mermaid01


    Poll is closed :)

    2,400 euro.

    2010.

    Between 4 and 5 sq. m.

    45 degree pitch. Due S.

    200l stainless triple coil.

    No dump option.

    Very happy, the company I bought from are very helpful, and provide excellent backup. Controller is a snazzy affair, with options to control a backup immersion element, temp settings and a 3 channel timer, as well as control of pump on the feed side (didn't need this as I have rock steady mains pressure, and converted to a non vented system at the same time). House is 12 years old, and well insulated (timber frame-with a lot of retro-fitting going on-I'm doing a major refurb atm).

    Temp is hitting the high fifties with solar input alone at this time of year.


    Hi Roundy,

    Grateful if you could PM the comapny details to me also.

    Thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭dathi


    as champ says 30 tubes into 300 ltr tank is not enough i have 30 tubes (cheap and cheerful chinese) into 200ltr tank it had the whole tank up to 64* yesterday which is the temp i have the heat dump set at as the water is very limey here in kk


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 rockie2010


    championc wrote: »
    Here's my data from yesterday so that you have something to go on with. My system is a Kingspan Thermomax (I believe I can name a brand but not the installer) 30 tube system with a 180L store. The equivalent for a 300L store to gain the same return would be 50 tubes. My objective was to maximize heat gain during Spring and Autumn. With a totally sunny day in June last year, I got a rise of 30 deg C for the 180L. With 30 tubes and a 300L store I would expect the best you would get would be about 15 deg C.

    Basically, the more water you have stored, the more difficult it is to raise the temp by 1 deg C at a time.

    If you examine my data from yesterday, you'll notice that I had a rise yesterday of about 10 deg C so if you had the same sort of conditions as I had, you could then expect about a 5 - 6 deg C increase but that's about it.

    The advantage of having data is that you can see the system in motion. The roof temp increases (Green) and when about 8 or so deg above the bottom of store temp (Blue), then the pump kicks in and starts transferring heat into the bottom until it gets to the same temp as the top of the store (Red) and then the top and bottom inch up a degree at a time (when the sun is out - you can see when clouds must have come across) until the sun finally falls away just after 18:30. Another bit that is useful is to see the natural loss from the store. I seem to lose about 1 deg C every 2 - 3 hours

    20110530.jpg

    That is helpful C. I should be thinking of temp gains not absolute temp. I think it did climb around 7 degrees yesterday. I would have gone for that monitoring system if it were offered to me at the time. I don't have a Steca pump station/controller. so not sure it can be retrofitted. I've contacted them.
    R.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,274 ✭✭✭championc


    My controller is a Kingspan badged Steca TR0603mc. I think all controllers are doing the same thing so shouldn't be a problem. Whatever brand you got, there's probably a version exactly the same as what you have that just has a data logger attached so maybe your installer could simply swap it over (for about 100 extra) and use your current one on his next job. Mind you, it wasn't offerred to me either so I had to somewhat fight for it.

    However, maybe you don't really need it since by the sounds of things, your expectations for the system were possibly higher than the actual reality. You will have to hope for a good run of weather to get the temp up to the levels you're hoping for.

    The one setting which everyone should be vary of the most on their system is the shutoff of the pump depending on the roof temp relative to the bottom of store temp. You cannot have the pump running if the roof temp is the same as the bottom temp since it could then start cooling the store. I think cutoff is 2 deg C on the roof higher than the bottom of the store.


    C


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 317 ✭✭RTT


    Hi championc. Is there any chance you could pm the installers of your Kingspan thermomax system please as I'm hoping to get that too?

    Thanks

    championc wrote: »
    My controller is a Kingspan badged Steca TR0603mc. I think all controllers are doing the same thing so shouldn't be a problem. Whatever brand you got, there's probably a version exactly the same as what you have that just has a data logger attached so maybe your installer could simply swap it over (for about 100 extra) and use your current one on his next job. Mind you, it wasn't offerred to me either so I had to somewhat fight for it.

    However, maybe you don't really need it since by the sounds of things, your expectations for the system were possibly higher than the actual reality. You will have to hope for a good run of weather to get the temp up to the levels you're hoping for.

    The one setting which everyone should be vary of the most on their system is the shutoff of the pump depending on the roof temp relative to the bottom of store temp. You cannot have the pump running if the roof temp is the same as the bottom temp since it could then start cooling the store. I think cutoff is 2 deg C on the roof higher than the bottom of the store.


    C


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39 badger81


    me too roundy or anyone else
    thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    My apologies to those who PMed me, and who I'm only getting round to now. (edit to add: a ball of my PMs were marked read at some stage, presumably by me, so some of your queries are over a year old-if you did get in touch apologies again, and if you still need info, drop me a line and I'll try not to be *quite* as slow in coming back to you:))

    My supplier, (it was a self install), has ceased doing domestic work, and are now concentrating on the commercial side of things. As I assume they may still supply the gear, I can't name them here, but I'll PM those who contacted me in the hope that they'll get the same great service I did.

    I had a couple of issues down the line, unrelated to the install, or the quality of the equipment supplied, and they could not have been more helpful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    Just a thought on solar.....

    Solar provided hot water. Hot water accounts for 20% of your annual heating bills. Assume worst case that each bill is 300 euro every 2 months so thats

    300 x 6 = 1800

    20% of 1800 = 360

    So if the adverage system seems to be around 3k

    thats a payback time of 8 years.


    that does not include associated costs of maintenance and power used by pumps.

    Granted it meets your green obligations but it does not push the energy rating of your home up much and seems like a long payback for a rethro fit.

    I agree that a condensing boiler costs less and generates more return.

    Hello, I don't have solar panels installed in my house yet, but i used to work installing them for a period of about 2 years. Just one thing that should be mentioned when you are considering the payback period for the cost of the install...

    If you are installing a new stainless steel cylinder for your old copper one it should last a lifetime and you should never have to replace it again, where as you will probably at some stage need to replace your copper cylinder.

    I have worked out the electricity cost for the pump unit if its a good economy one it will cost about 15 euros to run for a year.

    One more thing is that while solar panels do primarily heat hot water, because when your heating comes on it has to pass through your domestic cylinder (through another coil) you will notice the heating doesn't take as long to heat up thus saving you a bit more on heating costs.

    One more point is that even if it does take 8 years to pay for the system, at least you know after that it will be saving you money for nothing. and the way oil prices are going the cost benefit in the future will most probably be far better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 317 ✭✭RTT


    I'm just at the final stages of a putting in a new heating system in my house. Switched from oil to gas, removed gun barrel etc. I planned to get the solar in at the same time but unfortunately my budget won't allow it. I will be putting in a 250L dual coil cylinder and the plumber will run the provision for the solar. Is it ok to use copper with compression fittings or should he be using the stainless steel flexible piping which is more expensive?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    RTT wrote: »
    I'm just at the final stages of a putting in a new heating system in my house. Switched from oil to gas, removed gun barrel etc. I planned to get the solar in at the same time but unfortunately my budget won't allow it. I will be putting in a 250L dual coil cylinder and the plumber will run the provision for the solar. Is it ok to use copper with compression fittings or should he be using the stainless steel flexible piping which is more expensive?

    Copper pipes should be fine, although the stainless steel pipe tends to be insulated a lot better as there will be no patching around fittings, but this will be negligible if the copper pipes and fittings have been insulated well.

    The only thing is with every compression fitting you are increasing the chance of a leak on the system. Might be an idea making sure that any fittings in the pipework will be accessible.

    If it was me doing it i would probably try pay a bit extra and put in the Stainless steel piping.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 106 ✭✭BrenCooney


    cost, 2400
    year of installation, May 2011
    m2 area, 6
    orientation, south 37 degree angle
    flat plate or tubes, flat plate
    cylinder size, 300l
    summer heat dump strategy ( if any ), no but covered panels while on holidays


    self installed. Put in the 300l tank last year as the copper tank developed a leak and thus i got the go ahead from "the boss" to put in action what i had been planning for about a year previous. so i replumbed the house (S??t builder), put in a new condensing boiler, controller and trv's on the rads. only got around to putting in the panels this May as i was getting the roof insulated in march and april (dormer, completely stripped, vapour block and completely sealed to wall plate, rafters built up to 300mm, insulated with glass fibre, etc U value calculated to 0.12). after the roof was being re tiled i went up and installed the panels with the help of the family pullng on ropes etc.

    very happy with it! Water heating costs have plumeted.


    BrenC


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    Does the orientation make a huge difference? My roof faces southeast, rather than due south.

    Do these systems just heat washing water, or do they heat radiators as well?

    What's the ideal size for a standard three-bed semi?


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