29 property suicides leave State unmoved

Amhran Nua

More grim fallout from the property bubble collapse, taking a toll in human lives this time...

Twenty-nine deaths by suicide can be directly linked to the turmoil in the construction and property sector but dozens more deaths among small investors, homeowners and construction industry workers linked to financial despair have gone unreported.

David Mellon, of the Irish Property Council believes the human misery inflicted by the collapse in the property and construction industry is incalculable and the Government is doing nothing to protect the sanctity of the family home.

He predicted that by the time the economy recovers, hundreds will have taken their own lives because they have been plunged into a financial abyss from which they can see no way out.

"We are talking about people who invested in property, people who earned their livelihood from it in many forms; builders, plasterers, plumbers, developers and large and small investors.

"They are now facing financial disaster, bankruptcy and destitution.there are teachers, gardai, lawyers all caught in the crossfire. They are in a suffocating despair."

He says that the seven-person board of the Irish Property Council had personal knowledge and the names of 29 suicide victims that can be directly attributed to turmoil in the property and construction sector.

"I was talking to one family who lost a husband and a brother and they have been simply torn apart. It's hard for people to talk about, to go public about what has happened. They want to protect their children and some are simply too shocked. They haven't come to terms with it."

He has personal experience of the human cost of the disintegration of the construction industry. He lost a friend to suicide a year ago while another had to be talked out of taking his own life.

"There are other cases too. I was having a pint with a friend of mine and he got a text from an employee. My friend was in shock and he showed me the message. It read: 'I cannot come into work tonight. My brother killed himself today. He had no work for his trucks.' This man wasn't an investor. He wasn't a speculator. He wasn't anything other than a man trying to make a living," said Mr Mellon.

Property developer and suicide campaigner Noel Smyth has revealed that a 24-hour helpline set up by suicide charities three months ago is now receiving between 2,500 and 3,000 calls a month -- many of them from people being ruthlessly pursued for money.

"They would be classified as high-risk calls, in other words someone who already has a suicide ideation or they may have actually planned a suicide," Mr Smyth told the Sunday Independent.

"Definitely the age profile of people with suicidal thoughts is changing and that is a reflection of financial worries. Many are in difficulties with property, with bank loans, with the Revenue."

Meanwhile, a financial tsunami is heading toward thousands of first-time buyers and investors who took out "interest-only" loans at the height of the property boom.

Thousands of these loans will now revert to capital repayment loans and are on properties already deep in negative equity.

Around 14 per cent of the 158,098 mortgages approved in 2007 were for interest-only products. Many lenders offered "interest-only" holidays of two or three years.

Similarly 15 per cent of the 110,300 loans approved in 2008 were also interest only.

It means tens of thousands of people, particularly first-time buyers, will have severe difficulties meeting repayments when the interest-only period comes to an end before the end of the year.

Respond, the housing agency, told the Sunday Independent they have received calls from many distressed homeowners whose mental health is being affected.

Aoife Walsh of Respond said: "There is a crisis out there which is taking a human toll. The Irish Banking Federation have renegotiated the mortgages of 30,000 householders. We are very fearful for a lot of people out there.

"I have been receiving from [calls] people in difficulty who are at the end of their tether fearing their home will be repossessed. They are displaying worrying depressive tendencies. Their mental health is being put under pressure and there are immense pressures on families.

"It is having an impact on marriages which is not being taken into account. The social implications are enormous. The screw is being turned on marriages and the family unit and that is going to have far reaching consequences for Irish society for years to come," Ms Walsh said.

Developer Noel Smyth said he has been shocked at the huge number of calls received by a free 24-hour helpline (1800 247100) set up by his organisation Turning the Tide of Suicide in conjunction with the suicide charity Console.

I'm not a professional counsellor by an means, but I'd say to people in this much trouble - you aren't alone, you have the sympathies of the overwhelming majority of people, and it will get better as time goes on. Contact that number or the Samaritans, 1850 60 90 90, theres nothing that can't be dealt with at the end of the day.

ei.sdraob

I find it utterly disgusting that some people (as per previous frontline) are using these suicides as a way to lobby the government for a "bailout"

another way of saying "give us money for our mistakes or there will be more deaths"

sickening :mad:

stepbar

There are genuine cases but you can put a lot of it down to greed and stupid financial mistakes. The Irish property council are a crowd of pests. I had to laugh at the pair of goms on the frontline last week. They were very coy about what they 'actually' wanted to happen.

fontanalis

stepbar wrote: »

There are genuine cases but you can put a lot of it down to greed and stupid financial mistakes. The Irish property council are a crowd of pests. I had to laugh at the pair of goms on the frontline last week. They were very coy about what they 'actually' wanted to happen.

What are the proposals to help people in negative equity? Most of the people who bought to make quick money seem to want to resume the game of pass the parcel with the box of ****.

Amhran Nua

fontanalis wrote: »

What are the proposals to help people in negative equity? Most of the people who bought to make quick money seem to want to resume the game of pass the parcel with the box of ****.

A good start might be to allow people to sell their houses and carry over the difference to a new mortgage, returning a little mobility to people who might for example have kids on the way but are stuck in a shoebox.

godtabh

Amhran Nua wrote: »

A good start might be to allow people to sell their houses and carry over the difference to a new mortgage, returning a little mobility to people who might for example have kids on the way but are stuck in a shoebox.

So a 40 year mortgage turns into a 60 year one?

Firetrap

When I see this being printed in the rag that is the Sindo, first thing I think of is "what's the agenda?"

billybigunz

Is it any different than when people make the wrong decisions in life with their work, relationships.

Amhran Nua

godtabh wrote: »

So a 40 year mortgage turns into a 60 year one?

Well no, lets say they took out a €350,000 mortgage on a one bed apartment. They have €50,000 paid off, and can sell it for €150,000. That means they would owe the bank €150,000 (I'm ignoring interest for the sake of simplicity). They could probably get a decent two bed or even a three bed house a bit further out for €200,000 these days, so they would then owe the bank €350,000 again but have an actual home they can live in for a few decades if they need to. Unsuitable living conditions and people trapped by negative equity are a real problem, and its only going to multiply in the coming years. Would the government allow something like this to be legislated for, given the massive fire sales that would take place across the country almost immediately?

Interesting commentary on the story btw, I hadn't any idea that this Irish Property Council were angling for a taxpayer funded reduction in their loans, a bad idea on so many levels its not even funny. Thats why I love the internet, you get to the bottom of things pretty quickly.

How Strange

First off, that paper is a rag and anything in it should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Don't forget that particular newspaper printed article after article telling people to keep buying, buy more property, invest in property in Ireland and abroad. They were one of the vested interests. And now they print this article which really is bizarre.

Linking suicides to negative equity is really morally dubious and you have to ask yourself who is behind this article.

It's actually kind of disgusting and I think it does a great damage to the genuine associations who work with depressed, vulnerable and suicidal people without any agenda of their own.

hinault

The Sindo are the bottom of the barrel.

They have been waffling on about the recession for the last year.
Brendan O Connor, Marc Coleman, Carol Hunt and now Alison O Riordan have been bemoaning the passing of the Celtic Tiger.

Many of their articles have suggested that the "middle classes" need to be bailed out.

These were the same middle classes, whom the Sindo gushed about "going to New York on shopping trips" and who lauded "BT2, Harvey Nichols and all the other emporia for bringing 'brand choice' to the Irish consumer".
The very same Sindo that now bemoans the passing of all that and will use suicide to further their point of view.

My heart bleeds for them and the constituency that those clowns claim to represent.
Hypocrits all.

Amhran Nua

How Strange wrote: »

Linking suicides to negative equity is really morally dubious and you have to ask yourself who is behind this article.

There was a well known property developer in Galway that hung himself over his debts last year, as I recall - I don't think the article is factually incorrect.

silverharp

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Well no, lets say they took out a €350,000 mortgage on a one bed apartment. They have €50,000 paid off, and can sell it for €150,000. That means they would owe the bank €150,000 (I'm ignoring interest for the sake of simplicity). They could probably get a decent two bed or even a three bed house a bit further out for €200,000 these days, so they would then owe the bank €350,000 again but have an actual home they can live in for a few decades if they need to. Unsuitable living conditions and people trapped by negative equity are a real problem, and its only going to multiply in the coming years. Would the government allow something like this to be legislated for, given the massive fire sales that would take place across the country almost immediately?

Interesting commentary on the story btw, I hadn't any idea that this Irish Property Council were angling for a taxpayer funded reduction in their loans, a bad idea on so many levels its not even funny. Thats why I love the internet, you get to the bottom of things pretty quickly.

If the purpose of the article echoed your sentiments at the start, i'd fully concur, people should be encouraged to seek help if they feel the whole thing has gotten away from them but maybe there is an agenda by the paper and the group behind the article.

As for your suggestion, its very risky, contracts can be defaulted on but bring in a gov. mandate to amend them and one ends up on a slippery slope. It might also end up depressing the price of apartments further and increasing the price of family homes which would then effect the prices that new first time buyers would have to pay. There is no cost free way of helping out one group without impacting on another group.

If the gov wanted to do something it should get rid of stamp duty which would bring down the transaction costs. It might even free up family properties as older people could trade down wothout being taxed in the process.

How Strange

Amhran Nua wrote: »

There was a well known property developer in Galway that hung himself over his debts last year, as I recall - I don't think the article is factually incorrect.

But that's not to say it's factually correct either. It's what's sometimes referred to as the mother with child in her arms argument. It's deliberately manipulative because no-one can deny that people have committed suicide as a result of financial stress but that doesn't mean it's as endemic as the article suggests.

I also think that absolute rag and waste of ink and paper is using something like suicide for questionable reasons. As another poster said it's new agenda is to save the debt ridden middle class and absolve them of their debt brought about by 15 years of rampant capitalistic greed.

As I said before it undermines all good work done by the agencies and organisations which help people cope with financial debt, depression or suicide.

Amhran Nua

Silverharp2 wrote: »

As for your suggestion, its very risky, contracts can be defaulted on but bring in a gov. mandate to amend them and one ends up on a slippery slope. It might also end up depressing the price of apartments further and increasing the price of family homes which would then effect the prices that new first time buyers would have to pay. There is no cost free way of helping out one group without impacting on another group.

Its just putting something into practise that should be standard anyway, if the payments are still affordable and the family gains a better home as a result, why not? I don't think it would particularly end up depressing the price of apartments as families can live in larger apartments as well as houses. It might reduce the price of the shoeboxes, but thats all to the good and inevitable anyway to be honest.

Silverharp2 wrote: »

If the gov wanted to do something it should get rid of stamp duty which would bring down the transaction costs. It might even free up family properties as older people could trade down wothout being taxed in the process.

I don't think you get taxed CGT on changing your PPR?

How Strange wrote: »

It's deliberately manipulative because no-one can deny that people have committed suicide as a result of financial stress but that doesn't mean it's as endemic as the article suggests.

It wouldn't seem that unlikely, in fairness. I think the idea of "thousands" of people committing suicide is a bit ludicrous alright. The intention of the article as I posted it would be to underline the tremendous cost of the shambles brought about largely by the government and banks, and not just in financial terms. That the group putting this forward might have shady motivations (which I've just found out) doesn't reduce that message.

How Strange wrote: »

As I said before it undermines all good work done by the agencies and organisations which help people cope with financial debt, depression or suicide.

There are at least two seperate charities mentioned in the article.

How Strange

David Mellon, of the Irish Property Council believes the human misery inflicted by the collapse in the property and construction industry is incalculable and the Government is doing nothing to protect the sanctity of the family home.

Irish Property Council, according to their website is a professional organisation set up to provide a cogent voice to the people engaged in the property business in Ireland, including builders, developers and investors.
Now, IMO, whatever credibility that article may have had is shot to bits. Here is a guy who was involved in selling these overpriced homes to these people and now he wants government interference to protect 'the sanctity of the family home'.

Personally, I find the popular theme of 'blame the government, take the responsibility away from me' very unnerving. People have to take personal responsibility for the choices they made and now that the good times are over it means they have to negotiate their way through this debt and manage it.

What I find distasteful about this article is the underlying threat that people will commit suicide if they aren't bailed out and this threat is delivered by an organisation for property developers. There are hundreds of thousands people trying to find ways to cope with their debt. They are doing it using agencies such as MABS and of course they are under great pressure and stress and their marriages and family lives are suffering but they are taking responsibility.

I find the article disrespectful to them. I also think it's disrespecful to the families of people who have had family members who committed suicide. It's almost trivialising suicide by saying if the government takes on the personal debt of these people they won't have to resort to suicide.

Because they quoted two charities working with suicide in the article gives the impression it's a serious piece of journalism when in fact it's manipulative and wholly disingenuous.

silverharp

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I don't think you get taxed CGT on changing your PPR?

was thinking of stamp duty, which is a substantial cost if one wants to trade down a bedroom or 2

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its just putting something into practise that should be standard anyway, if the payments are still affordable and the family gains a better home as a result, why not? I don't think it would particularly end up depressing the price of apartments as families can live in larger apartments as well as houses. It might reduce the price of the shoeboxes, but thats all to the good and inevitable anyway to be honest.

if the banks want to do it I have no problem with it, but they maybe taking on more risk. The couple now have more costs while their income is the same for instance. It would have to be a commercial proposition which may work for some people if their incomes have risen in the meantime, junior doctors and the like, or a single person with negetive equity now has a partner that can accelerate the payments.

Amhran Nua

Silverharp2 wrote: »

was thinking of stamp duty, which is a substantial cost if one wants to trade down a bedroom or 2

Thats a good point.

Silverharp2 wrote: »

if the banks want to do it I have no problem with it, but they maybe taking on more risk. The couple now have more costs while their income is the same for instance. It would have to be a commercial proposition which may work for some people if their incomes have risen in the meantime, junior doctors and the like, or a single person with negetive equity now has a partner that can accelerate the payments.

While the example I gave was a bit laboured, I think the general idea has a lot of merit. As long as it remains within a reasonable margin of their previous payments, or equal to same, it should be doable.

The concept hinges on the fact that you can buy a lot more for a lot less these days, so the end result should be the same costs but a better quality of living, while smaller/lower quality places fall in price rapidly. The bank loses nothing (in fact it gains extra payments), the people moving gain, and the taxpayer doesn't pay a red cent for it. It would affect a lot of people, but probably not enough to have a significant impact on the market for family homes (which is a lot bigger than the market for shoeboxes).

Once the market stabilises, or reaches bottom, the mechanism wouldn't be needed any more since negative equity would be much less of a problem.

spockety

An utterly disgusting use of the dead.

Does anyone really think this property council's primary objective is to prevent finance related suicides? My hole.

nachoman

How Strange wrote: »

I also think that absolute rag and waste of ink and paper is using something like suicide for questionable reasons. As another poster said it's new agenda is to save the debt ridden middle class and absolve them of their debt brought about by 15 years of rampant capitalistic greed.

right on!

Dannyboy83

"I have been receiving from [calls] people in difficulty who are at the end of their tether fearing their home will be repossessed. They are displaying worrying depressive tendencies. Their mental health is being put under pressure and there are immense pressures on families.

"It is having an impact on marriages which is not being taken into account. The social implications are enormous. The screw is being turned on marriages and the family unit and that is going to have far reaching consequences for Irish society for years to come," Ms Walsh said.

None of the landlords I've had to deal with in the last 7 years of renting gave a flying fcuk about the impact their greed was having on young families or marriages or the family unit or Irish society.

So now the shoe is on the other foot and your life ambition of extorting money from young families to live in a shoebox has collapsed in front of you.

Excuse me if I don't shed a tear.

Let Darwin do his work we will be better off, this is some crap to be putting in a newspaper. Do we want to start comparing suicide rates? What about the unemployed who wont ever get jobs if we keep throwing billions into NAMA tryin to put a floor under property prices?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlz1IKWfw4

fontanalis

Amhran Nua
I find your title to be emotional blackmail unless it's not your opinion you should put it in quotation marks. How do you/they not know the state isn't moved? How do you measure this movement?
Seeing Mellon on The Frontline I have to say David Davin Power was right they want to restart the game of pass the bag of sh!t.

Amhran Nua

fontanalis wrote: »

Amhran Nua
I find your title to be emotional blackmail unless it's not your opinion you should put it in quotation marks. How do you/they not know the state isn't moved? How do you measure this movement?

You can find it whatever way you like, its copied verbatim directly from the newspaper headline.

shoegirl

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

None of the landlords I've had to deal with in the last 7 years of renting gave a flying fcuk about the impact their greed was having on young families or marriages or the family unit or Irish society.

So now the shoe is on the other foot and your life ambition of extorting money from young families to live in a shoebox has collapsed in front of you.

Excuse me if I don't shed a tear.

I have to say there is a point in this. A lot of self-payers in the private rented sector are the forgotten ones, yet still paying over and above. Plus high rents did ransom a lot of families terrified of rents rising at rates of 20% a year as they did between 1998 and 2001. There were a lot of people who didn't care how their policies impacted others and now there is a lot of crying wolf.

The organisation is being very exploitative in using property related debt as the sole problem behind these suicides. Most people who kill themselves do so for a multiplicity of reasons, not just one. There is rarely in any case any concrete evidence of what those reasons were. It is deeply unfair to those left behind to suggest that if somebody had "bailed" out their loved one that all would have been well. A lot of others lead tough lives too in the current climate. There are hundreds of homeless on the streets around Ireland who are not committing suicide en masse so why suggest that these other folk are?

I don't want to trivialise those who might have, its just plain wrong for a lobby group to use it to bully the govt into more bailouts for people who have hurt a lot of others in the process of exploiting them.

lucy2010

Im sorry but am I alone in seeing the fact of Suicide here. These people have been in such a rut they felt no other option left apart from suicide. Such a loss of life when others are holding this country to ransom for millions & are able to walk away scot free. In the next town down there have been 3 debt-suicides in the last 3 weeks .. Not for millions for a few thousand - Yet they felt there was no other way out of it .

D3PO

lucy2010 wrote: »

there have been 3 debt-suicides in the last 3 weeks .. Not for millions for a few thousand - Yet they felt there was no other way out of it .

thats absolute speculation. How do you know that was the reason ? I dont want to treat the topic as trivial and its going to be a very emotive subject but government policy cannot be determined either by speculation or even in the event of this being true the minority, not can bailouts.

Somebody who commits suicide is clearly not in the right frame of mind. If something like being in debt is being attributed to pushing them over the edge it could be argued that something else at some other time would have casued this action to happen anyway.

There are more people killed on the roads than being attributed to suicide due to debt. Should we all lobby the government to ban cars .....

Im sorry if this isnt comining across as sympathetic and I wouldnt wish this to happen to anybody but its wrong to use this as a lobby for bailouts

billybigunz

Big deal, there are 10 suicides every week in this state for all kinds of reasons.

bladespin

lucy2010 wrote: »

Im sorry but am I alone in seeing the fact of Suicide here. These people have been in such a rut they felt no other option left apart from suicide. Such a loss of life when others are holding this country to ransom for millions & are able to walk away scot free. In the next town down there have been 3 debt-suicides in the last 3 weeks .. Not for millions for a few thousand - Yet they felt there was no other way out of it .

That's pure speculation, as mentioned, people suicide for all kinds of reasons, high on that list is depression (possibly caused by debt issues).
The problem therfore isn't financial, it's medical and communal.

gurramok

126 people commited suicide between July and Sept last year, it makes you think about this topic.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0325/breaking59.html

kmick

"blah blah blah..leaves State unmoved."

Of course the State is unmoved its not your mammy or your cousin Fred who you go out with every Saturday night. It a cold faceless badly run corporation that frankly does not give a damn.