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The Pope's Letter
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aprilfool10 wrote: »your all been unfair to the pope he means well
Go on, Your real name is Brian Cowen, isn't it? April Fool my posterior !
"Yesterday, Taoiseach Brian Cowen defended the Vatican’s refusal to deal directly with the investigation into paedophile priests in the Dublin diocese.
He insisted Rome’s effective snub of Judge Yvonne Murphy’s inquiry was in keeping with international law concerning diplomatic channels.0 -
There is no end in the revelations. What's next?
It's time that Ratzinger steps down as pope. And while we're at it, confine the catholic church as a private religious sect with no saying whatsoever in society.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,685712,00.html
(it's in English)0 -
Yes, there is a lot more to this than we know about so far.The Pope has another letter to ber far more concened about
http://www.aolnews.com/article/pope-allegedly-knew-about-wisc-pedophile-priest/19414010
Anyone else watch Newsnight on BBC2?
In fact, there is an awful lot that we do not know about this present Pope, who allegedly was a fervent member of the Hitler Youth and a major bully in church circles for many years before being elected Pope.
Unconfirmed but widely repeated un-supported allegations about the same pope, from his time in Rome as head enforcer of the Curia, of Inquisition fame, concerned his social life and alleged close personal and allegedly intimate relationships with non-females. These allegations were never investigated by the serious press. Maybe this present controversy may change that and we may get to know the truth, one way or the other.
But will it make any difference? We already accept bishops and cardinals covering up for paedofile priest rings that may well have also killed some of their victims, to cover their crimse. Can we go any lower in prostrating ourselves before the church?0 -
Mein Gott, thank you for this reference.There is no end in the revelations. What's next?
It's time that Ratzinger steps down as pope. And while we're at it, confine the catholic church as a private religious sect with no saying whatsoever in society.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,685712,00.html
(it's in English)
I noted in particular the bit:" Since 1982, Ratzinger had been responsible for that part of the Vatican which deals with cases of sexual abuse. Who, other than he, was responsible for the Church's path?"
jayssus, people, are we going to fire a few middle managers and let the chief responsible get off scott free?
Maybe cad. Brady was right to say he would only resign if the pope asked him to.
He knows Raztinger has all the big skeletons in his own closet, back in the vatican.0 -
The Raven. wrote: »The 'Novus Ordu' refers to the form of Catholic mass put into operation by Pope Paul VI, after the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II), to make it more accessible to the congregation. However, Vatican II opened the floodgates for all sorts of liberal interpretations, which went way beyond the aspirations of the council to bring it up to date in relation to modern society.
But Rome can't have it both ways. If it wants to claim that Vatican II has been misinterpreted - in other words that the liberalisation that followed was not what the Council intended - it can equally be argued that Humanae Vitae was a misinterpretation of the intentions of the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control which voted overwhelmingly in favour of the relaxation of the Church's position on the subject.
There was no need to refer to Vatican II in the Pope's letter, other than as a statement of general Vatican policy. After all, child abuse by clerics long predated the Council's establishment.0 -
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You are both quite right, of course.Orchard Rebel wrote: »But Rome can't have it both ways. If it wants to claim that Vatican II has been misinterpreted - in other words that the liberalisation that followed was not what the Council intended - it can equally be argued that Humanae Vitae was a misinterpretation of the intentions of the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control which voted overwhelmingly in favour of the relaxation of the Church's position on the subject.
There was no need to refer to Vatican II in the Pope's letter, other than as a statement of general Vatican policy. After all, child abuse by clerics long predated the Council's establishment.
The duplicitious papal letter was a PR-professionally constructed but ultimately desperate attempt to defend the indefensible. How do you say in a nice acceptable way to members of any religion: "sorry, I was the Cardinal in charge of the world-wide cover-up and the willing protection of paedofile priests and the official church facilitator of their god-given right to move on to new pastures of delicious helpless children to rape and in some cases kill"?
Of course, the self-serving letter never said that. Unbelievably in any other country, except Ireland, it tried to put the blame on the laity instead, who it said were falling into secularism. Yes, the PR gurus said, "wait, lets just change the actors". Ten years ago they might have tried an even more Bart Simpsonesque approach, like perhaps: "Maybe we can convince at least some of them that the priests were communists dressed up as priests?" "Maybe it was all a bad dream?" No, the cynical letter was aimed at the happy-to-be-gullibe, largely elderly and compliant minority that remains of their former congregations. It was designed as a sort of sick but effective rally the stop-gap troops effort. The same ra-ra effect was what sean Brady was aiming for with his two-faced cry for sympathy, aimed at the 350 sheep who still remained with the clever shepherd, in Armagh, where he spoke volumes of his own deep values and a sentence and a half about the children abused by the paedofile priest he himself protected while breaking the civil law in obstructing garda investigations.
I would like to think that the pope and his bishops and priest child rapists and murderers are terrified of the many catholic sheep who strayed away, never to return, waiting with knocking knees in anticipation of their whole sick house of paedofile ridden cards to fall at any minute. But I do not believe for a minute that they are in any danger in an Ireland that truly is a priest-ridden society ( no pun intended, of course).
Brady's thinly veiled threat to the pope when he said he would only resign when asked to by the "holy father" was a reminder that thieves and other criminals, like paedofiles, are often tied from informing on their brothers, by what they know about each other and thus naturally always look out for each other.
The religious worms are turning, boys and girls. We have to be very careful now what they may do next. They have already raped and murdered our children, stolen our taxes to pay all the bills and undermined our legal system by foisting canon as opposed to civil law through our compliant politicians, giving us a theocracy rather than a democracy. What is next? A return of the inquisition? Oh sorry, I forgot, thanks to a decision prompted by Cardinal ratzinger, "they never went away" ! Yes, the church refused a request to rescind the canon law empowering the inquisition some years ago, on the strong prompting of Ratzinger. Now where did I hear that name before??0 -
Perhaps now is the prime opportunity to take action and change Irish society forever. Both the Catholic Church and Fianna Fáil, which are each largely responsible for crafting Irish society into what it is today (an environment where their corrupt institutions can prosper), are rapidly losing supporters. Perhaps what is needed is a new political party that is dedicated to the complete secularization of Ireland and that has the balls to confront the church and deal with the corruption that has plagued our country for far too long.
Just a thought that hopefully will become a reality.0 -
There is definitely no "may well" about it! Children were killed whilst under the protection of the church bodies.We already accept bishops and cardinals covering up for paedofile priest rings that may well have also killed some of their victims, to cover their crimse. Can we go any lower in prostrating ourselves before the church?
I recall being told of one child who was missing the day after they were thrown down a set of stairs - there was however a new unmarked grave in the grounds though!
Many many other similar stories out there!
You also have the stories of suicides following years of abuse. These are the fault of the abusers and anyone who protected them!0 -
I and I am sure many others would be interested in hearing about those stories and any supporting references. I know that the minimal official enquiries so far have concentrated on only selected victims accounts and the dead or missing have not been looked for in any meaningful way. The records would also probably have been altered to hide evidence of the existence of such cases by church personnel, as part of the culture of cover-up and facilitation.There is definitely no "may well" about it! Children were killed whilst under the protection of the church bodies.
I recall being told of one child who was missing the day after they were thrown down a set of stairs - there was however a new unmarked grave in the grounds though!
Many many other similar stories out there!
You also have the stories of suicides following years of abuse. These are the fault of the abusers and anyone who protected them!0 -
The allegations came to light during the CICA enquiry.
e.g. http://www.childabusecommission.ie/events/documents/Transcript%20160604.pdf
Unfortunately to my knowledge, no details were kept for obvious reasons - I was informed of them by a trustworthy source.0 -
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I understand, friend. But maybe others may be able to start a thread to begin to share even anecdotal accounts, under the protection of the liberal use of words such as "alleged", unsupported testimony and hearsay" "not proven or possible untrue" etc etc.The allegations came to light during the CICA enquiry.
e.g. http://www.childabusecommission.ie/events/documents/Transcript%20160604.pdf
Unfortunately to my knowledge, no details were kept for obvious reasons - I was informed of them by a trustworthy source.
We have a well developed and co-ordinated political, religious and justice climate of denial and reluctance to discover any facts that can be hidden at work here. It is unlikely that we will ever do anything to try to find justice for these hidden victims of the sexual depravity, sadistic violence and inhumanity that typified our roman catholic institutions over so many years.
The priest perpetrators, in particular, operated in groups and protected each other, especially as many moved on to become bishops, cardinals and perhaps higher, if some of the stories coming out recently are to be believed?
The revealing comment by Cardinal Brady that he will only resign if asked directly by ratzinger to do so tells more than perhaps he intended regarding the circles of self-protection and mutual knowledge between clergy that are clearly at work here.0 -
Apparently one of the biggest difficulties that the commission had in identifying abusers was the fact that the various orders used to rename the monks/nuns as frequently as the weather so Brother John for example could suddenly become Brother Mark. There could also be several people with the same name. Matters were made worse when they were transferred to another monastery.The priest perpetrators, in particular, operated in groups and protected each other, especially as many moved on to become bishops, cardinals and perhaps higher, if some of the stories coming out recently are to be believed?
For whatever reason, no records were really kept of the name changes.
So victims made claims about a brother but the name of the offender was pretty much worthless. How do you follow something like this up?0 -
The answer should of course be simple, if we lived in a country where everyone was equal before the law. It was always illegal for non-religious to not report such crimes as soon as they became aware of them or for them to collude in cover-ups and impede investigations, including by never letting them get started in the first place.Apparently one of the biggest difficulties that the commission had in identifying abusers was the fact that the various orders used to rename the monks/nuns as frequently as the weather so Brother John for example could suddenly become Brother Mark. There could also be several people with the same name. Matters were made worse when they were transferred to another monastery.
For whatever reason, no records were really kept of the name changes.
So victims made claims about a brother but the name of the offender was pretty much worthless. How do you follow something like this up?
That the Gardai were complicit in not prosecuting the religious involved was down to a complicit conspiracy fostered by successive governments working hand in hand with both the Irish Church and the Vatican through the Papal Nuncio.
Mc Quaide's own role is at best ambiguous. I will not repeat comments I have made elsewhere on boards re his own suspected behaviours as reputedly reported by Dr. Noel Browne, unfortunately in informal settings.
So, if we had a government with a minister for justice worthy of the title, we could easily indict all senior religious and force them to hand over all records. If, is a big word here ! There should have been dawn raids to secure files and records and mass arrests. But, in Ireland?? Never ! This is not a democracy and never will be, until this cancerous relationship between church and state is cut out forever.0 -
Orchard Rebel wrote: »The Raven. wrote: »The 'Novus Ordu' refers to the form of Catholic mass put into operation by Pope Paul VI, after the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II), to make it more accessible to the congregation. However, Vatican II opened the floodgates for all sorts of liberal interpretations, which went way beyond the aspirations of the council to bring it up to date in relation to modern society.
But Rome can't have it both ways. If it wants to claim that Vatican II has been misinterpreted - in other words that the liberalisation that followed was not what the Council intended - it can equally be argued that Humanae Vitae was a misinterpretation of the intentions of the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control which voted overwhelmingly in favour of the relaxation of the Church's position on the subject.
There was no need to refer to Vatican II in the Pope's letter, other than as a statement of general Vatican policy. After all, child abuse by clerics long predated the Council's establishment.
My understanding is that some of 'the liberalisation that followed was not what the Council intended'. However, to twist that around, by using it as an excuse for the scandalous clerical abuse, is unadulterated Jesuitical casuistry, which is in itself heinous and offensive.
It is utterly callous, cowardly and dishonest, and a further insult to the victims of clerical abuse, to shift the blame on to a misinterpretation of Vatican II. In doing so, the Pope is seriously underestimating the intelligence of a large percentage of Irish people who have no doubt about the reality of the situation, which is that innocent children were physically and sexually abused by treacherous and depraved paedophile clerics, who were subsequently protected by the Roman Catholic hierarchy, and that the whole rotten saga was covered up in a conspiracy of denial and deceit, before and after Vatican II.0 -
The Raven. wrote: »My understanding ... the Pope is seriously underestimating the intelligence of a large percentage of Irish people who have no doubt about the reality of the situation...
I'm afraid that's where you are wrong. I doubt it very much that a "large percentage of Irish people" actually see the reality, not only of the situation but of the church as such.
The hierarchy of the catholic church is so ingrained - mentally, socially and spiritually - that in my opinion and experience the majority still can't distinguish between their own believes and the catholic hierarchy. They feel that condemning or at least rejecting the clerical atrocities is to abandon their religion.
To discuss the intricacies of Vatican II or whatever just shows that the institution of the church and their rules as such still matters.
Fact is that the catholic church is an organisation of secrecy, of superiority, of power. At least from about 1022 when celibacy was introduced by canon law (by a pope Benedict, of all names). Not for spiritual reasons but to avoid that married priest might have children who might inherit their fortunes which they extorted from the ordinary people in exchange for a place in some imagined heaven. The hierarchy (sic!) wanted that all the priestly money goes back to the church to enrich and to empower them even further. All the nuancies of any Vaticanal declarations are just adaptions to the modern world and attempts to stay in power.
As long as the majority of catholics don't truly understand this principle of power and greed there won't be any change.
I'm afraid that with the political and social culture we have (power and greed) there is no hope.
Unless there are some imaginative and clever politicians around. But look what happened in the 1950s to Noel Browne who tried to introduce a mother and child care and got kicked out by the church and the medical hierarchy - both united for greed and power.
The establishment will always stick together, unless, yeah, well unless...?0 -
I'm afraid that's where you are wrong. I doubt it very much that a "large percentage of Irish people" actually see the reality, not only of the situation but of the church as such.
I don’t think it is valid to state categorically that someone is ‘wrong’ and follow it by saying ‘I doubt very much that…’
There aren’t as many churchgoers as there used to be. Things are changing, albeit slowly. Every day people are expressing their disgust at the blatant cover-ups. It is understandable that some are in denial, but deep down they know the truth. Whether they act on it is another matter.The hierarchy of the catholic church is so ingrained - mentally, socially and spiritually - that in my opinion and experience the majority still can't distinguish between their own believes and the catholic hierarchy. They feel that condemning or at least rejecting the clerical atrocities is to abandon their religion.
You have a point here, but it is impossible to establish whether or not it is a ‘majority’. This type of argument is usually targeted against the older generation, but let’s not forget that it was members of that particular generation that were beaten, bruised, insulted and worse by the religious orders in Catholic schools. Those memories don’t just fade away. It was the Catholic indoctrination/’the Faith’ and the fear of ‘hell’, not the hierarchy, that was instilled into their minds, leaving an indelible mark on their hearts and souls for the rest of their lives. Some people can’t let go of that, while others battle against it. Many of these people now feel betrayed by the Catholic hierarchy who imposed the indoctrination of dogmatic theology (faith in God etc.), and the principles of Catholic moral virtue which they subsequently contravened.To discuss the intricacies of Vatican II or whatever just shows that the institution of the church and their rules as such still matters.
It was the Pope who brought up the subject of Vatican II. It is because of the nonsense and deceit on his part in relation to this issue that it is being discussed here. The only thing that ‘matters’, in this context, is the gravity of his excuses for obstructing the course of justice.…celibacy was introduced by canon law… Not for spiritual reasons but to avoid that married priest might have children who might inherit their fortunes which they extorted from the ordinary people in exchange for a place in some imagined heaven… …All the nuancies [sic] of any Vaticanal [sic] declarations are just adaptions [sic] to the modern world and attempts to stay in power.
It is an interesting theory, but other cults do the opposite: members have several ‘wives’ to produce more children to increase the flock, who in turn go out and raise more money for their organization.I'm afraid that with the political and social culture we have (power and greed) there is no hope.
Yes, I agree. That needs to change. Sadly, the finer aspects of Christian moral standards have become devalued in favour of the prevailing culture of greed and self-interest, and there is an acute need for the promotion of strong moral principles and the ideology of social conscience, outside the control of the church.0 -
I came across another thread entitled " could a paedophile priest be an instrument for good?" I tried this comment but without success. Maybe the mod has me hexed ? Oops. Just joking. Can I try it here, please? Fanny Craddock has just said she didn't think much of the comments so far and was going to transfer it to a mega thread somewhere, when I offered this tit-bit:
"One has to wonder what poor old fanny would actually consider a good response to a topic like this? I mean, a "paedophile priest", as an "instrument" for "good"?
Lets try to parse it up a bit, shall we? (I said "parse" , fanny ! )
Paedophile priests? So, we are talking about the catholics again. We have seen that there are an awful lot of paedophiles working as priests. It seems to be a good career choice for them, with lots of opportunities for play and promotion assured if you get into the right rings. You can go all the way, bishop, cardinal etc.
Many of them were very well received by parishoners, until they discovered what the good old father was up to. But, wait, most of them never knew what he had been doing to God knows how many little uns as he was whisked off to pastures new before they knew he was gone. But they were happy with them before then. That has to count for something? Then, as we learned from so many homilies, often the children were little temptresses or tempters and the poor old priest was really just a victim himself. Sure, we should all be sorry for him, not for the little devils that were doing all that tempting?
The murders? Where is your proof? Where are the little bloody bodies? Go on, ya heathens. You are just anti-church. We don't have to listen to you and we certainly don't have to pay you any of our lovely money. The state is there for that sort of thing.
You say the Bishops want us to forgive the poor victim priests and to share in the blame and to stay with them in the church. You say it says a lot about the church concerned.
Yes, we forgive you heathen parishoners who have said such awful things about us and our poor paedophoile priests. Don't you know it's an illness, like alcoholism. It's not their fault. You are asking about the bishops and cardinals and the pope who condoned and facilitated them and moved them around so they wouldn't get arrested? well, who is to say they weren't sick too? They need your prayers, not to be arrested.
Go on, we even wrote a nice little prayer for them to say out loud when anyone starts bringing up the subject of child rape by our good priests.
Learn it off by heart. You never know when one of them atheists will start on about the sex thing. Use it whenever you need to. We may even award you some plenary indulgences if you manage to make them go away.
Fanny, What is the mega thread about? Where is it?
Can you send this one there too, please?
Go on. A plenary indulgence if you do....
go on, ya will, ya will, ya will0 -
Irlandese, I gave you the thumbs up here for all your posts regarding the failings of the church, your passion to fight ignorance and to stand your ground. I admire that, even if I don't always agree with bits and pieces of your opinion.
Bottom line in my belief(s) is that every religion which is based on power and manipulation is a bad one.
The catholic church brought more misery to this world than anyone else. The church created wars, torture and discrimination, suppressed ancient and modern knowledge and enlightenment, especially those of women, divided peoples and cultures. It tried to keep the world in the dark ages - just for power.
If some proof for my opinion is needed, read history books. Not every knowledge and wisdom is linkable by the way. Some people acutally think for themselves after reading and studying and being open-minded.0 -
Irlandese, I gave you the thumbs up here for all your posts regarding the failings of the church, your passion to fight ignorance and to stand your ground. I admire that, even if I don't always agree with bits and pieces of your opinion.
Bottom line in my belief(s) is that every religion which is based on power and manipulation is a bad one.
The catholic church brought more misery to this world than anyone else. The church created wars, torture and discrimination, suppressed ancient and modern knowledge and enlightenment, especially those of women, divided peoples and cultures. It tried to keep the world in the dark ages - just for power.
If some proof for my opinion is needed, read history books. Not every knowledge and wisdom is linkable by the way. Some people acutally think for themselves after reading and studying and being open-minded.
Thank you for that friend. I hope I deserve at least some of it.
I am sure I come across as a crochety old bugger a lot of the time and I am sorry for that and for my occasional anger and sometimes unintended offence. I imagine I have quite a different re-action from more than a few readers ! Oh go on fanny ! I know you do ! You do, you do !
You are right of course that I am naturally off target ( more than? ) a bit at times. I now work on the basis that in life if we can consistently get decisions right 70% plus of the time, this a great average. 50% to 60% I was taught is well better than average. I always appreciate learning by just how much I am wrong, from commentators I can respect and learn from, whether they like me or not. But a kindred spirit is always a comfort !
Yes, friend, the misogony of the Judeo-Christian faiths is at the heart of much of their sin against mankind. Then, fundamentalism in any religion is a fertile breeding ground for the evil that they do, on such a vast scale.
Would that we could change it all. We can never return the oak groves and holy places to our pagan ancestors and their Druids and other learned and holy women and men and give them a clean earth to work with to bring us all into a better place. But we can at least start deep inside our own heads to begin to clean house, to use a phrase currently being adopted for PR purposes something quite different in Rome these days.0
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