The Pope's Letter

underclass

The Raven. wrote: »

It is highly inappropriate of him to use this situation as a political exercise to tighten up the Vatican II interpretation, in a public response to the disclosure of Catholic clerical abuse of vulnerable children. Vatican II has no relevance in this situation. These paedophiles are more likely to have joined the church as a safe haven in which to practise their criminal behaviour, rather than having been influenced by misinterpretation of the bible, although they may have used it as a handy excuse.

His reference to Vatican II was insignificant. The Pope has a much larger role as being the leader of God's church - all his publications reflect ongoing themes of his: one of which is a clamp-down on the runaway Novus Ordo mentality. If anything, he was telling us that the way forward for the Church is not the type of happy-clappy Christianity that promised so much, but God-fearing Christianity where confession and penance are common-place and people participate fully in their faith as opposed to paying lip service by only attending Mass at Easter, Christmas, wedding days and funeral days.

Don't worry: the Pope will have a lot more to say on the misinterpretations of Vatican II over the coming months and years.

Nerin

underclass wrote: »

His reference to Vatican II was insignificant. The Pope has a much larger role as being the leader of God's church - all his publications reflect ongoing themes of his: one of which is a clamp-down on the runaway Novus Ordo mentality. If anything, he was telling us that the way forward for the Church is not the type of happy-clappy Christianity that promised so much, but God-fearing Christianity where confession and penance are common-place and people participate fully in their faith as opposed to paying lip service by only attending Mass at Easter, Christmas, wedding days and funeral days.

Don't worry: the Pope will have a lot more to say on the misinterpretations of Vatican II over the coming months and years.

Wasn't it the god fearing bending over backwards stance that Ireland had that let the bad elements in the church get away with their crimes for so long though?

hallelujajordan

underclass wrote: »

His reference to Vatican II was insignificant. The Pope has a much larger role as being the leader of God's church - all his publications reflect ongoing themes of his: one of which is a clamp-down on the runaway Novus Ordo mentality. If anything, he was telling us that the way forward for the Church is not the type of happy-clappy Christianity that promised so much, but God-fearing Christianity where confession and penance are common-place and people participate fully in their faith as opposed to paying lip service by only attending Mass at Easter, Christmas, wedding days and funeral days.

WOW . . If you are right, we are in even bigger trouble. God-fearing Christianity has never served any good and one could argue that it was in this type of environment that child-abuse and subsequent cover-up were almost inevitable.

When are we going to realise that God is to be embraced, not feared ?

dan_d

During all of this, I have to wonder why they are no other members of our society being called to book for these crimes.

I also have to wonder why there was such a proliferation of these crimes among BOTH the clergy and the lay people during these periods - always seems to be the 70's - mid 90's, say.

Firstly, the gardai and the the public were hand in hand with the church on this. There are numerous intertwined reasons, mainly relating to the standing of the church in Ireland at the time. Yet for some reason, the question is not being asked of the gardai, of the health/social services at the time, who put children in these schools and homes run by clergy, and turned a blind eye.

What happened was absolutely appalling. Yet all fingers point squarely at the church - probably because such a large number of people in our society want us to all think that the church is a monster. Perish the thought that anyone might ask the people of modern day Ireland and the modern day world to think of somebody other than themselves for a while.

Most days on the news, we also hear about people being brought to trial for sexually abusing local children or young relatives during a period of X -Y in the 70s/80s/90s.Does anybody out there not stop and wonder what on earth was going on in our society at that time that, for starters, drove people to that, and secondly, allowed it to continue? Somebody always knows something.How many people turned a blind eye for years? There's some serious questions to be asked here, and they certainly don't all relate to the Church.

Whatever the Pope did or didn't say, my personal opinion is that victims groups will never be happy. How can they be? Nothing will ever make up for what happened. But equally, there are some very good men in the church, men who have devoted their whole lives to their religion, and who now find themselves in a position where they have to stand on a pulpit every weekend and be judged by a mob, for crimes they didn't commit. There is also an elderly section of our society, who believed their whole lives that religion is everything and - particularly at this stage of their lives - have faith none of us will ever have, who are struggling to listen to what is being played out and stoked by our media (I am thinking of an elderly grandparent here).

I am not a hugely devout catholic. I do go to Mass every weekend - but I go for me. I don't go to fulfill some commitment to a priest or the bible. I go because I like 40-45 mins of peace and quiet, to think. I enjoy the music, I like the familiarity of it, and I have found, with the untimely deaths of a number of relatives in recent years, a certain amount of comfort in the church and it's beliefs. I won't defend my faith, because it's my personal business and nobody else's. But it is wearing very thin listening to the endless criticism by people who, although they don't subscribe or profess to be a member, certainly have plenty to say about my religion.

The only people who have the real say here are those who have suffered. They are the judge of the Pope's letter. The rest of us - well, I suppose all I can do here is quote that well known, biblical phrase "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?". I'm not in the habit of that, but it seems appropriate here. It's very easy to be a critic.

scr123

dan_d wrote: »

During all of this, I have to wonder why they are no other members of our society being called to book for these crimes.

I also have to wonder why there was such a proliferation of these crimes among BOTH the clergy and the lay people during these periods - always seems to be the 70's - mid 90's, say.

Firstly, the gardai and the the public were hand in hand with the church on this. There are numerous intertwined reasons, mainly relating to the standing of the church in Ireland at the time. Yet for some reason, the question is not being asked of the gardai, of the health/social services at the time, who put children in these schools and homes run by clergy, and turned a blind eye.

What happened was absolutely appalling. Yet all fingers point squarely at the church - probably because such a large number of people in our society want us to all think that the church is a monster. Perish the thought that anyone might ask the people of modern day Ireland and the modern day world to think of somebody other than themselves for a while.

Most days on the news, we also hear about people being brought to trial for sexually abusing local children or young relatives during a period of X -Y in the 70s/80s/90s.Does anybody out there not stop and wonder what on earth was going on in our society at that time that, for starters, drove people to that, and secondly, allowed it to continue? Somebody always knows something.How many people turned a blind eye for years? There's some serious questions to be asked here, and they certainly don't all relate to the Church.

Whatever the Pope did or didn't say, my personal opinion is that victims groups will never be happy. How can they be? Nothing will ever make up for what happened. But equally, there are some very good men in the church, men who have devoted their whole lives to their religion, and who now find themselves in a position where they have to stand on a pulpit every weekend and be judged by a mob, for crimes they didn't commit. There is also an elderly section of our society, who believed their whole lives that religion is everything and - particularly at this stage of their lives - have faith none of us will ever have, who are struggling to listen to what is being played out and stoked by our media (I am thinking of an elderly grandparent here).

I am not a hugely devout catholic. I do go to Mass every weekend - but I go for me. I don't go to fulfill some commitment to a priest or the bible. I go because I like 40-45 mins of peace and quiet, to think. I enjoy the music, I like the familiarity of it, and I have found, with the untimely deaths of a number of relatives in recent years, a certain amount of comfort in the church and it's beliefs. I won't defend my faith, because it's my personal business and nobody else's. But it is wearing very thin listening to the endless criticism by people who, although they don't subscribe or profess to be a member, certainly have plenty to say about my religion.

The only people who have the real say here are those who have suffered. They are the judge of the Pope's letter. The rest of us - well, I suppose all I can do here is quote that well known, biblical phrase "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?". I'm not in the habit of that, but it seems appropriate here. It's very easy to be a critic.

Its nice to read a post that is not biased in a particular direction and sincere in attempts to understand rather than be self-righteous. My compliments to you

aprilfool10

your all been unfair to the pope he means well

hallelujajordan

dan_d wrote: »

The only people who have the real say here are those who have suffered. They are the judge of the Pope's letter. The rest of us - well, I suppose all I can do here is quote that well known, biblical phrase "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?". I'm not in the habit of that, but it seems appropriate here. It's very easy to be a critic.

I genuinely think you have this the wrong way around . . we all have specks of sawdust in our eyes but the legacy of clerical abuse in Ireland is one almighty plank in the eye of the church and one that we and the media are quite right to draw attention to . .

And I think all catholics have a right to judge the popes letter. I believe that many Irish catholics are at a crossroads in religious terms where we are ready but at the same time reluctant to walk away from the catholic church.

For my part, I am looking for reassurance that the church understands that as an institution it behaved in a deeply unchristian manner and that this could never happen again. I don't get that within the popes letter.

I want to see Cardinal Brady stand up and say that standing over a child and asking them to sign an oath of secrecy was wrong and unchristian. That not reporting the crimes that he was aware of to the local Gardai was deeply immoral and that he is sorry . . end of story !

If I could believe that the church understood where it had gone fundamentally wrong and if I could have faith in the honesty and integrity of those in the most powerful positions, I could forgive the church for any wrongdoings and move on . . but I cant.

peasant

hallelujajordan wrote: »

If I could believe that the church understood where it had gone fundamentally wrong and if I could have faith in the honesty and integrity of those in the most powerful positions, I could forgive the church for any wrongdoings and move on . . but I cant.

Indeed !


And just to recap, it wasn't "the church" that raped innocent children, it was sick individuals.

It was the church however that made individual abuse systematic by covering it up.

And it is the church that is currently failing at changing that system.

bmaxi

It's amazing how many people seem to want to just brush this under the carpet as if it was a simple mistake.
The perpetrators are still there, preaching every day to us on how to live our lives, yet not prepared to take responsibility for their own sins.
The Roman Catholic church is a corrupt organisation. It may not set out to be so and undoubtedly there are good people in it but it doesn't alter the basic truth.
From the foundation of the State, when the Church was given a special position, much too much power was devolved to the Church. The Archbishop of Dublin was the virtual monarch. Legislation, drawn up by the elected representatives of the people, was sent to him for approval, political appointees were vetted by him, nothing was agreed unless he agreed.
It was during this time that a lot of this abuse started. The Church was so powerful that nothing and no one could oppose it. Men became priests to be in a position of power rather than any divine calling, some were reluctant priests driven by parental ambition and in a situation like this it is almost inevitable that there will be bad eggs.When you have a situation like this come to pass in Ireland, a supposed democracy, how much more likely is it in an autocracy like the Vatican.
It's time the Church came clean and there was a new beginning, unfortunately it is unlikely to happen with the present administration.

sensibleken

peasant wrote: »

I feel genuinely sorry for all those involved in the church who have done no wrong, be they simple mass goer or caring priest.QUOTE]

im sure there are. and if it was a case of a few bad eggs we could deal with it as such, as how the church wants to.

but the problem is that this was policy, movement of the abusers and facililitation of abuse. that make it an organisational problem. that makes it an organisation that has engaged in massive criminal consipracy.

ask ourselves, if it was a secular organisation that behaved like this how would we react.

personally i think the organisation would be thrown out of the country and i do not see why we should treat this organisation any differently just because they are religious

Liam Byrne

dan_d wrote: »

Firstly, the gardai and the the public were hand in hand with the church on this. There are numerous intertwined reasons, mainly relating to the standing of the church in Ireland at the time. Yet for some reason, the question is not being asked of the gardai, of the health/social services at the time, who put children in these schools and homes run by clergy, and turned a blind eye.

Er....how are the Gardai supposed to investigate something that senior church members went out of their way to ensure were covered up ?

Gardai investigate reported crimes, as far as I know.....

Nerin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Er....how are the Gardai supposed to investigate something that senior church members went out of their way to ensure were covered up ?

Gardai investigate reported crimes, as far as I know.....

To be fair,there have been guards that found stuff out and were told to stfu. I think the Carney case was the one a guard only twenty minutes away from me found,and was told to keep quiet. His life was ruined,his family shunned. People are right,it wasn't just the church.

The Raven.

underclass wrote: »

His reference to Vatican II was insignificant. The Pope has a much larger role as being the leader of God's church - all his publications reflect ongoing themes of his: one of which is a clamp-down on the runaway Novus Ordo mentality. If anything, he was telling us that the way forward for the Church is not the type of happy-clappy Christianity that promised so much, but God-fearing Christianity where confession and penance are common-place and people participate fully in their faith as opposed to paying lip service by only attending Mass at Easter, Christmas, wedding days and funeral days.

Don't worry: the Pope will have a lot more to say on the misinterpretations of Vatican II over the coming months and years.

You seem to be agreeing and disagreeing here with what I said.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that 'His reference to Vatican II was insignificant.' It is obviously not insignificant to him; otherwise he wouldn't have said it. This also ties in with his ongoing concern about the 'misinterpretation' of Vatican II. You have reiterated this in your statement that 'all his publications reflect ongoing themes of his: one of which is a clamp-down on the runaway Novus Ordo mentality. If anything, he was telling us that the way forward for the Church is not the type of happy-clappy Christianity that promised so much...'.

The 'Novus Ordu' refers to the form of Catholic mass put into operation by Pope Paul VI, after the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II), to make it more accessible to the congregation. However, Vatican II opened the floodgates for all sorts of liberal interpretations, which went way beyond the aspirations of the council to bring it up to date in relation to modern society.

Liam Byrne

Nerin wrote: »

To be fair,there have been guards that found stuff out and were told to stfu. I think the Carney case was the one a guard only twenty minutes away from me found,and was told to keep quiet.

By whom ?

Nerin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

By whom ?

Completely top of my head and not backed up,but by his superiors and the bishop as far as i remember. I will look up details later and link. Think the guard was mentioned in the recent bbc show on Carney.

Scofflaw

underclass wrote: »

Shock horror: Church has own legal system.

The Vatican is a sovereign state. Canon law does have standing in Ireland: within the church. Multi-nationals and foreign armies who operate here have codes of secrecy and rules for dealing with wrong-doing. I suppose you get your knickers in a twist about this too?

Don't make the discussion personal, please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

sensibleken

underclass wrote: »

Shock horror: Church has own legal system.

The Vatican is a sovereign state. Canon law does have standing in Ireland: within the church. Multi-nationals and foreign armies who operate here have codes of secrecy and rules for dealing with wrong-doing. I suppose you get your knickers in a twist about this too?

they may have rules but that does not give them legal standing. for example if a company had rules that if an employee was found to be engaged in child abuse or murder that they would report it to their CEO and not to the police this would not be legal, and not worth the paper its written on.

the question is whether canon law is the same

Biggins

Originally Posted by underclass
Shock horror: Church has own legal system.
The Vatican is a sovereign state. Canon law does have standing in Ireland: within the church.

Its not a legal system, its a series of edicts set out as administration, behaviour and procedure rules as in any organisation or club.
* There are no civil courts, no rights of appeal, no legal defences, nothing that can be called a state constitution or foundation criteria laid out for supporting the legal existence of the people and their rights, the buildings and defined boundaries in which they exist on.
Canon law only has ANY standing ANYWHERE as long as its let in through the front door of every single person and they are not legally beholden to it.

Multi-nationals and foreign armies who operate here have codes of secrecy and rules for dealing with wrong-doing. I suppose you get your knickers in a twist about this too?

Foreign armies operating here!
Have we been invaded? I was at work, did I miss something?

Companies here have legal "duties of care" to their workers and these are enforced due to a national state legal system. Any contracts of secrecy that are created and entered into with the signing of contracts, are further protected (for the signer) with state laws (which take precedent!) pertaining to the reporting of crimes within ones state borders REGARDLESS of if the company wants to keep their copyright secrets, procedures or not, quiet within its walls!

Frankly, its my opinion that all you just mentioned is unproven rubbish.

The Raven.

underclass wrote: »

Shock horror: Church has own legal system.

The Vatican is a sovereign state. Canon law does have standing in Ireland: within the church. Multi-nationals and foreign armies who operate here have codes of secrecy and rules for dealing with wrong-doing.

The Vatican state incorporates Canon Law and Italian law, both of which are the laws of foreign states. However, precedents apparently exist where Canon Law has been admitted in Irish courts where it has a bearing on the case. I haven’t got any specific evidence or links as to the precise nature of these as yet, but I feel it would be a cause for concern in the context of the Catholic Church’s procedures in dealing with clerical abuse. Clarity and transparency is needed on this issue, especially in light of the recent ruling on blasphemy.

Multi-nationals, like all other companies and institutions, have rules, but they are not necessarily legally binding. ‘Codes of secrecy’ are acceptable only when they are not infringing or impeding the course of justice under Irish legislation.

What foreign armies are operating in Ireland?

sensibleken

The Raven. wrote: »

What foreign armies are operating in Ireland?

I presume this is meant to be the americans in shannon

The Raven.

sensibleken wrote: »

I presume this is meant to be the americans in shannon

Probably, but they are not exactly 'operating' in Ireland. They are only passing through.

Biggins

The best write-up I've seen so far that sums up the problem:

Colm O'Gorman: Papal letter was a disgraceful deceit

Pope Benedict XVI published his letter to the Irish church on the issue of child abuse on Saturday. What was necessary seemed clear. He had to acknowledge the cover up of the rape and abuse of children by priests, to take responsibility for it, and to show how he would ensure it never happened again.

But the letter failed to do any of that. There was no acceptance of responsibility for the now-established cover up, no plan to ensure that children will be properly protected around the global church, and no assurance that those who rape and abuse will be reported to the civil authorities.

The letter is clearly an effort to restore the credibility of a church rocked by the publication of three state investigations into clerical crimes and church over ups in Ireland. The Pope has seen all three of these reports.

And yet, disgracefully, he used his letter and this issue to attack one of his favourite targets, secularisation. We are asked to believe that the secularisation of Irish society led to abuse and cover up. In fact, it is the secularisation of society that finally led to the exposure of the crimes of the church.

The most horrific abuse was perpetrated, not in a secularised Ireland, but at a time when Irish society was dominated, socially and politically, by the Catholic Church. That the Pope appears to have wilfully ignored this established fact is a blatant and disgraceful deceit.

Some have reported that the Pope issued a heartfelt apology to victims of abuse. In fact, the word 'sorry' appeared just once in a letter running to almost 4,700 words.

The Pope said he was "truly sorry" that victims had suffered. But an expression of sorrow is not the same as an acceptance of responsibility. The letter does go some way to express remorse. But why is it impossible for this Vicar of Christ on earth to name truth in simple, unambiguous terms? Is that really too much to ask?

The Pope's letter has been described as "unprecedented" and an important step forward by the Vatican in dealing with clerical child sexual abuse. It is neither. Just consider an earlier Papal decree addressing the issue of catholic clergy abusing children.

In his papal order Horrendum, Pope Pius V said that priests who abused children were to be stripped of the priesthood, deprived of all income and privileges and handed over to the civil authorities.

Pretty strong stuff, especially when one considers that it was issued in 1568. And far stronger than anything the current Pope was able to muster in his letter. Strip away some worthy and welcome sentiments, consider the issues ignored and all that remains is a constant concern for the preservation of the institutional church – and little real concern for the safety of children.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/colm-ogorman-papal-letter-was-a-disgraceful-deceit-1925049.html

Nerin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

By whom ?

We now know that complaints about Carney were diverted away from the Irish criminal justice system to Bishop James Kavanagh, a man described by the Murphy Report as someone with "a soft spot for Carney".
Kavanagh did what he could to protect Carney from the law to avoid scandal for the Church.
One conscientious policeman, praised in the Murphy Report, did investigate complaints and they came to court. But the press were kept away as Carney pleaded guilty to two counts of indecent assault and got probation.

BBC

I may have my policemen mixed up

underclass

The spin in that article is unreal "the press were kept away" (the implication being it was the local clergyman who somehow ordered it).

It must never have entered the writer's head that this might be to protect the victim. I'm sure the reporters were only too happy to oblige in this matter of protecting abuse victims. But no, it was the Evil Catholic Church who tried to keep everything secret: just like in the Da Vinci Code.

Biggins

underclass wrote: »

The spin in that article is unreal "the press were kept away" (the implication being it was the local clergyman who somehow ordered it).

It must never have entered the writer's head that this might be to protect the victim. I'm sure the reporters were only too happy to oblige in this matter of protecting abuse victims. But no, it was the Evil Catholic Church who tried to keep everything secret: just like in the Da Vinci Code.

Honestly, I'm beginning to genuinely scratch my head over some of the "out there" stuff your coming out with.
I believe you have a strong faith and thats to be respected, but some of the stuff your coming out with is out there with the faeries.

That article is just one of many, many many saying the same thing in different words and you know they are not all "militant atheists" as another has claimed or just out to "knock" the church for the sake of it.
There is genuine disgust at this yet another wasted opportunity for things to start being set right.
Instead what the Irish public got is more PR spin, convenient and deliberate side-tracking and other methods of just covering their asses - as long as it don't involve actual money or doing something besides telling us all to pray or repent!

You might to decide to knock that one article because you disagree with it - and that is your right - but again, there are many, many to replace it - all saying nearly the same thing!
Sooner or later, if your actually bothered to see/read them - the message that is clear to all but a blind man, so far that they are ALL stating, is staring you/Rome in the face - and cannot nor should not be ignored.
It is a message/protest that the pope and his steadfast "living in the past ways" clan has wantonly missed. A demand for change. PROPER change and what the public is saying is that and more - but it seems they/you don't want to hear it - yet again!!!

The people have had enough of the same crap over again and again.
Brady must go. (No. we haven't forgotten about him with this latest stunt to also side-track the public)
The lies must end, the convenient omissions must end and telling us to all go back to our knees for its all our fault for what their perverts did - just don't cut it.
The public isn't swallowing that bullschite any more - and nor should they have to!

If Rome wants to know why the Catholic religion is failing, all they have to do in Rome is look in the mirror for their answer.

The Raven.

dan_d wrote: »

During all of this, I have to wonder why they are no other members of our society being called to book for these crimes.

They are, but this thread is about the Pope’s letter, which concerns the abuse of children by the clergy of the Catholic Church.

Firstly, the gardai and the the public were hand in hand with the church on this. There are numerous intertwined reasons, mainly relating to the standing of the church in Ireland at the time. Yet for some reason, the question is not being asked of the gardai, of the health/social services at the time, who put children in these schools and homes run by clergy, and turned a blind eye.

I don’t know about the Gardai, but I agree with most of what you say here. However, to say that ‘the public were hand in hand with the church on this’ is a bit of a sweeping statement. There would have been some members of the public involved, or were aware of it, but let’s not forget that most, if not all, of the clerical abuse took place behind closed doors, and victims were too terrified and embarrassed to report it. When they did report it, it was often to more senior members of the clergy who covered it up and protected the abusers. Members of the laity who refused to believe it, or ignored it, are certainly also at fault.

What happened was absolutely appalling. Yet all fingers point squarely at the church - probably because such a large number of people in our society want us to all think that the church is a monster.

That is unfair. Any person with a modicum of integrity and social conscience would be acutely aware of the fact that the injury and injustice suffered by the victims of clerical abuse and depravity, and the unscrupulous strategy of concealment of the crimes within the church, is nothing short of monstrousness. That doesn’t mean that they are not appalled by similar crimes outside the church. The main difference is that the Catholic Church established itself universally as a model of holiness and morality, and holds a relentless position of power and influence, particularly in the education of children.

But it is wearing very thin listening to the endless criticism by people who, although they don't subscribe or profess to be a member, certainly have plenty to say about my religion.

Perish the thought that anyone might ask the people of modern day Ireland and the modern day world to think of somebody other than themselves for a while.

These two statements contradict each other.

The Catholicism is a global religion. Everyone is entitled to discuss it. Whether or not one is a member is irrelevant.

The only people who have the real say here are those who have suffered. They are the judge of the Pope's letter.

This would seem to suggest that nobody else should voice an opinion on the matter. I doubt if ‘those who have suffered’ would thank us for that. They need all the support they can get. They have been denied it for too long.

thebaldsoprano

The Raven. wrote: »

I then searched for other references and found very little so far

Surprisingly, Canon law is now open for the public to study. Recent graduates of the postgrad diploma in Miltown have included one Mary McAleese. The weight attached to it by the RCC is scary though, along with their culture of secrecy.

http://www.milltown-institute.ie/hdip_canon_law.html

Given that it's now fairly clear that the cover up of abuse is a function of the RCC rather than being solely an Irish problem, I think it should be disbanded and treated as a criminal organisation. Unless of course they were to hand over all files and evidence to state authorities tomorrow, which I somehow doubt will happen.

The Raven.

Nerin wrote: »

BBC

I may have my policemen mixed up

Thanks for that video, Nerin. I have watched it twice. It's just so hard to believe that nothing is being done about this priest. It also looks bleak for the prosecutions of priests listed in the Murphy Report

It is absolutely appalling. In the Irish courts Carney, a 'compulsive paedophile', got probation for two counts of 'indecent assault', yet six families were paid compensation by the Church. Then in 1992 the Church paid him £30,000 to get rid of him.

Ever since then he has been walking around free to abuse again, and neither the authorities in Scotland nor the Canary Islands have been warned about him, and he is not on the sex offenders list.

Pressure should be brought on this government to do something about it.

Irlandese

Yes, Raven and others, you are right to be worried about the apparent but quite illegal primacy of Canon law over Irish law, as evidenced by the comments of the Taoiseach when he was asked to comment about the latest revelations about bishops covering up abuse cases and not following state law by reporting crimes to the gardai that were reported to them in their official capacities as governors of schools and various institutions. Cowen confirmed that we live in a theocracy, rather than a democracy when he stated in so many words that the state should stay out of church matters and he did not see the need for legal action by gardai, despite clear evidence of cover-ups by named bishops of the rape of named children by named priests.
We should all be up in arms about this denial of our legal rights, the denial of our rights to a legal and active government by the present Taoiseach and the conferring of imunity from any prosecution under our laws to bishops and priests involved in raping Irish children or covering up for the rapists and refusing to assist the gardai in their investigations. Are we really going to continue to stand for this? Oh, sorry, stupid me. We still have lots of sheep-like and immoral people like some of the audience at Cardinal Brady's disgraceful spinning of the truth on his role in protecting paedofile priests recently at his big mass in Armagh. Jesus, what a country !

mike65

The Pope has another letter to ber far more concened about

http://www.aolnews.com/article/pope-allegedly-knew-about-wisc-pedophile-priest/19414010

Anyone else watch Newsnight on BBC2?