Rowing goals

Tim Robbins

Hi,
I have a broken toe so doing some rowing work in the gym to keep fit
I am also doing some bike work).

I was wondering what is a good goal to set myself. First time I did 5K in about 25 mins and second time did 6K in 30 Mins. I have the setting at 10.

I was thinking now of increasing the distance to 7K.

Any tips appreciated?

Colm_OReilly

Rowing is awesome.

The settings aren't difficulty levels, they're akin to gears on a bike. Some people row in a stiffer gear, others in a lighter gear. Plus 10 on one machine won't equate to 10 on another, you've got to look at the drag factor, which can be found out through the monitor. Dirt on the flywheel effects this, but rowers will row about 125-140 on the drag factor, as this is akin to the resistance water would provide.

Now, for a workout. Row 3 500m flat out efforts, resting about 5-10 minutes between them. Done correctly, it'll completely smoke you.

TommyKnocker

Hi Tim

Comiserations on the broken toe

I also like to do HIIT on the rower just to mix things up a bit.

So I do 1 minute as hard as I can (circa 38 spm) followed by 1 minutes of really easy rowing (circa 20 spm) to catch my breath. And do 10 work sets with 10 rest periods, with a 5 minute warm up and cool down, giving a 30 minute workout in total.

Or you can make it distance and go for 200m-250m followed by a rest of equal distance.

I find the time flys by doing this and the workout is over before you know it


Best Regards,

M

Parsley

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Rowing is awesome.

The settings aren't difficulty levels, they're akin to gears on a bike. Some people row in a stiffer gear, others in a lighter gear. Plus 10 on one machine won't equate to 10 on another, you've got to look at the drag factor, which can be found out through the monitor. Dirt on the flywheel effects this, but rowers will row about 125-140 on the drag factor, as this is akin to the resistance water would provide.

Now, for a workout. Row 3 500m flat out efforts, resting about 5-10 minutes between them. Done correctly, it'll completely smoke you.

Good call with the drag factor, though the standards for testing are 120 for lightweight men (<72.5kg) and 130 for heavyweight (>72.5kg). Nothing wrong with going a bit heavier if you feel like extra punishment tho

Intervals of 500 metres is a great call too. maybe as you get better, take less rest (i usually do 2-3 mins) and maybe build up to doing sets of 5. Take your time at progressing though, the rowing machine is a tough bastard.

A good warm-up is the stroke build up, first sitting right back, legs flat straight, and just with your arms, then bring in swinging the back over still keeping your legs flat and straight, then slowly adding to the length you take on the slide, until you're at full length.

d'Oracle

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Hi,
I have a broken toe so doing some rowing work in the gym to keep fit
I am also doing some bike work).

I was wondering what is a good goal to set myself. First time I did 5K in about 25 mins and second time did 6K in 30 Mins. I have the setting at 10.

I was thinking now of increasing the distance to 7K.

Any tips appreciated?

Are you training to keep in shape for the reffing?

The Guvnor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Hi,
I have a broken toe so doing some rowing work in the gym to keep fit
I am also doing some bike work).

I was wondering what is a good goal to set myself. First time I did 5K in about 25 mins and second time did 6K in 30 Mins. I have the setting at 10.

I was thinking now of increasing the distance to 7K.

Any tips appreciated?

25 mins for 5k is 200m a minute or 2m30 per 500m.

If it was me I would change it up a bit - do mainly 30 minute pieces on the erg and get someone to watch your technique, someone who knows something about rowing.

Once a week if you like you could do a 5k piece to see if you are improving and leave it at that.

Concept2.co.uk have the online rankings where you can guage your progress against the world's best.

There is also an O'neills 4 minute fitness test which to be very frank is quite ambitious. The below average meters for a 20-29 year old is well above 2m30 pace!

Setting at 10 suggests your technique needs work. The optimum setting is categorically between 3 and 4. 99.99% of all world best times are set using this setting.
I do know about the drag coefficeint but all things being equal between 3-4 is where it's at. I've never seen Pinsent or Cracknell worry about the drag! :-)


Best of luck with it.

The Guvnor

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Rowing is awesome.

Now, for a workout. Row 3 500m flat out efforts, resting about 5-10 minutes between them. Done correctly, it'll completely smoke you.

More like 2minutes active recovery Colm. 5-10 is very generous! For the OP though hard sprints will serve little purpose at this stage IMO.

Tim Robbins

d'Oracle wrote: »

Are you training to keep in shape for the reffing?

Well it's for the reffing really. I have some really good drills for that but they all require being able to run / sprint which isn't possible right now.

Tim Robbins

The Guvnor wrote: »

25 mins for 5k is 200m a minute or 2m30 per 500m.

If it was me I would change it up a bit - do mainly 30 minute pieces on the erg and get someone to watch your technique, someone who knows something about rowing.

Once a week if you like you could do a 5k piece to see if you are improving and leave it at that.

Concept2.co.uk have the online rankings where you can guage your progress against the world's best.

There is also an O'neills 4 minute fitness test which to be very frank is quite ambitious. The below average meters for a 20-29 year old is well above 2m30 pace!

Setting at 10 suggests your technique needs work. The optimum setting is categorically between 3 and 4. 99.99% of all world best times are set using this setting.
I do know about the drag coefficeint but all things being equal between 3-4 is where it's at. I've never seen Pinsent or Cracknell worry about the drag! :-)


Best of luck with it.

I haven't a clue about technique. Does this make much of a difference?

Main thing is I keep up some fitness while injured. I won't be entering any body building competitions any time soon :-)

Cheers.

d'Oracle

I ask about the reffing as it may help some of the posters get a better idea of what you might need to do.

I'd say technique makes a big difference, I know it made a difference to my rowing.
For me, its the difference between a tight sore back and a good workout.
(Which may be more just me, but its good to do things right anyway.)

http://www.concept2.com/us/training/technique.asp

Tim Robbins

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Rowing is awesome.

The settings aren't difficulty levels, they're akin to gears on a bike. Some people row in a stiffer gear, others in a lighter gear. Plus 10 on one machine won't equate to 10 on another, you've got to look at the drag factor, which can be found out through the monitor. Dirt on the flywheel effects this, but rowers will row about 125-140 on the drag factor, as this is akin to the resistance water would provide.

Now, for a workout. Row 3 500m flat out efforts, resting about 5-10 minutes between them. Done correctly, it'll completely smoke you.

Did 10 * 500 m flat at at level 3.
1 minute breaks. Each 500m took about 2minutes 25 seconds.
Hard to tell actually.

Then did 23km on the bike and some machines.

Can wait until this bloody toe is alright.

Barry.Oglesby

My mate Damian's blog: http://informedtraining.wordpress.com/ he was on the C2 website for a while with one of the top ten 500m scores. The blog itself is well worth reading for his own training ideas, but he also has some good links on the site plus he'll answer any questions from interested parties.

The Guvnor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I haven't a clue about technique. Does this make much of a difference?
Cheers.

Technique is everything in rowing. I can categorically say that 99% of the population incl. gym instructors have not got a clue what they are doing.

To put your split times in perspective:

Based on the O'Neill 4 minute fitness test a man aged between 19-29 and weighing 75kg or more needs to average 2m per 500m to be considered BELOW AVERAGE!

I did say this test was ambitious!:)

When I was rowing - I would expect for example to do 1m40-1m44 or so on the erg whilst rating 20-24 strokes per minute.

Likewise for yourself with good technique you should be able to maintain the splits you are currently doing but reduce your stroke rate.

A broken toe will probably affect your rowing somewhat. I am sure somewhere on www.concept2.co.uk they have some instructions of a video nature.

JUst stick at it and it will come but it does take a bit of patience.!:)

The Guvnor

Just for the record this O'Neills fitness test needs you to hit 1m33 for 4 mins to be considered excellent if 19-29 and 75kg+.

Insane really and kudos to anyone who hit 1m33 for 4 mins!

TommyKnocker

Hi All

I found this video on YouTube previously when I was looking for information on rowing technique. Although I am no expert I thought this video broke the stroke down really well.

M

The Guvnor

That's a good video!

Tim Robbins

The Guvnor wrote: »

To put your split times in perspective:

Based on the O'Neill 4 minute fitness test a man aged between 19-29 and weighing 75kg or more needs to average 2m per 500m to be considered BELOW AVERAGE!

I did say this test was ambitious!:)

Went again tonight. Did 3 * 500m as fast as I could. Wow it was tough. I was coming in at about 2 mins and 5 seconds each time.

Was absolutely nackered afterwards.

mushykeogh

used to do this with a south african rower, found it pretty tasty, warm up for 10 mins, then;
3mins easy pace
2 mins fast
1 minute flat out, then repeat until 60 minutes is reached, for me easy pace was about 2.15 mins/500m, fast was 2.00min/500m, and for the balls to the wall minute i used to get to 1.46mins/500m, but you can base it on your own levels.

The Guvnor

I hate the machine - bike is better for your ego.

2m05 is getting there - and as you now know 500m is a long way when you are knackered!:D

A poem about the erg by anonymous:

The Erg

In the basement

Cold and dark

Like a winter night,

Like the animal's lair

.

The machine

The measure of my soul

When the ice lies heavy

On the water

.

Most days,

Just the test of my will

To go on, to endure

To build for the Spring, yet dormant

.

Some days,

Close my eyes

Feel the water,the warmth

The power, the grace

.

Some days,

Torture my body

The splits will not fall

The body is weak, lethargic

.

No matter

The machine cares not

Frustration, rage, pleading

Boil, burn me all over

.

Some days,

My power, my strength, my will

Reign supreme

My body, the numbers, do my bidding

.

The animal inside,

Unleashed, raging, triumphant

Seeking to destroy, annihilate

The machine

d'Oracle

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Went again tonight. Did 3 * 500m as fast as I could. Wow it was tough. I was coming in at about 2 mins and 5 seconds each time.

Was absolutely nackered afterwards.

S'good craic though, isn't it?

Tim Robbins

d'Oracle wrote: »

S'good craic though, isn't it?

Yeah, definetely not boring! I am wondering is it more a fitness test though than something that will develop my fitness?

I went on the cross trainer and bike afterwards but I was so nackerd, I ddidn't do much.

Cross trainer: 4.33KM in 30 mins. Level 13.
Bike: 10KM in 30 mins. Level 10.

I can't believe I was so bad on the bike. On Tuesday, I did 23KM in 36 mins. I wonder was the bike set in miles or something....

Malari

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Went again tonight. Did 3 * 500m as fast as I could. Wow it was tough. I was coming in at about 2 mins and 5 seconds each time.

Was absolutely nackered afterwards.

What stroke rate are you doing? How many strokes a minute? I always found if you start slow, rating about 22-24, it's easier to build up strength in the stroke while thinking about each part of the stroke. Then try to keep that strength contant while you quicken the pace. Makes it easier to keep it under that 2 minute split barrier when you have the technique right.

But I wouldn't even worry too much about that. If you did 3 x 500 at a slow rate but keeping the split low it'll probably do more for you than going hell for leather if you are unsure of the technique.

d'Oracle

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah, definetely not boring! I am wondering is it more a fitness test though than something that will develop my fitness?

I went on the cross trainer and bike afterwards but I was so nackerd, I ddidn't do much.

Cross trainer: 4.33KM in 30 mins. Level 13.
Bike: 10KM in 30 mins. Level 10.

I can't believe I was so bad on the bike. On Tuesday, I did 23KM in 36 mins. I wonder was the bike set in miles or something....

I'm not gonna pretend to know anything about the science. But if you record your times and then beat them, then surely you must be getting fitter?

I mean going at medium pace on a bike is good and all, but is it going to help you catch up when one of the backs breaks the line in his own half and gets stopped 5m out by the fullback? You don't jog to the ruck do you?

Tim Robbins

Malari wrote: »

What stroke rate are you doing? How many strokes a minute? I always found if you start slow, rating about 22-24, it's easier to build up strength in the stroke while thinking about each part of the stroke. Then try to keep that strength contant while you quicken the pace. Makes it easier to keep it under that 2 minute split barrier when you have the technique right.

But I wouldn't even worry too much about that. If you did 3 x 500 at a slow rate but keeping the split low it'll probably do more for you than going hell for leather if you are unsure of the technique.

I watch the videos so do my best to get technique right. I don't knw about stroke rate not sure how to read that from the machine.

When you say: "split low" what does it mean?

What I think is interesting is on Tuesday I did 10 * 500M. But they were about 2.25. By decreasing time by 20 seconds, I was busted after doing 3 * 500.

Tim Robbins

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm not gonna pretend to know anything about the science. But if you record your times and then beat them, then surely you must be getting fitter?

I mean going at medium pace on a bike is good and all, but is it going to help you catch up when one of the backs breaks the line in his own half and gets stopped 5m out by the fullback? You don't jog to the ruck do you?

I think fitness for reffing is about sprinting and recovery as you point out. But a bit of stamina helps. I think the bike is good for two reasons. It can help the leg muscles and mean your work on the muscles around your knees, calves and hamstrings. There's no point sprinting to every ruck and then pulling a hamstring.

The other reason is it's good for stamina. You work on your fitness without any impact / injury to bones.

I wouldn't use the bike as your primary source to get fit but it's good to supplement it. Also me tow is busted so I can't sprint train right now.

Malari

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I watch the videos so do my best to get technique right. I don't knw about stroke rate not sure how to read that from the machine.

When you say: "split low" what does it mean?

Sorry, split is the average time you do for 500m. I would put that on the display and you can see how each stroke changes it. So a 2 minute per 500m is a lower split that 2.25 minutes per 500m.

Stroke rate on a Concept 2 is usually displayed in the upper right corner. It's a whole number, You'll see it change if you fly up and down the machine, or go much more slowly.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What I think is interesting is on Tuesday I did 10 * 500M. But they were about 2.25. By decreasing time by 20 seconds, I was busted after doing 3 * 500.

Yeah, but it's a 20 second average and that's a big difference! It's a minute 20 seconds over 2km, which is the normal Erg test.

As for technique, the biggest thing is to remember to keep your knees locked straight until after you lean forward with your arms out on the recovery.

Tim Robbins

Folks, what setting should I have the rower on between 1 - 10, if I am doing the 3 * 500M thing?

Thanks.

Malari

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Folks, what setting should I have the rower on between 1 - 10, if I am doing the 3 * 500M thing?

Thanks.

I wouldn't put it any higher than 7-8. No point in putting too much strain on your back. Use the thighs, Luke

TommyKnocker

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Folks, what setting should I have the rower on between 1 - 10, if I am doing the 3 * 500M thing?

Thanks.

I'm no expert and not a rower, I just like using the CII and nearly all the information I read on using the CII correctly advised that the setting should be between 3 and 5.

I usually set it between 4 and 5.


BEst Regards,

M

The Guvnor

3 1/2 is optimal imo.

Parsley

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Folks, what setting should I have the rower on between 1 - 10, if I am doing the 3 * 500M thing?

Thanks.

on the menu, find the option to "display drag factor". row a few strokes, then adjust the slider on the side until the number on the screen is around 120-130.

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Went again tonight. Did 3 * 500m as fast as I could. Wow it was tough. I was coming in at about 2 mins and 5 seconds each time.

Was absolutely nackered afterwards.

Did this again on Saturday - was averaging about 2.02 seconds.
Then again today on Sunday - did first two in 1.59 and then the last one in 2.06.

Wow this really nackers you. I have two question for the rowing experts:

1. What should my stroke rate be? At the moment it's about 33 per minute.
2. Is this going to get me fit? It seems more of a fitness test than something that will get you fit.

Cheers.

Malari

The fitness test for rowers is a 2000m erg usually So if you are taking a minute or two break between each 500m your split should be at least the same as your average split for the 2km test. I wouldn't be doing the 500m pieces every day, maybe once a week. Rating 33 is quite high, but they are short bursts of energy so you should be able to sustain it. Lower it to 28-30 if it's too much.

I think you should at least be able to do 2 minutes or under per 500m, assuming you are already quite fit? It will definitely improve fitness combined with other training. I used to do the 500m pieces coming up to the end of a season's training. Up to that, longer 20 minute and hour long sessions. If you are aiming to improve your sprint fitness, the 500m are good I'd say.

Parsley

Tim Robbins wrote: »

1. What should my stroke rate be? At the moment it's about 33 per minute.
2. Is this going to get me fit? It seems more of a fitness test than something that will get you fit.

Cheers.

1. Stroke rate should be whatever you can manage without your proper technique breaking down. if you rate too high, and you lose your form, not only will it affect how effectively you row but you it can also lead to injury.

2. That's a tricky sort of question, as 'fitness' means different things to different people. 500m pieces will increase your VO2 max, or the amount of oxygen your lungs can take up and use for combustion of fuel in your muscles. This is a good definition of fitness in most people's books so i suppose the answer is just yes, it will get you fit. Every so often though i'd say go for the odd longer piece, say 2k or 3k, but don't go as hard as for the 500m pieces.

The Guvnor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Did this again on Saturday - was averaging about 2.02 seconds.
Then again today on Sunday - did first two in 1.59 and then the last one in 2.06.

Wow this really nackers you. I have two question for the rowing experts:

1. What should my stroke rate be? At the moment it's about 33 per minute.
2. Is this going to get me fit? It seems more of a fitness test than something that will get you fit.

Cheers.

As someone else may have said doing this every session is madness mate - way too demanding and in no time at all you will come to loathe the machine.

Your stroke rate if one was a rower and doing 2m05 splits one could expect anywhere from 16-22 strokes per minute.

The idea is that your actual stroke the part where you drive back is always the same and the only change is the speed of the recovery (bit going forward) - then in theory the only way one gets a lower split is by doing more of the EXACT same stroke per minute.

The reality is very different as we all know!:D

For yourself I would try and rate no more than 26 strokes per minute and focus on the drive, solid leg drive, sharp finish and take your time on the recovery.

Tim Robbins

The Guvnor wrote: »

As someone else may have said doing this every session is madness mate - way too demanding and in no time at all you will come to loathe the machine.

Your stroke rate if one was a rower and doing 2m05 splits one could expect anywhere from 16-22 strokes per minute.

Mine is way too high then.

The idea is that your actual stroke the part where you drive back is always the same and the only change is the speed of the recovery (bit going forward) - then in theory the only way one gets a lower split is by doing more of the EXACT same stroke per minute.

The reality is very different as we all know!:D

For yourself I would try and rate no more than 26 strokes per minute and focus on the drive, solid leg drive, sharp finish and take your time on the recovery.

I think at 26 strokes I'll be really slow. What do you mean when you say things like solid leg drive? And sharp finish?

The Guvnor

In a nutshell what I mean is focus on the bit where you drive/push back and then take your time moving forward to do the next stroke.

LightningBolt

I dropped the rower down the other day to 4. Usually go around the 8 mark. Hard to explain but it was much tougher and I don't know why. I was on for a sub 7min but the speed I went at caught me out and I ended up having to stop with 400m to go for half a minute. Felt like I was gliding along with no effort, before I'd concentrate on driving back with legs and then pulling with the arms whereas yesterday it felt like I was on a spinning bike on free spin if that makes sense.

All I know is the machine is forged in the depths of hell and only an insane person actually enjoys using it for fitness work:)

Need to break 7mins by the end of this month so here's hoping!

edit: by the way don't want to derail your thread Tim just looking for a bit of an explanation if possible! Keep going and you might get to ref a final this year:)

Tim Robbins

LightningBolt wrote: »

I dropped the rower down the other day to 4. Usually go around the 8 mark. Hard to explain but it was much tougher and I don't know why. I was on for a sub 7min but the speed I went at caught me out and I ended up having to stop with 400m to go for half a minute. Felt like I was gliding along with no effort, before I'd concentrate on driving back with legs and then pulling with the arms whereas yesterday it felt like I was on a spinning bike on free spin if that makes sense.

All I know is the machine is forged in the depths of hell and only an insane person actually enjoys using it for fitness work:)

Need to break 7mins by the end of this month so here's hoping!

edit: by the way don't want to derail your thread Tim just looking for a bit of an explanation if possible! Keep going and you might get to ref a final this year:)

What distance are you aiming for in 7 mins?

Ciaran500

Spurred on by this thread I had a go at rower this evening in the gym, warmed up then found the 500m - 1min rest exercise and gave it a go. Got a 1:44, 1:47 then a complete failure. I couldn't go on to complete a third set. I was shaking after it sitting in the locker room trying to get changed. This thing was definitely forged in hell and now I can't wait to get back to it. Going to try and do it twice a week from now on.

What are the difficulty settings people are talking about? I adjusted the fan for a drag fact of 127 but didn't see any other adjustments.

The Guvnor

Just set it at 3.5 - blue lever on the RHS - forget the drag imo.

Put it another way - 3.5 is optimal and if this does not correspond with the correct 'drag' then the machine you are on needs a service!

The Guvnor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What distance are you aiming for in 7 mins?

2000m and he needs to do 1m45 or less all the time.

Ciaran500

The Guvnor wrote: »

Just set it at 3.5 - blue lever on the RHS - forget the drag imo.

Put it another way - 3.5 is optimal and if this does not correspond with the correct 'drag' then the machine you are on needs a service!

Ok, thats the one I was changing. Set it about in the middle but didn't see any reading to show what it was at.

LightningBolt

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What distance are you aiming for in 7 mins?

2k.

The Guvnor

I like this video. I believe the guys are averaging about 1m26 ish for the 2000m.

This is flat out and their stroke rates probably averaged 30 for the 5m45seconds.

Cracknells technique (guy on right as you look at it) is very good.

The Guvnor

A fast 500m with rubbish technique - everything is wrong here but still a 1m18.2!:D

On the other hand this is the world record overall of 1m14.4 and his technique is far better, you can see how he does not look rushed despite rating as high as 50 (averaging about 40).

The Guvnor

I dislike this thread because as a direct result of it, I fear I may do a 30 minute session on the erg today and I know in advance I shall not enjoy it!:D

The Guvnor

Well I did the 30mins and I was right I did not like it.

If this makes any sense to you guys - I was consciously saying take it easy and keep at a level under 2m00 per 500m.

I did, I ended up doing 7669m / 1m57.3 / 22 strokes per min average.

I say I was taking it easy which is not to say I could have taken it hard.:D The above was easy but hard at the same time and if I say for example had decided to do 1m55 all the way I am doubtful if I would have finished the 30mins.

Mental note: bike is better for the ego and a bit easier!

Tim Robbins

The Guvnor wrote: »

Well I did the 30mins and I was right I did not like it.

If this makes any sense to you guys - I was consciously saying take it easy and keep at a level under 2m00 per 500m.

I did, I ended up doing 7669m / 1m57.3 / 22 strokes per min average.

I say I was taking it easy which is not to say I could have taken it hard.:D The above was easy but hard at the same time and if I say for example had decided to do 1m55 all the way I am doubtful if I would have finished the 30mins.

Mental note: bike is better for the ego and a bit easier!

Did 30 mins yesterday and did 6,200 M. Stroke average was about 25.
About 2.30 per 500 M.

You must have a better technique or much stronger upper body...

The Guvnor

Actually 6200m in 30mins is 2m25 pace.

Your question is the correct one and highlights the flaw in your view of rowing at the same time.

Rowing has bugger all to do with upper body strength. It is conservatively 80% legs.

I am certain I have better technique as I used to row. To put in perspective my distance, it's not great. I've done over a 1000m more in the past for 30 mins.

Just give it some time mate and it will get better.

A nice target for you would be to get comfortable doing the 2m25 for 30 mins and then slowly it'll just get better and in no time you will be cracking 7000m and eventually 7500m.

For a man - 7500m would be considered pretty decent.
8000m is considered not that bad for a novice rower.

If you notice though you did the 30mins at much the same pace as your first 500m so something is working well for you!:)

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Did 30 mins yesterday and did 6,200 M. Stroke average was about 25.
About 2.30 per 500 M.

You must have a better technique or much stronger upper body...

Back again today did the ergo 4 * 500M test thing. Averaged 1.57, 1.58. Can't remember. Stroke rate around 31.

So does this mean I'm fit? :-)

How's everyone else doing?