Another Hill Climb? Cruagh - March 30th

levitronix

Whether its anaraerobic or aerobic your face should show it all, mouth open dribbling and sweating on your bars

Nietzschean

How did poor Tom end up being the marked man for this?

ROK ON

Nietzschean wrote: »

How did poor Tom end up being the marked man for this?

Lumen just dont like being second first loser.

The tax man

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Does anyone fancy a trip out here sometime tomorrow to have a look???

What time are you thinking of Dirk?

DirkVoodoo

The tax man wrote: »

What time are you thinking of Dirk?

Either very early or later in the afternoon. Have to run a few errands in town around lunch time.

I'm thinking either 9am or 4pm, not sure which though.

The tax man

Sounds good. Either time suits me so I'll leave it up to you to choose.

DirkVoodoo

Cool, 9am then? Won't be too long, I reckon a slow spin up to get an idea of the route, terrain, wind, etc. Then maybe 1 or 2 trial runs to work out strategy and gearing?? Should be done in under 2 hours.

The tax man

9am good with me. I know every single inch of the road and what parts kill me.
Want to meet at the roundabout at the end of Taylors Lane. Map.

DirkVoodoo

The tax man wrote: »

9am good with me. I know every single inch of the road and what parts kill me.
Want to meet at the roundabout at the end of Taylors Lane. Map.

Sounds good, see you then!

ryan_sherlock

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Cool, 9am then? Won't be too long, I reckon a slow spin up to get an idea of the route, terrain, wind, etc. Then maybe 1 or 2 trial runs to work out strategy and gearing?? Should be done in under 2 hours.

I know the climb well so that helps - but my strategy... full gas from the start Push hardest when it is hardest to push.

Lumen

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

I know the climb well so that helps - but my strategy... full gas from the start Push hardest when it is hardest to push.

Yeah, but you only have to push for 15 minutes. :pac:

Billy Whizz

Any effort longer than 70 seconds is aerobic .

DirkVoodoo

Well that was fun, thanks to Tax man for coming out and providing company and a start finish point.

Definitely went too hard at the start, I was beginning to grind and wondered had I hit the wall as only 10-40* minutes previously I had been spinning away next to Tax Man on our "scouting run". I looked down and saw I never shifted the front down so I was running 50-25, not a good start and my poor chain!

It was hard to settle into a rhythm with the undulating nature of the course, but I think that aside from the hot start I was not pushing hard enough on the flatter sections and the last bit with the headwind after the viewing point I really should have gone "balls to the wall". Passed a guy there who shouted "Good man!" at me, and again with "Good man, that's the way to do it!" when he passed me lying on the side of the road.

I felt ok at the end, average HR was 175 which isn't "at the limit" but I forgot my inhaler and the cold air was making me wheeze a lot at the end. Not an excuse, but just I don't think legs or heart are the limiting factor for me on this, just my crappy lungs. Cooled down almost instantly with the breeze up there, would be nice to have a car at the end with jackets as I was warm enough on the ascent.

Went home via Johnny Foxes and Carrickmines retail park, was motoring and managed to power up the last little hill to carrickmines cross which means I had something in reserve so will have to push harder on the day!

Oh, the headwind was quite light today.

*Ha, no free hints!

The tax man

Fun? You call that fun? God damn hill nearly cost me my breakfast.
The pace on the first ascent was a nice tempo,not too hard,keeping the legs and lungs just on the side of happy.

Second time up was more attack mode.Quickly found the legs had nothing and weren't really going to recover much on the easy bit between the first hairpin and Cruagh entrance.I just spun like mad all the way up to the viewpoint noting that my time wasn't much faster than the easier ascent,only 20 odd seconds.Made up some time on the stretch from the viewpoint up towards the finish.

I won't be in the running,just making up the numbers on the day.:)

(Just looking at the map,I got the finish line slightly wrong. Sorry Dirk.:o)

Lumen

Dirk, the only slightly useful bit of information in that lovely essay is how long it took you, and that's the bit you left out!

DirkVoodoo

Lumen wrote: »

Dirk, the only slightly useful bit of information in that lovely essay is how long it took you, and that's the bit you left out!

I thought you liked my stories? Telling you numbers is a bad idea, I want to keep you guessing and running simulations in your head. My time to the incorrect finish line was about average, I reckon with some better pacing and really pushing it after the viewpoint I could have a good time, certainly won't be upsetting any of the climbers but I won't embarrass myself either

ryan_sherlock

Next time I'm up that climb I'll take some pictures so that I can show people where the finish is. Distance is correct but a visual clue is nice...

levitronix

I think i might my give the hill a recci tomorrow on the way home after my spin, i would of thought to get up it fast youd have to kick on every bend especially where the surface is bad, because when i train on it and i wana drop someone thats wheres i kick

pmg001

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

My time would be depended on the wind at the top - if it is still, sometime around the 15 minute mark - for Mel, if she is racing hard around 18... If there is a headwind up there, add another minute or two.

I did this yesterday for the first time. Didn't time it but it definately wasn't anywhere near 15 minutes! That seems astonishingly fast to me!!
As a matter of interest what gear would you use for the majority of it, or is that classified information? I was in my smallest gear for pretty much the whole thing, whatever that is on a compact.

Chips Lovell

pmg001 wrote: »

That seems astonishingly fast to me!!

It is. Ryan came 3rd in the National Hill Climb Championships last year and 2nd the year before.

Beasty

Don't be put off coming along though - there will be some mere mortals doing it also:)

pmg001

el tonto wrote: »

It is. Ryan came 3rd in the National Hill Climb Championships last year and 2nd the year before.

Ah, so he's handy enough at the aul' cyclin' up hills then.
Interesting to think if thats the speed that the top level of domestic amateur cyclists do it at, what speed would the top pros do it in?
Do you reckon there would there be a massive improvement or is it too short a climb for the difference to be shown (short compared to Alpe d'Huez etc.) ?

Lumen

pmg001 wrote: »

Ah, so he's handy enough at the aul' cyclin' up hills then.
Interesting to think if thats the speed that the top level of domestic amateur cyclists do it at, what speed would the top pros do it in?
Do you reckon there would there be a massive improvement or is it too short a climb for the difference to be shown (short compared to Alpe d'Huez etc.) ?

Ryan typically climbs steeply at around 1500 VAM (vertical ascent metres, per hour), but a bit less for this climb because it's shallower. I am his official stalker btw.

Contador climbs at up to 1900 VAM.

godihatedehills

Lumen wrote: »

Ryan typically climbs steeply at around 1500 VAM (vertical ascent metres, per hour), but a bit less for this climb because it's shallower. I am his official stalker btw.

Contador climbs at up to 1900 VAM.

What would the average mere mortal climb at?

blorg

godihatedehills wrote: »

What would the average mere mortal climb at?

A bit slower.

Lumen

godihatedehills wrote: »

What would the average mere mortal climb at?

Looking at the data from the only slightly bumpy A4 race I've done (Newbridge), under 1000 VAM is normal.

My 3 Rock effort from last year was about 1060 VAM, although that had a short descent.

DirkVoodoo

So, anyone else tried this out? Care to share some numbers?

I haven't been out all week, thinking I might try this again tomorrow if anyone is about?

levitronix

I haven't been out all week, thinking I might try this again tomorrow if anyone is about?[/QUOTE]


:eek: i think your trying to bluff us !!! you ll fly up the hill like Ricardo Ricco used to do making mo-ped noises as he passes people but you wont be on EPO

DirkVoodoo

levitronix wrote: »

:eek: i think your trying to bluff us !!! you ll fly up the hill like Ricardo Ricco used to do making mo-ped noises as he passes people but you wont be on EPO

That would require some kind of tactical nous which I lack.

I'm still hoping the EPO arrives in time though.

Beasty

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

That would require some kind of tactical nous which I lack.

I'm still hoping the EPO arrives in time though.

Well you are the one who has tried it but refused to post your actual time. You're now asking everyone else to post theirs!

levitronix

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

That would require some kind of tactical nous which I lack.

I'm still hoping the EPO arrives in time though.

Chainreaction late again with the goodies !!

DirkVoodoo

Beasty wrote: »

Well you are the one who has tried it but refused to post your actual time. You're now asking everyone else to post theirs!

Ok, if it's worth posting tomorrow I'll stick it up. The first one we got the finish line wrong so I was only able to approximate a finish time based on average speed from the viewpoint. Plus I made a bit of a mess of the start and didn't go hard enough on the flatter sections.

Ryaner

I'll post mine so. However those who have done the climb know that the top is quite exposed and wind can affect times a whole lot.

Anyway I did a 26:15 on my winter/commuter bike back in February. Other attempts in Jan never finished due to ice.

Sunday gone I did a 21:04 on my new road bike.

Both runs were from the line on the bridge to the second yellow sign on the left at the top. 6.15km.

blorg

Ryaner wrote: »

Both runs were from the line on the bridge to the second yellow sign on the left at the top. 6.15km.

I think that's too short, get back out there and do it again.

DirkVoodoo

Nice one Ryaner. Right, I'll show my hand so. Hoping to improve on it tomorrow but I made this a while ago as part of my preparation trying to figure out where I went wrong. I'm pretty sure I wasn't going hard enough on the flat sections between the pineforest road section and the viewpoint. Not realising I was in the big ring for part of the start section made it tougher, also put a lot of strain on my back which I found hard to recover from. There was little wind (might need Tax Man to clear this up, didn't feel windy but I sure cooled down quick enough and was starting to shiver). I reckon my "time" to the actual finish line might have been around 19:34, going by average speed from the viewpoint. I looked down at the times as I crossed the Bridge (is it a bridge?) and turning at the viewpoint. Not a bad time, but it's not an actual time and just a guess unfortunately.



(Just hoping leaving it this late means Lumen won't be able to do too much training for it now )

EDIT: Resized.

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

(Just hoping leaving it this late means Lumen won't be able to do too much training for it now )

Thanks Dirk. Heading out at 7am to do some practice runs.

The tax man

Wind was fairly light that day Dirk. Possible head breeze rather than head wind.
Wind up towards the finish was stronger when we lost all tree cover.

levitronix

Think i ll just have to wing it and grind my way up it on the day

ryan_sherlock

I have attached three pictures of where the finish line is. There is a false flat section of about 500 meters before this but after this corner (you can see a mountain bike trail heading up on the left - good trail by the way) is the first time that you would actually start travelling down hill (about a -1% gradient).

VAMs... Contrador in the tour was up a 9% climb on perfect tarmac with a tailwind when he did the 1900VAM... But yeah, the PROs that are known for climbing can really really climb.

Gearing: for me, I don't think about it - will probably end up being in 39x21 or maybe 39x23 (if I'm in a spinny mood) for the first few k. Big ring and somewhere in the middle for the top. Gearing is no secret, you just have to put out the power.

Lumen

20:19 today for me, for the 5.98km distance quoted by Ryan.

My effort was a bit compromised by getting lost on the first attempt. Really. I took a left turn about halfway up rather than staying right. Realising my mistake too late, I carried on to the top of the (wrong) hill, completing 10 mins @ 299W. I have cycled this route before, but my brain doesn't work at 300W.

That first effort was useful for pacing. 300W felt a bit too hard, so I decided to wind it back a bit to about 285W.

I recorded three laps for the second attempt:

Lap 1: 10:03, 282W, HR 168bpm (175bpm for 95% of it).
Lap 2: 05:01, 277W, HR 175bpm.
Lap 3: 05:29, 277W, HR 175bpm (I overran by 80m@~20kph, so chopped 15s off this final lap).

I stayed in the saddle throughout.

There was a significant headwind on the upper section after the viewing point. This makes it very difficult to pace. Perhaps it's worth going a bit harder on the first half, where you're not fighting the wind, then just hanging on into the wind as it flattens out. Average power would be lower, but overall time probably better.

The other hill TTs I've done have gotten steeper at the top, which makes them easier as you can get out of the saddle and go all out for the last bit. That doesn't really work when the climb flattens out.

I reckon with fresh legs and the motivation from some competition I'd probably pace it at 300W and see what happens. Sub-20 seems doable.

Excuses: I'm having a fat day today. 68kg for most of this week but 69.5kg this morning. And I was carrying 500ml of drink, plus bottle. And a heavy front wheel.

Not sure whether I can make in on Tues, things looking a bit chaotic. Obviously my time today doesn't count. Just saying.

ROK ON

@Lumen.

My last time doing this is about 31% higher than yours. Interesingly, my weight is also about 31% heavier than you. Does this mean that we are putting out similar wattage, but your W/KG is far superior to mine?

Also, how did you feel at the top.
While I suffer on the climb, I tend to be in pretty good shape at the top - this indicates that I am not pushing anywhere near hard enough (which is not a surprise given that my I was working to keep my HR in the 170 zone).

Ryaner

Lumen wrote: »

20:19 today for me, for the 5.98km distance quoted by Ryan.

That first effort was useful for pacing. 300W felt a bit too hard, so I decided to wind it back a bit to about 285W.

I was going to ask what rockets you had on to do a time like that with that power output until

lumen wrote:

Excuses: I'm having a fat day today. 68kg for most of this week but 69.5kg this morning. And I was carrying 500ml of drink, plus bottle. And a heavy front wheel.

My time had an avg power of 332 Watts and was a minute slower. Maybe I should empty my bottles next time around...

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

My last time doing this is about 31% higher than yours. Interesingly, my weight is also about 31% heavier than you. Does this mean that we are putting out similar wattage, but your W/KG is far superior to mine?

I'm possibly putting out a few more watts as the faster you go the more drag you have to overcome, but should be pretty close. I've been doing a fair bit of high intensity stuff recently, which has made a huge difference to how fast I feel. I definitely have more anaerobic capacity, which is a blessing and a curse.

ROK ON wrote: »

Also, how did you feel at the top.

Fine, wheeled around and headed home. In retrospect, I always think I could have gone harder, except for Kippure last year, where I had to climb off the bike and lie down. Memories of pain fade very quickly. My final hr was about 177bpm, which is well off my "faint and vomiting" max of about 190.

Lumen

Ryaner wrote: »

My time had an avg power of 332 Watts and was a minute slower.

You went further though. I think at 5.98km your time would be much the same as mine.

ROK ON

Thanks. Really need to shed more weight then.

DirkVoodoo

All this power measurement is really upsetting, I feel like I'm up against formula one teams here. Whatever happened to "go as hard as you can and don't stop until you hit the finish or collapse?".

Anyway, good time Lumen, I hope you are out on tuesday. Can't go out today because I'm having a non bike related crisis here, but not racing this weekend so hoping to get one more stab at it.

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

All this power measurement is really upsetting, I feel like I'm up against formula one teams here. Whatever happened to "go as hard as you can and don't stop until you hit the finish or collapse?".

I'm not sure that's a great idea, you'll fade really badly if you go all out from the start, although it won't feel like it. I really had to work to keep the power under 300W in the first 5 minutes on my first run.

If it makes you happier you can mark (PM) against all the names of the power meter cyborgs in the results.

In any case it looks like you're faster than me, as I keep telling you.

DirkVoodoo

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not sure that's a great idea, you'll fade really badly if you go all out from the start, although it won't feel like it. I really had to work to keep the power under 300W in the first 5 minutes on my first run.

If it makes you happier you can mark (PM) against all the names of the power meter cyborgs in the results.

In any case it looks like you're faster than me, as I keep telling you.

I'm not sure was it Tom who said it, but you are definitely the cycling equivalent of Ivan Drago. I am Rocky, training in a shed and lifting carts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPbLzu83Ato

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I'm not sure was it Tom who said it, but you are definitely the cycling equivalent of Ivan Drago.

Yeah, apart from the doping!

ROK ON

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

. . ., training in a shed and lifting carts.

and I am training in a cake shop lifting Strawberry Mille Feiulle and drinking luxurious hot chocolate. I guess that explains much of the time differential.

BTW, I told you that you would do a sub 20m time.