The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

ISAW

MrPudding wrote: »

Why are you treating both points as separate? Obviously, if it states that other threads will be deleted or lock then not only do you have to create a new thread, but you have to do it somewhere where they won't be locked or deleted. That is why I said new thread and a forum where it would be allowed. I used "and" to indicate that both actions would have to be carried out.

Nonsense. clearly if anyone wants to post on non clerical abuse in this forum this is the thread for it and you have been shown why.

As I have repeatedly tried to point out to you, as far as I am concerned, with respect to what I post, this thread is not for talking about non clerical child sex abuse. I don't care what you do, or what you discuss.

WRONG! You are trying to change you claim! You claimed that my posts were off topic for this thread. You didn't claim you were posting only what you wanted you claimed the entire thread was only about clerical abuse. We then entered into a discussion on what your thought the thread was about and you quite clearly stated (having been shown by me that it was not) that it was only about clerical child abuse. It subsequently transpired that you revealed an additional hidden agenda in that you wanted to discuss not only child abuse but how the hierarchy dealt with it!

This is not a denial of the other 99%, according to you and your source, of child sex abuse.

My sourceS plural! Not my opinion but published FACTS show it is about one per cent. Some of them indicate Catholic clergy at less than one per cent. Had you thought about that at the beginning you might have considered what percentage of people looking after children are clergy anyway. It is probably a low percentage so the liklihood that clergy would be high would be unusual since maybe they are about one per cent of the total people involved with kids. But then you would be back in the position wher we have declining vocations and even less clergy involved with kids and the other 99 per cent increasing. You would then be faced with the same question
If you are interested in solving any problems WHY are you interested in a vanishingly small number of child abusers? then your hidden agenda of attacking the Catholic Hierarchy would be exposed again.

It should only be taken as an indication that I have taken the decision that I, that is me and me only, not you, not anyone else, no one, just me, should not and will not discuss non clerical child sex abuse in this thread. This is not me back seat modding, it is not me commenting on how this thread, or indeed forum should be moderated, it is not me trying to influence what anyone else posts or does not post in this thread or in this forum.

Oh but it is! If you are changing your opinion from "This thread is not about anything other than clerical abuse" to "this thread can cover all abuse it is just that I don't want to discuss the other 99 per cent of non clerical abuse" then please say so.

But Ill bet you can't admit your changed emphasis. And you seem to also have a problem admitting that rather than solving or treating the abusers or victims you want to atttack the church hierarchy. I mean what have you suggested should be done with victims or abusers? But you have had a good go at the bosses haven't you?

It is simply an indication that I AM UNWILLING TO TALK ABOUT NON CLERICAL CHILD SEX ABUSE IN THIS THREAD.

So you are changing your claim from what you think others should not discuss to what you want to discuss?

What do you suggested should be done with victims or abusers? Or will you now launch into your attack on the hierarchy again?

now, I am really running out was ways, and indeed the will to explain this any further. It is a reasonable easy concept to understand, I think.

You are changing your claim and hiding your agenda.

philiporeilly

Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin has warned that there are still strong forces preventing the truth about clerical abuse from emerging. He said he was personally disheartened and discouraged about the level of willingness within the church to begin a process of renewal.

Bishop of Kilaloe Dr Willie Walsh says he largely agrees with the Archbishop of Dublin's comments on the Catholic Church's handling of clerical child sexual abuse. Bishop Walsh said the Catholic hierarchy was still in denial.

smurfhousing

philiporeilly wrote: »

Archbishop of Dublin Dr Diarmuid Martin has warned that there are still strong forces preventing the truth about clerical abuse from emerging. He said he was personally disheartened and discouraged about the level of willingness within the church to begin a process of renewal.

Bishop of Kilaloe Dr Willie Walsh says he largely agrees with the Archbishop of Dublin's comments on the Catholic Church's handling of clerical child sexual abuse. Bishop Walsh said the Catholic hierarchy was still in denial.

We'll see a lot of positive changes once Cardinal Pell gets here with the Irish Visitation. Bring it on!

kiwimac

I think this whole visitation thing is a step backwards into the 1950s. Can't see it working, people are, on the whole, better educated and less willing to let others do their thinking for them in matters of faith than once they were.

smurfhousing

kiwimac wrote: »

I think this whole visitation thing is a step backwards into the 1950s. Can't see it working, people are, on the whole, better educated and less willing to let others do their thinking for them in matters of faith than once they were.

No I don't think so. I don't think too many people want to go back to the 1950s. I think you will find there some of the sources and causes of our current mess.

What we are looking at with the completion of the Visitation, is the start, hopefully, of an authentic implementation of the Second Vatican Council. We never got that. The Pope said as much in his Irish letter.

Michael G

kiwimac wrote: »

I think this whole visitation thing is a step backwards into the 1950s. Can't see it working, people are, on the whole, better educated and less willing to let others do their thinking for them in matters of faith than once they were.

With respect, I think you misunderstand the purpose of the visitation; it has more to do with finding out and correcting the failures of our bishops in their pastoral and administrative duties over the last two or three decades.

I do not agree with you that "people are, on the whole, better educated and less willing to let others do their thinking for them in matters of faith than once they were." Many people have a better secular education than they had forty years ago, but their education as Catholics (up to my generation, and I am 53) has failed them. Plenty of people have confident opinions based on little knowledge, and most of it secular. The Irish Church has let them down in their youth and early adulthood by not giving them a knowledge of Catholic teaching against which they could at least have tested the secular consensus and made an informed choice.

I agree with this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66389463&postcount=936. Catholic education in the schools is vacuous; so are most of the homilies delivered on Sundays; and most of our Masses are a travesty. If the visitation can do something about all of that, it will be a wonderful thing.

DerryRed

Michael G wrote: »

Catholic education in the schools is vacuous; so are most of the homilies delivered on Sundays; and most of our Masses are a travesty. If the visitation can do something about all of that, it will be a wonderful thing.

I think you touch on a great point here about the homilies delivered on Sundays. I've been saying for years that the quality of sermons is an absolute disgrace. In a lot of cases the priest just repeats what was said in the Gospel, with no added value. I could count on one hand the number of priests in the last 20 years that I would call good preachers. If the "visitation" can sort out anything I hope this is one of them.

Michael G

DerryRed wrote: »

I think you touch on a great point here about the homilies delivered on Sundays. I've been saying for years that the quality of sermons is an absolute disgrace. In a lot of cases the priest just repeats what was said in the Gospel, with no added value. I could count on one hand the number of priests in the last 20 years that I would call good preachers. If the "visitation" can sort out anything I hope this is one of them.

Like you, I have found them rare enough. From my own experience, depending on where I might be at Mass on Sundays, I would commend the Dominican Fr Ronan Cusack and Fr John Hogan, curate in St Mary's Parish, both in Drogheda; also Fr Patrick McCarthy PP in St Peter and Paul's parish in Cork and Fr Thomas O'Toole in Kilkenny (I hope I am not getting any of them into trouble with their superiors; I know that being orthodox is not the most promising road to advancement in the Irish church).

smurfhousing

Michael G wrote: »

Like you, I have found them rare enough. From my own experience, depending on where I might be at Mass on Sundays, I would commend the Dominican Fr Ronan Cusack and Fr John Hogan, curate in St Mary's Parish, both in Drogheda; also Fr Patrick McCarthy PP in St Peter and Paul's parish in Cork and Fr Thomas O'Toole in Kilkenny (I hope I am not getting any of them into trouble with their superiors; I know that being orthodox is not the most promising road to advancement in the Irish church).

Fr Hogan has been on EWTN. He would be an exception to the general rule.

You know there's a problem when... I'm at Mass, and I think to myself ''I have books on my shelf at home. Give me half an hour, and I can come up with a better sermon than this.'' And be thinking that pretty much every Sunday. It's so frustrating to see that most of our priests are simply not teaching faith and morals at Mass. I'm not simply talking about fire and brimstone. I'm talking about both the positive and the negative elements of the Gospel - yes there is sin, we've sinned, but we can be forgiven, and best of all we can experience true joy in this life, and real love. Instead of being enslaved to the world and it's pleasures and empty promises, and despair. They are either afraid to or refuse to because they don't agree with it. They think they are being kind to the congregation, but they are actually being really cruel. The sheep need fed, and they give them candyfloss, instead of healthy green, life-giving grass.

You can't give what you don't have. We have to look at the seminary. Maynooth. Enough said. Our priests, by and large, have not been formed.

Michael G

As you say. Milton used the same image in Lycidas, though he was talking about the clergy of the Church of England:

The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.

Mind you, most of our lot would make the clergy of the present Church of England look like fundamentalists.

Wacker

Michael G wrote: »

I agree with this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=336023.

Hi Michael,

You've posted the wrong link, and I'm quite curious to read the post you meant. Can you edit your post?

Thanks.

Michael G

Wacker wrote: »

Hi Michael,

You've posted the wrong link, and I'm quite curious to read the post you meant. Can you edit your post?

Thanks.

Sorry. I think I have fixed it now.

smurfhousing

Michael G wrote: »

As you say. Milton used the same image in Lycidas, though he was talking about the clergy of the Church of England:

The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.

Mind you, most of our lot would make the clergy of the present Church of England look like fundamentalists.

I think some of the sheep are getting their nourishment elsewhere (good books, EWTN, internet) whilst others are chewing on barbed wire! Those are the sheep who are really in trouble.

I think the faithful will have to get off their backsides and do something about it themselves. Our bishops and priests are, largely, not interested. The Pope is interested. He is writing some really good stuff (subscribe to Zenit - free!).

As a concrete example, myself and some friends are planning to start a study group in our parish of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, with a clear mandate to study only the Catechism and official Church teachings, with all disputes being resolved through recourse to what the Church actually says, primarily in the Catechism, so as to protect it against becoming another dissident talking shop.

DerryRed

Michael G wrote: »

Like you, I have found them rare enough. From my own experience, depending on where I might be at Mass on Sundays, I would commend the Dominican Fr Ronan Cusack and Fr John Hogan, curate in St Mary's Parish, both in Drogheda; also Fr Patrick McCarthy PP in St Peter and Paul's parish in Cork and Fr Thomas O'Toole in Kilkenny (I hope I am not getting any of them into trouble with their superiors; I know that being orthodox is not the most promising road to advancement in the Irish church).

I'm living in Kilkenny. Do you know what church Fr Thomas O'Toole is based in? Maybe we should setup some kind of Rate My Priest service on the web

DerryRed

smurfhousing wrote: »

Fr Hogan has been on EWTN. He would be an exception to the general rule.

You know there's a problem when... I'm at Mass, and I think to myself ''I have books on my shelf at home. Give me half an hour, and I can come up with a better sermon than this.'' And be thinking that pretty much every Sunday. It's so frustrating to see that most of our priests are simply not teaching faith and morals at Mass. I'm not simply talking about fire and brimstone. I'm talking about both the positive and the negative elements of the Gospel - yes there is sin, we've sinned, but we can be forgiven, and best of all we can experience true joy in this life, and real love. Instead of being enslaved to the world and it's pleasures and empty promises, and despair. They are either afraid to or refuse to because they don't agree with it. They think they are being kind to the congregation, but they are actually being really cruel. The sheep need fed, and they give them candyfloss, instead of healthy green, life-giving grass.

You can't give what you don't have. We have to look at the seminary. Maynooth. Enough said. Our priests, by and large, have not been formed.

I sometimes wonder what is happening in the seminary. I mean are the priests even getting taught how to speak in public. I believe many of the poor sermons can be attributed to a nervousness about speaking in public, in addition to the reasons you give.

smurfhousing

DerryRed wrote: »

I sometimes wonder what is happening in the seminary. I mean are the priests even getting taught how to speak in public. I believe many of the poor sermons can be attributed to a nervousness about speaking in public, in addition to the reasons you give.

I can go to Maynooth and study philosophy and theology for 6 sixs or whatever. But it doesn't mean anything if my priestly formation is lacking. That's the problem with Maynooth. They are turning out graduates to be priests, but they have not been properly formed as priests. If a man works hard himself, he can overcome the lacking of his seminary experience, but if he goes on what he gets, he will be sorely lacking. I wonder how our priests have such little clue about Liturgy, about why Masses are so sloppy, then I look at what is STILL going on in the seminary and my question is answered. For as long as the modernists, feminists, and dissenters are in charge and have influence at Maynooth, then the problem will continue.

I'm glad we have the internet and an open press, all these things can be exposed now and it really is only a matter of time before the problem gets sorted, which it will.

I hope some folks from Maynooth (the type I am referring to above) are reading this, because YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED!

Michael G

DerryRed wrote: »

I'm living in Kilkenny. Do you know what church Fr Thomas O'Toole is based in? Maybe we should setup some kind of Rate My Priest service on the web

Fr O'Toole is at St Patrick's Church, College Road, Kilkenny. On Sundays at 5 p.m. he says Mass in the Extraordinary Form. His homilies are excellent, the liturgy is beautiful and they have a small but proficient choir.

I would be all in favour of a Rate My Priest site, but it might need to be broken down into categories. Fr Brian (name picked at random, obviously), who is so nice and normal and not like a priest at all and we have dancing sometimes and he makes it personal by saying the Eucharistic prayer in his own words - I think he deserves a category all to himself.

DerryRed

Michael G wrote: »

Fr O'Toole is at St Patrick's Church, College Road, Kilkenny. On Sundays at 5 p.m. he says Mass in the Extraordinary Form. His homilies are excellent, the liturgy is beautiful and they have a small but proficient choir.

Thanks. Does Fr O'Toole say any of the Sunday morning masses at St.Patrick's? Unfortunately due to family commitments 5pm on a Sunday is not a good time for us.

Michael G

I'm afraid I don't know about Sunday mornings, but I will make enquiries and let you know.

Amuary

Fr. Thomas O'Toole is the curate of Kilmacow Parish, located near Waterford and 'next-door' to Ferrybank parish in the diocese. He comes up to say the EF Masses at St. Patricks on Sundays and all Feasts. Sundays Masses are for the moment always at 5pm, unless otherwise announced. Masses for feasts and announcements can be found on www.societyofstoliverplunkett.blogspot.com.

As has been noted, Fr. is a good orthodox priest who gives freely of his time to support this development in our diocese and we are all extremely greatful.

Other Masses at St. Patricks in Kilkenny are novus ordo and I couldnt vouch for how they are celebrated.

pitkan

When history looks back upon the Vaticans response to the Murphy report will the headline be...Pope Dithered While The Faithful Departed.

joseph brand

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10355933.stm

A high-profile former Roman Catholic priest in Italy has been charged with sexual abuse.

Pierino Gelmini, 85, is alleged to have abused 12 young people at a drug rehabilitation centre he had founded.

Oh Hooray, another one caught just before he dies. It's almost useless putting an 80-90 yr old in jail. You wanna be catching these monsters when they are younger. He has HAD his life.

Michael G

pitkan wrote: »

When history looks back upon the Vaticans response to the Murphy report will the headline be...Pope Dithered While The Faithful Departed.

Just in case the Pope is logged in at the moment, who are the faithful, how many are departing, and in what way is he dithering? I would be interested to read precise reasoned answers to all three questions and so, I am sure, would he.

pitkan

Michael G wrote: »

Just in case the Pope is logged in at the moment, who are the faithful, how many are departing, and in what way is he dithering? I would be interested to read precise reasoned answers to all three questions and so, I am sure, would he.

Hi Michael G, my statement was a play on words. The faithful in my statement are the people who, like myself, have been regular church goers and who, for whatever reason in connection with the child abuse scandals- whether it be because of the overall situation (the whole damned affair warts and all) or latterly on separate issues such as Bishops refusing to resign or the Pope stalling all or any inquiries or in handing over documents (the list goes on), have left the mass attending part of the Catholic religion. I have stopped going to mass this year but I have been more than aware of the decline in church goers in my own parish in the last few years since the revelations began to gather pace. I can obtain mass any day on EWTN or to observe the Sabbath as per the ten commandments, to keep holy that day. Indeed, the Pope or one of his many advisers may be observing this site just the same as Google, the C.I.A., The F.B.I. and all the other paranoid so and so`s who invade our privacy daily.

smurfhousing

This is an excellent sermon which addresses the abuse scandal and everything else: http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2010/03/priests-like-this-might-get-crucified.html

This hard-hitting article is also well worth reading:

The abusive priests are not the only hypocrites. “I am so shocked by the abuse scandal I am leaving the Church.” Right. So, the fact that some degenerates who should never have been ordained violated young people – in itself a deplorable sin – means that the Son of God did not come down to earth, redeem mankind on the cross and found the Church? This appalling scandal no more compromises the truths of the Faith than the career of Alexander VI or any other corrupt Renaissance Pope.

-> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100030794/catholic-sex-abuse-scandal-time-to-sack-trendy-bishops-and-restore-the-faith/

Michael G

pitkan wrote: »

Hi Michael G, my statement was a play on words. The faithful in my statement are the people who, like myself, have been regular church goers and who, for whatever reason in connection with the child abuse scandals- whether it be because of the overall situation (the whole damned affair warts and all) or latterly on separate issues such as Bishops refusing to resign or the Pope stalling all or any inquiries or in handing over documents (the list goes on), have left the mass attending part of the Catholic religion. I have stopped going to mass this year but I have been more than aware of the decline in church goers in my own parish in the last few years since the revelations began to gather pace. I can obtain mass any day on EWTN or to observe the Sabbath as per the ten commandments, to keep holy that day. Indeed, the Pope or one of his many advisers may be observing this site just the same as Google, the C.I.A., The F.B.I. and all the other paranoid so and so`s who invade our privacy daily.

I honestly cannot understand what you mean by "the mass attending part of the Catholic religion". There is no other essential part of the "Catholic religion". At the Mass the priest, not as himself but as a cipher for Jesus Christ, conducts the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of Calvary. We are there looking at it and present at it. At every Mass we are out of time and in eternity. Nothing else approaches it in importance.

As for the Pope watching your activity on the web, I think he would leave that to the Holy Ghost, whose technical resources are larger.

pitkan

Michael G wrote: »

I honestly cannot understand what you mean by "the mass attending part of the Catholic religion". There is no other essential part of the "Catholic religion". At the Mass the priest, not as himself but as a cipher for Jesus Christ, conducts the Last Supper and the Sacrifice of Calvary. We are there looking at it and present at it. At every Mass we are out of time and in eternity. Nothing else approaches it in importance.

As for the Pope watching your activity on the web, I think he would leave that to the Holy Ghost, whose technical resources are larger.

There is the Prayer part for which you can participate in standing in the Council dump to perform and not necessarily in the Church as a building.

Feownah

Happy to see the Belgian authorities are taking the kind of action that needs to be taken across the board http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7852125/Child-sex-abuse-raid-on-Belgian-Catholic-Church.html

Spacedog

Feownah wrote: »

Happy to see the Belgian authorities are taking the kind of action that needs to be taken across the board http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7852125/Child-sex-abuse-raid-on-Belgian-Catholic-Church.html

This thread is not for comments on child abuse, it is a dumping ground for the uncomfortably truthful comments to be buried under inane off topic chatter about what priest gives the best mass.

It is a desgrace that the police should investigate child abuse in such a way, Clergy should be above the law, and discussion about crimes against children should be suppressed in public forums. This is the Irish way, the good, way, the Christian way. doesn't it make ya proud?

now shut up, we're trying to discuss mass, I suggest a ranking between 1 and 10 blah blah, look over there! it's madonna!... what were we talking about? never mind, probably wasn't important.

Fanny Cradock

Spacedog wrote: »

This thread is not for comments on child abuse, it is a dumping ground for the uncomfortably truthful comments to be buried under inane off topic chatter about what priest gives the best mass.

It is a desgrace that the police should investigate child abuse in such a way, Clergy should be above the law, and discussion about crimes against children should be suppressed in public forums. This is the Irish way, the good, way, the Christian way. doesn't it make ya proud?

now shut up, we're trying to discuss mass, I suggest a ranking between 1 and 10 blah blah, look over there! it's madonna!... what were we talking about? never mind, probably wasn't important.

You are a whisker away from an infraction.