The Electric Cars are Coming!!!

Zubeneschamali

cros13 wrote: »

Especially after you
consider that the electricity grid carries power to you at 99% efficiency.

Well, 90% at best in transmission, but you've already lost 40% through the laws of thermodynamics at your coal/gas/oil power plant, unless you go renewable or nuclear.

And then after carrying the weight of a pressurized fuel tank and an expensive, possibly unreliable fuel cell you end up using the electricity to power the same electric motor as is in a pure-electric.

but without the heavy batteries, which run at about 90% efficiency at best.

Battery swapping is a non-starter simply because it requires too much complex infrastructure.

Better tell Renault/Nissan.

The Hydrogen concept/test cars that twits like may/clarkson et al test drive usually cost upwards of €1m

All prototypes are similarly expensive, being basically handcrafted instead of mass produced.

Captain Chaos

cros13 wrote: »

Hydrogen is a non-starter. The best hydrogen fuel cell in the lab operates at
less than 60% efficiency. Hydrogen nowadays is usually made at extreme
expense using natural gas. When you add in the transport cost and problems
storing the hydrogen the math looks even worse. Especially after you
consider that the electricity grid carries power to you at 99% efficiency.

And then after carrying the weight of a pressurized fuel tank and an
expensive, possibly unreliable fuel cell you end up using the electricity to
power the same electric motor as is in a pure-electric.

The "Hydrogen Economy" and the "Hydrogen Car" are ridiculous pipe dreams.

Battery technology can be improved given attention and funding.
Lithium-titanate batteries for example could potentially make an electric car that
charges to 80% in 5 minutes and 100% in a further 5 minutes.
The Lightening electric car already uses Lithium-titanate but the production volumes
are low and consequently the prices are very high.
Battery swapping is a non-starter simply because it requires too much complex
infrastructure.

The Hydrogen concept/test cars that twits like may/clarkson et al test drive usually cost
upwards of €1m to produce and €150-300 to fill the tank.

Watching top gear last night and May was in California, the only place where the Honda Clarity is on sale. It didn't look too bad. I don't remember the price of the car but the cost of filling it up with hydrogen was the same as petrol in the US.

May did go on to say that it is expensive to get hydrogen in a pure from as it's attached to most elements and the cost of stripping it will be the issue but yet the cost of it was not an issue, at least in California.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Ash.J.Williams

I love cars but i'm all for preparing for the day the oil runs dry, but i have never in my life seen a battery that lasts any decent time, i'm sure after a bit of use you will need to charge the fu***rs every 10 minutes!

Ghost Rider

The issue is not the oil running out in general, it's the cheap, easy-to-extract oil running out: this is what's meant by the term "peak oil". Oil will probably not run out in our lifetime but what is there will become so expensive to extract that other forms of energy will become preferable e.g. nuclear.

Many people who own cars (and this isn't directed at you, Ash J. Williams) seem to think the issue of whether or not they'll have petrol-driven engines will be a matter of choice. It won't be. If oil reaches its peak in our lifetime (and many predict it is either nearly there now or it will be in the next few years), choice won't enter into it. We will be lucky if cars powered by something other than petrol are even an affordable option.

And, yes, electric cars are currently charged from the national grid - of course. But not all of that power is from oil or coal - some of it is from sustainable sources. I don't what the percentage is but it's not remotely enough to immunise us as an economy from the effects of peak oil, though.

Petrol is the past, folks - get used to the idea. Believe it or not, the manner in which the price of oil is rising right now is comparatively gentle. If peak oil theory is to be believed, it will suddenly start to grow exponentially.

Then we might all be begging for electric cars.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I love cars but i'm all for preparing for the day the oil runs dry, but i have never in my life seen a battery that lasts any decent time, i'm sure after a bit of use you will need to charge the fu***rs every 10 minutes!

keithclancy

paddym355 wrote: »

Nuclear, wind, hydro will all be relatively clean. Gas will be significantly cleaner than coal.

Wind is the one we will be relying on most in this country, although a small nuclear plant to replace Moneypoint would be nice at some point...

Even if the entire grid was coal fired electric cars would still give a saving in terms of CO2 emissions....

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/yes-electric-cars-will-reduce-carbon-emissions.html

Plus it's easier to put a scrubber for NOX, SOX, CO2 etc on one power plant as opposed to millions of cars.....

The cost of Coal/Gas is volatile as Coal is linked to the price of Oil, due to a large portion of its cost being another traded commondity : Freight. Gas is tricky and Ireland / The UK aren't really big Players in Gas storage and have nowhere to store excess gas in the Summer months and have to sell it and then buy it back in the winter at a much higher price.

You still need non renewable sources to backup renewable, if you increase usage in the offpeak periods you'll still need coal/gas fired plants to meet demand. At the moment the grid doesn't have anywhere close to 100% renewables to meet off peak demand.

Energy is just cheaper in the Evenings due to Industry and Business not requiring it.

Cheap off peak energy and Clean off peak energy are two different things.

The cleanest/cheapest long term solution is Nuclear, you have a large initial investment but a constant predictable cost for roughly 25 - 30 years.

Also never heard of a Three phase coming into a house in Ireland (usually only for a commerical business) only have heard of it being standard in Germany.

Cost wise it makes sense, enviromentally Electric cars are nowhere near developed enough to be as clean as a 10 year Petrol/Diesel car that you keep running.

They'll suit some people, i.e. most people living in Dublin (Short commutes) but not the rest of Ireland (not enough population density to merit the infrastructure investment)

Rather than spend a load of money getting more cars on the road, it would make more sense to first fix Irelands public transport system which practically doesn't exist (Trams/Trains/Metros) It will have to be done sometime otherwise when Energy becomes more expensive (and it will) everyone will be up sh*t creek.

They also really need to stop focusing setting it all up in the Capital, its a catch 22, nobody wants to setup outside the capital due to the poor Public Transport and it won't happen until it exists.

Saying that though, the ESB have a good reputation internationally for Infrastructure, its a strategy that needs to be set by the Government, the ESB are just delivering a service, not a solution.