The Electric Cars are Coming!!!

Gymsey

With electric cars fast approaching and ESB planing on having 1500 charging points installed over next two and a half years, will you be buying one?

The Nissan Leaf is the first car available, available before end of 2010 and then Renault bringing out one in 2011.

The aim is to utilise the Wind Energy produced at night, when there is very little demand usually, to charge electric vehicles. Hence being as environmentally friendly as possible.

mike65

4 plugs in the whole country as of now? Whoopee!

Absurdum

no

Zubeneschamali

Gymsey wrote: »

The Nissan Leaf is the first car available

160 km max range, 8 hour charge time. Nope, that won't do it for me.

I also don't believe it'll be available in real numbers this year.

keithclancy

I'd get one in a heartbeat if my daily commute didnt exceed the maximum range of an electric car

Also I don't have a garage so i'd have nowhere to charge it.

We had a chance in work to try out a Mini Cooper Electric, great around the City, useless on the Autobahn.

cros13

I just got my new Avensis saturday but I have a deposit down for a RWD
Tesla Model S due 2012. I'm supposedly the 5th person down for a RWD model.

http://teslamotors.com/s

Leonard Hofstadter

I thought this was the motors forum:rolleyes::D?

Those electric yokes will only sell to D4 stereotypes who pronounce words like car and like as "cor" and "loike" and have a feigned concern for the "envoyerment".

Pkiernan

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

160 km max range, 8 hour charge time. Nope, that won't do it for me.

I also don't believe it'll be available in real numbers this year.

A 100 mile range would work for me though.

The charging time is up to 8 hours, but if you are only doing 50 miles a day, that goes down to 4 hours on a 230 V socket.

With 110 HP and 210 foot/lbs of torque, it will be a very nippy little car too.

I'd love one, but would be curious to know what an 8 hour charge costs. My maths puts it at about €4 per charge at .16 Euro per kwHour.

At €4 per 100 miles, thats only 4 cent a mile - pretty cheap (if my calcs are right). 30 mpg at todays petrol prices is 19.5 cents a mile.

Also, no oil or fluid changes, no gears to worry about, no egr valves or O2 sensors to fail, no air filters, no plugs, etc etc etc.

keithclancy

Pkiernan wrote: »

A 100 mile range would work for me though.

The charging time is up to 8 hours, but if you are only doing 50 miles a day, that goes down to 4 hours on a 230 V socket.

With 110 HP and 210 foot/lbs of torque, it will be a very nippy little car too.

I'd love one, but would be curious to know what an 8 hour charge costs. My maths puts it at about €4 per charge at .16 Euro per kwHour.

At €4 per 100 miles, thats only 4 cent a mile - pretty cheap (if my calcs are right).

Also, no oil or fluid changes, no gears to worry about, no egr valves or O2 sensors to fail, no air filters, no plugs, etc etc etc.

It looks feckin awful though.

Zubeneschamali

captainspeed wrote: »

Those electric yokes will only sell to D4 stereotypes who pronounce words like car and like as "cor" and "loike" and have a feigned concern for the "envoyerment".

Electric motors are perfect for cars, much better than internal combustion engines. Max torque from zero revs, no need for a clutch or gearbox, and cheap to maintain and run.

Unfortunately, batteries are rubbish, and there's still no sign of a technology which will charge as fast or have the range of a petrol tank.

Wossack

mike65 wrote: »

4 plugs in the whole country as of now? Whoopee!

if you thought the queues at petrol stations are bad... 8 hour charging time? lol

Gymsey

mike65 wrote: »

4 plugs in the whole country as of now? Whoopee!

They plug into a regular 3 pin socket, if you look around your house you'll probably come across a few more aswell......

Plus chances are petrol stations will jump on the band wagon and set up some sockets and make a few euros for themselves out of it

And before anyone says anything about leaving your car there for 8hrs....you can get a quick charge to 80% battery capacity....similar to quick charges of mobile phones at festivals etc.

paddym355

cros13 wrote: »

I just got my new Avensis saturday but I have a deposit down for a RWD
Tesla Model S due 2012. I'm supposedly the 5th person down for a RWD model.

http://teslamotors.com/s

I'm not jealous, oh no, not at all ;-)
Fair play - if this car comes in at the advertised price it will be pretty awesome.
I saw a press release from Tesla that their first RWD Roadster was sold to an Irish customer in 2010 so some lucky git is currently driving one of those around.

And to the poster above, bear in mind that electric cars should save you 80-90% on fuel costs so its good for the pocket, as well as the environment, and will also be handy when oil prices spike due to growing demand from BRIC and the fact that supplies that have most probably now reached a permanent plateau.

robtri

cros13 wrote: »

I just got my new Avensis saturday but I have a deposit down for a RWD
Tesla Model S due 2012. I'm supposedly the 5th person down for a RWD model.

http://teslamotors.com/s

whats the price of that over here???

keithclancy

paddym355 wrote: »

I'm not jealous, oh no, not at all ;-)
Fair play - if this car comes in at the advertised price it will be pretty awesome.
I saw a press release from Tesla that their first RWD Roadster was sold to an Irish customer in 2010 so some lucky git is currently driving one of those around.

And to the poster above, bear in mind that electric cars should save you 80-90% on fuel costs so its good for the pocket, as well as the environment, and will also be handy when oil prices spike due to growing demand from BRIC and the fact that supplies that have most probably now reached a permanent plateau.

Good for the pocket, but environment wise unless your running on Nuclear its not clean at all. Your just creating more polution at your Coal and Gas fired power stations.

CianRyan

If they stop making the affordable ones look like shíte and have the on board computer simulate a roaring V8... I'll think about.

cros13

robtri wrote: »

whats the price of that over here???

I put a refundable deposit down. They haven't told me the price yet.

I'll be sharing a 5kW wind turbine with my neighbors from next year so the
charging cost will hopefully be even cheaper. And with three-phase power
from the turbine I should be able to use the quick 45min charge on the car.

Gymsey

keithclancy wrote: »

Good for the pocket, but environment wise unless your running on Nuclear its not clean at all. Your just creating more polution at your Coal and Gas fired power stations.

The idea is use the wind energy produced at night when demand is low

paddym355

keithclancy wrote: »

Good for the pocket, but environment wise unless your running on Nuclear its not clean at all. Your just creating more polution at your Coal and Gas fired power stations.

Nuclear, wind, hydro will all be relatively clean. Gas will be significantly cleaner than coal.

Wind is the one we will be relying on most in this country, although a small nuclear plant to replace Moneypoint would be nice at some point...

Even if the entire grid was coal fired electric cars would still give a saving in terms of CO2 emissions....

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/yes-electric-cars-will-reduce-carbon-emissions.html

Plus it's easier to put a scrubber for NOX, SOX, CO2 etc on one power plant as opposed to millions of cars.....

Dades

cros13 wrote: »

I just got my new Avensis saturday but I have a deposit down for a RWD
Tesla Model S due 2012. I'm supposedly the 5th person down for a RWD model.

http://teslamotors.com/s

That's a smashing looking motor.

I need an estate version though.

Darsad

captainspeed wrote: »

Those electric yokes will only sell to D4 stereotypes who pronounce words like car and like as "cor" and "loike" and have a feigned concern for the "envoyerment".

Well there are 6 morons in the Dail ( I know there are more than six ) but the ones to which I refer belong to a particular Cult who hopefully will be needing their own transport soon so there should be six sold anyway. But I suppose thay could rotate them !

Ruby_Woo

There's a really interesting docu on the demise of the Electric Cars in the US called "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

Well worth a watch if you can find it.

Wouldn't mind an EV-1 myself if they were still about!

http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

Viper_JB

Won't this all be a big waste of time if hydrogen fuel cells are introduced? Factoring in charging time and range, you'd probably be much faster cycling then using one of these ipods...just all seems a bit redundant to be investing large amounts of money into.

Pkiernan

The other charging option being mentioned by Renault is a quick change battery pack.

Pull into "Petrol" Station. Apparently the entire battery pack can be replaced in 3 to 5 minutes - approx as long as one spends at the moment pumping fuel.

the_syco

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Unfortunately, batteries are rubbish, and there's still no sign of a technology which will charge as fast or have the range of a petrol tank.

Pray that GM go bust

cros13

Viper_JB wrote: »

Won't this all be a big waste of time if hydrogen fuel cells are introduced? Factoring in charging time and range, you'd probably be much faster cycling then using one of these ipods...just all seems a bit redundant to be investing large amounts of money into.

Hydrogen is a non-starter. The best hydrogen fuel cell in the lab operates at
less than 60% efficiency. Hydrogen nowadays is usually made at extreme
expense using natural gas. When you add in the transport cost and problems
storing the hydrogen the math looks even worse. Especially after you
consider that the electricity grid carries power to you at 99% efficiency.

And then after carrying the weight of a pressurized fuel tank and an
expensive, possibly unreliable fuel cell you end up using the electricity to
power the same electric motor as is in a pure-electric.

The "Hydrogen Economy" and the "Hydrogen Car" are ridiculous pipe dreams.

Battery technology can be improved given attention and funding.
Lithium-titanate batteries for example could potentially make an electric car that
charges to 80% in 5 minutes and 100% in a further 5 minutes.
The Lightening electric car already uses Lithium-titanate but the production volumes
are low and consequently the prices are very high.
Battery swapping is a non-starter simply because it requires too much complex
infrastructure.

The Hydrogen concept/test cars that twits like may/clarkson et al test drive usually cost
upwards of €1m to produce and €150-300 to fill the tank.

mickdw

I am prepared to move from a petrol car to a hybrid to help the environment if I must. I'll have a lexus gs 450h. 340 bhp, 3.5L V6 petrol + electric motor & €630 tax & 0 to 100km/hr in just over 5 seconds.....
The electric cars are a step too fair imo.

cros13

mickdw wrote: »

I am prepared to move from a petrol car to a hybrid to help the environment if I must. I'll have a lexus gs 450h. 340 bhp, 3.5L V6 petrol + electric motor & €630 tax & 0 to 100km/hr in just over 5 seconds.....
The electric cars are a step too fair imo.

Well the Model S should cost €80 per year to tax and does 0-100kph in 5.7 seconds.
I looked at the 450h a while back but the VRT along with the running costs put me off.
I even considered the Tesla Roadster for a while but I couldn't afford it.

Absurdum

if you're concerned about CO2 emissions, change your diet, not your car

jimoc

Anyone know what sort of price is on the Nissan Leaf.
I do 20 miles a day commute so the range isn't a problem for me, the price however would be.

BoardsRanger

cros13 wrote: »

I just got my new Avensis saturday but I have a deposit down for a RWD
Tesla Model S due 2012. I'm supposedly the 5th person down for a RWD model.

http://teslamotors.com/s

Just out of curiousity - how much will it cost to replace the batteries after 5-7 years? Also, is there any indication as to how it might do in a EURO NCAP test?

Zubeneschamali

cros13 wrote: »

Especially after you
consider that the electricity grid carries power to you at 99% efficiency.

Well, 90% at best in transmission, but you've already lost 40% through the laws of thermodynamics at your coal/gas/oil power plant, unless you go renewable or nuclear.

And then after carrying the weight of a pressurized fuel tank and an expensive, possibly unreliable fuel cell you end up using the electricity to power the same electric motor as is in a pure-electric.

but without the heavy batteries, which run at about 90% efficiency at best.

Battery swapping is a non-starter simply because it requires too much complex infrastructure.

Better tell Renault/Nissan.

The Hydrogen concept/test cars that twits like may/clarkson et al test drive usually cost upwards of €1m

All prototypes are similarly expensive, being basically handcrafted instead of mass produced.

Captain Chaos

cros13 wrote: »

Hydrogen is a non-starter. The best hydrogen fuel cell in the lab operates at
less than 60% efficiency. Hydrogen nowadays is usually made at extreme
expense using natural gas. When you add in the transport cost and problems
storing the hydrogen the math looks even worse. Especially after you
consider that the electricity grid carries power to you at 99% efficiency.

And then after carrying the weight of a pressurized fuel tank and an
expensive, possibly unreliable fuel cell you end up using the electricity to
power the same electric motor as is in a pure-electric.

The "Hydrogen Economy" and the "Hydrogen Car" are ridiculous pipe dreams.

Battery technology can be improved given attention and funding.
Lithium-titanate batteries for example could potentially make an electric car that
charges to 80% in 5 minutes and 100% in a further 5 minutes.
The Lightening electric car already uses Lithium-titanate but the production volumes
are low and consequently the prices are very high.
Battery swapping is a non-starter simply because it requires too much complex
infrastructure.

The Hydrogen concept/test cars that twits like may/clarkson et al test drive usually cost
upwards of €1m to produce and €150-300 to fill the tank.

Watching top gear last night and May was in California, the only place where the Honda Clarity is on sale. It didn't look too bad. I don't remember the price of the car but the cost of filling it up with hydrogen was the same as petrol in the US.

May did go on to say that it is expensive to get hydrogen in a pure from as it's attached to most elements and the cost of stripping it will be the issue but yet the cost of it was not an issue, at least in California.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Ash.J.Williams

I love cars but i'm all for preparing for the day the oil runs dry, but i have never in my life seen a battery that lasts any decent time, i'm sure after a bit of use you will need to charge the fu***rs every 10 minutes!

Ghost Rider

The issue is not the oil running out in general, it's the cheap, easy-to-extract oil running out: this is what's meant by the term "peak oil". Oil will probably not run out in our lifetime but what is there will become so expensive to extract that other forms of energy will become preferable e.g. nuclear.

Many people who own cars (and this isn't directed at you, Ash J. Williams) seem to think the issue of whether or not they'll have petrol-driven engines will be a matter of choice. It won't be. If oil reaches its peak in our lifetime (and many predict it is either nearly there now or it will be in the next few years), choice won't enter into it. We will be lucky if cars powered by something other than petrol are even an affordable option.

And, yes, electric cars are currently charged from the national grid - of course. But not all of that power is from oil or coal - some of it is from sustainable sources. I don't what the percentage is but it's not remotely enough to immunise us as an economy from the effects of peak oil, though.

Petrol is the past, folks - get used to the idea. Believe it or not, the manner in which the price of oil is rising right now is comparatively gentle. If peak oil theory is to be believed, it will suddenly start to grow exponentially.

Then we might all be begging for electric cars.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I love cars but i'm all for preparing for the day the oil runs dry, but i have never in my life seen a battery that lasts any decent time, i'm sure after a bit of use you will need to charge the fu***rs every 10 minutes!

keithclancy

paddym355 wrote: »

Nuclear, wind, hydro will all be relatively clean. Gas will be significantly cleaner than coal.

Wind is the one we will be relying on most in this country, although a small nuclear plant to replace Moneypoint would be nice at some point...

Even if the entire grid was coal fired electric cars would still give a saving in terms of CO2 emissions....

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/07/yes-electric-cars-will-reduce-carbon-emissions.html

Plus it's easier to put a scrubber for NOX, SOX, CO2 etc on one power plant as opposed to millions of cars.....

The cost of Coal/Gas is volatile as Coal is linked to the price of Oil, due to a large portion of its cost being another traded commondity : Freight. Gas is tricky and Ireland / The UK aren't really big Players in Gas storage and have nowhere to store excess gas in the Summer months and have to sell it and then buy it back in the winter at a much higher price.

You still need non renewable sources to backup renewable, if you increase usage in the offpeak periods you'll still need coal/gas fired plants to meet demand. At the moment the grid doesn't have anywhere close to 100% renewables to meet off peak demand.

Energy is just cheaper in the Evenings due to Industry and Business not requiring it.

Cheap off peak energy and Clean off peak energy are two different things.

The cleanest/cheapest long term solution is Nuclear, you have a large initial investment but a constant predictable cost for roughly 25 - 30 years.

Also never heard of a Three phase coming into a house in Ireland (usually only for a commerical business) only have heard of it being standard in Germany.

Cost wise it makes sense, enviromentally Electric cars are nowhere near developed enough to be as clean as a 10 year Petrol/Diesel car that you keep running.

They'll suit some people, i.e. most people living in Dublin (Short commutes) but not the rest of Ireland (not enough population density to merit the infrastructure investment)

Rather than spend a load of money getting more cars on the road, it would make more sense to first fix Irelands public transport system which practically doesn't exist (Trams/Trains/Metros) It will have to be done sometime otherwise when Energy becomes more expensive (and it will) everyone will be up sh*t creek.

They also really need to stop focusing setting it all up in the Capital, its a catch 22, nobody wants to setup outside the capital due to the poor Public Transport and it won't happen until it exists.

Saying that though, the ESB have a good reputation internationally for Infrastructure, its a strategy that needs to be set by the Government, the ESB are just delivering a service, not a solution.