PTC Waterford Or Atlantic Air Cork??

globemaster1986

TrackBarChaser wrote: »

Don't train anywhere as there aren't any jobs out there. Sorry to be blunt but it's a fact. Don't be so naive as to believe any flight school who tells you otherwise. You will waste your time and more importantly your cash.
And to be honest even if there were jobs out there I wouldn't bother, the salaries these days are pitiful.
You may view this post/me as being very negative, fair enough.
But I know of people who are suffering desperately both financially and mentally after gaining a frozen ATPL and have yet to get an interview after over a year. I know you're thinking "what about Ryanair?". The people I know couldn't get the further 30k from the bank (any bank) to pay for the type rating.
And my situation, I have a job, not a great one terms and conditions wise and even worse salary wise.
So, weather it's PTC, Atlantic or Florida it doesn't really matter that much as no matter where you train it's the same feeling you'll have when your penny less and jobless or for that matter penny less and flying a 777

Inspiring dude! I've waited around 2 years now since I finished college waiting for things to improve. I'm well acquainted with the realities and so on but frankly i don't want to wait around anymore. All i want to do is fly and i can actually get the finance together so i think now is time for me to go!

TrackBarChaser

It wasn't meant to inspire you at all. Just to inform you what it's like but it obviously didn't!
Don't say you weren't warned!
Good Luck.

airvan

jarls wrote: »

Hi I have been looking at training for a long time and rang the IAA and they said that PTC waterford are Licenced to deliver a JAA integrated course since last year just FYI

That's as maybe but they've been calling it an integrated course for years now. What they offer on their website does not conform to what the JAA considers to be an integrated course. The one glaring example is the

Private Pilots Licence (FAA PPL, JAA PPL)

On an integrated course the the only licence issued is the CPL. They may be licenced to deliver an integrated course. But the course on their website clearly isn't a JAA integrated course despite what they call it. Check out the other schools like Cabair, OAA and FTE and look at the structure of their integrated courses and compare.

That isn't to say there is anything wrong with the training merely that the marketing is suspect and misleading. They also include 'Airline Interview' in bold as part of the course. This they simply cannot deliver at the moment. Ask any recent graduate.

I'm not against PTC. They produce perfectly good pilots but their sales technique is designed to lure in people who have little understanding of the reality as it stands right now.

I know you're thinking "what about Ryanair?". The people I know couldn't get the further 30k from the bank (any bank) to pay for the type rating.

That's true but that's not the full story. Having the money won't get you into Ryanair either. They are quite choosy and it isn't always clear why one candidate is chosen over another at the moment. Some people are completely ignored while others get in straight away.

Sometimes you can see the reason almost immediately, experience helps and connections help. But sometimes it doesn't.

globemaster1986

TrackBarChaser wrote: »

It wasn't meant to inspire you at all. Just to inform you what it's like but it obviously didn't!
Don't say you weren't warned!
Good Luck.

Alright dude, relax! I am well aware of the situation industry wise at the moment, i'm not dismissing that but in 18mths or so things may be a lot better, i'm sure we all hope that. I've waited 2 years after finishing college for things to pick up, at this stage its either do what i always wanted to do, ie train to become a pilot or go back to college and do a postgrad/masters and settle for a different career. Option, yay! But not really, not when i know i don't want to do anything else. This is all i want to do. Right now i actually have the chance to put the finance together, and i can get it. There will be jobs in the future, older pilots will always be retiring etc. I'm not fussy about where i get employed, i'm willing to travel/live pretty much anywhere. Personally i think its time i backed myself and did it. Its going to cost a fortune but you know what, thats ok. I'm not doing this to be rich, i just love flying and i can't see myself doing anything else!

airvan

That's the right attitude globemaster. Go for it, as long as you are aware that you may have to sit and wait for the airline job for more than a couple of years. In the eighties it could take six years to get an airline job after training or never. Usually they bided their time instructing, part time or full time. Generally the airlines preferred people who were fairly current even if it was in a C150. Sitting at home keeping your ratings ticking over is never the best option.

It probably will go the same way.

Just don't spend too much money and find yourself in debt unable to maintain currency. Keep in mind having to pay for a TR and maybe getting an Instructor rating.

wittymoniker

globemaster1986 wrote: »

Alright dude, relax! I am well aware of the situation industry wise at the moment, i'm not dismissing that but in 18mths or so things may be a lot better, i'm sure we all hope that. I've waited 2 years after finishing college for things to pick up, at this stage its either do what i always wanted to do, ie train to become a pilot or go back to college and do a postgrad/masters and settle for a different career. Option, yay! But not really, not when i know i don't want to do anything else. This is all i want to do. Right now i actually have the chance to put the finance together, and i can get it. There will be jobs in the future, older pilots will always be retiring etc. I'm not fussy about where i get employed, i'm willing to travel/live pretty much anywhere. Personally i think its time i backed myself and did it. Its going to cost a fortune but you know what, thats ok. I'm not doing this to be rich, i just love flying and i can't see myself doing anything else!

You could always train with an Irish school, not mentioning any in particular, get yourself an instructors rating and work for the school until the airlines start to hire. You'll mix with people in the industry, make a name for yourself and fly without having to pay for it, what a novelty! That's the way it used to work, no reason why it should have changed. Just my 2 cents.

globemaster1986

Thanks for that airvan and wittymoniker thats the more positive feedback I was hoping for!

pclancy

You can also travel and recertify to fly in a area with possible jobs such as asia or oz/nz

MightyDucks

the first positive comments ive read on this forum for a long time

jarls

airvan wrote: »

That's as maybe but they've been calling it an integrated course for years now. What they offer on their website does not conform to what the JAA considers to be an integrated course. The one glaring example is the On an integrated course the the only licence issued is the CPL. They may be licenced to deliver an integrated course. But the course on their website clearly isn't a JAA integrated course despite what they call it. Check out the other schools like Cabair, OAA and FTE and look at the structure of their integrated courses and compare.

That isn't to say there is anything wrong with the training merely that the marketing is suspect and misleading. They also include 'Airline Interview' in bold as part of the course. This they simply cannot deliver at the moment. Ask any recent graduate.

I'm not against PTC. They produce perfectly good pilots but their sales technique is designed to lure in people who have little understanding of the reality as it stands right now.

That's true but that's not the full story. Having the money won't get you into Ryanair either. They are quite choosy and it isn't always clear why one candidate is chosen over another at the moment. Some people are completely ignored while others get in straight away.

Sometimes you can see the reason almost immediately, experience helps and connections help. But sometimes it doesn't.

On the back of this comment i emailed the JAA for Info and clarification and they as the IAA confirmed that it is a fully licenced Integrated course and the PPL is awardable depending on your stage on the course and at the discretion of the licencing authority.. I dont want to be pedantic but I think we have an obligation to be accurate and have all the facts before we make a personal decission and certainly be fore we give advise or opinion.. These forums and threads belong to us as a group and are only a valid sourse of reference if we maintain the credibility of same. Unfortunantly you look to be a member of some interested party based on the tone of your mails..??

Stovepipe

Hi all,
If you don't go down the integrated route, get yourself an Instructor's rating.Even if you don't get an instructor's slot at once, it's worth having. Also, you don't need to keep your ME-IR current every year.You can renew every second year in the aircraft and every other year in the sim.You should also keep attending your nearest airfield, just hang out, keep your face familiar, if you can.You'll pick up a ferry flight now and again or even just a spare seat on a jolly or even a few intro flights if you have the FI.
Failing that, get to the UK and try the para or gliding circuit. Lots of airline wannabes wouldn't do that kind of flying for diamonds, so you will get a slot there if you are persistent.Apart from that, get involved in a Permit to Fly aircraft such as a Cub.That will keep you current for small money and you'll meet a lot of airline pilots invoved in that kind of aviation.
regards
Stovepipe

airvan

Unfortunantly you look to be a member of some interested party based on the tone of your mails..??

That's verging on ad hominen. I don't work for any flight school and have no interest in helping one or other FTO gain business. But looking at your first post on this thread. I wonder if perhaps it's you that might perhaps have a vested interest?

I dont want to be pedantic but I think we have an obligation to be accurate and have all the facts before we make a personal decission and certainly be fore we give advise or opinion.

Well lets be pedantic then. The simple fact is that PTC have been marketing their course as 'integrated' for years long before they ever got the approval from the IAA. It is also a simple fact that the integrated course they offer now diverges significantly from that offered by other longer established integrated flight schools. It is also a fact that it diverges from that specified in JAR FCL 1. None of the other integrated schools feel the need to issue a PPL, certainly not two as specified in their website.

None of this means the training they give is anything but excellent. But their marketing is suspect. For whatever reason you have a yen for PTC. That's fine Just don't be taken in by marketing hype. That goes for any flight school. They are all capable of exaggerating. The 'airline interview' in bold letters at the end of their course content list must produce hollow laughter from their recent graduates.

In any case in the current climate the advice given by Stovepipe is good. I thinks the days of walking straight into an airline from flight school are probably gone at least for now. Not so long ago you had to do your apprenticeship, instructing etc before an airline job came up. That's likely to happen again. So be careful how much debt you let yourself in for.

MightyDucks

airvan wrote: »

Oh yes and go to the airline seminars there too. Ask about which schools they prefer. You probably won't have to but others will anyway. The answers may surprise you.
.:p

What are airline seminars?

Cessna_Pilot

airvan wrote: »

That's verging on ad hominen. I don't work for any flight school and have no interest in helping one or other FTO gain business. But looking at your first post on this thread. I wonder if perhaps it's you that might perhaps have a vested interest? Well lets be pedantic then. The simple fact is that PTC have been marketing their course as 'integrated' for years long before they ever got the approval from the IAA. It is also a simple fact that the integrated course they offer now diverges significantly from that offered by other longer established integrated flight schools. It is also a fact that it diverges from that specified in JAR FCL 1. None of the other integrated schools feel the need to issue a PPL, certainly not two as specified in their website.

None of this means the training they give is anything but excellent. But their marketing is suspect. For whatever reason you have a yen for PTC. That's fine Just don't be taken in by marketing hype. That goes for any flight school. They are all capable of exaggerating. The 'airline interview' in bold letters at the end of their course content list must produce hollow laughter from their recent graduates.

In any case in the current climate the advice given by Stovepipe is good. I thinks the days of walking straight into an airline from flight school are probably gone at least for now. Not so long ago you had to do your apprenticeship, instructing etc before an airline job came up. That's likely to happen again. So be careful how much debt you let yourself in for.

Speaking of suspect marketing...
http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-and-ASA-action/Adjudications/2010/10/The-Pilot-Training-College/TF_ADJ_49147.aspx

Delancey

Thanks for that Cessna - well spotted , PTC sound like the aviation equivalent of Snake-Oil salesmen :mad:

nag

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

Speaking of suspect marketing...
http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-and-ASA-action/Adjudications/2010/10/The-Pilot-Training-College/TF_ADJ_49147.aspx

That is epic news. It's about time they got a kick in the @$$. They are absolute masters of marketing.

nag

Simply incredible. I'm lost for words...

http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=29834&locID=1.65.74&page=1

... and for those who aren't in the know and just passing though here, what they're talking about is utter nonsense. At the rates the Pilot Training College (PTC) charge, there's no way you'll be able to pay back the cost of your training in just a 'couple of years'. Secondly, the opportunities that are out there at the moment, while better than previous years, jobs are still few and far between.

And finally, where is the evidence of PTC's pass rates? Oh yeah, that's right, you'll just have to take their word for it! 100% across the board my f'king ass!

RAAAAAAAGING

Cessna_Pilot

jesus wept

Delancey

I would expect nil better from TV3 - pure shyte on that station.

Is there the makings of a complaint to the Broadcasting Complaints Commission me wonders

Cessna_Pilot

delancey42 wrote: »

I would expect nil better from TV3 - pure shyte on that station.

Is there the makings of a complaint to the Broadcasting Complaints Commission me wonders

There should be.

I am in the process of trying to unbrainwash a young lad I know, who has been convinced by the PTC that he will walk into a job at the end of his training. They told him, that he WOULD NOT stand a chance with any other training provider, and that the PTC were THE ONLY school in Europe who supplied pilots to Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Arann, British flipping Airways to name but a few.
From the sounds of it they pretty much "guilted" him into making his parents feel that any other option would put their little boys future in severe jeopardy. And this poor kid bought into it.

AHKO

Joining this conversation a bit late... But maybe what ye said about pilot jobs was true in 2010 but by the look of it the Industry is Picking up Hugely especially abroad!
The PTC Waterford is a good college to train, Maybe expensive and you get the best of both you will be i Waterford for half and Florida for the other half so isn't that the best of both. Also you say its a lot of money to pay and you might not even get a job...
PTC work with airlines all over the world and the can try and get an airline to PARTLY sponsor you're cadet ship... ie.they pay some of your training cost around 20k and alt least before you start training and investing you're money in this you know you have a guaranteed job when you finish.... I dont work for them or train there have just researched them.

Cessna_Pilot

Hearing really great things about Atlantic in Cork at the moment. Both Aer Lingus and Ryanair just hired several cadets from them.

AHKO

@Cessna_Pilot

Do Atlantic Offer a Part Cadet Sponsorship by any airline????
What is the cost at Atlantic at the moment..

eddiejn

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

Hearing really great things about Atlantic in Cork at the moment. Both Aer Lingus and Ryanair just hired several cadets from them.

above companies have taken alot of ptc graduates lately too,
IMO both schools are providing a good service at the moment but alot of it is down to time taken ... i talked to one guy in atlantic who had just completed his ppl , 69 hrs between all , weather, available slots etc etc , but that s what goes with training in ireland in this climate.....
in florida you will fly almost every day , and ppl s are usually within the 40-50 hr mark... do the maths on the plane rental
As for pass rates , with ptc , they do a mock set of exams 2weeks before the real thing where the student is expect to achive 80% , if they dont , the dont sit the particular exam that module , so i would be inclined to believe pass %s

lastly , what i have seen from my time training is that its down to the student .... you will hear good and bad stories from any training school ... but those who apply themselves and make the most of the facilities and work hard for the exams leave with what they came for ... those who dont, go through the course with a negative attitude thinking that because they paid X amount that its just expected that they get through it
because you paid this amount or that amount at the end of the day its up to you the get the most from it.

my 2 cents

Lustrum

lastly , what i have seen from my time training is that its down to the student .

Precisely what he said, if you have the money and want to get done quickly, go to FTE Jerez or OAA (they'll send you to Arizona I believe), otherwise, pick the school that suits you best. I'm in Atlantic at the moment and did my PPL in 49hrs, there are some others here that are up around 80 and yet to even get a mock test, no reflection on the instructors, just some people seem to take longer to get the hang of it.

Also, I don't think it makes a difference where you get your qualifications when it comes to getting a job, after all, it will be only you and your own knowledge in the interview

!MAVERICK!

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

There should be.

I am in the process of trying to unbrainwash a young lad I know, who has been convinced by the PTC that he will walk into a job at the end of his training. They told him, that he WOULD NOT stand a chance with any other training provider, and that the PTC were THE ONLY school in Europe who supplied pilots to Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Arann, British flipping Airways to name but a few.
From the sounds of it they pretty much "guilted" him into making his parents feel that any other option would put their little boys future in severe jeopardy. And this poor kid bought into it.

I cant believe this, I was always highly skeptical of PTC with their propaganda like advertisements in Irish flying magazines and their so called high "Pass rates", I never even considered them as a half decent FTO.

But what you said is just out of the question, to try and brainwash somebody into thinking they have already secured a job with an airline is highly misleading. So many parents with large bank accounts become sucked into sending their children into these "prestigious" yet only recently established flight schools thinking everything is hunky dory for their son's/ daughter's future, after just literally handing over nearly 100,000 yoyos over the counter to these people.

Before even considering an FTO, I would make sure

1. They offer a 'pay as you go system'.

2. They have at least 15-20 years experience in training.

3- Offer reasonably priced flight & landing costs.

4 - They use decent well equipped modern aircraft.

AHKO

@ MAVERICK....

If yo had a Pilot Training College of your own would you not put an advertisement in Irish Flying Magazines to promote your college....and do you know anyone who has failed in PTC so how can you accuse there Pass Rate not to be Honest!!!!!

And how do they try to Brainwash people its a college.....Also yes if you do obtain Full/Part Sponsorship from an airline you do have a Guaranteed job when you finish training with that Airline...So another False Statement from you...

If everyone thought the same was as you by only going to a college with 15-20 years Experience in training then how is a new college meant to open or get started....and Everyone sits the same Exam at the end.....

alan85

AHKO wrote: »

@ MAVERICK....
And how do they try to Brainwash people its a college.....Also yes if you do obtain Full/Part Sponsorship from an airline you do have a Guaranteed job when you finish training with that Airline...So another False Statement from you...

I think Maverick is referring to their use of WIT and inferring it's acedemically acredited. I called up WIT to find out more and the impression I got was that PTC just rent a room from them. I'm not sure but I would find out more if going down that road. Who awards the degree and who teaches it?

You are never guaranteed a job. How could any business guarantee a job 3 years down the line? Would you get to grips with reality. An airline might promise you a sniff if you reach standard and jobs are to be filled.

Before you accuse people of false statements get a real sense of the way things work. And get some manners. You'll go nowhere in aviation without...

MightyDucks

AHKO,

You need to do a lot more research before you make a comment like that.

AHKO wrote: »

@ MAVERICK....

If yo had a Pilot Training College of your own would you not put an advertisement in Irish Flying Magazines to promote your college....and do you know anyone who has failed in PTC so how can you accuse there Pass Rate not to be Honest!!!!!

And how do they try to Brainwash people its a college.....Also yes if you do obtain Full/Part Sponsorship from an airline you do have a Guaranteed job when you finish training with that Airline...So another False Statement from you...

If everyone thought the same was as you by only going to a college with 15-20 years Experience in training then how is a new college meant to open or get started....and Everyone sits the same Exam at the end.....