Ongoing religious scandals

obplayer

robindch wrote: »

Anybody on for climbing the mountain and building a pentagram or something similar?

I'm not joking, btw

Sadly I've just been put on the waiting list for hip replacements, 'till that happens mountains are out for me.:mad:

Shrap

obplayer wrote: »

Sadly I've just been put on the waiting list for hip replacements, 'till that happens mountains are out for me.:mad:

Are you my Dad?! He'd cheerfully climb a mountain to do that, if his one remaining natural knee and corresponding hip were up to it. Often wondered if he was up here on boards and just not telling me. Would be just like him :cool:

obplayer

Shrap wrote: »

Are you my Dad?! He'd cheerfully climb a mountain to do that, if his one remaining natural knee and corresponding hip were up to it. Often wondered if he was up here on boards and just not telling me. Would be just like him :cool:

Don't think so, not anyone's dad as far as I know.

Shrap

obplayer wrote: »

Don't think so, not anyone's dad as far as I know.

Right so. You're ruled out Still, I sympathise about the hip problem. My Da is disgusted he can't charge up and down mountains at the moment. Best of luck with it.

padohaodha

Cutting down that cross was pure thuggery .plain and simple

Shrap

padohaodha wrote: »

Cutting down that cross was pure thuggery .plain and simple

Interestingly, it may have fallen down all by itself. I'm happy to see it down though, as it always disturbed me that an icon of a particular religious belief should be spoiling one of the most beautiful mountains in my country (I have the same opinion about wind turbines btw, but at least they're somewhat useful).

padohaodha

Shrap wrote: »

Interestingly, it may have fallen down all by itself. I'm happy to see it down though, as it always disturbed me that an icon of a particular religious belief should be spoiling one of the most beautiful mountains in my country (I have the same opinion about wind turbines btw, but at least they're somewhat useful).

Locals gathered money to put it up.should only be locals to take it down.agree with u about turbines though

Shrap

padohaodha wrote: »

Locals gathered money to put it up.should only be locals to take it down.

Locals may have caused it to fall down by not building it right in the first place. And as for the "right" to build any ol' crap around the place because you're local....well, there's laws about that y'know.

Me and the locals here would very much like to build more houses on land owned by us, but un/fortunately there are laws about what should/shouldn't be allowed to be seen from some beautiful amenities in our area. Therefore we are restricted - understandably to some, and to the great chagrin of others.

Hopefully these locals of your's will have to apply for planning permission to put it up again.

padohaodha

Well vast majority of thelocals here want it back up.only people I've heard say to get rid of it are those who've never actually been up there or just visit one day in the year.we live here all year around.thus we surely have a bigger Say than johnny come once in a wonders.

Shrap

padohaodha wrote: »

Well vast majority of thelocals here want it back up.only people I've heard say to get rid of it are those who've never actually been up there or just visit one day in the year.we live here all year around.thus we surely have a bigger Say than johnny come once in a wonders.

Same as the tourists on the lake I live near sure. They only come once a year at most. Why should they get any say in how many houses are lining the lake shore and surrounding hills? Oh wait. That's right...the view is for everyone and that's why there's laws about not spoiling it. We'd all like a bigger say in what we get permission to do locally, but planning permission has rules. I guess the locals didn't need those rules back in the 70's?

There's many people come to your area for the mountains. Some of them have had to bite their tongues about the inappropriate cross on that beautiful mountain, me included.

padohaodha

Whoever knocked it(and it was knocked)is not a local anyway.they must have no real problems in life if this is the issue that bothers them.I've land i cant build on either due to planning but the mountain is private land and if i owned it id seriously consider not allowing people trespass anymore if they are going to vandalise my property.

Shrap

padohaodha wrote: »

Whoever knocked it(and it was knocked)is not a local anyway.they must have no real problems in life if this is the issue that bothers them.I've land i cant build on either due to planning but the mountain is private land and if i owned it id seriously consider not allowing people trespass anymore if they are going to vandalise my property.

Well I'd take your point on that if you'd take my point that the cross is not something that would or should be given planning these days. The mountain being privately owned does not exempt it from planning, as we all know. The fact is, loads of people considered it to be a big, ugly eyesore no matter whether the majority of locals like it or not.

The person or persons who own that land wouldn't get permission for a cattle shed up there, so they shouldn't have permission for a 5 metre high symbol for a religion. How would your locals feel if there was a pentagram on the top? I think that's the point. They wouldn't like it, any more than people with no religion or other religions liked that cross.

Edit: TBH, I can imagine the culprits were a few bored locals with little else to be doing than making mischief.

padohaodha

Shrap wrote: »

Well I'd take your point on that if you'd take my point that the cross is not something that would or should be given planning these days. The mountain being privately owned does not exempt it from planning, as we all know. The fact is, loads of people considered it to be a big, ugly eyesore no matter whether the majority of locals like it or not.

The person or persons who own that land wouldn't get permission for a cattle shed up there, so they shouldn't have permission for a 5 metre high symbol for a religion. How would your locals feel if there was a pentagram on the top? I think that's the point. They wouldn't like it, any more than people with no religion or other religions liked that cross.

Edit: TBH, I can imagine the culprits were a few bored locals with little else to be doing than making mischief.

Tbh no local here would be arsed climbing it with an angle grinder.that was someone on a mission.im not a practicing catholic but i see the succour the cross gives to the local auld ones.
If one thinks its ok to cut down the cross then yer man in Dublin had every right to destroy those monet paintings cos he didnt like them.if they dont put the cross up again its open season on all cultural monuments.its a cross in a field that is wanted by locals.should be a plebiscite here and be a local choice.thats my opinion anyway.i respect your opinion but i think we are never going to agree.but thats democracy:-)

Shrap

padohaodha, I don't know if you saw these posts by SpaceTime in AH on the subject (and all his interesting posts in between), but I'm totally prepared to believe it was metal fatigue that caused it. Have a look at these posts:


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93142589&postcount=84


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93143097&postcount=121

Shrap

padohaodha wrote: »

If one thinks its ok to cut down the cross then yer man in Dublin had every right to destroy those monet paintings cos he didnt like them.if they dont put the cross up again its open season on all cultural monuments.

I don't think many think it was ok to cut it down (if it was knocked...) but now it's down, a lot of people are understandably a bit happy about it. Plus, it's already open season on monuments/statues made of metal. All across the country they're being robbed.

padohaodha

Shrap wrote: »

I don't think many think it was ok to cut it down (if it was knocked...) but now it's down, a lot of people are understandably a bit happy about it. Plus, it's already open season on monuments/statues made of metal. All across the country they're being robbed.

Ha ha fair point.....as i said ure entitled to ur view.still should be up to locals what to do next.people here understandably angry.

Shrap

padohaodha wrote: »

Ha ha fair point.....as i said ure entitled to ur view.still should be up to locals what to do next.people here understandably angry.

I really think you should mention to a few that it might have been metal fatigue. SpaceTime seems to know what he's talking about and from the one pic of the felled cross, it would have caused much more mess if it was cut you'd think, and it's so close to the bottom. Have a look at his posts! Anyhow, you're entitled to your view too of course! With full planning permission that is :pac:

Off to bed, night!

padohaodha

Shrap wrote: »

I really think you should mention to a few that it might have been metal fatigue. SpaceTime seems to know what he's talking about and from the one pic of the felled cross, it would have caused much more mess if it was cut you'd think, and it's so close to the bottom. Have a look at his posts! Anyhow, you're entitled to your view too of course! With full planning permission that is :pac:

Off to bed, night!

Good night ha ha heading up the mountain now to put up a massive Kerry version of the mosque in Riyadh.good luck.

kylith

padohaodha wrote: »

Ha ha fair point.....as i said ure entitled to ur view.still should be up to locals what to do next.people here understandably angry.

Personally I'd say it's up to the landowner what to do next. If they want to erect another cross on the site there's nothing to stop them applying for planning permission.

Personally I'd prefer to see a more secular summit marker/memorial for those who lost their lives on the mountain. Speaking purely aesthetically that cross was hideous.

I kind of really hope it blew over, just to watch some of the people blaming 'evil secularists' back peddle.

Peregrinus

kylith wrote: »

Personally I'd prefer to see a more secular summit marker/memorial for those who lost their lives on the mountain. Speaking purely aesthetically that cross was hideous.

A cairn would be the traditional summit marker. Whether that's secular is something that lies in the eye of the beholder, I think.

Shrap

Peregrinus wrote: »

A cairn would be the traditional summit marker. Whether that's secular is something that lies in the eye of the beholder, I think.

A cairn would certainly be more beautiful, and like with other mountain tops, people rebuild it all the time. It's interactive and inclusive.

robindch

Shrap wrote: »

A cairn would certainly be more beautiful [...]

Perhaps fifteen/twenty miles from Carauntwohill lies the rather splendid mountain-pair known as The Paps, clearly visible in their finest aspect from the main Killarney to Cork road though google's image search isn't producing exactly that.

Anyhow, imagine the following photos combined - the luscious, inviting slopes of the lower picture, with the curiously large cairns from the upper picture and you might get an idea of what they actually look like from teh right angle. And why they were associated in ancient times with the figure of the mother goddess. Not sure how you'd make these, uh, interactive

Shrap

robindch wrote: »

And why they were associated in ancient times with the figure of the mother goddess. Not sure how you'd make these, uh, interactive

Ha ha, perfect! Might suit everybody, considering the god-like pap's proportions could only be interactive for a second suitably sized deity.

Hoagy

"INDEPENDENT TD MICHAEL Healy-Rae has condemned whoever cut down the iconic cross at the summit of Carrauntoohil.

The Kerry TD told TheJournal.ie that whoever was involved in the incident was “an anti-Christ”.

“It was an outrageous act. The only person that would have committed this crime is some sort of an anti-Christ,” Healy-Rae said.

“The person that committed this act is the lowest of the low life, such an effort was made by local people to erect it.”

Healy Rae said about 100 people were involved in the erection of the cross, adding: “I take comfort in the fact that 1000 people will be there when the next cross is erected.”

To hell with the person that cut it down … Right-thinking people will see that a new cross is erected."

http://www.thejournal.ie/carrauntoohil-cross-1799228-Nov2014/

Shrap

"A commemorative plaque was also stolen." Ah feck it. :mad: I was SO hoping it was metal fatigue. :mad:

robindch

Shrap wrote: »

"A commemorative plaque was also stolen." Ah feck it. :mad: I was SO hoping it was metal fatigue. :mad:

Uh, why can't it be a miracle? If I was Jesus, I wouldn't like to see people erecting tasteless monuments to the thing that killed me. Stands to reason, that does.

Still, at least people haven't said they'd take the law into their own hands, like one Ballinspittle resident said he would in 1985, the last time somebody was prosecuted for unbecoming treatment of a religious monument. In this case, the vandals were three christians of some other denomination:

#irelandintheeighties

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1985/Three-Men-Charged-in-Attack-on-Reputed-Moving-Statue/id-2ef193ede3852971f600a1fbb1448da2

AP wrote:

PORTLAOISE, IRELAND PORTLAOISE, Ireland (AP) _ Three men were arraigned Friday on vandalism charges, accused of smashing a statue of the Virgin Mary as three Roman Catholic nuns and about 30 worshipers watched in horror. The statue has attracted hundreds of thousands of pilgrims since last July when two women claimed to have seen it sway gently. Others later said they had seen the statue's hands and feet move.

Police had to restrain a crowd gathered outside the courthouse as the three accused men walked inside holding Bibles. Two of them read Bibles while waiting for their cases to be called. The three, Roderick Murphy, 36, Robert Draper, 33, and Anthony Fowler, 24, were arraigned on charges of causing malicious damage in connection with Thursday's attack at a roadside grotto near the village of Ballinspittle. They were released on bail equivalent to $960 each, pending a further hearing.

Murphy was described in court as a truck driver, Fowler as a cleaner and Draper as a ''Christian preacher.'' They did not mention their religious denomination and were not available for comment after the arraignment. The trio was arrested a few hours after three men smashed the head, halo and hands of a life-size concrete statue of the Virgin Mary with a hammer, ax and iron bar.

During the attack, one of the worshipers shouted, ''You must be Satan to do something like this 3/8'' One of the vandals shouted back, ''You are worse to be adoring false gods.'' Since the reports of movement, the local Roman Catholic bishop urged caution about the claims. A scientist said the movements were optical illusions caused by the statue's gray background and glare from the illuminated halo.

At Ballinspittle, the village's grotto committee said the statue would be repaired within days and that prayer - which has gone on virtually around the clock since the first claim of movement - should continue at the site. Maurice O'Donnell, the sculptor who made the statue in 1954, said he was confident he could repair it. The chairman of the grotto committee, Stephen Nolan, said: ''People from all over the country have been telephoning here all night to convey their sorrow. This will not stop worshipers coming to Ballinspittle.''

Another committee member, Dennis O'Reilly, said, ''If we caught the vandals, they wouldn't walk again. We should take the law into our own hands.''

Shrap

I vaguely remember my folks chuckling about that one alright. I'm still holding out for the commemorative plaque having been jolted off it's moorings and it be found at the bottom of the cliff sometime in the future. However, I would love it even more if the vandals were caught and they turned out to be Kerry separatists determined to shake off the shackles of "The Mainland". Bit of a long shot perhaps...


Edit: About crosses, yes. The cross as a representation of Christianity is rather like calling a new style of harpoon after Steve Irwin. Tacky.

Kivaro

robindch wrote: »

Anyhow, imagine the following photos combined - the luscious, inviting slopes of the lower picture, with the curiously large cairns from the upper picture and you might get an idea of what they actually look like from teh right angle. And why they were associated in ancient times with the figure of the mother goddess. Not sure how you'd make these, uh, interactive

And if you put a crucifix on both hills, then it would look like pierced nipples (at the right angle).

That's just sick Rob, sick.

Opens Photoshop .......

robindch

Yiz can all stand down the outrage and upset. The cross is to be stuck up again "as soon as possible".

http://www.killarneytoday.com/mountain-cross-to-be-re-erected/

Killarney Today wrote:

THE cross severed by vandals at the summit of Carrauntoohil is to be re-erected as soon as possible, it has been confirmed. The MacGillycuddy Reeks Mountain Access Forum, made up of representatives of all the stakeholders involved in the area, has met to discuss the crux and it was decided that the cross would be repaired and re-erected as a matter of priority.

The group, facilitated by South Kerry Development Partnership, includes local landowners, community and business groups, National Park and Wildlife Service staff, Kerry County Council, Department of the Environment representatives, community groups, guides and climbers. It is not known when exactly the cross was cut down but it was discovered by climbers on the peak early on Saturday morning. The matter is currently being investigated by gardaí in Killarney.

At the forum meeting in Killorglin, the group condemned the cutting of the cross describing it as “an act of sheer vandalism.” Since news of the damage to the cross emerged, members of the forum have been inundated with offers to help re-instate the steel structure from both local, national and overseas people and companies.

“We will look at all options open with regard to undertaking the work and decide on the best course of action to achieve the safe and proper reinstatement of the cross,” said group spokesman Seán de Buitléar. The group is to put in place a long-term management plan for the Reeks, enabling the mountain range to be sustainably used for recreation purposes by all while recognising that the land on the mountains is in private ownership.

Valmont

I'd be willing to bet a sizeable sum it was one of the A&A regulars. You're probably being watched now. Seriously though, vandalising shrines isn't the sort of thing any atheist wants to be doing if they want their lack-of-belief to be taken seriously. Blowing up Nelson's column didn't get the IRA anywhere either!