Ongoing religious scandals

Shrap

The day Mary Lou stops lying blatantly to cover for her boss, military style (Don't ask, don't tell), I'll be one scared woman. Don't knock it. I say leave Gerry where he is or we'll have our Irish answer to Maggie Thatcher going head to head with Enda...and you know who'll win that one.

Banbh

you seem to welcome those who refuse to condemn rape and murder

The 'seeming' is in your own imagination so don't burden me with it. Also 'refuse to condemn rape and murder' is another bizarre invention. My cycling club has refused to condemn ethnic cleansing.

Much better to oppose Sinn Féin, if that is your wish, with economic policies for that is the sole reason they are increasing in popularity with those who are bearing the brunt of the austerity fraud.

Hotblack Desiato

Banbh wrote: »

The 'seeming' is in your own imagination so don't burden me with it.

Right.

One day soon the tipping point will be reached and we may get a new and secular republic.

sounds like an endorsement to me, although a severely misplaced one. SF will be pro-RCC if they get in.

Also 'refuse to condemn rape and murder' is another bizarre invention. My cycling club has refused to condemn ethnic cleansing.

If members of your cycling club had been involved in it, then it would be important would it not?
You know exactly what I'm getting at here.
Who collected Garda McCabe's killers when they were released?
Sinn Fein are completely opposed to intimidation, beatings, murder, rape, robbery, when it's not IRA members doing it.
When it is, they equivocate or go very silent.

Much better to oppose Sinn Féin, if that is your wish, with economic policies for that is the sole reason they are increasing in popularity with those who are bearing the brunt of the austerity fraud.

Their economic policies are indeed crazy, but that's not what worries me the most about them.

Nodin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Sinn Fein have even less morals than the RCC. I'm very disappointed by your post Banbh as you seem to welcome those who refuse to condemn rape and murder entering government?

Where did SF refuse to condemn rape?

Hotblack Desiato

You may have heard about a woman who was raped as a teenager she's been in the news lately.

Allegedly she was raped by a member of the 'republican movement'

Other members of the 'republican movement' took it upon themselves to interrogate her in a kangaroo court

The leader of the 'republican movement' at the time, who is also the leader today, pretends to know nothing about it, just like he did with his own brother.

TDs of the 'republican movement' row in behind their Leader Who Can Never Be Wrong About Anything.

The difference between the pope and Gerry Adams is that the pope is sometimes fallible.

Nodin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You may have (...............) between the pope and Gerry Adams is that the pope is sometimes fallible.

You stated

Sinn Fein have even less morals than the RCC. I'm very disappointed by your post Banbh as you seem to welcome those who refuse to condemn rape and murder entering government?

Did SF refuse to condemn rape/a specific rape, or are you just firing out hyperbole for the craic?

jank

Banbh wrote: »

The 'seeming' is in your own imagination so don't burden me with it. Also 'refuse to condemn rape and murder' is another bizarre invention. My cycling club has refused to condemn ethnic cleansing.

Much better to oppose Sinn Féin, if that is your wish, with economic policies for that is the sole reason they are increasing in popularity with those who are bearing the brunt of the austerity fraud.

You mean the austerity which has turned Ireland around from the brink and where we have the highest growth rates in Europe... that austerity?

I remember in another post I wrote that political allegiance is much like religious devotion.

I was lambasted for that post. Seems I am now vindicated with this scandal taking centre stage. Sinn Fein supporters are doing their very best to live up to it.

Hotblack Desiato

Nodin wrote: »

Did SF refuse to condemn rape/a specific rape, or are you just firing out hyperbole for the craic?

They are disputing the testimony of a rape victim to protect Gerry Adams.

If the rapist in question was a bishop and not a 'volunteer' their reaction would be rather different.

Nodin

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They are disputing the testimony of a rape victim to protect Gerry Adams.

"they" (a lovely vague term) are not disputing her testimony with regards the rape.

Again - Did SF refuse to condemn rape/a specific rape, or are you just firing out hyperbole for the craic?

jank

Nodin wrote: »

"they" (a lovely vague term) are not disputing her testimony with regards the rape.

Again - Did SF refuse to condemn rape/a specific rape, or are you just firing out hyperbole for the craic?

Sinn Fein/IRA are a master at playing with words and it seems you know a trick or too yourself.

'They' are not confirming it either even when asked directly.

Gerry Adams had the opportunity in the Dail on Wednesday to clear the air and condemn the actions that Sinn Fein/IRA perpetrated against her and other victims of abuse by Republicans.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/kenny-in-angry-exchanges-with-adams-in-dáil-after-cahill-talks-1.1972772

The cult of Adams and Sinn Fein/IRA lives on and even would be atheists are blind followers.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Sinn Fein/IRA are a master at playing with words and it seems you know a trick or too yourself.
..............

So you've nothing either.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

So you've nothing either.

More republican whataboutery. If someone from the Iona institute said what you just said you would be onto it like a fly on $hit. However the cult of Irish republicanism must be protected!

Well it is now emerging that's Sinn Fein/IRA moved 10 abusers south of the border. Gerry Adams should step down as leader of Sinn Fein and cooperate fully with both the PSNI and the Gardai. Mary Lou was quite critical in her condemnation of the RCC however she seems to be silent on the current issues as are many Shinners on this board. Amazing hypocrisy.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

More republican (...............)hypocrisy.

More hyperbole, some shifting of the goal posts, but nothing to back up the original statement.

jank

So Nodin, do you condemn these actions and what consequences should Sinn Fein/IRA face in light off moving known abusers around the country. You have been awfully quiet on this issue as you are normally pontificating from the highest roof top about child abuse in the RCC.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

So Nodin, do you condemn these actions .

What actions specifically? If you mean the rape of this young woman, yes I do indeed condemn it, and would have thought that went without saying.

jank wrote: »

and what consequences should Sinn Fein/IRA face in light off moving known abusers around the country.

Your 'concern' for the victims is touching.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

What actions specifically? If you mean the rape of this young woman, yes I do indeed condemn it, and would have thought that went without saying.

Do you therefore condemn the cover up that Sinn Fein/IRA perpetrated?
Do you condemn Sinn Fein/IRA moving would be abusers South of the border like the RCC used to shift their own problems out of sight?
Do you condemn the shifting story from Gerry Adams and what he did and what he knew?
Do you think his position as leader of the party is tenable.
Do condemn what he said when he said that 'abuse victims' started to enjoy it?

Banbh

I 'condemn' the using of this woman by the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, the O'Brien media and RTE in try and smear Gerry Adams. The kangaroo trial in Dail Eireann and the media has failed in its sole objective - to stop the rise of Sinn Fein and the eclipsing of the FFGLB party.

Two members of the Republican Movement had sexual relations over the period of a year. One was underage. In the absence of a police force acceptable to their community and to BOTH parties, the woman subsequently complained to the IRA for redress. She was not believed initially but following inquiries acceptable to all parties, she was. The perpetrator was threatened with death or exile from Northern Ireland.

Later, the split in the staunchly republican Cahill family (Joe was a founder of the Provisional IRA, and a sister of Mairia was/is an active member of the movement). Mairia is/was a member of the dissident RNU campaigning against the Good Friday Agreement and what they regard as the Gerry Adams 'betrayal'. Her aunt Eilis O'Hanlon who is handling her current campaign, is a member of the anti-Sinn Fein, Independent Newspapers group.

There is little in this campaign other than the worst of smear politics. But as the recent polls have shown, its not working. If there are cases to be answered they should be dealt with in the courts and all information should be given to the PSNI or the Gardaí. This is the view expressed by Gerry Adams and it is the only honest one.

recedite

Its high time she went to the police or STFU.

recedite

jank wrote: »

So Nodin, do you condemn these actions and what consequences should Sinn Fein/IRA face in light off moving known abusers around the country.

It pales into insignificance compared to the "main activities" that SF/IRA (including the Cahill family) were involved in.
That is the difference between this and the RCC scandals. Also the fact that SF/IRA have never claimed to be a moral authority for all of humanity.

jank

Banbh wrote: »

I 'condemn' the using of this woman by the Taoiseach, Micheál Martin, the O'Brien media and RTE in try and smear Gerry Adams. The kangaroo trial in Dail Eireann and the media has failed in its sole objective - to stop the rise of Sinn Fein and the eclipsing of the FFGLB party.

Two members of the Republican Movement had sexual relations over the period of a year. One was underage. In the absence of a police force acceptable to their community and to BOTH parties, the woman subsequently complained to the IRA for redress. She was not believed initially but following inquiries acceptable to all parties, she was. The perpetrator was threatened with death or exile from Northern Ireland.

Later, the split in the staunchly republican Cahill family (Joe was a founder of the Provisional IRA, and a sister of Mairia was/is an active member of the movement). Mairia is/was a member of the dissident RNU campaigning against the Good Friday Agreement and what they regard as the Gerry Adams 'betrayal'. Her aunt Eilis O'Hanlon who is handling her current campaign, is a member of the anti-Sinn Fein, Independent Newspapers group.

There is little in this campaign other than the worst of smear politics. But as the recent polls have shown, its not working. If there are cases to be answered they should be dealt with in the courts and all information should be given to the PSNI or the Gardaí. This is the view expressed by Gerry Adams and it is the only honest one.

Tis all a conspiracy I suppose. The cult of Irish republicanism alive and well in 2014.

Also, I almost spat out my smoothy when you had 'Gerry Adams' and 'honest' in the same sentance.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

Its high time she went to the police or STFU.

Maíria Cahill has been to the police already and the Public Prosecution Service has announced that it's going to review three cases linked to her alleged rape:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-29704847

Banbh

Jank: I almost spat out my smoothy when you had 'Gerry Adams' and 'honest' in the same sentance.

Spit away. I will still engage in discussion on the issues if I choose.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Do you therefore condemn the cover up that Sinn Fein/IRA perpetrated?
Do you condemn Sinn Fein/IRA moving would be abusers South of the border like the RCC used to shift their own problems out of sight?
Do you condemn the shifting story from Gerry Adams and what he did and what he knew?
Do you think his position as leader of the party is tenable.
Do condemn what he said when he said that 'abuse victims' started to enjoy it?

Afaik, people were not moved, they were forcibly exiled. I've no idea where.

No agenda at all.

There's no evidence that he said that.

Be honest jank. You couldn't give a rats ass about maria cahill.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

Maíria Cahill has been to the police already...
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-29704847

From the link;

All charges were dropped and the accused rapist acquitted after Ms Cahill withdrew her evidence.

While "witness intimidation" was a possibility, if it occurred it seems unlikely that it would have originated from the accused rapist himself, given all the circumstances and family connections.
Therefore the whole thing emerging now looks political, IMO.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Afaik, people were not moved, they were forcibly exiled. I've no idea where.

Ah, another classic dance with words there. Like the money was 'resting' in my account, sir. They were 'exiled' not moved....

Where were they 'exiled' to? A desert island where they could do no harm or to the south among the general population who were oblivious to their past? Were the Gardai given notice that known abusers were going to be re-settled?

Nodin wrote: »

There's no evidence that he said that.

Maria Cahill claimed as much that this happened at the Sinn Fein/IRA kangaroo court, do you believe her or do you still worship at the alter of Gerry Adams?

And since you have not condemned any of the actions of Sinn Fein/IRA then I take it you have no problem with their actions on this. Amazing double standard by you. If this was a religious organisation you would be the first to condemn.

jank

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/sinn-fein-always-try-to-discredit-victims-of-ira-crimes-30693277.html

The first characteristic of the Sinn Fein leadership's response is that crimes committed by members of what it refers to as "the Republican Movement" are to be treated differently than crimes committed by others.

We know that Mairia Cahill says she was raped in 1997 by a prominent member of the IRA. We know that in January 1999 Eamon Collins was murdered shortly after he had given evidence against a well-known IRA member in defamation proceedings. We know that in January 2005 Robert McCartney was murdered by an IRA gang because he came to the aid of a friend who had been attacked in a pub in the Short Strand in Belfast. We know that in April 2005 Joe Rafferty from Dublin's south inner city was murdered in Dublin by a prominent IRA member because he had refused to be intimidated by that member who had worked on a number of election campaigns for Sinn Fein.

All of these crimes committed since the IRA ceasefire resulted in no credible steps being taken by the leadership of Sinn Fein to bring the perpetrators of these crimes to justice. The reason is that the leadership of Sinn Fein does not believe that crimes committed by members of the IRA at any time, whether before or after the ceasefire, are the same as other crimes.

In this self-protecting Sinn Fein world, the rape of Mairia Cahill and the murders of Eamon Collins, Robert McCartney and Joe Rafferty are not crimes that should be properly investigated; nor are they crimes they wish to see resolved so that the perpetrators can be brought to justice. Sinn Fein does not want them investigated or solved because they were carried out by members of "the Republican movement" who deserve to be protected and supported by the Sinn Fein leadership, in the same way as that leadership supported the killers of Garda Jerry McCabe after they were released from prison.

Having made the decision that the perpetrators of these crimes should be treated differently to others, the second characteristic of the Sinn Fein leadership in responding to these serious crimes is to deny involvement by "the Republican Movement".

We know that originally Mairia Cahill's allegations were denied by the Sinn Fein leadership, with it only recently accepting that she was subjected to an IRA kangaroo court inquiry. After Eamon Collins was beaten and stabbed to death in 1999 near his home in Newry, Gerry Adams stated the killing was "regrettable" but added that Collins had "many enemies in many, many, many places", thereby suggesting that his murder may not have been carried out by the IRA.

After the murder of Robert McCartney there was an elaborate and extensive cover-up and clean-up of the area outside the pub in Belfast where he was murdered in order to prevent a proper investigation. At the time the Sinn Fein leadership stated that "no-one involved acted as a Republican or on behalf of Republicans". The purpose behind that statement was to suggest that the murder had not been carried out with the sanction or authority of the IRA leadership.

A similar defence was made in respect of the murder of Joe Rafferty when Sinn Fein representatives told Joe Rafferty's family that his murder had not been sanctioned by the IRA leadership. The fact of the matter, however, was that he was murdered by a member of the IRA who had worked on numerous election campaigns for Sinn Fein.

It should also be remembered that after the killing of Jerry McCabe the IRA initially denied any involvement.

The third characteristic of the Sinn Fein response is to circle the wagons and defend their own. The people involved in the IRA kangaroo court that subjected Mairia Cahill to further abuse were described as "decent people" who were simply trying to help. The reality is that they were intimidating her and trying to brush her complaints under the carpet.

Similarly, in the cases of Eamon Collins, Robert McCartney and Joe Rafferty, the Sinn Fein leadership had as its primary objective the protection of the perpetrators who were part of the "Republican movement". By suggesting that these murders were either not carried out by the IRA, or that they were unsanctioned acts of the IRA, the hope of Sinn Fein was to deflect attention from the IRA as an institution and suggest that these were isolated events that did not emanate from "the Republican Movement".

A fourth and really reprehensible characteristic of Sinn Fein in relation to these crimes is its attempts to discredit the victim. We have seen recently how the leadership tried to discredit Mairia Cahill by undermining her story. They accept it in part but refuse to accept that part which suggests knowledge and awareness on the part of the Sinn Fein leadership.

After Eamon Collins was murdered a local Sinn Fein councillor stated "He will not be missed. I have no feelings for Eamon Collins." Collins was so brutally murdered whilst out for a walk that initially it was thought he had been hit by a car. When it was discovered that his tongue had been cut out it was clear this was no car accident. After Joe Rafferty was murdered, certain people publicly and falsely suggested that he had been involved in drug-dealing. Although we do not know who spread these rumours, the likelihood, based on what we know about his murder, is that these lies were spread by people seeking to protect the member of "the Republican Movement" who murdered Rafferty.

The final and most important characteristic of the Sinn Fein response is to get the story off the news agenda as quickly as possible. They succeeded in this with Eamon Collins, Robert McCartney and Joe Rafferty. People have forgotten about those heinous murders that were committed after the conflict concluded. The rape of Mairia Cahill, however, is not going away as quickly as the leadership had hoped. The Sinn Fein leadership has portrayed itself as seeking to represent the weak and the victimised in society. Its response to Mairia Cahill, however, reveals that it is prepared to let the story stay in the news rather than doing the responsible and decent thing which would be to stop protecting its own and start believing credible victims.

Politicians have a duty to hold Sinn Fein to account for its response to these heinous crimes. This is a party that wants to lead the next Irish Government; that wishes to have control of the Department of Justice where it will be responsible for the gardai and our criminal justice system. No doubt Sinn Fein would also like to be given ministerial responsibility for the Department of Children. It would be a gross dereliction of duty if politicians from other parties did not seek to point out Sinn Fein's appalling record on justice and victims of abuse.

A good article explaining the methods of Sinn Fein cover ups and how never ever ever, they are at fault. They brand themselves as guardians of social justice. Their record of the type of justice they dish out speaks for itself.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

A good article explaining the methods of Sinn Fein cover ups ...........

From the paper that a while back stated that for too long it had carried the burden of battling Sinn Fein and it was time the parties went after them more aggressively.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

From the paper that a while back stated that for too long it had carried the burden of battling Sinn Fein and it was time the parties went after them more aggressively.

Still dancing the to the Sinn Fein/IRA tune I see.

Do you care to condemn Gerry Adams at all? You silence is deafening if not utterly predictable. Do you not find it ironic that yourself a staunch atheist still worships on the alter of Irish Republicanism?

I have pressed you a number of times on this issue and have refused to answer me, so I presume and the rest of the boards community will attest that you have no problem whatsoever with how Sinn Fein/IRA are handling this case and how it handled abusers in the past. Gerry Adams has much in common with Cardinal Brady it seems.

SebBerkovich

jank wrote: »

Sinn Fein/IRA .

Well that phrase is certainly a blast from the past...

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Still dancing the to the Sinn Fein/IRA tune I see.

Do you care to condemn Gerry Adams at all? .

Dear o dear.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66655727&postcount=75

jank wrote: »

I have pressed you a number of times on this issue and have refused to answer me, so I presume and the rest of the boards community will attest that you have no problem whatsoever with how Sinn Fein/IRA are handling this case and how it handled abusers in the past. Gerry Adams has much in common with Cardinal Brady it seems.

National school. Jaysus that was a long time ago.