Ongoing religious scandals

qrrgprgua

Galvasean wrote: »

Why catholic specifically? Why not one of the many other forms of Christianity?
There is a lot more to being Catholic than simply believing in Christ.

Well I have lived in orthodox monasteries in Romania and Greek... No Pope Benedict there... Pretty hostile to Papacy... But their faith and core teachings were very similar to Catholic teaching.. I love eastern orthodoxy, but I also love western latin rite, into which I was born.

robindch

5uspect wrote: »

On the 6.5% statistic, it most likely comes from the Report by Commission of Investigation into Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin:
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504

Thanks for that -- this could well have been the bit I was looking for; will check in more depth shortly. Unfortunately, I never kept note of which documents fully substantiated the ~6.5% claim and the original post(s) which brought this to light are buried deeply in A+A somewhere <sigh>

robindch

5uspect wrote: »

Never mind that the Vatican now admit over 4000 cases of abuse in last decade:

Meanwhile, in the USA, church officials pay out $144 million in over 600 settlements last year (an increase of 20% over the 2010 figure of 505 settlements):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/us-catholic-officials-field-nearly-600-clergy-abuse-claims-pay-out-144-million-in-2011/2012/04/10/gIQArlSd8S_story.html

Penn

So, the priest who accidentally showed gay porn pics at a meeting for parents of communion children is having a real case of bad luck. His chapel was broken into. And the only thing taken.... was his laptop.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/04/12/the-story-that-keeps-on-giving/

Wonder why someone targeted his specific laptop so soon after what happened.....

robindch

Penn wrote: »

Wonder why someone targeted his specific laptop [...]

'specially when the porn was on the USB key!

Corkfeen

Penn wrote: »

So, the priest who accidentally showed gay porn pics at a meeting for parents of communion children is having a real case of bad luck. His chapel was broken into. And the only thing taken.... was his laptop.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/04/12/the-story-that-keeps-on-giving/

Wonder why someone targeted his specific laptop so soon after what happened.....

Somebody clearly wanted the hd material....

dmw07

Penn wrote: »

So, the priest who accidentally showed gay porn pics at a meeting for parents of communion children is having a real case of bad luck. His chapel was broken into. And the only thing taken.... was his laptop.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/04/12/the-story-that-keeps-on-giving/

Wonder why someone targeted his specific laptop so soon after what happened.....

ONION: NEWSFLASH

Garda (Irish for F**kin idiot) are questioning every other priest within a 69 mile radius. The material is sure to turn up soon.

With the help of god obviously.

Hotblack Desiato

qrrgprgua wrote: »

There are abusers and potential abusers EVERYWHERE!!. as long as man exists.. good and bad will also exist.

Excluding men with normal healthy sexual appetites from ministry, though, isn't going to help. I've no doubt that some men who entered the church did so in the hope that it would help them suppress their abnormal desires.

However, my major beef with the RCC, and I suspect that of many others, isn't that individuals did wrong. As you say, individuals in all walks of life do wrong. What is sickening about the RCC is the institutional cover-up of wrongdoing and the shielding of the perpetrators from justice.

If a Bishop knows about abuse and does not report it, he is committing a serious crime and he knows who will be prosecuted and sentenced.

There are bishops serving today who knew about abuse and didn't report it. There is at least one prominent member of the hierarchy who heard the testimony of victims (unreported to the Gardai) and swore them to silence, knowing that this would shield the perpetrator from justice.

The fact that not one single case of fresh abuse has been reported in the last 10 years in Ireland goes to show just that.

This is irrelevant when the legacy of past abuse is still being denied, justice is still not being done and victims are still being obstructed in seeking compensation.

5uspect

robindch wrote: »

Thanks for that -- this could well have been the bit I was looking for; will check in more depth shortly. Unfortunately, I never kept note of which documents fully substantiated the ~6.5% claim and the original post(s) which brought this to light are buried deeply in A+A somewhere <sigh>

I also came across these numbers for the US.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/USCCB_Yearly_Data_on_Accused_Priests.htm
Percentages here:
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/data.htm#accused_priests

The U.S. bishops have reported receiving allegations of abuse by 6,115 priests in 1950-2011, or 5.6% of the 109,694 U.S. priests active since 1950.

After the March 2009 release of audit documents by the NH AG, the names of 74 accused Manchester priests are known, or over 8.9% of the 831 diocesan priests, which extrapolates to 9,768 nationally

Covington diocese states that 9.6% of its priests have been accused, which extrapolates to 10,531 nationally

Over 10% of Providence RI priests have been accused, which extrapolates to over 10,969 nationally

Richard Sipe estimates that 9% of U.S. priests have offended, which extrapolates to 9,872 priests nationally

Delirium

Priests 'treated like imbeciles'

Catholic priests in Ireland were treated like imbeciles during a Vatican probe into the clerical child abuse crisis that rocked the country, it has been claimed.

Father Sean McDonagh criticised the investigation and maintained processes used by Rome when examining complaints about clergy were appalling.

The Columban Father, a founding member of the liberal Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), described the publishing of a seven-page summary of a report from the unprecedented Vatican probe - known as an apostolic visitation - as incompetent.

Sarky

You know, I could actually see a schism happening in the not too distant future. Most catholics here clearly don't care about what the vatican says or orders, and it certainly can't deal with heretics the way it used to back in the day. I shall have to stock up on popcorn.

Delirium

Sarky wrote: »

You know, I could actually see a schism happening in the not too distant future. Most catholics here clearly don't care about what the vatican says or orders, and it certainly can't deal with heretics the way it used to back in the day. I shall have to stock up on popcorn.

Would have to agree with you. Was listening to liveline yesterday as they were discussing the survey regarding people not agreeing with a lot of the RCC policies/beliefs.

I was surprised with how many older people rang in to say they had left the church due to the abuse scandals, attitude to women/gays etc.

Penn

koth wrote: »

Would have to agree with you. Was listening to liveline yesterday as they were discussing the survey regarding people not agreeing with a lot of the RCC policies/beliefs.

I was surprised with how many older people rang in to say they had left the church due to the abuse scandals, attitude to women/gays etc.

I'd say at least 75% of people in Ireland (well, adults anyway) either know someone or are related to someone who is gay. The RCC constantly saying "Homosexuality is immoral and leads to a downfall of society" etc is like saying to each person "Think of that homosexual person you know.... the one that's always friendly to you.... helped you out a few times.... wouldn't harm a fly.... really polite and is generally a good person.... well they're evil and are going to burn in Hell"

kylith

Sarky wrote: »

You know, I could actually see a schism happening in the not too distant future. Most catholics here clearly don't care about what the vatican says or orders, and it certainly can't deal with heretics the way it used to back in the day. I shall have to stock up on popcorn.

koth wrote: »

Would have to agree with you. Was listening to liveline yesterday as they were discussing the survey regarding people not agreeing with a lot of the RCC policies/beliefs.

I was surprised with how many older people rang in to say they had left the church due to the abuse scandals, attitude to women/gays etc.

I agree. Escpecially with the way that Mr.-Fr. Flannery has been treated after pushing for reform, women priests, some kind of sanity in the RCC. I hope he keeps fighting and the RCC keeps coming down harder on him. That'll be the impetus for the people who agree with him to break from the Orthodox RCC.

I'm actually finding the prospect exciting. Schisms are something you read about in history; it would be very interesting to see one unfold.

Penn wrote: »

I'd say at least 75% of people in Ireland (well, adults anyway) either know someone or are related to someone who is gay. The RCC constantly saying "Homosexuality is immoral and leads to a downfall of society" etc is like saying to each person "Think of that homosexual person you know.... the one that's always friendly to you.... helped you out a few times.... wouldn't harm a fly.... really polite and is generally a good person.... well they're evil and are going to burn in Hell"

True. It was easy to demonise homosexuals when they had to hide away. Now it's no longer illegal and socially accepted what a lot of Christians are being told is 'You know your son/grandson/daughter/granddaughter? The tiny baby you held in your arms? They're evil and they're going to burn'. Most, good, decent, people won't stand for their family members being treated like that.

robindch

kylith wrote: »

Schisms are something you read about in history; it would be very interesting to see one unfold.

There are minischisms all the time, and there's already an independent catholic church in Ireland, albeit a tiddly one:

http://www.bishoppatbuckley.co.uk/

And while he's been condemned by the Vatican, it seems that the long arm of secular law wants to have a word with him too:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/charges-over-sham-marriages-are-a-plot-to-silence-me-claims-rebel-priest-pat-buckley-16101929.html

Penn

kylith wrote: »

True. It was easy to demonise homosexuals when they had to hide away. Now it's no longer illegal and socially accepted what a lot of Christians are being told is 'You know your son/grandson/daughter/granddaughter? The tiny baby you held in your arms? They're evil and they're going to burn'. Most, good, decent, people won't stand for their family members being treated like that.

It's like that great article that was linked to here a few days ago where a very Christian mother who was completely against homosexuality found out her son was gay because of a school project he had to do and was completely turned around on the subject.

When it's Christians Vs Homosexuals but some Christians discover that their loved ones play for the other team (pun intended), most Christians will realise that they don't really want to play anymore.

Corkfeen

koth wrote: »

Would have to agree with you. Was listening to liveline yesterday as they were discussing the survey regarding people not agreeing with a lot of the RCC policies/beliefs.

I was surprised with how many older people rang in to say they had left the church due to the abuse scandals, attitude to women/gays etc.

I was surprised too actually but they inevitably ended up with a woman who in essence said f_uck off and keep out of the church's business if you don't agree with it.... :mad:

Hotblack Desiato

Penn wrote: »

When it's Christians Vs Homosexuals but some Christians discover that their loved ones play for the other team (pun intended), most Christians will realise that they don't really want to play anymore.

Funny how atheists don't usually get that reaction when they 'come out' - hostility, ignorance and denial are still the order of the day.

ISAW

5uspect wrote: »

I also came across these numbers for the US.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/USCCB_Yearly_Data_on_Accused_Priests.htm
Percentages here:
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/data.htm#accused_priests

again this 5.6% is a twisting of the John Jay Report
If you actually go to the primary source you will se it does not say 5.6% at all

specific analysis provided of John Jay here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78136883&postcount=3024

which speculates on the false claims of 6.5% and 4%

The unsupported 6.5% claim was originally dealt with in that thread I attempted to keep it there. I was assured the source was in this thread. It wasnt and i have yet to see it.
continually all i see is third hand analysis of Data which when you go to the original you see it didn't say that at all. Just like the way reports by Blix and others about WMD became misquoted in the media as certainty of WMD.

You have posted in this thread that you were busy writing academic papers. You therefore should be aware of academic integrity and the use of primary sources.

the claim made "allegations of sexual abuse of minors committed by 4,392 priests, including 12 bishops." is tantamount to "six million Jews accused of crimes against the Ayran Race"

Accusation is not proof of anything!
As the fr Reynolds case proves false accusation can have dire consequences.
Our justice system does not assume guilt.

Look at page 47 of the John Jay report you proffer

A report to the police resulted in an investigation in almost all cases (see Tables 3.7.1 and 3.7.2).
Of the more than 4,000 priests and deacons 217 were criminally charged (see Table 3.6.3).
and 128 convicted.
Of those it appears less than 30 were pedophile. Of that 30five accounted for about half the victims!

so you four thousand plus can be reduced by a factor of 100 in therms of convictions and by about 1000 in terms of people who are the worst of the worst pedophile offenders
you 5.6% becomes way less than one percent;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78136883&postcount=3024

when the media report over 4000 priests the actual number of pedophile convictions in the same sample is in the twenties. And this is over a period of a half century.
In the Us where there are hundreds of millions of people.

In Ireland with about four million people we get thousands of sex convictions and hundreds of child sex convictions annually. None of them in the last ten years are pedophile priests.

That does not make a single case right but it puts it in perspective and is a fair academic analysis of the primary source used.

i suggest we now deal with the other source proffered CARA

On page 8 it mentions 194 allegations against 134 Priests and deacons

On page 15 it says

Training for Clergy—There are 34,514 diocesan priests
and 13,663 deacons subject to the training requirements
of the Charter.

that is over 48,000 clergy and of them

Page 9

Members of men’s clerical or mixed religious institutes
represent approximately one third, or 14,000, of all
priests in the United States. The other two thirds comprise
29,000 diocesan priests. Permanent deacons add
another 14,000 men to the clergy population of dioceses
and eparchies. These percentages have remained
constant since 1995.

Total 57,000
It goes on to say

As illustrated in Figures 27, 28, and 29, the total
number of allegations of sexual abuse made against religious,
diocesan, and eparchial Catholic priests or deacons
in the United States in 2004 was 1,092.

that is an "accusation rate" of less than about 2%
And this again is "accusation" not conviction. and it isn't necessarily pedophile but also ephebophilia.

If you can supply a fairer academic analysis of the primary source used in relation to claims of percentages of "pedophile priests" feel free to provide it.

Please don't resort to third hand media reports.

robindch

ISAW wrote: »

The unsupported 6.5% claim was originally dealt with in that thread I attempted to keep it there. I was assured the source was in this thread. It wasnt and i have yet to see it.

Over the course of a few weeks, you spammed half the forum with repeated, intemperate demands for information to the annoyance of just about everybody. Your recent ban was lifted on Sunday and your first post sees you back here on the same topic again, posting in the same intemperate manner.

ISAW wrote: »

You have posted in this thread that you were busy writing academic papers. You therefore should be aware of academic integrity and the use of primary sources.

Not to mention accusing other posters of being dishonest.

Drop this topic. Go post about something else.

This is your first warning. It is also your final warning.

Dades

I should clarify that a warning not to reopen this particular can of worms in this thread applies to everyone.

Baiting won't be condoned, any more than questioning moderator decisions.

Delirium

Irish priest Michael Kelly flees California after guilty verdict in sexual abuse case

Bishop of Stockton Stephen Blaire has appealed to Fr Michael Kelly, a native of Ballingarry, Co Tipperary, to return and, as he put it, "see his trial through".

Recently, a civil jury in Stockton, Southern California, found unanimously that an unnamed man was molested by Michael Kelly, 62, when he was a boy.

Bishop Blaire immediately removed him from ministry saying that the priest continued to deny the allegations. Nevertheless, he said the jury verdict had to be respected.

Yesterday, the Bishop revealed that Fr Kelly had written to him telling him that he had fled to Ireland.

Sarky

Fled to Ireland? We're a safe haven for the convicted then?

qrrgprgua

ISAW wrote: »

In Ireland with about four million people we get thousands of sex convictions and hundreds of child sex convictions annually. None of them in the last ten years are pedophile priests.

ISAW great to see you back... but as you see you will never be welcome here.. even when hard facts a presented.

Ongoing scandals in Ireland.. the only thing ongoing is this thread. As you rightly said (and I also checking this with the courts) there has not been 1 single conviction of abuse in the last 10 years of abuse committed in the last 10 years by Catholic Clergy in Ireland.

It is truly sad that members of this forum are blinded by their own prejudice that they can't argue the facts with you.

Delirium

This thread isn't limited to only the scandals in Ireland.

ISAW

koth wrote: »

This thread isn't limited to only the scandals in Ireland.

But it is limited to ignoring the vast majority of scandals which exist outside religion. Indeed even though it is apparently about ALL religion, it seems to only have discussion on the Roman Catholic clergy. One is hard pressed to find any pôsts on the level of sexual abuse in atheistic religions like Buddhism for example.

Galvasean

ISAW wrote: »

. One is hard pressed to find any pôsts on the level of sexual abuse in atheistic religions like Buddhism for example.

Feel free to post them up yourself if you feel they are being underrepresented.
FWIW, there have been quite a few articles linked to about abuse in Scientology (which to the best of my knowledge is an atheistic religion).

robindch

ISAW wrote: »

[...] ignoring the vast majority of scandals which exist outside religion.

Don't want to come across to pedantically here, but the thread title is "Ongoing religious scandals" and as such, the thread is really intended to keep together all the news related to the ongoing scandals within religion.

That's really the main reason why most of the stories in this thread about ongoing scandals avoid those that don't involve religion.

Sonics2k

ISAW wrote: »

But it is limited to ignoring the vast majority of scandals which exist outside religion.

So, reading the thread title was a bit to much work or you're just looking to stir up trouble?

Cossax

qrrgprgua wrote: »

ISAW great to see you back... but as you see you will never be welcome here.. even when hard facts a presented.

Ongoing scandals in Ireland.. the only thing ongoing is this thread. As you rightly said (and I also checking this with the courts) there has not been 1 single conviction of abuse in the last 10 years of abuse committed in the last 10 years by Catholic Clergy in Ireland.

It is truly sad that members of this forum are blinded by their own prejudice that they can't argue the facts with you.

You use what I imagine is both a very convenient definition of 'ongoing' and a very narrow view of which countries this thread covers.
Abuse may not be going on and covered up by the RCC in Ireland at this very moment in time however there are still investigations into historical abuse and prosecutions ongoing in different countries.