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Ongoing religious scandals

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    #992
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ISAW wrote: »
    - a bit like the evidence proving 6.5% of convicted pedophiles being priests -you didnt produce that and the evidence about 4% of pedophiles being priests -didnt produce that.
    Pursuant to this warning some hours ago, you are now banned from A+A for one week. Your next repetition of the same issue, in the same tiresome, monomaniacal manner, will see you banned permanently.


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    #993
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    ISAW wrote: »
    I agree.
    and the Irish church rather than go into vcourt set up their own compensationsystem whiuch
    1. dint require proof and just asked the victims to tell them their stories
    2. Had five levels of abuse
    3. awarded quicker thzan state system
    4. awarded higher levels of compensation in comparison to state awards in the UK or australia. Not forgetting these higher levels are with a lower indeed zero standard f proof.
    5. Brought in vetting procedures for seminarians and new reporting procedures and child protection procedures . In comparison the charity "one in four" only brought in manditory reporting of abuse last year. the church has it for over ten years.

    It isnt by any means perfect but it shows the church is acting faster than the state.
    What is this compensation system that was set up by the church?
    I'm only aware of the rirb but that was set up by the state under the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002.


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    #994
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    robindch wrote: »
    Pursuant to this warning some hours ago, you are now banned from A+A for one week. Your next repetition of the same issue, in the same tiresome, monomaniacal manner, will see you banned permanently.


    ISAW... I see they can't argue the facts...:) so they ban you.

    Regarding "tiresome, monomaniacal manner" i don't think its just isaw who can be acused of this.


    Ongoing religious scandals...... Can anyone name one single abuse case in ireland commited in the last 10 years.... Abuse commited since 2000 in ireland? Any abusd?


    If there hasn't, how can it be ongoing??.?.?............"


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    #995
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    robindch wrote: »
    Pursuant to this warning some hours ago, you are now banned from A+A for one week. Your next repetition of the same issue, in the same tiresome, monomaniacal manner, will see you banned permanently.


    ISAW... I see they can't argue the facts...:) so they ban you.

    Regarding "tiresome, monomaniacal manner" i don't think its just isaw who can be acused of this.


    Ongoing religious scandals...... Can anyone name one single abuse case in ireland commited in the last 10 years.... Abuse commited since 2000 in ireland? Any abusd?


    If there hasn't, how can it be ongoing??.?.?............"

    have all clergy who have engaged in child abuse been defrocked and prosecuted for their crimes?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #996
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    koth wrote: »
    have all clergy who have engaged in child abuse been defrocked and prosecuted for their crimes?

    Those found guilty have.


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    #997
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    koth wrote: »
    have all clergy who have engaged in child abuse been defrocked and prosecuted for their crimes?

    Those found guilty have.

    That doesn't answer my question. The answer is no btw, this is why there are still ongoing religious scandals.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #998
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    koth wrote: »
    That doesn't answer my question. The answer is no btw, this is why there are still ongoing religious scandals.

    Really... So we should risregard the due process of the law? If a priest is accused he is investigated and prosecuted.... Until he is found guilty he is innocent.


    So has there been one single case reported of abuse commited in the last 10 years.........?????? Just one? By a priest in ireland


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    #999
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ISAW wrote: »
    Hmmm deja vu
    - a bit like the evidence proving 6.5% of convicted pedophiles being priests -you didnt produce that and the evidence about 4% of pedophiles being priests -didnt produce that.

    Now you claim the Pope had a policy of not reporting -also not produced.

    When does "no evidence of dragons" become "no dragons"?

    AFAIK before he even became Pôpe Ratzinger updated and clarified reporting procedures
    I think it was back around 2001. But the procedures he clarified were already there in the canon law of the 1980s. - I reproduce the references to it above.


    .
    Canon law by the way is NOT criminal law. the church deals wit its own business - whether or not it allows a priest to operate as a priest. the state has no hand act or part in that. Nor does church try local crimes. That is for the local law in that state.

    It is another part of the myth of "Vatican collusion to quash criminal prosecution".
    I suppose around the same time that no evidence of God becomes no God


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    #1000
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    koth wrote: »
    That doesn't answer my question. The answer is no btw, this is why there are still ongoing religious scandals.

    Really... So we should risregard the due process of the law? If a priest is accused he is investigated and prosecuted.... Until he is found guilty he is innocent.


    So has there been one single case reported of abuse commited in the last 10 years.........?????? Just one? By a priest in ireland

    I never said that any accused priest should be denied due process.

    I asked if all priests that engaged in child abuse had been defrocked and prosecuted.

    But I can see why you'd wish to deflect attention away from that subject. Especially as I've never heard of the Vatican defrocking a priest found guilty of child abuse. Feel free to post links to any information that proves otherwise.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1001
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Really... So we should risregard the due process of the law? If a priest is accused he is investigated and prosecuted.... Until he is found guilty he is innocent.


    So has there been one single case reported of abuse commited in the last 10 years.........?????? Just one? By a priest in ireland

    People keep hiding behing this statistic all the time and it is quite meaningless.

    There are accusations of child abuse coming to light all the time , at the moment we have the one in Cork and the nun in Donegal ( I think), but the answer trotted out every time is that they and all others date back more than ten years.

    But that has always been the case with child abuse when the victim does not report the crime until they are in their 20's or 30's or later or even never. The nature of the crime means there is always a timelag on reporting.


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    #1002
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    People keep hiding behing this statistic all the time and it is quite meaningless.

    There are accusations of child abuse coming to light all the time , at the moment we have the one in Cork and the nun in Donegal ( I think), but the answer trotted out every time is that they and all others date back more than ten years.

    But that has always been the case with child abuse when the victim does not report the crime until they are in their 20's or 30's or later or even never. The nature of the crime means there is always a timelag on reporting.

    You think.... I think.... Lets deal in facts. The ireland of 2012 is not the irleand of 1952. If priests or nuns are abusing today where is it being done becuase they are not getting unsupervised access to kids.. So if measures are in place and not one single case of abuse has been reported commited in the last ten years why do you "think" there is abuse. Parents are far more aware today of abuse and ocasions for abuse... Sadly most abuse today is by family members and has nothing to di with the church.

    So if there has been abuse in the last 10 years show it... There hasn't


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    #1003
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    You think.... I think.... Lets deal in facts. The ireland of 2012 is not the irleand of 1952. If priests or nuns are abusing today where is it being done becuase they are not getting unsupervised access to kids.. So if measures are in place and not one single case of abuse has been reported commited in the last ten years why do you "think" there is abuse. Parents are far more aware today of abuse and ocasions for abuse... Sadly most abuse today is by family members and has nothing to di with the church.

    So if there has been abuse in the last 10 years show it... There hasn't

    I have no doubt that you are right in most of what you are saying and I am not arguing against that. But the way it is expresssed seems to indicate a mindset that there are no longer abusers or potential abusers within the church. I think that is a mistaken belief .The controls have undoubtenly made the potential for abuse much less and will continue to do so into the future. Particularly the whole vetting procedure before someone can now enter a religious order. But until members have undergone those vetting procedures we can't be sure.

    On your point about the church having nothing to do with abuse in wider society , don't be so quick to distance that institution when you take into account the statistics on abusers being originally abused themselves - what kind of a timebomb has all that clerical unleashed on society I wonder ?


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    #1004
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    So if there has been abuse in the last 10 years show it... There hasn't

    qrrgprgua = David Quinn?


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    #1005
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    On the 6.5% statistic, it most likely comes from the Report by Commission of Investigation into Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin:
    http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504

    In part 2 (pdf, page 172) a statistically representative sample of 46 priests, of 172 under suspicion, from the 29 year period the report was concerned with, was taken.

    Wikipedia tells me that the Archdiocese of Dublin is serviced by around 700 priests.

    So 46 priests out of 700 is 6.5%.


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    #1006
    F12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭F12


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Those found guilty have.

    I'm just wondering exactly how many of these priests and religious have the Church excommunicated? Or is child rape not on the list of things that give rise to excommunication?

    Also, does the fact that a priest had raped or abused a child mean that he was outside God's saving grace from that instance onwards, thus leading to the negating of all baptisms, eucharistic rites (communion), anointing, hearing of confession etc, from then on? Surely once you foul your priestly office by performing such evil actions in that office, as priest, your powers as vested in you by virtue of that missionary and holy position, become null and void?
    If this is the case, then there must be thousands of Catholics out there who are not actually baptised in Jesus, not married as Catholics (actually living in a state of fornication), and also unforgiven by way of the rites of confession, and will therefore go straight to Hell for being outside God's grace? That would be such a terrible tragedy, wouldn't it?


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    #1007
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    marienbad wrote: »
    I have no doubt that you are right in most of what you are saying and I am not arguing against that. But the way it is expresssed seems to indicate a mindset that there are no longer abusers or potential abusers within the church.


    There are abusers and potential abusers EVERYWHERE!!. as long as man exists.. good and bad will also exist. The Church failed miserably to deal with abuse. Sexual abuse, esp of kids, goes against everything that my faith means. Christ was very clear what would happen to anyone who harmed an innocent child. The biggest failing was not to deal with the crimes as crimes and not treat them as personal failures that could be corrected with counselling and therapy allowing the priest to return to ministry and abuse again.. it was completely wrong.

    That said, those who abused do not represent my faith, they did not live their faith. And today the rules put in place for child protection hopefully will stamp out these crimes. The 90 odd seminarians who are in training today have a very clear path to follow as regards ministering to child, always with an adult present, Kids can never be invited without an adult to a priests house, no kids alone in sacristy without an adult. etc..etc.. Any priest who is accused of abuse HAS to be reportd to the gards and HAS to be removed from all ministry. If a Bishop knows about abuse and does not report it, he is committing a serious crime and he knows who will be prosecuted and sentenced.

    The fact that not one single case of fresh abuse has been reported in the last 10 years in Ireland goes to show just that. Parents are far more aware today that every of abuse. And so are priests who know they need to be transparent in their dealings with minors.


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    #1008
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    F12 wrote: »
    I'm just wondering exactly how many of these priests and religious have the Church excommunicated? Or is child rape not on the list of things that give rise to excommunication?

    Also, does the fact that a priest had raped or abused a child mean that he was outside God's saving grace from that instance onwards, thus leading to the negating of all baptisms, eucharistic rites (communion), anointing, hearing of confession etc, from then on? Surely once you foul your priestly office by performing such evil actions in that office, as priest, your powers as vested in you by virtue of that missionary and holy position, become null and void?
    If this is the case, then there must be thousands of Catholics out there who are not actually baptised in Jesus, not married as Catholics (actually living in a state of fornication), and also unforgiven by way of the rites of confession, and will therefore go straight to Hell for being outside God's grace? That would be such a terrible tragedy, wouldn't it?



    Extremely interesting post..

    Baptism can be performed by anyone. And a person is not baptised in the name of the person baptising but in the Name of Father/Son/Holy Spirit. A Priests confesses in persona Christi.

    If an abuser is found guilty he is removed from Ministry, if he does not repent he is excommunicated defacto.

    as regards to eternal salvation..I can't judge what happens afterwards.


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    #1009
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    The fact that not one single case of fresh abuse has been reported in the last 10 years in Ireland goes to show just that. Parents are far more aware today that every of abuse. And so are priests who know they need to be transparent in their dealings with minors.

    I take you haven't read the Cloyne Report, which documents the activities of 11 priests until as recently as 2009.


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    #1010
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    5uspect wrote: »
    I take you haven't read the Cloyne Report, which documents the activities of 11 priests until as recently as 2009.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0713/cloyne_report.pdf


    Name one case of abuse commited in the last 10 years from the Cloyne report.


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    #1011
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0713/cloyne_report.pdf


    Name one case of abuse commited in the last 10 years from the Cloyne report.

    Make you mind up. First you say there are no new cases reported in the last 10 years, and now you're asking for abuse committed in the last decade.


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    #1012
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0713/cloyne_report.pdf


    Name one case of abuse commited in the last 10 years from the Cloyne report.

    So, are you saying we should congratulate people for not molesting children (that we know about) in the last 10 years?


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    #1013
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Never mind that the Vatican now admit over 4000 cases of abuse in last decade:
    http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=13239


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    #1014
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    5uspect wrote: »
    On the 6.5% statistic, it most likely comes from the Report by Commission of Investigation into Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin:
    http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09000504

    In part 2 (pdf, page 172) a statistically representative sample of 46 priests, of 172 under suspicion, from the 29 year period the report was concerned with, was taken.

    Wikipedia tells me that the Archdiocese of Dublin is serviced by around 700 priests.

    So 46 priests out of 700 is 6.5%.

    Aw man, where have you been the last month? :)


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    #1015
    F12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭F12


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Extremely interesting post..

    Baptism can be performed by anyone. And a person is not baptised in the name of the person baptising but in the Name of Father/Son/Holy Spirit. A Priests confesses in persona Christi.

    If an abuser is found guilty he is removed from Ministry, if he does not repent he is excommunicated defacto.

    as regards to eternal salvation..I can't judge what happens afterwards.

    Surely you are not saying that they can possibly repent from raping a child and they are 'clean' again?
    What about the eucharist, confession, etc if they are not removed from ministry or even detected so that they can be made repent? Surely God would not allow his grace to be transmitted through a sexual deviant, as he would know, but if he did know then the sacrament could not be valid for the person believing that they were receiving it, as they would not know but would be living in a perpetual and increasing state of sin?


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    #1016
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Aw man, where have you been the last month? :)

    Lets see... I've been busy publishing in prestigious scientific journals, reviewing papers, sorting out a new job (back in Ireland, yay!) and organizing my summer trip to Stanford.


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    #1017
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    5uspect wrote: »
    Lets see... I've been busy publishing in prestigious scientific journals, reviewing papers, sorting out a new job (back in Ireland, yay!) and organizing my summer trip to Stanford.

    Well welcome back Mr Fancypants. ;)

    MrP


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    #1018
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    F12 wrote: »
    Surely you are not saying that they can possibly repent from raping a child and they are 'clean' again?
    What about the eucharist, confession, etc if they are not removed from ministry or even detected so that they can be made repent? Surely God would not allow his grace to be transmitted through a sexual deviant, as he would know, but if he did know then the sacrament could not be valid for the person believing that they were receiving it, as they would not know but would be living in a perpetual and increasing state of sin?

    I know, and i asked all the above questions many times. A call to the priesthood is a call to serve God, a priest forgives sins, says mass in persona christi, he is the face of christ, my relationship is with God and not the priest. Our faith is not in man its in God. Its obviously better if you are going to be a priest that you be one 100%... I know of one who was a real devil, only found out after he died, made me question my faith to the core. But i have known others who are saints give everything to help others. there has always been good and bad priests, good and bad in every walk of life. I am catholic because i believe in Christ.


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    #1019
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    I am catholic because i believe in Christ.

    Why catholic specifically? Why not one of the many other forms of Christianity?
    There is a lot more to being Catholic than simply believing in Christ.


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    #1020
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    I am catholic because i believe in Christ.

    What, exactly, do you believe about Christ?


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    #1021
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Aw man, where have you been the last month? :)

    Does this mean ISAW will piss off home now .... ?


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