Exorcism in Christianity

Amtmann

Although I don't believe in the supernatural, I'm nevertheless very interested in other people's beliefs about it.

I read this article today:

ARE you afraid of the Devil? The world's most famous exorcist levels his gaze at me and then smiles.

"No, it is he who is afraid of me. I work in the name of the Lord. Poor Satan."

Poor Satan?

"Oh yes. The Evil One shouts and makes noises, but we are made in God's image, we have the Holy Trinity on our side. There is no need to be afraid of the Devil unless we give in to his temptations."

We are in the infirmary of the Society of St Paul, the order of Fr Gabriele Amorth, in the shadow of St Paul's Basilica, Rome. The Vatican's chief exorcist was taken to hospital last autumn with a blood infection and is now convalescing -- "they found nothing serious". Perhaps it was the Devil who laid him low? "Oh no -- just an illness. He has more serious evil to perform."

Fr Amorth made headlines this week by suggesting that those who had "given in to Satan's temptations" included paedophile priests and even some cardinals and bishops who paid only lip service to the Gospel.

The growing crisis over the clerical sex abuse now engulfing Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican, he said, was the work of Satan, who had even "infiltrated the Vatican corridors".

Is the sex abuse crisis really due to the Devil?

"Oh yes. All evil is due to the intervention of the Devil, including paedophilia."

And the Vatican? "Legions of demons have lodged there. The majority of those in the Vatican do good work. But Pope Paul VI talked about the 'smoke of Satan' infiltrating the Vatican as long ago as 1972. Satan sets out to damage the leadership of the church -- and of politics, industry and sport, for that matter."

And although all manner of incidents, scandals and misdemeanours in Italy and abroad leap to mind as potential evidence of diabolical intervention, he declines to give examples.

Fr Amorth -- or Don Gabriele, as he is universally known -- has just published 'The Memoirs of an Exorcist', a book of interviews with Marco Tosatti, the Vatican journalist. In a style that is somewhat reminiscent of a medieval chronicle, he describes his often hair-raising experiences over the past quarter of a century in the front line against the Evil One and his minions.

Now nearly 85 and honorary president of the International Association of Exorcists, he fought for the Resistance in the Second World War, took a law degree but then entered the church. He began conducting exorcisms shortly after his ordination 60 years ago; in 1986 he was appointed by Cardinal Ugo Poletti, then the Vicar of Rome, as assistant to Father Candido Amantini, the chief exorcist, eventually succeeding him.

Now frail, he becomes animated as he describes his life-long struggle with demons who possess the bodies of their victims, at one stage spreading his arms wide to show me the length of one particular demon occupying the body of a woman he had "liberated".

He talks to Lucifer and his demons, he says, and knows their names. On the writing table in his room he keeps pictures of the Virgin Mary and Jesus, "who came into the world to fight the Devil and return us to God". But the modern world, he says, has "given in to the Evil One. You see it in the lack of faith, the empty churches, the collapse of the family."

"Compare the world of today to when I was a boy in Modena: families and parish communities were strong, women did not go out to work. Now they have to because one income cannot support a family. So young people are left to their own devices, they get into bad company, they have lost their roots and replaced them with the negative influences of television and the internet, or the occult."

What about those who believe in neither God nor Satan? "The Devil is only too happy to take advantage of those who do not believe in his existence. It means he can operate with complete freedom, even inside the church. He exploits lust and power."

The Devil tries to reach all of us, Fr Amorth adds, and "the possessed are those who listen to him most. Mind you, they are a minority. If you read my book you might get the impression the whole world is possessed, but I am describing a small number of cases, comparatively speaking."

His claim to have carried out 70,000 exorcisms seems incredible. "But I was talking about the number of exorcisms, not the number of people exorcised. You often have to exorcise someone dozens, even hundreds, of times, and an exorcism ritual can take anything from a few minutes to several hours."

Exorcism can only be done with the approval of the local bishop, usually after medical or psychiatric tests show no rational explanation for the symptoms, which include vomiting, violent headaches and stomach cramps but also superhuman strength, fits and extreme aversion to holy symbols.

He is adept, he says, at distinguishing hysterics from the real thing. There are more women than men among the possessed, "but we don't know why. There are various explanations: Satan taking revenge on the Virgin Mary, or using women as a means of reaching men. None of them is convincing."

The possessed talk in languages they do not know, including ancient tongues such as Aramaic, the language of Christ. "Sometimes the language is incomprehensible. I once asked a demon what it was and he said, 'Satanic language'."

The victims often react so violently to the ritual of prayers, incantations, holy water and the sign of the cross that they have to be held or tied down while the priest touches the possessed person with his stole and places his hand on his or her head.

In many cases, he says, they vomit objects such as nails or glass. Fr Amorth has a collection weighing 2kg. "You get used to being vomited over. I once performed an exorcism on a woman who hit me in the face with a stream of vomit from the other side of the room -- physically impossible."

The Devil, he says, is humourless but does sometimes play tricks. He and his demons speak through the victim, sometimes using their normal voice but sometimes in hoarse, raucous tones. He imitates the unnerving low growl for me. But they are not visible, any more than angels are.

"Angels exist -- they are pure spirit. We all have guardian angels. Demons are, of course, fallen angels who rebelled against God; that is why they are so intelligent, and so arrogant."

Fr Amorth has no designated successor, and complains that even now the church hierarchy does not take exorcism -- or the Devil -- seriously enough. But "the Lord has made use of me" and his example has inspired many other priests -- as did the 1973 film 'The Exorcist', which, although "exaggerated", was "substantially true".

At his age does he still have the stomach for the battle with Satan? "Oh yes. I have work to do." (© The Times, London)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-rest-for-the-wicked-until--chief-exorcists-work-is-done-2098355.html

I found this fascinating. Would almost all Christians generally share Fr Amorth's views and beliefs regarding evil spirits?

He is on record as stating categorically that both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were possessed, and that all that followed was the work of the devil. The same, he says, goes for paedophile priests.

Theologically, would most Christians concur with this? Or do many Christians alternatively believe that deeds characterized as evil can be the work not of demons influencing people, but simply the product of a deranged personality?

Stephentlig

I cant really respond now as such, but this area refers to Roman Catholism only.

I'm doing my garden at the moment, but later will respond when I get some time.

I reccommend you read matt baglios ''the rite'' its the story of a journalist who follows a priest on his journey to become an excorcist in the Catholic Church.

rugbyman

you asked your question of Christians, i am not one but i do find this very interesting, a little short of fascination.

while i can find nothing to suggest there is a God, i would not absolutely reject demons, as perhaps a person such as me might not have rejected the suggestion that there would someday be electicity ,or x rays or aspirin or nuclear had i lived two hundred years ago.

regards Rugbyman

JimiTime

I'm a Christian and not a Roman catholic. I can honestly say, I don't know. I have never witnessed demon posession, but biblically speaking its definately something that occurred.

One of my big hatreads is the witchcrafty trinketry that is promoted in the RCC. 'Holy' medals, 'Holy' pictures, 'Holy' trinkets such as crucifixes etc. Its more akin to superstition and rabbits feet, so I'm dubious about this whole, 'Satan is afraid of such trinketry'. Similarly, all these 'rites' etc have no basis in the bible. Demons were exorcised, biblically, with the power of the Word. No need for rabbits feet, or any pre-learned 'performance'. A man/woman with the Holy spirit can command a Demon out. Its Christs power, not some pre-concieved performance, so I would not be convinced, however sincere, about the aforementioned priests conclusions.

Stephentlig

Acts 19:11-12 - Paul's handkerchiefs healed the sick and those with unclean spirits. This is another example of physical things effecting physical and spiritual cures.

Acts:19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. 12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of them.

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha's bones bring a man back to life. The saints' bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.

2 Kings:13:21 And some that were burying a man, saw the rovers, and cast the body into the sepulchre of Eliseus. And when it had touched the bones of Eliseus, the man came to life, and stood upon his feet.

Jimis idea that God does not use physical things to effect the supernatural is clearly not biblical.

anyhow, I dont think I have much to comment on except that there are different forms of possession, and Matt baglios book really will be more informative than I could ever be, so if you really are interested, you should buy the book and give it a good reading.

One has to remember though that the devil is not to blame for our sins, we are too blame, but he is to blame for the influence under which the sin was done.

This can be seen at beginning of the fall, Adam and Eve were banished from the garden of eden because they blamed the devil and refused to accept responability for their own actions. he was the influence but ultimately they commited the act.

So please do read the book and that way you will learn more about it, there is a lot more to excorcism than one thinks.

Pax Christi
Stephen

JimiTime

Stephentlig wrote: »

Jimis idea that God does not use physical things to effect the supernatural is clearly not biblical.

Sorry OP, just to make it clear that the above has nothing to do with what I said. No point in getting into it and derailing your thread, so I'll just clear that up.

strobe

JimiTime wrote: »

Demons were exorcised, biblically, with the power of the Word. No need for rabbits feet,

Whoa. I read that as rabbis feet at first, totally creeped me out lol.

neuro-praxis

rugbyman wrote: »

you asked your question of Christians, i am not one but i do find this very interesting, a little short of fascination.

while i can find nothing to suggest there is a God, i would not absolutely reject demons, as perhaps a person such as me might not have rejected the suggestion that there would someday be electicity ,or x rays or aspirin or nuclear had i lived two hundred years ago.

regards Rugbyman

Electricity, x-rays and nuclear forces are all naturally occurring and existed 200 years ago. As did fallen angels and the God that must be posited for the concept of "demon" to mean anything.

Maybe a demon of idiocy has possessed you? :pac:

faceman

I remember when that articule was first published, it was spun that he was trying to apportion blame to satan rather than the individuals who perpertrated the crimes in the Church. He's an eldery man now and I assumed his comments to be more symbolic than proposed factual.

Im involved in a the production of an Irish horror film at the mo that is about a case of possession in Ireland. The team met with Ireland's leading exorcist (although he is 1 of 2 exorcists in Ireland), Fr Pat Collins as part of the research for the movie. A very unassuming man. He lectures regularly around Ireland and abroad. He had frightening tales, so much so that our director has started to return to Mass.

The Bishop sends him, in a very low key fashion, to treat potentials victims of exorcisms. He only gets involved after doctors have exhausted their treatments and speaks with the medical people before taking any action. He said there are a number of simple tests they perform to see if someone is possessed, one being filling a non transparent bag with items and the possessed individual can tell you what is in it.

He was asked about real similarities to the Exorcist movie which he said was obviously not a true reflection of real life. He didnt mention any bizarre vomiting sessions but did say that the victim speaking other languages, speaking in a different voice, psychic abilities were the similarities.

Ultimately he said the only true weapon against possession and evil is prayer.

Was definitely something to think about.

homer911

faceman wrote: »

I remember when that articule was first published, it was spun that he was trying to apportion blame to satan rather than the individuals who perpertrated the crimes in the Church. He's an eldery man now and I assumed his comments to be more symbolic than proposed factual.

Im involved in a the production of an Irish horror film at the mo that is about a case of possession in Ireland. The team met with Ireland's leading exorcist (although he is 1 of 2 exorcists in Ireland), Fr Pat Collins as part of the research for the movie. A very unassuming man. He lectures regularly around Ireland and abroad. He had frightening tales, so much so that our director has started to return to Mass.

The Bishop sends him, in a very low key fashion, to treat potentials victims of exorcisms. He only gets involved after doctors have exhausted their treatments and speaks with the medical people before taking any action. He said there are a number of simple tests they perform to see if someone is possessed, one being filling a non transparent bag with items and the possessed individual can tell you what is in it.

He was asked about real similarities to the Exorcist movie which he said was obviously not a true reflection of real life. He didnt mention any bizarre vomiting sessions but did say that the victim speaking other languages, speaking in a different voice, psychic abilities were the similarities.

Ultimately he said the only true weapon against possession and evil is prayer.

Was definitely something to think about.

Maybe you should do a factual programme for TV?

Portia 27

I am fascinated to read all the threads on this exorcism Business...££££

I am a survivor of the rite of exorcism by the Catholic cult many years ago.

It is child abuse at its extreme and is a crime here in UK.

The reason it is not recorded is because of what the so called men of god do to the human children and adults.

I found out that the reason I was exorcied was because I was deemed a witch child, too strong willed FOR A GIRL age 4.

It is physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual rape of the soul.

There is the pope appointing hundreds of new exorcists to deal with the evil?

We seem to be returning to the dark ages and the old nquisitions and witch trials.

Portia 27

homer911 wrote: »

Maybe you should do a factual programme for TV?

a non transparent bag with items and the possessed individual can tell you what is in it.

Uri Geller does this, so is he possessed too.?

Portia 27

http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=20621

This program examines the covert Catholic ritual of exorcism in Italy



where half a million people are turning to exorcists for help each year.



Pope Benedict XVI recently hailed the importance of the rite and now for the first time the Vatican is backing a course to prepare a new generation of exorcists.
This film shows rare footage of exorcisms and sufferers in states of trance and altered states.
It goes beyond the extreme drama of the ritual and observes the daily life of an exorcist, seeking to understand the rite and what lies behind its revival.

It also examines the difference between psychological illnesses, and perceived "demonic possession".
Compass: Return of the Exorcists - ABC-TV1, 10.20pm Sunday, April 18

Portia 27

Exorcism
Since the construction of the Santuario de los Benditos Almas del Santo Purgatorio (Sanctuary of the Blessed Souls of Holy Purgatory) last February, the basilica houses a brand-new chapel dedicated to exorcisms. It is the first of its kind in the world's second largest Catholic country (90 percent of the population is Catholic).
Exorcism is a very common phenomenon in Mexico. On any given day, between five to ten exorcisms are performed in the country. Many dioceses have several priests that have been authorised by their bishop to perform the ritual. The Diocese of Querétaro employs as many as six.


http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/mexican-chapel-bad-news-demons

Great money Earner.!!!!

You have to give the men of god credit for their money making scams, from guilt trips to SIN and penance, baptism, communiom, confirmation, marriage, and DEATH.

They got it all covered and us idiots pay for it all.

santing

Stephentlig wrote: »

Acts:19:11 And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles.

Maybe we should emphasize that these were "more than common" or "extraordinary." Holy water just flows just out of a wall in Knock - I even cleaned my car with it. Not so "extraordinary."

Stephentlig wrote: »

2 Kings 13:21 - Elisha's bones bring a man back to life. The saints' bones are often kept beneath the altars of Catholic churches and have brought about supernatural cures throughout the Christian age.

So one "extraordinary" example versus millions of bones now a days. We take the exception and make it our rule? When the Israelites worshipped the Bronze Snake - which was instrumental in healing thousands of people (!) and which is a beatiful type of the Lord Jesus, the Bronze Snake was destroyed.

Stephentlig wrote: »

Jimis idea that God does not use physical things to effect the supernatural is clearly not biblical.

I think Jimis idea is closer to being Biblical, God being God does things we do not understand or expect, but the guidelines and rules indicate not to rely on the physical for spiritual effects...

We don't see a lot of demon-possession in Ireland in Ireland as such persons are classified differently. But there is a lot of superstition in Ireland (more superstition than religion I would say), which goes hand in hand with demon-oppression and demon possession. With the promotion of new religions from the East and the resurrection of Druidical worship, there are more people who are willing victims in our days.

Portia 27

santing wrote: »

Maybe we should emphasize that these were "more than common" or "extraordinary." Holy water just flows just out of a wall in Knock - I even cleaned my car with it. Not so "extraordinary."

So one "extraordinary" example versus millions of bones now a days. We take the exception and make it our rule? When the Israelites worshipped the Bronze Snake - which was instrumental in healing thousands of people (!) and which is a beatiful type of the Lord Jesus, the Bronze Snake was destroyed.

I think Jimis idea is closer to being Biblical, God being God does things we do not understand or expect, but the guidelines and rules indicate not to rely on the physical for spiritual effects...

We don't see a lot of demon-possession in Ireland in Ireland as such persons are classified differently. But there is a lot of superstition in Ireland (more superstition than religion I would say), which goes hand in hand with demon-oppression and demon possession. With the promotion of new religions from the East and the resurrection of Druidical worship, there are more people who are willing victims in our days.

The Catholic church built all its churches on ancient "pagan" sites. If paganism was so evil, why did they do it?

The religions are all patriarchal in nature, hierarchial in nature and destructive to any society.

Yes, 1995 and a judge ordered Buddhists out of ireland, calling them barbarians?

PDN

Portia 27 wrote: »

Yes, 1995 and a judge ordered Buddhists out of ireland, calling them barbarians?

That's an extraordinary claim. Got a source or link for it?

Portia 27

PDN wrote: »

That's an extraordinary claim. Got a source or link for it?

Yes, I can give you day and date .

Place Co Meath.

Family Court ..in camera rule, so cannot give names

Same as the Catholic church redress board- we are gagged from telling the whole truth- and we go to prison.

I almost got jail for saying I was going to Strasbourg.??

I would love to invite these state service providers onto RTE and say WHY?

Portia 27

PDN wrote: »

That's an extraordinary claim. Got a source or link for it?

I sent you PM with all details.

ISAW

Portia 27 wrote: »

Yes, I can give you day and date .

Place Co Meath.

Family Court ..in camera rule, so cannot give names

first of all you CAN give names but someone might sue you for invasion of privacy.

But you CAN give the date and time of the court case and the name of the Preciding Judge and solicitors present without any legal problems.

Same as the Catholic church redress board- we are gagged from telling the whole truth- and we go to prison.

Under what law? What judge issued a gagging order? The reason for "in camera" sessions id to preserve the private identity of the child. If you are claiming you were the child and are not a child now then you can say your own story. You would need to be carefull because if you libel someone by saying something which damages someone else and is not true or which you can't prove then you are in problems.

The redress board didn't gag people from telling the truth. The reason it was set up was to fast track legal claims. the deal was people came to them lodged the claim got it and didn't revisit the issue. They could revisit the issue but then the claim they got would have to be returned and they would have a long drawn out legal case probably lose and have a lot of legal bills to pay.

I almost got jail for saying I was going to Strasbourg.??

What do you mean by this. You wanted to visit the place or you wanted to appeal a decision to a court in Strasbourg. You can't be jailed for that. If you said to a judge "do as I want or ill appeal you to Strasbourg" then you might well get jailed for contempt.

I fail to see what is the point you are getting at.

What has your opinion on exorcisms or Bhuddism or church property got to do with it?

ISAW

Portia 27 wrote: »

I sent you PM with all details.

i don't understand either.
Would you send the same PM to me please?

Portia 27

ISAW wrote: »

first of all you CAN give names but someone might sue you for invasion of privacy.

But you CAN give the date and time of the court case and the name of the Preciding Judge and solicitors present without any legal problems.



Under what law? What judge issued a gagging order? The reason for "in camera" sessions id to preserve the private identity of the child. If you are claiming you were the child and are not a child now then you can say your own story. You would need to be carefull because if you libel someone by saying something which damages someone else and is not true or which you can't prove then you are in problems.

The redress board didn't gag people from telling the truth. The reason it was set up was to fast track legal claims. the deal was people came to them lodged the claim got it and didn't revisit the issue. They could revisit the issue but then the claim they got would have to be returned and they would have a long drawn out legal case probably lose and have a lot of legal bills to pay.



What do you mean by this. You wanted to visit the place or you wanted to appeal a decision to a court in Strasbourg. You can't be jailed for that. If you said to a judge "do as I want or ill appeal you to Strasbourg" then you might well get jailed for contempt.

I fail to see what is the point you are getting at.

What has your opinion on exorcisms or Bhuddism or church property got to do with it?

Under what law? What judge issued a gagging order? The reason for "in camera" sessions id to preserve the private identity of the child.

The reason stated for the in camera rule is privacy for the child, but when you work in this business for long enough, you learn it is a LIE. It is to protect the corruption and collusion involved.

Family law district court hearings are not recorded, hence judges etc can say what they like.

This judge got annoyed, because he knew he had done wrong under Human rights issues and if I went to Strasbourg with a written judgment, he was in trouble. I do have letter typed by solicitor though citing the disapproval of the judge of Buddhists and Europeans.

The abused in the redress board will be fined and jailed if they speak to others, which is a breach of their human rights and also the damage that gagging orders do to the human being psychologically, emotionally, spiritually and physically is enormous.
I can prove that from a specialist in London, whom I went to to have my jaws "released" etc.
There is a term used "legal abuse syndrome" when justice is not seen to be done and the human being is unable to rationalise it.

Portia 27

ISAW wrote: »

i don't understand either.
Would you send the same PM to me please?

Sent to you also.

Portia 27

ISAW wrote: »

first of all you CAN give names but someone might sue you for invasion of privacy.

But you CAN give the date and time of the court case and the name of the Preciding Judge and solicitors present without any legal problems.



Under what law? What judge issued a gagging order? The reason for "in camera" sessions id to preserve the private identity of the child. If you are claiming you were the child and are not a child now then you can say your own story. You would need to be carefull because if you libel someone by saying something which damages someone else and is not true or which you can't prove then you are in problems.

The redress board didn't gag people from telling the truth. The reason it was set up was to fast track legal claims. the deal was people came to them lodged the claim got it and didn't revisit the issue. They could revisit the issue but then the claim they got would have to be returned and they would have a long drawn out legal case probably lose and have a lot of legal bills to pay.



What do you mean by this. You wanted to visit the place or you wanted to appeal a decision to a court in Strasbourg. You can't be jailed for that. If you said to a judge "do as I want or ill appeal you to Strasbourg" then you might well get jailed for contempt.

I fail to see what is the point you are getting at.

What has your opinion on exorcisms or Bhuddism or church property got to do with it?

From the Residential Redress Act 2002 (dealing with compensation to victims of clerical abuse)
7 (6).– A person shall not publish any information concerning an application or an award made under this Act that refers to any other person (including an applicant), relevant person or institution by name or which could reasonably lead to the identification of any other person (including an applicant), a relevant person or an institution referred to in an application made under this Act.
34.– A person who is guilty of an offence under sections 7(6) and 28(9) shall be liable–
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding €3,000 (£2,362.69) or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding €25,000 (£19,689.10) or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or both.

http://www.paddydoyle.com/aosdana-votes-unanimously-for-motion-seeking-clarification-of-residential-institutions-redress-act-2002/

Portia 27

ISAW wrote: »

first of all you CAN give names but someone might sue you for invasion of privacy.

But you CAN give the date and time of the court case and the name of the Preciding Judge and solicitors present without any legal problems.



Under what law? What judge issued a gagging order? The reason for "in camera" sessions id to preserve the private identity of the child. If you are claiming you were the child and are not a child now then you can say your own story. You would need to be carefull because if you libel someone by saying something which damages someone else and is not true or which you can't prove then you are in problems.

The redress board didn't gag people from telling the truth. The reason it was set up was to fast track legal claims. the deal was people came to them lodged the claim got it and didn't revisit the issue. They could revisit the issue but then the claim they got would have to be returned and they would have a long drawn out legal case probably lose and have a lot of legal bills to pay.



What do you mean by this. You wanted to visit the place or you wanted to appeal a decision to a court in Strasbourg. You can't be jailed for that. If you said to a judge "do as I want or ill appeal you to Strasbourg" then you might well get jailed for contempt.

I fail to see what is the point you are getting at.

What has your opinion on exorcisms or Bhuddism or church property got to do with it?

What has your opinion on exorcisms or Bhuddism or church property got to do with it?

I am a survivor of Exorcism, which means I am labelled a witch as a child and the label continues to be used in adulthood, and witches are not allowed to keep their property under Catholic thinking.

I have no idea what witches do and I have no broomstick.

I do know all women are witches in the true sense that they are all healers having both the fe and male united in them.

I happened to know a Buddhist, that was all, but that was used against me in secret court.

Looking back, it is like a scene from 16th century Europe .

Written by a court expert witness.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/96229

Portia 27

I would like to say respectfully, that this is my experience only.

I only 2 other women deemd "witches" in the secret family courts in 2007.

It has nothing to do with witchcraft though, just strong independent women get labelled witches, and the collective consciousness reacts in those reading and listening.

faceman

I've read The Rite, Hostage of the Devil and The Dark Sacrement as Im researching for a film on exorcisms. The Rite was the best of the 3 books but each book had its merits. Very interesting stuff but also quite disturbing too.

Portia 27

faceman wrote: »

I've read The Rite, Hostage of the Devil and The Dark Sacrement as Im researching for a film on exorcisms. The Rite was the best of the 3 books but each book had its merits. Very interesting stuff but also quite disturbing too.

I have not read any of these, as I have the real life experience of an exorcism.

santing

Kurt Koch was an authority in this field. On this topic his book "Between Christ and Satan" (Kurt E. Koch, 1963) is placed on google. It is worth a read.

JimiTime

Portia 27 wrote: »

I am fascinated to read all the threads on this exorcism Business...££££

I am a survivor of the rite of exorcism by the Catholic cult many years ago.

It is child abuse at its extreme and is a crime here in UK.

The reason it is not recorded is because of what the so called men of god do to the human children and adults.

I found out that the reason I was exorcied was because I was deemed a witch child, too strong willed FOR A GIRL age 4.

It is physical abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, spiritual rape of the soul.

There is the pope appointing hundreds of new exorcists to deal with the evil?

We seem to be returning to the dark ages and the old nquisitions and witch trials.

Did your parents call in a priest?

What were the symptoms of your 'strong will'?

What did they do during the exorcism that constituted Physical, mental, emotional abuse?

Also, there seems to be an implication above that money is made from exorcisms. Were your parents charged for this exorcism?

ISAW

Portia 27 wrote: »

The reason stated for the in camera rule is privacy for the child, but when you work in this business for long enough, you learn it is a LIE. It is to protect the corruption and collusion involved.

Whether or not family courts need reform is a different issue! the law is the law. It is stated it can't by definition be a lie. It may be wrong but your unsupported handwaving vague allegations about the family courts dont actually prove anything.


I am quite surprised at the cases you stated and respect the privacy of the correspondence.

This judge got annoyed, because he knew he had done wrong under Human rights issues and if I went to Strasbourg with a written judgment, he was in trouble. I do have letter typed by solicitor though citing the disapproval of the judge of Buddhists and Europeans.

I'm surprised. the solicitor should be able to make a case though.

The abused in the redress board will be fined and jailed if they speak to others, which is a breach of their human rights and also the damage that gagging orders do to the human being psychologically, emotionally, spiritually and physically is enormous.

i agree but I don't agree that they can be fined or jailed. According to what law?

I can prove that from a specialist in London, whom I went to to have my jaws "released" etc.
There is a term used "legal abuse syndrome" when justice is not seen to be done and the human being is unable to rationalise it.

You don't have to use the redress board it is just an option.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0013/index.html

Under section 28 it is an offence to disclose the discussion unless it its in order to prevent futher abuse by someone of children. If you go into the process you are not meant to discuss the details of what was mentioned. But redress of child abuse has nothing to do with Bhuddists!

Hugo Drax

Furet wrote: »

Although I don't believe in the supernatural, I'm nevertheless very interested in other people's beliefs about it.

I read this article today:




http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-rest-for-the-wicked-until--chief-exorcists-work-is-done-2098355.html

I found this fascinating. Would almost all Christians generally share Fr Amorth's views and beliefs regarding evil spirits?

He is on record as stating categorically that both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were possessed, and that all that followed was the work of the devil. The same, he says, goes for paedophile priests.

Theologically, would most Christians concur with this? Or do many Christians alternatively believe that deeds characterized as evil can be the work not of demons influencing people, but simply the product of a deranged personality?

I believe some people are just plain evil and that can be said to be the work of the Devil if you like, just as at Baptism most of us "reject Satan and all his works" there are those who plainly embrace him.

I believe saying that a serial killer for example, is mentally ill is just a cop out and allows him to abrogate responsibility.

Some people are just born bad.

It's quite clear in Catholicism that belief in God requires belief in the Devil.

Haven't you seen "The Usual Suspects"?

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist....

vodafoneproblem

Furet wrote: »

Although I don't believe in the supernatural, I'm nevertheless very interested in other people's beliefs about it.

I read this article today:




http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-rest-for-the-wicked-until--chief-exorcists-work-is-done-2098355.html

I found this fascinating. Would almost all Christians generally share Fr Amorth's views and beliefs regarding evil spirits?

He is on record as stating categorically that both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were possessed, and that all that followed was the work of the devil. The same, he says, goes for paedophile priests.

Theologically, would most Christians concur with this? Or do many Christians alternatively believe that deeds characterized as evil can be the work not of demons influencing people, but simply the product of a deranged personality?

Well, as others have said, it's specifically mentioned in the bible about Jesus driving out demons. Also, some of the Saints have mentioned having encounters. Have read some books, including the actual case that the movie "The Exorcist" was based on, called "Possessed" by Thomas Allen, on it in the past and it's scary stuff. Not bed-time reading, that's for sure! Just started The Dark Sacrament, which is about 9 seperate cases in Ireland, today. Another one I have is The Vatican's Exorcists by journalist Tracey Wilkinson which talks about Fr. Amorth among others.

I don't know if Hitler and Stalin were possessed. I tend to think of it as a rare thing that's accompanied by visible Scary Goings On but who knows. One thing's for sure, though, it's hard to read some of the books on it and come away unaffected.

faceman

Its too easy a trap to fall into to assume that really bad people are possessed when clearly they are not. Certainly the suggestion that for example Hitler was possessed, doesnt make sense to me in the context of what the devil is purportedly out to achieve with possession, to turn people away from God. Some people are just evil people.

I dont agree with many of Fr. Amorth's comments about modern day evils such as Harry Potter etc. From a catholic perspective, magic of any sort, black or white, is satanic in origin. BUt that doesnt mean that anyone who reads and enjoys Harry Potter is satanic or at risk of influence by all things nasty!

Portia 27

faceman wrote: »

Its too easy a trap to fall into to assume that really bad people are possessed when clearly they are not. Certainly the suggestion that for example Hitler was possessed, doesnt make sense to me in the context of what the devil is purportedly out to achieve with possession, to turn people away from God. Some people are just evil people.

I dont agree with many of Fr. Amorth's comments about modern day evils such as Harry Potter etc. From a catholic perspective, magic of any sort, black or white, is satanic in origin. BUt that doesnt mean that anyone who reads and enjoys Harry Potter is satanic or at risk of influence by all things nasty!

Yes, I agree- it is a cop out, an excuse used by some in society when they want to deny that some people do evil deeds.Then responsibility is displaced.

Then the excuse is used...God made me do it. Satan made me do it.

The Catholic church has a reason for that, as they do not like people to reach their full potential and wake up to the lie re good V evil, man V woman.
This is hoow Patriarchy works- divide and rule.

All those people asking why did god allow all this sufering?

God did not create all the suffering and allow us as a planet to suffer.

God did not come down off his fluffy cloud and murder fellow humans.

Satan did not come up from the fiery pits of hell and cause all the murder and abuse and torture either.

WE HUMANS DID IT TO EACH OTHER.

Portia 27

faceman wrote: »

Its too easy a trap to fall into to assume that really bad people are possessed when clearly they are not. Certainly the suggestion that for example Hitler was possessed, doesnt make sense to me in the context of what the devil is purportedly out to achieve with possession, to turn people away from God. Some people are just evil people.

I dont agree with many of Fr. Amorth's comments about modern day evils such as Harry Potter etc. From a catholic perspective, magic of any sort, black or white, is satanic in origin. BUt that doesnt mean that anyone who reads and enjoys Harry Potter is satanic or at risk of influence by all things nasty!

Ah but Exorcism is BUSINESS.£££££££££££

All he has to do is convince people that the devil is inside them and needs to be exorcised and off he goes.

Like any salesman, he seels you what you think you need, and performs open wallet surgery in doing so.

The victim would look like right idiot to ask for his or her money back, so they dont.

faceman

Eh, since when does the Catholic church demand payment for exorcisms, be they sanctioned or not??

Portia 27

faceman wrote: »

Eh, since when does the Catholic church demand payment for exorcisms, be they sanctioned or not??

In the same manner that Catholics pay for mass cards, masses for the dead, baptism etc.

Sheeple willingly give money to the men in dressses because they are so brainwashed to believe that these men do the work of god.